How to do high damage without being a Mailman or using Power Attack?

[Nettlekid]

Long story short, I'm thinking about being a Vampire in a friend's low Epic-level game. I'm planning something along the lines of X 5/PrC 4/Vampire template class 1/Legacy Champion 10/Prc +2, which ends up giving me five levels in a base class and effectively 7 levels in a PrC of my choice, at 21 HD and ECL 22. So that's not terrible, even though it's sorely lacking in class features. But in a low Epic game, highly focused on hunting Dragons, I can't think of a good way to use those X 5/PrC 7 levels to make myself a formidable damage dealer. My BAB would be 18 max, which isn't bad, but if I wanted to go the uber-charger PA/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack route, there are better ways to do it. Because there's only 13 levels that grant class features, I don't really have any spellcasting options that are worth it at level 22. Even Ur-Priest just scrapes by with 0+bonus 8th level spells. I think my best chance at being a capable combatant is using ToB and the maneuvers therein, maybe focusing on Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind, but even then I'm not sure. None of the ToB PrC seem too excellent to me. What does the Playground suggest?

[limejuicepowder]

Warlock comes to mind, along with hellfire warlock. Legacy champion is pretty solid when stacked on to hellfire warlock, so that should solve your damage problem....though using hellfire as an undead may not be possible. Even if you can't strictly do it by RAW, talk to the DM; it's far from overpowered, and much less so at epic level.

Should probably go the clawlock route. It offers the most damage and fits well thematically with a vamp. Glaive is good too though.

[Nettlekid]

Can't use Legacy Champion with Hellfire Warlock because the Legacy Champion is progressing the Vampire template class. So it's not going to be counting as 11 levels of Hellfire Warlock or whatever the classic is for that combo.

[Juntao112]

Cancer Mage

[Nettlekid]

Even if that wasn't a joke suggestion, Undead don't get sick.

[Emperor Tippy]

You only have 12 levels to play with, that's bad but we can work with it.

First off, take Vow of Poverty as your first feat then use Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos to exchange all of those feats, picking up 13 extra feats.

Next go Factotum 8/ Rogue 3/ Swordsage 1. Then take ten or so iterations of Improved Sneak Attack.

That should give you the kind of damage you want against things that you can sneak attack.

[Nettlekid]

13 levels actually, because the last level of Legacy Champion can progress something that isn't the Vampire class template.

I don't think Vow of Poverty can work because for one, I doubt the always evil Vampire can pick up or keep an Exalted feat like that. And even if he did, wouldn't the Abyssal Heritor feat you get from EtDC definitely disqualify you from Vow of Poverty, so wouldn't you lose your other Exalted feats? And you wouldn't get them back when you use StDC, because you don't retroactively apply feats when dealing with VoP, right?
On top of that, you think it's worth losing level 22 wealth for all of that?

[Rubik]

What if, instead of being a vampire, you refluff yourself as one? Make yourself a necropolitan psychic warrior and focus on buff powers that make you much more vampire-like, such as Bite of the Wolf, Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, and Form of Doom, with Linked Power to buff without using up your actions (and a psychoactive skin of proteus to shapeshift like vampires do). Go into psion and then metamind once you hit epic to continue raising your power points, with metamind due to the capstone.

Use Epic Overchannel if you need to to raise your manifester level, along with Practiced Manifester and all the other manifester level boosters you can get your claws on.

Fluff yourself right and you'll have no problems being a vampire, and you won't have to worry about damage at all.


You only have 12 levels to play with, that's bad but we can work with it.

First off, take Vow of Poverty as your first feat then use Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos to exchange all of those feats, picking up 13 extra feats.

Next go Factotum 8/ Rogue 3/ Swordsage 1. Then take ten or so iterations of Improved Sneak Attack.

That should give you the kind of damage you want against things that you can sneak attack.An exalted vampire? Aren't undead automatically evil? (Except for ghosts and baelnorns and necropolitans and quite a few others -- but negative energy is still evil! Despite most negative energy spells not being evil at all!)

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, I'm not really dead-set on having vampiric powers, but I liked the idea of actually being a vampire. If I was to go a pseudo-vampire route with it, like as you suggested, then I'd probably just drop the whole vampire thing entirely. But even then, I still don't know what I'd want to do in epic levels to be strong enough not to be threatened by things, while not being so powerful as to destroy anything, while still surviving all the instakills that can happen.

[Rubik]

Hmm, I'm not really dead-set on having vampiric powers, but I liked the idea of actually being a vampire. If I was to go a pseudo-vampire route with it, like as you suggested, then I'd probably just drop the whole vampire thing entirely. But even then, I still don't know what I'd want to do in epic levels to be strong enough not to be threatened by things, while not being so powerful as to destroy anything, while still surviving all the instakills that can happen.Using legacy champion will help you from getting instaganked by not having enough hit dice and whatnot, but not having a source of hp other than your d12 hit dice and not having any native sources of buffs and protections will mean that you won't be able to deal with epic challenges very well, nor will you have much to protect you from all the nasty stuff epic can throw at you.

You could always try a fast progression casting PrC to get you to 9th level spells pretty quick, such as sublime chord. Add in another full-casting PrC to progress it (such as initiate of the sevenfold veils) and you might have something decent.

