[3.5] Question: Eidetic Spellcaster.

[Yael]

Eidetic Spellcaster variant from Dragon #357 states that you must trade your Scribe Scroll -or- your Summon Familiar, but I've seen that it takes both.

Do you take the choice? Or it simply takes both?

[Gildedragon]

an odddity of english.
I had always read it as not gaining either of them... but rereading it I guess it is ambiguous about it.
I think it makes sense only losing one (esp. scribe scroll)

[Alleran]

Eidetic Spellcaster variant from Dragon #357 states that you must trade your Scribe Scroll -or- your Summon Familiar, but I've seen that it takes both.

Do you take the choice? Or it simply takes both?
"If you select this class feature you do not gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

It seems pretty clear to me. If you take it, you don't gain a familiar or Scribe Scroll. If it had an "either" in between the "gain" and "a" there, I'd be inclined to read it as a choice between one or the other. As it stands, my reading would be that you lose both of them.

[Crake]

"If you select this class feature you do not gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

It seems pretty clear to me. If you take it, you don't gain a familiar or Scribe Scroll. If it had an "either" in between the "gain" and "a" there, I'd be inclined to read it as a choice between one or the other. As it stands, my reading would be that you lose both of them.

I'd have to agree with Alleran, the english is quite clear about it.

[jokeaccount]

English is not my primary language but I think it goes like this:

If you select this class feature you do not gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat. -> Choose which one you lose

If you select this class feature you do not gain a familiar Nor the Scribe Scroll bonus feat. -> You lose both

[Slipperychicken]

Pretty sure you lose both. At least that's how I've played it.


To make the example a little easier, if someone says to you "you don't have my respect or my friendship", what do you think he means? You think he's saying that you can choose? Seriously, this is basic English.

[jokeaccount]

Pretty sure you lose both. At least that's how I've played it.


To make the example a little easier, if someone says to you "you don't have my respect or my friendship", what do you think he means? You think he's saying that you can choose? Seriously, this is basic English.

Are you sure he's saying it correctly though?

[Chronos]

It's not basic English. It's very advanced English, of the sort that's likely to be misunderstood by anyone but a native speaker. It might seem obvious to a native speaker that you lose both, but it's easy to see how a non-native speaker could miss that.

[Eldonauran]

Are you sure he's saying it correctly though?

He isn't saying it correctly. Nor would be the correct way to say that particular statement. Many people have this habit of writing how they would speak, a majority of the time.

From a native speaker of English, I read that as you gain neither of the two abilities. You are correct, however, that they wrote that poorly.

[Slipperychicken]

It's not basic English. It's very advanced English, of the sort that's likely to be misunderstood by anyone but a native speaker. It might seem obvious to a native speaker that you lose both, but it's easy to see how a non-native speaker could miss that.

Good point, I didn't consider how hard it could be for non-native speakers (strange, since I interact with them almost daily). I love globalization, it makes me appreciate cultural/linguistic differences, even when all I intended to do was argue about dnd :smalltongue:

[Gildedragon]

"If you select this class feature you do not gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

It seems pretty clear to me. If you take it, you don't gain a familiar or Scribe Scroll. If it had an "either" in between the "gain" and "a" there, I'd be inclined to read it as a choice between one or the other. As it stands, my reading would be that you lose both of them.

You are right: if you take it you don't gain one or the other. Problem is what does the OR mean.

"Either" would make it an exclusive or: one can only pick and loose one. Without the "either" it might be an inclusive or: one can choose to loose both of them, but one can also choose to loose only one.
Nor might have been their intent, but RAW at least 1 of those class features not to gain fulfills it.
Which I think is a fairer price for the just not having to carry stuff around option.

[fryplink]

Yea, I think you lose both, although "or" in other situations can have you chose between two things (Choose X or Y; You lose X or Y). The word "and" would have been a better choice (you'd have to slightly reword the sentence), as would "nor". It really is poorly worded.

[Namfuak]

There is not a clear answer, because it can be represented two ways:

If Eidetic Spellcaster, then not (Scribe Scroll or familiar)
Which expanded translates to
If Eidetic Spellcaster, then not Scribe Scroll and not familiar

Alternatively, it could be read as:

If Eidetic Spellcaster, then not Scribe Scroll or not familiar
Which would imply one or the other

I think the better version is the first, but it would have been better to write it as "you gain neither the scribe scroll feat nor your familiar," or "you lose your scribe scroll feat and familiar."

