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Freelance Henchman
2006-11-28, 10:45 AM
Thank you! Thank you so much for a great reference to an obscure and oh-so-funny show! (And I don't care who thinks Herman's Head wasn't funny :smallmad:) That just made my morning

I only saw a few episodes of the show but it stayed with me because it was *so* surreal. :smallsmile:

Mathgeek
2006-11-28, 11:07 AM
Hmm...Question. Did anyone else notice that Haley's vanity had an elven ear in the last panel of 381, but that it's gone now?

Alysar
2006-11-28, 11:15 AM
Hmm...Question. Did anyone else notice that Haley's vanity had an elven ear in the last panel of 381, but that it's gone now?

What are you talking about? Vanity's ears aren't even visible beneath her hair in either strip. Intellect is the only one with elven ears.

charik
2006-11-28, 11:15 AM
OK, I've gone back and reread the comic, and I have to say I don't think anyone's posts (mine included) have touched on what is truly at the core of this episode. It's not the debate between Haley's self-loathing and the rest of the mental fragments, it's the debate between her self-loathing and herself. Two central statements:
:haley: I don't know if I'd call this 'living'.
and, after stating that this might be her one chance to find happiness:
:haley: I think that's worth the risk. It might be worth any risk.

We're not truly living unless we open ourselves up to the risk of getting hurt in order to find love and happiness.

I ssoooo need to show these comics to my girlfriend. Who's a redhead like :haley: :smallredface:

Wrecan
2006-11-28, 11:15 AM
That's not an elven ear. That's just the shape of her hair. Compare it to the actual elven ear of the pink-haired Intellect just above Vanity.

Wrecan
2006-11-28, 11:18 AM
I agree with Charik
Here's how I see it going down. Haley takes the chance that the man she thinks is Elan will hurt her. She risks getting hurt. This restores her speech. Then, before they can consummate anything, Xykon invades. In the invasion, Nale is exposed as an imposter. Both escape separately. Xykon, Redcloak and MitD then escape via flying zombie dragon to the Western continent to check out the next gate. OOTS has to rush to save Elan before he is executed.

Mathgeek
2006-11-28, 11:22 AM
Yes, but unless there is a small portion of Vanity's hair that's flesh-toned, there is an ear on the left side of her face. Since the only characters who have ears are the ones with pointy ears, I assumed it was an elf one.

*edit* When I said left side of her face, I meant our left, her right ear. Thanks for that SiD!*edit*

Deuce
2006-11-28, 12:01 PM
It's already been posted in another thread that it, if someone were to sleep with someone under the belief that they are another actual person (not simply "a fighter pilot") with whom they would ordinarily sleep with, it's legally considered rape. At least, in the UK at any rate. Which probably means it would be judged similarly here in Ireland.

As for the US, the specifics would vary from state to state.

Either way, there's legal precident.

Indeed and a hot topic in the state where I live right now, after a high-profile case involving sexual contact through "false representation" was dismissed. There is a very active movement to add fraud and false representation to the Rape and Sexual Assult/Misconduct laws.

Anyway, I'm not too worried about the comic veering that far into that kind of territory - I've plenty of faith that Rich will wrap this up well, while leaving plenty of other threads to follow some other day. :smallsmile:

Wrecan
2006-11-28, 12:23 PM
Yes, but unless there is a small portion of Vanity's hair that's flesh-toned, there is an ear on the left side of her face.

That's not an ear. That's just skin exposed where the hair has parted near her temple.

xyzchyx
2006-11-28, 01:15 PM
Indeed and a hot topic in the state where I live right now, after a high-profile case involving sexual contact through "false representation" was dismissed. There is a very active movement to add fraud and false representation to the Rape and Sexual Assult/Misconduct laws.Can nobody see the huge can of worms that would open?

False representation can mean many things... it could mean lying about who you are, what you do for a living, how much money you have, whether or not you have ever slept with other people, or even your feelings. It could even be interpreted to mean any act of concealing, or even simply failing to reveal, particular (presumably important to the other person) aspects of one's personality or beliefs, whether intentional or not, as the legal system would be unable to objectively and impartially differentiate.

I'm guessing that if this becomes law in your state, then there's going to be a whole crapload of cases started by young adults that are, in fact, simply regretting having had sex with somebody else on the fundamental basis that the other person wasn't who they had initially portrayed themselves to be.

okpokalypse
2006-11-28, 01:45 PM
As a rape survivor, I have to say I'm sick of people dragging out the dictionary definition. There's more to it than that, and even the police will tell you so.

100% Agree with you.