[Jeff the Green]

You could go warlock 5/hellfire warlock 3/uncanny trickster 3. That would be 5d6 EB + 10d6 hellfire + unarmed strike damage (superior unarmed strike makes this 2d6) + Strength per claw attack. I'm fairly sure the vampire template class only has 8 levels, so you can use legacy champion to advance helfire warlock three more levels for an additional 2d6 + 6d6 hellfire. That works out to ~82 damage per claw. With a constant item of girallon's blessing and multiattack you can make two more claw attacks (RAW, four more, but as you only grow two hands, this is silly) for 1d4 + Strength each and a rend for 2d4 + 1-1/2 Strength. Or instead of the Girallon claws wield a two handed weapon with your full iterative attacks, and use your eldritch claws as secondary attacks.

This will necessitate going warlock 5/vampire 1/uncanny trickster 1/legacy champion 7/hellfire warlock 3/legacy champion +3/uncanny trickster +2.

[Nettlekid]

Although that does sound pretty neat, I'm going to have to go back to what limejuicepowder said. I don't think an undead Vampire with no Con can use Hellfire Blast.

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't think Vow of Poverty can work because for one, I doubt the always evil Vampire can pick up or keep an Exalted feat like that.
There is a Paladin Succubus. You can have an Exalted Vampire.


And even if he did, wouldn't the Abyssal Heritor feat you get from EtDC definitely disqualify you from Vow of Poverty, so wouldn't you lose your other Exalted feats?
Nope. Abyssal Heritor feats aren't evil, just chaotic. Embrace/Shun also have the Chaotic descriptor and not the evil descriptor.


And you wouldn't get them back when you use StDC, because you don't retroactively apply feats when dealing with VoP, right?
That part is true.


On top of that, you think it's worth losing level 22 wealth for all of that?
You don't loose any wealth. You don't have VoP so you do get WBL.

It's just a way for you to pick up enough feats to actually be relevant in epic when you are behind seven or eight class levels.

[Jeff the Green]

Although that does sound pretty neat, I'm going to have to go back to what limejuicepowder said. I don't think an undead Vampire with no Con can use Hellfire Blast.

As limejuicepowder said, you can't by RAW, but talk to your DM. In epic especially, it's pretty far from overpowered.

[Chronos]

If you're going to be using the Dark Chaos Shuffle anyway, why the need for the Vow of Poverty? The shuffle can get you as many feats as you like, limited only by the XP needed to cast the spells.

What you do is take the feat Planar Touchstone (catalogs of enlightenment). This gives you the granted power of one domain. Pick War, and you get two bonus feats. Shuffle those bonus feats into whatever you want. Now attune your Planar Touchstone to something else, and then back to catalogs of enlightenment (you don't even need the Chaos Shuffle for this step; Planar Touchstone has its own mechanic for changing the feat). Pick War again, lather, rinse, repeat.

But I personally think that infinite loops are kind of a slippery slope-- If you're going to do that, you might as well just go Pun-Pun.

More straightforward, without any infinite loop, you can get a lot of damage from a combination of lots of attacks and lots of bonus damage (sneak attack or whatever) on each of them. Make sure to grab the Craven feat.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, I'm not really dead-set on having vampiric powers, but I liked the idea of actually being a vampire. If I was to go a pseudo-vampire route with it, like as you suggested, then I'd probably just drop the whole vampire thing entirely. But even then, I still don't know what I'd want to do in epic levels to be strong enough not to be threatened by things, while not being so powerful as to destroy anything, while still surviving all the instakills that can happen.

Dark Grey Elf Factotum 19/Mind Bender 1/Swordsage 1/Exemplar 1 if LA buyoff is in play, otherwise dump the level of Exemplar.

Take Improved Spell Capacity three times so that you get multiple 9th level spells every day. Take Craven, Darkstalker, and Mindsight. Otherwise take a lot of Font of Inspiration.

The basic idea is master assassin and spy and you are very good at it. You can hang with the party and contribute quite well in epic but you aren't overpowered at all.

Oh yeah, buy a couple of advanced Shadesteel Golems with Rudimentary Intelligence. With the right feats they can become incredibly helpful in epic and they don't get a share of the XP as they are magic items.

[Nettlekid]

Dark Grey Elf Factotum 19/Mind Bender 1/Swordsage 1/Exemplar 1 if LA buyoff is in play, otherwise dump the level of Exemplar.

Take Improved Spell Capacity three times so that you get multiple 9th level spells every day. Take Craven, Darkstalker, and Mindsight. Otherwise take a lot of Font of Inspiration.

The basic idea is master assassin and spy and you are very good at it. You can hang with the party and contribute quite well in epic but you aren't overpowered at all.

Oh yeah, buy a couple of advanced Shadesteel Golems with Rudimentary Intelligence. With the right feats they can become incredibly helpful in epic and they don't get a share of the XP as they are magic items.

This would be pretty good, except that I just played a very similar character to this in my last campaign at level 10, and am satisfied with the archetype for the time being. It was a Factotum with a Mindbender dip and Darkstalker/Mindsight. I was a great scout, but unfortunately the DM wasn't the sort of have a lot of complicated plans, so my skills went generally unused.

What about a Swiftblade? One of the main drawbacks normally is that they don't get 9th level spells, but at level 22 they could. Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Wizard-based-PrC 6? Or something along those lines. Though with Perpetual Options I'd probably run out of spells/day too quickly. It might make a good Initiator build, since with a Warblade you could use a maneuver and recover the maneuver in the same turn. But then you have only a smattering of lower level spells, which don't go too far in Epic.