EDIT: If you wanted to get really silly, the most literal reading would be "not familiar or Scribe Scroll," which would mean that taking Eidetic spellcaster allows you to either not gain a familiar, or instead to gain scribe scroll as a bonus feat.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Good point, I didn't consider how hard it could be for non-native speakers (strange, since I interact with them almost daily). I love globalization, it makes me appreciate cultural/linguistic differences, even when all I intended to do was argue about dnd :smalltongue:

I think its probably because it is a natural statement from a native speaker but if you're looking at it from a direct logic perspective or a non-native perspective it can be read as only sacrificing one.

[Yael]

I asked on the first place because I'm on the Languages Faculty from the UABC on Ensenada. And I have English as a language which MUST be mastered. This matter concerns me because of two things:


Understanding the real meaning of the use of ''or'' in this case.
To continue with my build.

That's why I am asking here, because the forum is on English AND concerns D&D.

[Slipperychicken]

I asked on the first place because I'm on the Languages Faculty from the UABC on Ensenada. And I have English as a language which MUST be mastered. This matter concerns me because of two things:


Well, since mastering English is important to you, that bit should be "in the first place". Generally, we say that things are "in" places.

[Yogibear41]

Good luck, I've been speaking the english language for the majority of my 23 years of life, and I still manage to screw grammer up all the times. Commas are basically my arch-nemesis.

But then again my friend from California would remind me: "you're still pretty smart for a Mississippi boy"

[Seatbelt]

Good luck, I've been speaking the english language for the majority of my 23 years of life, and I still manage to screw grammer up all the times. Commas are basically my arch-nemesis.

But then again my friend from California would remind me: "you're still pretty smart for a Mississippi boy"


The nice thing about language is that if the person understands you, you have done language successfully. Unfortunately, this is not sufficient in an exam room. :(

[Waker]

The phrasing of that could have been better, but I choose to read it as losing both Scribe Scroll and the Familiar.

Incidentally I view someone as being proficient in a language if they can get slapped in a bar.

[Eldonauran]

I asked on the first place because I'm on the Languages Faculty from the UABC on Ensenada. And I have English as a language which MUST be mastered.

I wish you all the best of luck in mastering a language that is continually butchered on a daily basis.


This matter concerns me because of two things:


Understanding the real meaning of the use of ''or'' in this case.
To continue with my build.


1) The meaning of 'or' (in this case) should be 'nor'. The writer failed to scribe his sentence properly. Accept it was his error and move on to your second point. Any other attempt at reading into an alternate meaning lies a twisted network of what-ifs.

2) You lose both class features. Or, reworded, you gain neither of them.

[Slipperychicken]

I wish you all the best of luck in mastering a language that is continually butchered on a daily basis.


Excuse me, we like to call it dynamic and evolving, because we (the USA) are a super-powered cultural melting-pot in the center of a globalizing world, and have such a thing as "political correctness" :smalltongue:

[Yogibear41]

"political correctness" is a CR 1000 LE monster that is immune to all spells and negative effects, spontaneously casts spells as a 800th level wizard who has memorized thousands of spell books and has Damage Reduction 1000/-

Also he has 800 tentacles that crit on a 2-20 with a +800 to hit, and he ignores concealment. Each tentacle does 48d8 damage+ 500 for his strenght bonus


Also regneration 10000 overcome by nothing, and should he be split in half for any reason then he regenerates into 2 new creatures and so on and so forth.


Also on a more related note, I have been trying to find a place where I can legally buy a PDF of this particular issue for this same ACF if anyone knows where I can find one that would be great.

[Telonius]

The phrasing of that could have been better, but I choose to read it as losing both Scribe Scroll and the Familiar.

Incidentally I view someone as being proficient in a language if they can get slapped in a bar.

... and fluent if they can get slapped with a bar.

[Slipperychicken]

Also on a more related note, I have been trying to find a place where I can legally buy a PDF of this particular issue for this same ACF if anyone knows where I can find one that would be great.