You're not really good at not bringing up the discussion again. But anyway, I checked it up.

1.the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. 2.any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape)

Unless Nale actually points a sword at her, it's not rape. You might CONSIDER it as such, but by the book, it's not.

Not trying to play litigation debate here, but impersonating another person (akin to identity theft) is a felony crime - and is therefore unlawful. To compel is simply to influence in it's most basic sense, an applicable synonym being to coerce. Lastly duress is defined as a "compulsion by threat of force, coercion or constraint." In broader terms it's anything that causes someone to perform an act under a coercive or constraining influence.

So it completely fits the first definition.

Deceiving a woman into having sex where consent would normally not be given is always considered Sexual Assault, it's just not Aggrivated Sexual Assault - which is what forcable rape is.

SiD
2006-11-28, 02:24 PM
Yes, but unless there is a small portion of Vanity's hair that's flesh-toned, there is an ear on the left side of her face. Since the only characters who have ears are the ones with pointy ears, I assumed it was an elf one.
*squints*
Heh, I think you're right. Whoops!

Looks to me like Giant copied Intellect as a base for Vanity, but forgot to delete the ear. I checked in case it might be part of Self-Reliance's white boots showing through, but it's the same shape and location as Intellect's right ear - on the left side of the face as we look at it, but her right ear from her own perspective (which might be why everyone's confused, as they're looking at the jag in Vanity's hair above her left temple).

--EDIT--
This should clear it up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/glyph/misc/vanity_ear.gif

Klio
2006-11-28, 02:36 PM
I vaguely recall an author (male) whose name currently escapes me. When asked how he managed to create such realistic interaction between his female characters he replied that he merely assumed that women, when alone, talked to each other as if they were human beings.
I liked it.
I like too.

On another message forum, someone was talking about having a hard time finding webcomics (or movies or television) where two female characters just talk. And not about sex or boys.

I know this comic doesn't quite count for that (Haley is kind of talking about a boy, though she's really talking about her own forward growth, and she's not really talking to another woman...), but maybe Haley and Miko can go out for lattes later.

Yah, okay, maybe not :smallamused:

fangthane
2006-11-28, 02:47 PM
A few things...
1. For all those claiming to know what is, or is not, unlawful in Azure City... How do you know? Perhaps they only draw the line at magical means, or perhaps their definitions are even more strict than those of our societies. I have no idea, and I'm at a loss to explain how you do.
2. Nothing has yet occurred. Nothing is really likely to occur explicitly at any rate, and in fact it's not likely to come to full fruition regardless. Until it does, any speculation is premature at best.
3. Nale potentially has access to charms - use of that kind of spell would undeniably constitute force - again, if anything actually transpires.
4. The clause "physical force or duress" in the definition Greyscale posted is monolithic and indicates that physical imposition is key to the compulsion. If you have an alternate definition which indicates less physical and more psychological involvement, post it; but if you're arguing using Greyscale's definition, I'm afraid it doesn't substantiate your point of view. Charm Person or Roofies would constitute such physical interference, but I'd contend that simple misrepresentation ("Hi, I'm a doctor!") would not. The twin thing is somewhat different, granted, but that's why the definitions being used are so important to effectively determine the debate's parameters.
4. I wonder just how slinky that black number looks. ;)

Thez
2006-11-28, 03:01 PM
She's Haley's Self-Reliance, as seen in an earlier comic. Self-Loathing is merely mocking her antagonistic counterpart.

peroxide is used as a mild bleach - Self-Reliance's hair IS white/blond/bleached.

Mewtroid
2006-11-28, 03:30 PM
Thanks, everyone, for explaining the 'Peroxide' thing.

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-28, 04:40 PM
Hmm...Question. Did anyone else notice that Haley's vanity had an elven ear in the last panel of 381, but that it's gone now?


Yes, but unless there is a small portion of Vanity's hair that's flesh-toned, there is an ear on the left side of her face. Since the only characters who have ears are the ones with pointy ears, I assumed it was an elf one.


*squints*
Heh, I think you're right. Whoops!

Looks to me like Giant copied Intellect as a base for Vanity, but forgot to delete the ear. I checked in case it might be part of Self-Reliance's white boots showing through, but it's the same shape and location as Intellect's right ear - on the left side of the face as we look at it, but her right ear from her own perspective (which might be why everyone's confused, as they're looking at the jag in Vanity's hair above her left temple).

--EDIT--
This should clear it up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/glyph/misc/vanity_ear.gif
I had to go back and look at this too, but what I think you're all seeing is Self-Reliance's left boot.