[Jeff the Green]

Take Improved Spell Capacity three times so that you get multiple 9th level spells every day. Take Craven, Darkstalker, and Mindsight. Otherwise take a lot of Font of Inspiration.

Factotums don't actually cast spells, so they can't take Improved Spell Capacity.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotums don't actually cast spells, so they can't take Improved Spell Capacity.

That's very debatable. Especially seeing as they can apply regular metamagic feats to their spells.

[Nettlekid]

How about something COMPLETELY different? What about...an Iaijutsu Master Bloodstorm Blade? Taking advantage of the Iaijutsu Master's capstone which lets you get a surprise round against an enemy within melee range (and that's within melee range, not "threatened". So logically, a Bloodstorm Blade's melee range is as far as it can throw its weapon) and gaining Iaijutsu Focus damage on thrown Katanas? That could be kind of cool, to have like six katanas on your back that you pull out and hurl. The main problem there I suppose would be how to get many highly enchanted katana without draining all your WBL on expensive weapons.

[Rubik]

The main problem there I suppose would be how to get many highly enchanted katana without draining all your WBL on expensive weapons.Oh, that's easy. Stacking weapon crystal effects for a +50% surcharge.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, if you went with something that gave you Sneak Attack and Iajutsu, and took the Iajutsu master you could end up throwing a solid brick of dice with every attack. And all your Iajutsu dice would get + Cha mod, which as a Vampire is probably going to be pretty high.

Not the most optimal route, I don't think. But could be interesting. Could also take you back to your experiences with Shadowrun or White Wolf (If you played them) and having to roll an entire bag of dice at once...

[Chronos]

If you're a bloodstorm blade, you should only need one weapon. Their thrown weapons boomerang quickly enough to use them for full attacks.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I'd just like to throw my two partially-corroded cents on something quite tangential. "Combat Reflexes" + "Epic Reflexes" + "Evasive Reflexes" + "Spiked Chain."

By that level it's no longer the most valuable thing in the world, but I believe you will be entirely incapable of being hit by any melee creature without reach or ways to close without provoking AoO. With a good bit of warblade, you can make those into 10-foot steps, giving you the option of alternating between
tripping/attacking and moving - I'm not certain (I'm very unfamiliar with high-damage builds in general), but it seems like you might be able to get damage just from the number of attacks you'd be making.

Plus, Spiked Chain qualifies for Shadow Blade, so you can get Dex to Damage (not when using that 10-foot stance, sadly.)

[Jeff the Green]

That's very debatable. Especially seeing as they can apply regular metamagic feats to their spells.

Not really:

By spending 1 inspiration point, you can mimic a spell as a spell-like ability.

Emphasis added. The factotum's specific ability to add metamagic to his SLAs trumps the general rule that you can't add metamagic to SLAs, but doesn't make them spells.


I'd just like to throw my two partially-corroded cents on something quite tangential. "Combat Reflexes" + "Epic Reflexes" + "Evasive Reflexes" + "Spiked Chain."

By that level it's no longer the most valuable thing in the world, but I believe you will be entirely incapable of being hit by any melee creature without reach or ways to close without provoking AoO. With a good bit of warblade, you can make those into 10-foot steps, giving you the option of alternating between
tripping/attacking and moving - I'm not certain (I'm very unfamiliar with high-damage builds in general), but it seems like you might be able to get damage just from the number of attacks you'd be making.

Plus, Spiked Chain qualifies for Shadow Blade, so you can get Dex to Damage (not when using that 10-foot stance, sadly.)

Add in Improved Trip, Knock-Down, and at least 3 factotum levels. You get an automatic trip attempt every time you do 10 damage (which should be every attack) and then another free attack if you succeed. Plus you add your Intelligence to your trip check and can add it to damage or attack with an inspiration point.

[Coidzor]

I'd just like to throw my two partially-corroded cents on something quite tangential. "Combat Reflexes" + "Epic Reflexes" + "Evasive Reflexes" + "Spiked Chain."

By that level it's no longer the most valuable thing in the world, but I believe you will be entirely incapable of being hit by any melee creature without reach or ways to close without provoking AoO. With a good bit of warblade, you can make those into 10-foot steps, giving you the option of alternating between

By that level, the UMD and WBL investment for a Sparring Dummy of the Master for the whole party shouldn't be too onerous, and I believe the 10' step option folds into any opportunity one would have to make a 5' step.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, well, I probably couldn't do all the cool Iaijutsu stuff as a Vampire, but I guess I could get Bloodstorm Blade 2/Iaijutsu Master 5, and that gets me the Cha to damage. And BB 2 is what gets thrown to count as melee, so that's pretty cool.

The reason I'd need lots of katanas is that for Iaijutsu Focus to work, you need to attack immediately after drawing your weapon. So if you were to just Quick Draw and full attack, only the first attack gets the damage bonus. That's why Gnomish Quickrazor is used, because you can draw and sheathe and redraw very quickly. But here we need katanas for Iaijutsu Master, right? Or I guess any weapon, but katanas are cool. So we need to keep drawing and throwing them. Is there any way to re-sheathe very quickly?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

By that level, the UMD and WBL investment for a Sparring Dummy of the Master for the whole party shouldn't be too onerous, and I believe the 10' step option folds into any opportunity one would have to make a 5' step.

...I feel the birth of something horrible here.

