Question about Maximum Spot Check Distance

[LordotheMorning]

I'm running a jungle campaign currently, which means my players spend a lot of time in dense and medium forest terrain. Spot checks are supposed to "start" at a maximum distance of 2d6 x 10 ft and 2d8 x 10 ft respectively for the purposes of seeing other parties.

So far, most of my random encounters have been starting in the following way:
-Roll 2d6, we'll use an example result of 9.
-Spot checks start at 90 feet.
-Neither the party nor the monsters can see each other until they are within 90 feet of one another, therefore neither of them would know to hide.
-DC for seeing a medium creature is assumed to be 0. Add 9 to the DC because it's -1 for every 10 feet of distance.
-Almost everyone beats the DC 9 spot check and is aware of one another.
-Encounter begins.

What I'm wondering is this: Is the maximum spot check distance supposed to apply to the monsters as well as the party? Is it supposed to be rolled separately for each opposing group of creatures? How is anyone supposed to get surprise rounds when visibility is so low? Are there any cases in which monsters or players can be assumed to be hiding even if they aren't hiding from anything?

The rule seems somewhat dysfunctional to me because I get the impression that it should be easier for jungle predators to spot people trekking through the jungle. Because of this rule, even the monsters that have great hide checks don't get the chance to hide because by the time they see the party, the party has seen them too. Is this how it's supposed to work? It seems to me that spot checks and hide checks should matter more in a dense jungle instead of less.

[icefractal]

I'd say that:
A) You can be moving stealthily even without a specific target to be stealthy from. IIRC, this cuts your movement in half unless you want a penalty.

B) Listen checks are also a thing. Since the predator is standing still or moving slowly, and the party is moving at full speed, they'll have an advantage, things being equal otherwise.


So for example, 4th level party vs tiger. The party is kinda trying to be stealthy, but still moving at full speed. Average rolls:
Tiger: Spot 13, Listen 13, Hide 18, Move Silently 19
Druid (most perceptive): Spot 24, Listen 24
Cleric (least stealthy): Hide 1, Move Silently 1 (including movement penalty)
Spot Range: Spot checks become possible at 2d6*10 => 70', Druid notices Tiger at 60'
Listen Range: Tiger notices Cleric at 120', Druid notices Tiger at 50'

1) At 120' away, the Tiger hears the party coming.
2) At 70' away, Spot checks are possible. With average rolls, the Tiger sees the Cleric, but is not yet seen.
3) At 60' away, the Druid sees the Tiger.

Result: If the Tiger immediately pounced on seeing the party, it would get a surprise round - but from 70' away, it wouldn't be able to reach them. If it decides to get closer first, it will be spotted at 60', and combat begins as normal. If the party was less perceptive (Spot/Listen +11 or less), then the Tiger could get close enough to attack on the surprise round.

[Krobar]

I would apply the spot checks to the monsters too, maybe with a bonus of some sort to reflect the fact that they're in their natural environment.

Something to keep in mind regarding not seeing each other - in the real world that's often how it works. Take Vietnam, for example. There were many, many instances of VC or NVA patrols running headlong into GI patrols, with neither knowing the other was there because of the dense foliage, until they ran into each other and the firefight was on. And the Vietnamese lived there.

I would say if your PCs want to become good jungle fighters, ambushes will be very important. Traps too. They'll need to figure out where the enemy might come through and lie in wait. I'd give them a survival check, or knowledge (local) or something like that to figure that out. Survival includes tracking IIRC so they could use that to find trails the enemy uses and set up accordingly, so that would be my first impulse. The more they do it though, the better they should become at it.

[Frosty]

I don't like the Spot rules. I mean for one, given how far away the Moon is, in theory no one should ever be able to see it thanks to the penalties.

[Krobar]

I don't like the Spot rules. I mean for one, given how far away the Moon is, in theory no one should ever be able to see it thanks to the penalties.

I never require spot checks for something easily seen. Spot checks should only be for things that aren't both obvious and in plain sight. Once you realize that Spot works much better.

[LordotheMorning]

I don't like the Spot rules. I mean for one, given how far away the Moon is, in theory no one should ever be able to see it thanks to the penalties.

Given that the Moon is Colossal ++++++... (etc.), it would make sense that it's size offsets the distance penalty almost completely.

@icefractal: That is extremely helpful. I almost completely forgot about listen checks. I think that's pretty much the key ingredient I was missing. That's also going to lead to some hilarious fun if the party ever encounters an army of gnolls or some such headed through the jungle. Cheers!

[Duke of Urrel]

I have some suggestions for you that you may want to take with a grain of salt. I developed my understanding of the rules of D&D entirely from Version 3.0, and although I think I'm pretty good at Version 3.5 now (which I've been studying over the last six months), there are still a few bugs in my mental software.

That having been said, there's something very reasonable that Version 3.0 did for Spot checks. At the maximum distance given for Spot checks in each type of terrain, the base Spot DC was set at 20, not zero. You added each creature's size modifier to this base, and you could also add other modifiers for contrast or camouflage. For a creature using Hide skill, you increased the base DC to 25 and added the creature's Hide modifier. (You could use the base 20 Spot DC instead for a creature whose Hide check modifier was –6 or worse.)