Grey Knight
2006-11-28, 04:59 PM
I had to go back and look at this too, but what I think you're all seeing is Self-Reliance's left boot.

If you look in #382 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html), Haley's Self-Reliance has unpatterned boots. I'm in the "copy error from Haley's Intellect" camp!

Macnab
2006-11-28, 05:15 PM
Hello, I discovered OOTS a while ago - spent an evening reading it from the start and have followed it ever since. Finally registered for a post. :smallsmile:

I enjoyed this one a lot, the multiple personality thing is a hoot. I especially liked 'Mistrust', who reminded me of Johnny Tightlips. As for Haley's dominant self-loathing, mistrust, the way she keeps people at arms length, thinks too much, says things nobody understands and is secretly taking care of people, I'm saying nothing. :smallwink:

The only curious thing for me was although we saw Haley's 'Latent Bisexuality' she seemed to be lacking a straightforward libido. Where is it? So many female characters I find, either don't have one, or are punished for having one. Or maybe 'Self-Loathing' and 'Intellect' have completely suppressed it... Anyway, this episode ended sweetly.

For what it's worth, I enjoy the comic a great deal. Looking forward to more. :smallsmile:

Aliquid
2006-11-28, 05:18 PM
4. The clause "physical force or duress" in the definition Greyscale posted is monolithic and indicates that physical imposition is key to the compulsion.He is using a dictionary definition, which is brief and simplified for the sake of fitting into a short description. A subject as complicated and sensitive as this should be using legal definitions.
If you have an alternate definition which indicates less physical and more psychological involvement, post it;Various legal definitions that support the rape argument have been posted on this and other threads. Of course such definitions are different for every legal juristiction, so it is hard to provide a full list that will satisfy everyone.

but I'd contend that simple misrepresentation ("Hi, I'm a doctor!") would not.I don't think anyone is arguing that simple misrepresentation would qualify. Unless I am mistaken, people are talking about actual "identity theft", where the misrepresentation is specific, such as: "Hi, I'm Doctor Nick Riviera. It's nice to finally meet you after our years of mail correspondence". (to clarify, there is a real Dr Nick with whom she has developed a long distance relationship, but this is someone else pretending to be him)

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-28, 05:28 PM
If you look in #382 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html), Haley's Self-Reliance has unpatterned boots. I'm in the "copy error from Haley's Intellect" camp!
What does unpatterned boots have to do with anything? I'm suggesting that the little white protuberence in the bottom circle is just a hint of toe sticking out past Vanity's head. Notice that the protuberance is rounded, not pointy like the elf ear. See how the top of the line seems to reconnect to the head where the elf ear (in the upper circle) has a second distinct line reconnecting to the head.

WAIT A MINUTE! Hold on here. <zooms in to the picture for a closer look>

Hmm, yes. I was mistaken. If you look closely, you can see all of Self-Reliance's left boot through Vanity's head.

Move along, nothing to see here...

SteveMB
2006-11-28, 06:04 PM
The only curious thing for me was although we saw Haley's 'Latent Bisexuality' she seemed to be lacking a straightforward libido. Where is it? So many female characters I find, either don't have one, or are punished for having one. Or maybe 'Self-Loathing' and 'Intellect' have completely suppressed it...
I think that was because the actual flesh-and-blood Haley spoke for her libido (and her desire for love and companionship, which isn't quite the same thing) when she declared that she was going to pursue the opportunity despite the risk.

Xi-1
2006-11-28, 08:19 PM
What's the matter, divine, can't say my nick? Don't worry, my friend, I won't punish you if you were to do so. I like doing these scenarios because they're fun to do and I love getting people's reactions. In the case of the elevator, though, it was suggested by someone else so I just thought 'why not?' I guess yours is a 'why not,' even if someone has said that they like the elevator series. I use the spoiler boxes not because I believe that the content is spoilerish -- I don't, incidentally -- but to reduce the amount of page space the scenarios take up for those who don't want to read them. Did you want to read them?

So while it's not hurting anyone, I'd like to take a vote. Should I continue or discontinue the elevator scenario? I do not wish to repost elsewhere, although it's starting to look like I should start a board dedicated to our scenarios.

And since this post does not contain a scenario, I'll have to go with a phrase.
--------------------
:roy:Elan smart? Has the world turned upside down?