...yeah, it's born. Ignoring Sparring Dummy of the Master for now, you need two brothers with Warblade 20 and enough feats to get Thicket of Blades from devoted heart. Now five-foot-steps threaten AoOs; give them both spiked chains, combat reflexes, epic reflexes and evasive reflexes. Whenever one of them moves, it provokes an attack from the other, who can then move, provoking another attack.

Now we just need a way to give them uncapped damage that scales from how far they've moved.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not really:


Emphasis added. The factotum's specific ability to add metamagic to his SLAs trumps the general rule that you can't add metamagic to SLAs, but doesn't make them spells.
The Factotum has a spell list, prepares spells, and uses spells. It's a spell casting class that has a normal maximum of 7th level spells. The fact that it uses those spells as spell like abilities is irrelevant.

[gooddragon1]

Well, it depends on your definition of high damage:

For 300 points:

Harm, Quickened Harm [a metamagic rod] (they take 150 damage if they save twice or 300 if they don't)

Strike of Perfect Clarity + Battle Jump (fall from a certain height) + Valorous Weapon. Not entirely sure if this works though.

For the daily double:

1d2 crusader (also dubious).
Aura of Chaos + Imbued Healing feat (luck domain) + a 1d2 weapon.

[Jeff the Green]

The Factotum has a spell list, prepares spells, and uses spells. It's a spell casting class that has a normal maximum of 7th level spells. The fact that it uses those spells as spell like abilities is irrelevant.

It is relevant when a feat has a prereq of "Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class." Casting a spell and using an SLA are two different things, as per here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions).

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, maybe go Monk 9/ Swordsage 4 (I believe that gives you access to 8th level maneuvers and stances and thus Balance on the Sky).

Then grab Epic Speed for a 90 foot movement speed and Self Concealment 5 times for a constant 50% miss chance against you. Infinite and Exceptional Deflection along with Reflect Arrows of course to negate ranged spell attacks and throw them back at your attacker. Permanent Emanation: AMF is a possibility.

Hmm, grab Dodge (one of the better versions), Mobility, and Spring Attack if you can find the feats and then play as a speed freak hit and run expert. You effectively have a perfect fly speed of 90 feet that works inside an AMF and have what is effectively total concealment at the same time.

For damage you have to probably drop the AMF but go and make a spell trap dagger. Use the rules for creating spell traps to create auto reset traps of damage dealing spells that trigger on impact. It's moderately cheesy but you are playing as an monk in epic so your DM should be alright with it.

[Emperor Tippy]

It is relevant when a feat has a prereq of "Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class." Casting a spell and using an SLA are two different things, as per here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions).

The fact that Factotum casts its spells as spell like abilities is irrelevant, it is still a spell casting class with a normal maximum of 7th level spells and has the ability to cast those spells. That it casts them as SLA's is irrelevant.

[Nettlekid]

I'd just like to throw my two partially-corroded cents on something quite tangential. "Combat Reflexes" + "Epic Reflexes" + "Evasive Reflexes" + "Spiked Chain."

By that level it's no longer the most valuable thing in the world, but I believe you will be entirely incapable of being hit by any melee creature without reach or ways to close without provoking AoO. With a good bit of warblade, you can make those into 10-foot steps, giving you the option of alternating between
tripping/attacking and moving - I'm not certain (I'm very unfamiliar with high-damage builds in general), but it seems like you might be able to get damage just from the number of attacks you'd be making.

Plus, Spiked Chain qualifies for Shadow Blade, so you can get Dex to Damage (not when using that 10-foot stance, sadly.)

Hmm, I kind of like the sound of this. Except that we'll be fighting Dragons, likely with 30 ft reach and a breath attack, of course. If I were to combine Evasive Reflexes and Shifting Defense with Improved Combat Reflexes, what would I have to do to stay out of that Dragon's reach forever? Either a DC 40 Tumble check or the Sparring Dummy of the Master gets me 10 ft steps. So...with a reach weapon and some way to get extended reach (maybe find some way into Warshaper, or take the Inhuman Reach tree)...If it comes to 30 ft to attack, Shifting Defense activates and I move 10 ft away. It if comes within 20 ft so that a 10 ft step keeps me in its reach, I get an AoO and can scurry out of the way. That's pretty cool, actually.

If I took a little Monk, and managed some bonus feat to DCFS, I could get Deflect Arrows, Extraordinary Deflection, and Infinite Deflection so no ranged attacks can hit me. So that's no melee, no ranged...Is there any way I can get a Golem's infinite SR brand of magic immunity? That could go toward making a totally immune build. Hm, need something for that breath weapon, too...

EDIT: How could I get Permanent Emanation: AMF if I can't cast AMF?

[Emperor Tippy]

Is there any way I can get a Golem's infinite SR brand of magic immunity?
Yes but it goes beyond just moderately cheesy although you might be able to get away with it if you don't continue to abuse the process.

Step 1: Get a Power Stone of Fusion, a Power Stone of Astral Seed, and a scroll of Simulacrum of a Will-o'-Wisp.
Step 2: UMD your scroll to create the Will-o'-Wisp.
Step 3: UPD the Power Stone of Fusion to fuse with the Will-o'-Wisp.
Step 4: UPD the Power Stone of Astral Seed.
Step 5: Kill yourself.
Step 6: Reconstruct your body.

You might want to first get a Bard to Inspire Greatness so that you don't loose an HD from being ressed with Astral Seed (or just use a Thought Bottle to reset your level).

That gives you Ex invisibility at will and Immunity to Magic (except for Magic Missile and Maze).