Dragon Compendium should contain the issue you want.

[Yogibear41]

nope its not in the dragon compendium

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The sentence has no grammatically-sound interpretation. Also, replacing "or" with "nor" fails to fix the sentence.

"you do not gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

should be

"you gain neither a familiar nor the Scribe Scroll bonus feat"

or, more plainly,

"you lose a familiar and the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

Adding "either" after "gain" wouldn't fix the problem of vagueness. If the writer wished to convey that the wizard chooses what feature to lose (something rarely seen in D&D), he would say "you lose either a familiar or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

[Yael]

It's a shame.
On other topic, would be worth it taking the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF instead of Scribe Scroll and the Familiar if I'm planning an Ultimate Magus (Sor/Wiz) ?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It's a shame.
On other topic, would be worth it taking the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF instead of Scribe Scroll and the Familiar if I'm planning an Ultimate Magus (Sor/Wiz) ?It depends on what other features you plan to acquire. If you're going full Easy Bake Wizard (Elven Generalist, Domain Wizard, Collegiate Wizard, etc.) then Eidetic is what puts your mind at ease. If, however, your DM really doesn't care to mess with your spellbook, you can get other nice things with that familiar and feat.

[Eldonauran]

The sentence has no grammatically-sound interpretation. Also, replacing "or" with "nor" fails to fix the sentence.

"you do not gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

should be

"you gain neither a familiar nor the Scribe Scroll bonus feat"

or, more plainly,

"you lose a familiar and the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

Adding "either" after "gain" wouldn't fix the problem of vagueness. If the writer wished to convey that the wizard chooses what feature to lose (something rarely seen in D&D), he would say "you lose either a familiar or the Scribe Scroll bonus feat."

Yes, the way it is written is completely incorrect in a legalistic/technical form. As said before, the writer wrote it as if he/she were speaking. Rather poorly at that. One might have to 'trust' the words of a native speaker, since the spoken form of a language is much more fluid than the written.



Excuse me, we like to call it dynamic and evolving, because we (the USA) are a super-powered cultural melting-pot in the center of a globalizing world, and have such a thing as "political correctness" :smalltongue:
Aye, and as a citizen of the grand, old US-of-A, id like to tell political correctness to go jump in the little pond we call 'The Atlantic Ocean' and drown itself. Either that, or kill it with fire. It will be our undoing one day.

[Yogibear41]

Either that, or kill it with fire. .

Sorry Fire doesn't overcome its regeneration, see my earlier post for details

[Namfuak]

Sorry Fire doesn't overcome its regeneration, see my earlier post for details

Nothing can survive the drowning rules though.

[Southern Cross]

I've also assumed that taking Eidetic Spellcaster means you lose both the familiar class feature and Scribe Scroll.
However it's still a powerful ability, as it means you never need a spellbook.
However, I'd also rule that you cannot teach other wizards your spells without taking the Scribe Scroll feat, and the old wizard dodge of scribing scrolls when not adventuring, and using those scrolls on the wizard's adventures, also requires the Scribe Scroll feat.

[Chronos]

As for the grammar of it, think of it this way:

"gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll feat": You can choose one of those two, and get that one.

"do not (gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll feat)": You can't get even one of those two.

[sreservoir]

As for the grammar of it, think of it this way:

"gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll feat": You can choose one of those two, and get that one.

"do not (gain a familiar or the Scribe Scroll feat)": You can't get even one of those two.

the latter isn't really a valid interpretation; the scribe scroll feat isn't a thing that can be don'ted.

the only intepretations that appear formally valid to me is, "do not gain [[a familiar] or [the Scribe Scroll feat]]" (i.e. choice), but that's because I like my englishes strongly typed and that's the only way I see that it can pass the typechecker. but that's a really weird way to write that, so it seems more likely that the author was sloppy and the editors were rushed.

[Yogibear41]

Nothing can survive the drowning rules though.

Unless of course it doesn't need to breath :smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

the latter isn't really a valid interpretation; the scribe scroll feat isn't a thing that can be don'ted.

What do you mean? It's a bonus feat granted by a class feature; surely an ACF is allowed to remove that.