With a base DC 20 for Spot checks – at a given threshold whose radius was different for each kind of outdoor terrain – there was always a good chance that some individuals in two opposing parties would fail to spot their opponents. It was even possible that everybody's Spot check would fail. However, the Version 3.0 rules also provided a threshold at which the base Spot DC was set at zero. The radius of this threshold was always half the radius of the Spot DC 20 threshold. When two opposing parties reached the Spot DC 0 threshold, the general rule was that everybody automatically spotted everybody else unless some creatures used Hide skill.

(This presentation is a paraphrase of the rules that appear on pages 59 and 60 of my dear old Dungeon Master's Guide, Version 3.0, published in the year 2000.)

I have preserved some 3.0 rules for my own game, which otherwise generally follows 3.5 rules. I still keep the Spot DC 20 threshold, which forms the outer boundary of what I call the granted Spot check zone. The radius of this zone is as given according to 3.5 rules. Half of the radius of this boundary is the outer boundary of what I call the easy visibility zone. Since Spot checks add range penalties, it may sometimes be advisable to grant Spot checks even at the border of the easy visibility zone for creatures that still haven't spotted the opposing party, but I don't bother if most of their Spot checks are nearly certain to succeed and nobody in the opposing party is hiding. In my game, Spot checks are difficult in all types of terrain that offer limited visibility, and Listen skill is important. I think retaining the base 20 Spot check threshold is worth the extra complexity because it makes surprise more likely and creates more opportunities to use stealth in wilderness environments.

Of course, extra complexity carries its own problems, and I have had to make up some ad-hoc house rules to deal with it. For example, if you maneuver carefully so as to keep an enemy party outside of your own easy visibility zone, I allow you either to trail this party or to bypass it, as you wish, and I allow your Hide checks to take 20 (but not 25) while you do, because I consider you still to be effectively in a base 20 Spot check zone. On the other hand, I don't allow your Hide check to take 20 if you try to hide while charging or attacking or after sniping, regardless of your distance from your enemy.

Anyway, as I said, take my recommendations with a grain of salt, but you may want to experiment with them. Good luck!

[Lord Vukodlak]

I don't like the Spot rules. I mean for one, given how far away the Moon is, in theory no one should ever be able to see it thanks to the penalties.

The rules for spot are intended to be used for locating creatures that are actively trying to hide or would otherwise be difficult to see. They aren't intended for spotting THE MOON.

[Curmudgeon]

D&D encounters can (theoretically) start at up to 1440' (plains terrain, maximum rolls). However, the Spot penalty is -144 at that distance, which is patently absurd.

I don't use a lot of house rules, but this linear scaling penalty for a real-world logarithmic increase in difficulty was spoiling my games (making it impossible to detect something at medium distance), so I came up with this:

Range penalties for Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm) and Listen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm) are reduced:

From 101'-300', range penalties add -1 per additional 20'.
From 301'-600', range penalties add -1 per additional 30'.
From 601'-1000', range penalties add -1 per additional 40'.
Beyond 1000', range penalties add -1 per additional 50'.


{TABLE="head"] Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty
10' | -1 | | 160' | -13 | | 450' | -25 | | 880' | -37
20' | -2 | | 180' | -14 | | 480' | -26 | | 920' | -38
30' | -3 | | 200' | -15 | | 510' | -27 | | 960' | -49
40' | -4 | | 220' | -16 | | 540' | -28 | | 1000' | -40
50' | -5 | | 240' | -17 | | 570' | -29 | | 1050' | -41
60' | -6 | | 260' | -18 | | 600' | -30 | | 1100' | -42
70' | -7 | | 280' | -19 | | 640' | -31 | | 1150' | -43
80' | -8 | | 300' | -20 | | 680' | -32 | | 1200' | -44
90' | -9 | | 330' | -21 | | 720' | -33 | | 1250' | -45
100' | -10 | | 360' | -22 | | 760' | -34 | | 1300' | -46
120' | -11 | | 390' | -23 | | 800' | -35 | | 1350' | -47
140' | -12 | | 420' | -24 | | 840' | -36 | | 1400' | -48[/TABLE]

This addresses the issue of characters being incapable of perceiving enemies at D&D encounter distances (up to 1440'). -48 is tough to make with up to 23 ranks in Spot or Listen; the -144 of the standard rules is impossible.

[TuggyNE]

The rules for spot are intended to be used for locating creatures that are actively trying to hide or would otherwise be difficult to see. They aren't intended for spotting THE MOON.

Let's not rehash that old thread right now, OK? Let's just say "yeah, it's messed up", accept something like Curmudgeon's fix, and move on.

[Frosty]

But I'm in the same boat; I've made one or two abortive attempts at fleshing out a table, but haven't gotten too far yet.Did you manage to make any more progress on this?

[TuggyNE]

Did you manage to make any more progress on this?

Er, not yet, no. :smallfrown: It's kinda slipped down my to-do list a bit, tbh.