That could go toward making a totally immune build. Hm, need something for that breath weapon, too...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13126503&postcount=32
See that post.

Repeat the above trick with a wyrmling Mercury Dragon (200 foot perfect fly speed), wyrmling Force Dragon (ability to ignore force effects), one creature for each energy type, an Earth Elemental for Earth Glide, a Dire Tortoise, a Choker for Quickness, and anything else that is useful.


EDIT: How could I get Permanent Emanation: AMF if I can't cast AMF?
Get a scroll. Ideally you want one that is effected by Mastery of Shaping to ignore your square. That way you get all your magic items but no one adjacent to you does.

[Nettlekid]

Doing all those things doesn't sound fun at all. I'll just try to find some way to get really high SR.

And there's definitely no way that having a scroll of AMF counts as being able to cast it under the prereqs described by Permanent Emanation.

[Emperor Tippy]

Doing all those things doesn't sound fun at all. I'll just try to find some way to get really high SR.
Just because a trick allows you to become a god doesn't mean that you have to abuse it to that extent. Just pick up the Immunity to Magic if that is what you want and don't get anything else.

But yeah, your choices for immunity to magic are pretty much what I listed and using Shapechange to shift into a form with Immunity to Magic.


And there's definitely no way that having a scroll of AMF counts as being able to cast it under the prereqs described by Permanent Emanation.
Sure it does. You can cast the spell. You might arguably have to keep another AMF scroll on hand so that you can continue to meet the prerequisites but you certainly can cast the spell.

[Curmudgeon]

Hmm, maybe go Monk 9/ Swordsage 4 (I believe that gives you access to 8th level maneuvers and stances and thus Balance on the Sky).
Initiator level is the sum of martial adept levels and half of other levels. To have IL of 15 (the minimum for level 8 maneuvers) you would need 22 levels in classes other than Swordsage.

[Emperor Tippy]

Initiator level is the sum of martial adept levels and half of other levels. To have IL of 15 (the minimum for level 8 maneuvers) you would need 22 levels in classes other than Swordsage.

Yeah, I wasn't really thinking. You need Swordsage 8.

[ben-zayb]

Yeah, I wasn't really thinking. You need Swordsage 11
Fixed it for you.

[Nettlekid]

Fixed it for you.

Tippy was omitting the 10 levels of Legacy Champion in the build already, one of which would also progress Swordsage.

Okay, so I think a smooth, jumps-out-of-danger's-way monk type Vampire would be really cool, especially in a game where Dragons get pissed off that although they can shout and coerce, they can't actually force this untouchable guy to do anything. As such, here's my planned build.

Changeling Vampire Rogue 2/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper 3/Vamp Template Class 1/Legacy Champion 9/Swordsage 2/Legacy Champion +1. Most of the vampire bonus feats will be DCFSed out for Epic feats at the end.
With this, the guy can have 15 ft reach (30 with a reach weapon), so with Evasive Reflexes coupled with Improved Combat Reflexes anything that comes closer than 30 ft is darted away from. He has Deflect Arrows, Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, and Reflect Arrows. He has the Spring Attack line, because if he's focused mainly on defense but he has a high speed then he could go invisible, dash in, Wraithstrike (probably on an item) Slam attack for 3 negative levels, and dash out. Darkstalker because you gotta in this day and age, Adaptive Style for the Swordsage, and Lifesense because it's COOL. Finally capped off with the Epic Destiny Mythic Shadow, because even if the bonus precision damage goes to waste the permanent Greater Invisibility is thematic and cool.
As for maneuvers, I get up to 6th level Swordsage maneuvers and the very useful Shifting Defense stance, which couples well with Evasive Reflexes. If I can get my Tumble up to 40 (shouldn't be too hard with those Dex bonuses) then I can take 10 ft steps. So that all takes care of melee and ranged defense, and a chipping-away style of offense. Still have the magic problem to take care of. I don't just want to have a permanent item of Antimagic Field, because then I lose the best powers from being a Vampire.

EDIT: Huh, based on the item-crafting rules in the DMG, a thingy of Spell Resistance 50 would cost 380,000 gold. Which is a lot, but not all that much when you consider that it means no SR: Yes spell can touch you from anything less than a CL 30 creature rolling a 20. And I don't see anything that states what the "maximum allowable" SR is for a nonepic item, so even though this would be an epic item, I don't think the cost is multiplied by 10.

[Sith_Happens]

Stormguard Warrior feat (ToB) + as many attacks as you can get. Even better when combined with FreakyCheeseMan's suggestion.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Tippy was omitting the 10 levels of Legacy Champion in the build already, one of which would also progress Swordsage.

Okay, so I think a smooth, jumps-out-of-danger's-way monk type Vampire would be really cool, especially in a game where Dragons get pissed off that although they can shout and coerce, they can't actually force this untouchable guy to do anything. As such, here's my planned build.

