Optimizing Smallness

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I've been wondering this for a while, now... how small can you get in 3.5, and what are the ways of doing so?

For these purposes, assume it only counts if it's your permanent base shape - no just "Shape shift into a flea" answers.

[Callin]

/waves hand

This is not the knowledge you are looking for.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Let's see... off the top of my head, we have a 7th level Psychic Warrior.

Start off as a Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms, starts as Tiny) and manifest an augmented compression to shrink 2 size categories, making you Fine-sized.

[Jeff the Green]

Polymorph any object twice into a quark. Permanent, as small as you can get, and utterly useless.

Edit:

Or make up a new elementary particle one planck-length in diameter and PMAO twice into that.

[Emperor Tippy]

I've been wondering this for a while, now... how small can you get in 3.5, and what are the ways of doing so?

For these purposes, assume it only counts if it's your permanent base shape - no just "Shape shift into a flea" answers.

Shift into a flea, manifest compression to drop two size categories, manifest Astral Seed, kill yourself, come back to life permanently as an extra small flea. :smallwink:

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Sweet. Okay, next question: Is there any way to make such extreme littleitude useful?

[Emperor Tippy]

Sweet. Okay, next question: Is there any way to make such extreme littleitude useful?

As a spy and to **** around with people you dislike. Especially if you throw on invisibility and mind blank. You can also assassinate people pretty easily if you are a caster. Most spells don't care about the casters size at all.

[Slipperychicken]

Sweet. Okay, next question: Is there any way to make such extreme littleitude useful?

Well, I keep hearing people building around the feat Confound the Big Folk, and basically always having your enemy Flat-Footed (swinging at flat-footed AC is just gravy on top of your small-size attack bonus). That could be very nice for a character (ab)using the Iaijutsu Focus/Gnome Quickrazor combo. Perhaps a sneak-attacker (or just a Factotum) using a feat or something to grab IF as a class skill and enjoy the bonus damage?

Being Fine size does give you that nasty +8 tohit and AC (and I guess being smaller would just increase those bonuses exponentially? Not sure if it keeps scaling for lower sizes), so one option is to use Power Attack to more than negate your damage dice=1 problem. Or just never miss. Your choice.

You could gain Total Cover from hiding in your fighter's pockets, although the motion would probably force Concentration checks.

If we keep the small size modifiers scaling past Fine, your carry capacity would be an incredible joke, and also a big obstacle to overcome. So much so that you'd have to permanency Shrink Item just to carry your Portable Hole without collapsing. Not sure how you'd move heavy loot into your extradimensional space.

[shaikujin]

Start with the Kobold on Wizards' website (google for it) which is small but somehow still have 30 feet movement speed.

It also has the "slight frame" trait allowing it to count as 1 size smaller for most things.

Tag on the Dungeonbred template to reduce size by 1 without losing str and con bonus.


Get the giant type (polymorph works), then cast "Return to Nature" (from one of the Eberron books iirc).

If the target is a giant, size is reduced by 1.
Spell duration is instantaneous. So there's no way to dispel or undo this short of a wish.

Cast as many times as required to get reduced to desired size.

Once polymorph wears off, you are still stuck at the reduced size.

You count as 2 size smaller than you really are thanks to "slight frame" and "dungeonbred".

Abuse AC and hide modifiers to size.

Get the willing deformity feat to increase reach back to 5 feet.

Wield a reach weapon sized for you. Say a spiked chain.

Or at least reduced to a size where damage is 1d2.

Do 1d2 crusader.

Profit!

Or act as a guest as part of the symbiotic template, with your new size, you can be a guest to a lot of creatures.

You can probably pass yourself off as a tattoo on the host. Or a birthmark.

For more cheese, look at lycanthrope/tauric/symbiotic template loops.

[JadePhoenix]

This is probably relevant to your interests. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)

[NeoPhoenix0]

i think special mention should go to the spell thunderlance.

it will give you a natural reach of 20 ft. with a weapon that does 3d6 + casting mod damage. pretty impressive for a flea don't you think. :smallwink:

[Chronos]

If you're going to use the Smallest Giant Ever (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109065) trick anyway, then it doesn't matter if you start with kobold or not. Either way, you can get down to whatever the smallest size category is.