Mathgeek
2006-11-28, 08:55 PM
Thanks to SiD for posting the picture of Vanity's ear. I was going to do it myself, but I was late for class already. I think that it probably was just a copy and paste error, now that someone's suggested that. I kind of wondered when it didn't appear again...

foxtrothacker
2006-11-28, 10:17 PM
first post!
i'm really worried about haley

DeathQuaker
2006-11-28, 11:06 PM
peroxide is used as a mild bleach - Self-Reliance's hair IS white/blond/bleached.

I know that, sweetpea. I was just explaining to the nice person that "Peroxide" wasn't the character's actual name. Do read more carefully next time, 'kay? :smallsmile:

Antina
2006-11-29, 03:13 AM
I like the way, Haleys "childhood"persona always keeps floating up when she´s got something to say.

Nightfall
2006-11-29, 08:49 AM
Let's face it. If one of these two were to be real and trapped in a lift with you, how many would choose the psychopath with the massive over-reaction to any perceived slight over the thief with a kind heart?

I think I'll take my chances with the thief with a kind heart. I'd rather lose my money than my life.

Brianish
2006-11-29, 09:01 AM
The only curious thing for me was although we saw Haley's 'Latent Bisexuality' she seemed to be lacking a straightforward libido. Where is it? So many female characters I find, either don't have one, or are punished for having one. Or maybe 'Self-Loathing' and 'Intellect' have completely suppressed it... Anyway, this episode ended sweetly.



latent  /ˈleɪthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngnt/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[leyt-nt]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective
1.present but not visible, apparent, or actualized; existing as potential: latent ability.
2.Pathology. (of an infectious agent or disease) remaining in an inactive or hidden phase; dormant.
3.Psychology. existing in unconscious or dormant form but potentially able to achieve expression: a latent emotion.

Zeb The Troll
2006-11-29, 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by Macnab http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1610409#post1610409)
The only curious thing for me was although we saw Haley's 'Latent Bisexuality' she seemed to be lacking a straightforward libido. Where is it? So many female characters I find, either don't have one, or are punished for having one. Or maybe 'Self-Loathing' and 'Intellect' have completely suppressed it... Anyway, this episode ended sweetly.latent  /ˈleɪthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngnt/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[leyt-nt]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective
1.present but not visible, apparent, or actualized; existing as potential: latent ability.
2.Pathology. (of an infectious agent or disease) remaining in an inactive or hidden phase; dormant.
3.Psychology. existing in unconscious or dormant form but potentially able to achieve expression: a latent emotion.
I think that's what he means. We've seen a suppressed aspect but not the active, straightforward aspect. Moreover, since Elan is male, it seems that the straight libido would have a more vested interest in the current goings on than the suppressed bisexual one. Unless the intended message is that her sexuality is latent and it happens to be bi. :smallcool:

Brianish
2006-11-29, 09:39 AM
Haley's bisexuality is latent. She doesn't have a non-latent bisexual aspect. If she did, she would just be bisexual.

Caractacus
2006-11-29, 10:02 AM
Xi-1, They're pretty funny and it's a good idea to 'spoilerise' them (Why should Americans be the only ones to have making-verbs-of-nouns fun?). That way, those who wish to skip them, can. *support*

prometheusx
2006-11-29, 12:01 PM
See, now that's what I call great character development. If the Giant had been writing the screenplays, Episodes II and III woudn't have sucked so hard. He can go wherever he wants with this: Haley could become completely homicidal, or become cured, or whatever.

Grey Knight
2006-11-29, 12:12 PM
I think I'll take my chances with the thief with a kind heart. I'd rather lose my money than my life.

Your GP or your HP! (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010311)

~The Patriots~
2006-11-29, 01:51 PM
Haley's bisexuality is latent. She doesn't have a non-latent bisexual aspect. If she did, she would just be bisexual.

hasn't she kissed a girl before?

Cryptarch
2006-11-29, 02:24 PM
hasn't she kissed a girl before?

That doesn't necesarily make her an active bisexual, though it does show a good reason for Latent Bisexuality to be among her head-dwellers. :smallwink:

~The Patriots~
2006-11-29, 04:19 PM
That doesn't necesarily make her an active bisexual, though it does show a good reason for Latent Bisexuality to be among her head-dwellers. :smallwink:

yeah, I didn't think so either, (hence the "hide in the corner" part). Acctually I just wanted to confirm the fact

Master_Kindel
2006-11-29, 05:10 PM
The comic in no way endorses the manipulation and objectification of women. Actually it shows that this is the behavior of a pathetic and evil man.

I agree whole-heartedly

keybounce
2006-11-29, 05:25 PM
All this talk about how the comic has gone downhill. Let me just give my two copper.