Changeling Vampire Rogue 2/Monk 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper 3/Vamp Template Class 1/Legacy Champion 9/Swordsage 2/Legacy Champion +1. Most of the vampire bonus feats will be DCFSed out for Epic feats at the end.
With this, the guy can have 15 ft reach (30 with a reach weapon), so with Evasive Reflexes coupled with Improved Combat Reflexes anything that comes closer than 30 ft is darted away from. He has Deflect Arrows, Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, and Reflect Arrows. He has the Spring Attack line, because if he's focused mainly on defense but he has a high speed then he could go invisible, dash in, Wraithstrike (probably on an item) Slam attack for 3 negative levels, and dash out. Darkstalker because you gotta in this day and age, Adaptive Style for the Swordsage, and Lifesense because it's COOL. Finally capped off with the Epic Destiny Mythic Shadow, because even if the bonus precision damage goes to waste the permanent Greater Invisibility is thematic and cool.
As for maneuvers, I get up to 6th level Swordsage maneuvers and the very useful Shifting Defense stance, which couples well with Evasive Reflexes. If I can get my Tumble up to 40 (shouldn't be too hard with those Dex bonuses) then I can take 10 ft steps. So that all takes care of melee and ranged defense, and a chipping-away style of offense. Still have the magic problem to take care of. I don't just want to have a permanent item of Antimagic Field, because then I lose the best powers from being a Vampire.

EDIT: Huh, based on the item-crafting rules in the DMG, a thingy of Spell Resistance 50 would cost 380,000 gold. Which is a lot, but not all that much when you consider that it means no SR: Yes spell can touch you from anything less than a CL 30 creature rolling a 20. And I don't see anything that states what the "maximum allowable" SR is for a nonepic item, so even though this would be an epic item, I don't think the cost is multiplied by 10.

Its still over the pricing limit and I'm pretty sure that automatically makes it an epic item :smallsigh:. (note, too lazy to check the actual epic item rules right now please correct me if I'm wrong)

[Nettlekid]

It is an Epic item, but not all Epic items are automatically x10 price. In fact I found an Epic Mantle of Spell Resistance, and it follows the same pricing scheme as the nonepic one.

[Jigokuro]

What about a Swiftblade? One of the main drawbacks normally is that they don't get 9th level spells, but at level 22 they could. Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Wizard-based-PrC 6? Or something along those lines. Though with Perpetual Options I'd probably run out of spells/day too quickly. It might make a good Initiator build, since with a Warblade you could use a maneuver and recover the maneuver in the same turn. But then you have only a smattering of lower level spells, which don't go too far in Epic.

Well what you've moved onto does seem cool, you actually mentioned without knowing it an even more invulnerable epic build. Consider this:
0 (optional). Be immune to Dazing. (Though any epic character that plans on living a week should be anyway...)
1. Enemy declares any kind of action against you.
2. Immediately cast Celerity.
3. Use free standard action to Enervated Speed a few turns of time.
4. Negate action against you before it happens.
Pros:
Not resource intensive at all, just being an epic Swiftblade does this automatically.
Cons:
Doesn't stop unexpected actions.
Eats spell slots like TicTacs.

Of course, those cons have workarounds by epic. You should never be surprised just like you should never be dazed or stunned, and you'll have plenty of bonus spells as a vamp if your casting stat is CHA.

[Rubik]

1. Find a way to procure a tinfoil hat and something you can carry on your person that can call out command words.

2. Have the carryon luggage ready actions to blow your tinfoil hat up to normal size when something nasty could kill or incapacitate you.

3. ???

4. Profit!

[Nettlekid]

Well what you've moved onto does seem cool, you actually mentioned without knowing it an even more invulnerable epic build. Consider this:
0 (optional). Be immune to Dazing. (Though any epic character that plans on living a week should be anyway...)
1. Enemy declares any kind of action against you.
2. Immediately cast Celerity.
3. Use free standard action to Enervated Speed a few turns of time.
4. Negate action against you before it happens.
Pros:
Not resource intensive at all, just being an epic Swiftblade does this automatically.
Cons:
Doesn't stop unexpected actions.
Eats spell slots like TicTacs.

Of course, those cons have workarounds by epic. You should never be surprised just like you should never be dazed or stunned, and you'll have plenty of bonus spells as a vamp if your casting stat is CHA.

This does sound pretty cool, kind of like a Clockstoppers thing. I envisioned a similar style of gameplay for an Epic Erudite, who could Improved Overchannel things to ML 44 (and not care about damage because of Delay Death) and then if anything happened that he didn't like, he could Celerity and then super augmented Temporal Acceleration. But he would be able to use Mental Pinnacle to refill PP. How do you suggest not draining all spell slots super fast?

[Anthrowhale]

In addition to Iajutsu Master 5, I'd suggest incorporeality both because it maxes out the miss chance for attacks on you and gives touch attacks.

If you can buy off ECL, this can be acquired almost for free via the Savage Species "Ritual of Transfiguration" which imposes ECL+2.

Also note the "ghost touch equipment" section on page 42 and various skill tricks in complete scoundrel for forcing flat-footed conditions.

[Nettlekid]

Is there any way to get a metamagiced spell as a SLA? Imagine if you had a Heightened-to-9th-level Haste as an SLA, and could just churn out Time Stop whenever you felt like it? Now THAT would be pretty worthy of Epic-level.

I still need a good way for my Vampire monk guy to avoid dragon's breath weapons. I could give him an item of the Tome of Magic mystery Flicker, at CL 10, so he can immediate action jump 25 ft, but that sort of takes the fun out of the 5-10 ft step dances he does, if he could just do that jump at any time. Plus I don't know if the 50% still-hits-you clause applies for breath weapons. So I'd like to find a better counter against that (and area of effects in general, not just breath weapons).

[Emperor Tippy]

Is there any way to get a metamagiced spell as a SLA?
Get the spell as an SLA and then take the feat Heighten Spell-Like Ability from Complete Arcane.