[Metahuman1]

There's three ways three ways to make yourself useful at that size.


Straight caster: you don't care. You do magic which makes size matter not. Size is just a nice thing to help you not get targeted/attacked successfully in combat.



Miniature mounted combatant: Get the smallest mount you fancy using that is still bigger then you, a too scale valorous Lance, the ability to use the Leading the Charge Stance and Battle Leaders Charge Maneuver's (Recovered as a Crusader for spam purposes.), Power attack, Shock Trooper, Spirited Charge + Ride by Attack/Fly By attack, And DMM Persisted spells of Lions Charge and Rhinos Rush, then finish with Confound the Bigfolk and Underfoot Combatant. Your charges will be devastating.



Miniture Assassin: The biggest trick here is to find a way to get a pair of Gnome Quick Razors that will make it so it still deals at least one point of base damage. Once you have that, enchant with Merciful, Mage Bane, Healing, Last Resort, Speed and Wounding, and maybe Force if your DM rules it bypasses DR. Dessicated is also a possibility.

Grab Learn Stance: Assassins Stance and Craven on a Factotum, Then pick up TWF line, weapons Finesse, Shadow blade Strike, and Knowledge Devotion. Max Ranks in Iai-Jutsu focus, Knowledge Skills relevant to creatures, Tumble and Stealth Skills. Maybe Craft: Poison Making if you feel it's thematic. Then Pick up Under Foot Combatant and Confound the Bigfolk Feats. Maybe the Mage Slayer Line if you can get the feats available. Use Magic Locations to get throwaway feats to retrain into Font of Inspiration. If you can swing an LA buy off, Tack the Shadow Creature Template onto yourself. Enjoy being the worlds smallest and arguably most lethal assassin.

[kulosle]

Well the bet thing about being so small is the bonus to hit. Your wizard will never miss without having to do any other shenanigans. And you can easily dump all your BAB into power attack without worrying about missing.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hairy Spider Psychic Warrior, get below minimum size at level one.

[TuggyNE]

Depending on exactly how you get so small, your Str score is going to be seriously problematic; any Str poison will likely incapacitate you if you fail a save. Not to mention the difficulty of carting your stuff around; sure, everything is super-light, but your carrying capacity is, like, 3/8 lb.

Is Tenser's floating disk invisible? If so, it's probably the best thing; just make sure your CL is high to avoid dispelling, and stack your pack and stuff on it.

1
I have for a while thought of making a Faery Knight build using Overwhelming Attack Monk or that Ranger combat style (so as to avoid the pesky 13 Str prereq on Power Attack) and then grabbing a feycraft lance and finessing my foes into oblivion with charge multipliers and full power attack. Probably use PsyWar: compression to shrink down to Tiny or Diminutive depending on my starting size, and expansion on my psicrystal to make it large enough to ride. At mid levels, it flies.

[Jeff the Green]

Depending on exactly how you get so small, your Str score is going to be seriously problematic; any Str poison will likely incapacitate you if you fail a save.

Just be undead.

[Vizzerdrix]

Return to Nature and the Eniko. Slap the Primordial template on that and be an Archivist or Cleric Archer. Eniko get longbow proficiency so no need to muck around with the Elf domain

[Metahuman1]

The other great thing is no one will see you coming if you make even a modest investment in stealth.

I advise learn Manuver (or a martial adept dip.) to get a concentration check in place of a will save. Get the Construct Graphs form MM II and optimize your concentration check. This will help fix the Con drawbacks to being so small and should offset the STR drawbacks.


I also advise some sorce of flight and then tacking Pegasuses Sandles form Magic of Incarnum on top of it to make getting places easier.

[Vaz]

Sweet. Okay, next question: Is there any way to make such extreme littleitude useful?

Get yourself swallowed and then summon wolverines or pirahna swarms inside your opponents intestine.

[Chronos]

While Factotum is probably the best way to do it, anything that deals a bunch of bonus damage dice will work fine. Heck, straight rogue would work.