Yes, if you look at the first dozen or so comics, you have simple one-shot gags and rule jokes. Things like finding the bathrooms (never seen in most dungeons), automated prayers, etc.

But then, the plot was introduced. Yes, plot. You know, a reason for running down in that dungeon -- an evil villan. And, a plot twist -- the linear guild, someone for them to fight.

Well, plots have a tendency to grow. Every author knows this. You create characters. Give them motivations. You have plans for them.

And then they go and do whatever they feel like. Yes, you created them, but you don't control them. The characters take on a life of their own.

And the plot? Sure, as an author you try to control it. You tug it this way, or that. Arguments develop, as your characters ideas and wants don't match your plans for the script. They fight amoung themselves, arguing over who gets what loot, or something. And with each argument, there's a snag in the development of the plot.

And the plot grows. More complex, more involved.

Until it strikes. The plot complications. The author has been written into a corner, and has to either (A) rewrite several scripts (if a leading buffer was done), or (B) pull a deus -- deis -- deux -- god like machine out of a hat (Hello Amber!) to save things.

And the author starts over. Learning. Improving. The second story starts with better control. The characters are kept under better control. Less randomness, as more things are planned in advance. The chaoticness of an out of control plot are contrained, and hopefully contained.

But no matter how carefully the author plans, the characters still have their own plans. And plot holes develop. Plot holes that force the author to either force the adventure down one path, or let the characters do what they will.

And while attempts are made to fix it up, the fix is inevitable less than perfect. There's always something left behind for readers to pick over, dispute, argue over. Complaints about how detail such-and-such wasn't handled perfectly. Little gaps. Corners cut here and there.

And arguments there are. Like we see here on this forum. Huge disputes about the proper way to deal with things -- kill this person? Turn that person? Perhaps the fans form subgroups, each convinved of the one true way to save the story, each different from the other.

Reread 273-277 at the same time as this post
Plot does not ruin a story. It changes it, yes. It becomes less of one strip gags, and more of "What will happen next?" tension that keeps people coming back to the strip time and time again.

charik
2006-11-29, 07:15 PM
So keybounce, what you're saying is that the Snarl is the gods' Plot getting out of control?:smalltongue: Sorry, couldn't help thinking of it while reading your post.

PhoenixRising
2006-11-29, 07:32 PM
I like too.

On another message forum, someone was talking about having a hard time finding webcomics (or movies or television) where two female characters just talk. And not about or boys.

I know this comic doesn't quite count for that (Haley is kind of talking about a boy, though she's really talking about her own forward growth, and she's not really talking to another woman...), but maybe Haley and Miko can go out for lattes later.

Yah, okay, maybe not :smallamused:

Hmmm...

SCENE: ASTRALBUCKS COFFEE
:miko:Is Belkar evil?
:haley: SILENCE
:miko:Is Belkar evil?
:haley: Maybe. Isn't Elan hot?
:miko:I don't know. Is Belkar evil?

:belkar: OUTSIDE WINDOW Yes.
:miko:Is Belkar evil?
:haley: Maybe. Say, have you ever been on an elevator?

LurkerBeneath
2006-11-29, 09:28 PM
What I really think will happen here is that while on this dinner date with Nale, she will be about to kiss him, she will finally make a decent spot check and notice the patch of hair on his chin, and come to the right conclusion. Her voice will return, having looked at this apparent gift horse an inch or so _BELOW_ his mouth, and her first coherent utterance will be "Nale!", and she will head butt him.

I'm not sure Spot is the correct skill here. My guess is that she will kiss Nale and feel the scratchy remains of his beard against her face.

-LB

CindyKay
2006-11-30, 01:26 AM
I completely disagree - politely, of course - with Dagoth.
That said, I must say that poor Haley certainly seems to have more than her share of problems - a mental breakdown of some sort which caused her to speak in a manner totally unintelligible to the rest of the OotS crew, unrequited love for Elan, about to be used by Nale, and now her psyche has splintered into all of its most disagreeable aspects?
I can't wait to see where The Giant is going with this storyline.
On the up-side Miko did get pounded by the "thing under the umbrella".

Darkspear
2006-11-30, 01:34 AM
Yes, if you look at the first dozen or so comics, you have simple one-shot gags and rule jokes. Things like finding the bathrooms (never seen in most dungeons), automated prayers, etc.

But the bathroom joke was 86, well after the Linear Guild plot and our main plot was already established.

consul
2006-12-01, 05:08 PM
That's not an ear. That's just skin exposed where the hair has parted near her temple.

I'd say that it is the front of the other boot. All of the girls are transluscent and overlapping with each other, and within each other.