Also the spell like ability option for the Archmage.


Imagine if you had a Heightened-to-9th-level Haste as an SLA,
Heightening Haste does nothing. You are better off casting Persistent Haste, it's also a 9th level slot and now lasts all day. If you include Extend as well you can get it for two days per casting.


and could just churn out Time Stop whenever you felt like it? Now THAT would be pretty worthy of Epic-level.
Step 1: Create a Permanent Colossal Animated Object
Step 2: Create a Permanent Fine Animated Object (like a ring)
Step 3: Poloymorph Any Object both of the Animated Objects into humans.
Step 4: Manifest True Mind Switch three times to move yourself into the ring, then into the colossal object, and then back into your body. The Colossal Object is now in the ring.
Step 5: End the PAO's.
Step 6: Go and put 32 Craft Contingent Spells (such as Maximized Timestop) on the Ring.
Step 7: Take the feat Spell Stowaway: Timestop (Celerity is also fun).
Step 8: Profit.

For added fun, add in a permanent telepathic bond with the Colossal object when it is PAOed into a human (its then a valid target) and you can now mentally order your "ring" to trigger your time stops or celerities (or Resilient Spheres or anything else) whenever you want. And the best part is that the "ring" is a creature so it gets to ready actions.


I still need a good way for my Vampire monk guy to avoid dragon's breath weapons. I could give him an item of the Tome of Magic mystery Flicker, at CL 10, so he can immediate action jump 25 ft, but that sort of takes the fun out of the 5-10 ft step dances he does, if he could just do that jump at any time. Plus I don't know if the 50% still-hits-you clause applies for breath weapons. So I'd like to find a better counter against that (and area of effects in general, not just breath weapons).

Just pick up a ring of universal energy immunity.

[Nettlekid]

Get the spell as an SLA and then take the feat Heighten Spell-Like Ability from Complete Arcane.

Also the spell like ability option for the Archmage.


Heightening Haste does nothing. You are better off casting Persistent Haste, it's also a 9th level slot and now lasts all day. If you include Extend as well you can get it for two days per casting.


You didn't understand what I wanted to do. I wanted to have a higher-level Haste to subsume using the Swiftblade's capstone in order to make those Hastes turn into Time Stop. I guess it wouldn't work because the capstone does specify "spell slot" and it also says you can't use a metamagiced Haste for this purpose.



Step 1: Create a Permanent Colossal Animated Object
Step 2: Create a Permanent Fine Animated Object (like a ring)
Step 3: Poloymorph Any Object both of the Animated Objects into humans.
Step 4: Manifest True Mind Switch three times to move yourself into the ring, then into the colossal object, and then back into your body. The Colossal Object is now in the ring.
Step 5: End the PAO's.
Step 6: Go and put 32 Craft Contingent Spells (such as Maximized Timestop) on the Ring.
Step 7: Take the feat Spell Stowaway: Timestop (Celerity is also fun).
Step 8: Profit.

For added fun, add in a permanent telepathic bond with the Colossal object when it is PAOed into a human (its then a valid target) and you can now mentally order your "ring" to trigger your time stops or celerities (or Resilient Spheres or anything else) whenever you want. And the best part is that the "ring" is a creature so it gets to ready actions.


Is every piece of advice you give going to be like this, somehow involving Astral Seed or True Mind Switch or PaO? Because it's kind of useless to me. Yes, it's trivial at high levels to get any effect you want if you're willing to use high level magic to do so. If I wanted the ends to justify the means, I'd just go Erudite 20 and be done with it, having all spells known, eliminating casting time and components, and having infinite spells/round through the use of time stop and clones. And I'd have the same (actually better and more efficient) result. But right now, I'm talking about the Swiftblade. And I wanted to see if there was a way to use the Swiftblade's capstone to its highest effect. Which involves using the Swiftblade's capstone. I want Time Stop by using Swiftblade Haste, or I don't want Time Stop at all.



Just pick up a ring of universal energy immunity.

Again, means =/= end. The character I have in mind is a cool, quick-moving ninja-esque vampire who avoid attacks. Although sitting there and not being affected by the attack does the same thing, it's not in the spirit of it.

[Chronos]

You can't persist Haste, since persist only works on spells with a fixed range.

[Kane0]

Is homebrew available to you? There are plenty of good ones out there that can help you out.

[Emperor Tippy]

You didn't understand what I wanted to do. I wanted to have a higher-level Haste to subsume using the Swiftblade's capstone in order to make those Hastes turn into Time Stop. I guess it wouldn't work because the capstone does specify "spell slot" and it also says you can't use a metamagiced Haste for this purpose.
Yeah, I didn't realzie what you wanted.


Is every piece of advice you give going to be like this, somehow involving Astral Seed or True Mind Switch or PaO? Because it's kind of useless to me.
Then stop asking how to get various broken effects for an epic level game. Epic isn't well supported and far more than anywhere else in D&D is dependent on the players and DM working together to provide a good experience. Epic is all about tricks like this. Tell me what you want and I will tell you how to get it but the method used is going to be broken and "cheesy" because the result you are asking for is broken and cheesy.

You want to play Epic with what is effectively 13 levels and do meaningful damage and contribute to the party; while effectively 9 levels in the hole compared to where you should be. You can get the result that you want but it is going to involve cheese of varying degrees.


Yes, it's trivial at high levels to get any effect you want if you're willing to use high level magic to do so.
You are playing Epic. If you are unwilling to use high level magic then don't play the game at that point, because anything you face will slaughter you without trying. To survive in Epic you either need to negate magic on a brokenly large scale or use magic on a brokenly large scale. In both cases you need high level magic.


If I wanted the ends to justify the means, I'd just go Erudite 20 and be done with it, having all spells known, eliminating casting time and components, and having infinite spells/round through the use of time stop and clones.
Which doesn't actually meet your stated needs or desires. You asked for how to have tons of time stops, I told you and using a method that doesn't require any commit of class levels or anything besides gold.


And I'd have the same (actually better and more efficient) result.
Not really, you still expend resources.


But right now, I'm talking about the Swiftblade. And I wanted to see if there was a way to use the Swiftblade's capstone to its highest effect. Which involves using the Swiftblade's capstone. I want Time Stop by using Swiftblade Haste, or I don't want Time Stop at all.
Then you won't get Time Stop. More precisely, you can do it if you are willing to use cheese for unlimited 6th level spell slots but I doubt you want that either


Again, means =/= end. The character I have in mind is a cool, quick-moving ninja-esque vampire who avoid attacks. Although sitting there and not being affected by the attack does the same thing, it's not in the spirit of it.
Contingent Celerity's then set to "I am attacked with a Breath Weapon". That should fit the theme that you seem to be going for.


You can't persist Haste, since persist only works on spells with a fixed range.

That's what Occular Spell is for.

[TuggyNE]

Is every piece of advice you give going to be like this, somehow involving Astral Seed or True Mind Switch or PaO?

Or wish or ice assassin or mindrape or love's pain or simulacrum or genesis or shadesteel golems, yes. It's Tippy, what do you expect? :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

Has anyone mentioned Hulking Hurler yet? Throw really, really large ninja stars at people! Or colossal greatswords with the returning property..

[Emperor Tippy]

Or wish or ice assassin or mindrape or love's pain or simulacrum or genesis or shadesteel golems, yes. It's Tippy, what do you expect? :smallwink:

Hey now, I also recommend using an Occular Spell, Chained, Ray Splitting (if you DM is nice on the interaction with Chain), Twinned, Forceful, Fell Drain Harm. Don't you want eyeball death rays that deal 300 points of damage (potentially half that if they make both Will saves), 2 negative levels, and two fortitude saves that if failed make the target knocked prone and stunned for a round. Throw on Repeat Spell so that it happens all over again the next round.

Put Heal (minus the Fell Drain) in your other eye and you can kill or cure an entire gathering at once with your eye beams of death.

Polar Ray is also a good substitute for Harm. As is Power Word Kill.

And this is why high level D&D should have players that are immune to things like Necromancy.

[Acanous]

Or wish or ice assassin or mindrape or love's pain or simulacrum or genesis or shadesteel golems, yes. It's Tippy, what do you expect? :smallwink:

Some of us enjoy contingent Ice-assassins automatically equipped by self-resetting Wish traps that you keep in a Demiplane connected to you by a Gate with one end being your "Bag of Holding".
Because anything that attacks an Epic character SHOULD be attacked by a clone of itself with the same gear in the surprise round, even though your character is unaware :p

[Icewraith]

I'm surprised people mentioned infinite AoO lockdown builds for epic but neglected Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike.

At epic, most things have ridiculous to-hit or a way to negate most of your armor class. -8 to AC (-4 form each feat) won't kill you if you can keep up a reasonable miss chance. (Swiftblade would be very useful here, since I think the effect isn't negated by True Seeing) In exchange, everytime someone tries to attack you, you AoO them. If they manage to hit you, you get to hit them again thanks to Karmic Strike. If you really need 8 more AC for some reason you can turn the feats off on your turn.

Thanks to your other feats, if they move in your threatened area, you get to use your other feats to trip them and then get more free attacks and 10-foot steps. At that point if you've got any feats left consider the three feat Mage Slayer line, you negate magical miss chances and prevent people from casting defensively in your threatened area (although you do reach a point where spellcasters can quicken everything). You can make up for caster level hits with Practiced Spellcaster if necessary.

[Nettlekid]

I don't thiiiiink Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike are necessary, because the AoO-focused part of the build isn't about getting the many attacks and doing damage, it's about keeping out of the way. As such, hopefully the enemy will never get close enough or be able to initiate an attack to make either of those feats work.

I'm thinking about switching those three levels of Swordsage to Crusader. Or maybe two Crusader, one Swordsage, to get the fun warping boosts of Swordsage while getting some of the more handy White Raven abilities from Crusader, like White Raven Tactics and most importantly, Press the Advantage. I thought Shifting Defense let you take a 5 ft step before their attack, but now I realize that of course that's not the case.

[kulosle]

So i'm a huge fan of Bloodstorm blade to be honest, you only need 4 levels in it, 3 in factotum, 2 in warblade, 4 master thrower and advance master thrower once so you have essentially 5. Take the fun thrown weapon tricks like palm throw, trip throw, double throw. Ask your gm about double toss though. i had one that ruled that two weapon fighting feats don't apply to it. also ask how many you can throw if you had an item of perpetual garrillion blessing. but palm throw is a great way to get more attacks. Do the iajutus focus tricks that have been discussed previously. Also you can get the gauntlets from the magic item compendium that let you ad your cha to all melee attacks, for you thats all your attacks.

Also the quick and easy answer to the question how do i get more damage, is to take leadership and get a DFI bard.