OOTS #382 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 06:12 AM

My first post on these forums, been reading OOTS since the very beginning.

I'm not a big fan of how things are currently going in OOTS. Hayley's lost voice has become annoying, she's been relegated to a secondary character. I think the subplot should have been resolved months ago. A lot of the storylines feel a bit dragged out this year.

I had a bad feeling about things as soon as Nale switched places with Elan. I knew exactly where the storyline was heading, and now I'm right. What I see happening is Haley falling for Nale's ploy, then when the truth is revealed, we'll have another year of angst because she won't feel comfortable being with Elan afterwards.

This element of the Evil-Twin style plot is so overdone I'd hoped we wouldn't see it, not to mention it introduces a very, very dark story element. We're basically being led to expect that Haley may end up sleeping with someone whom she would otherwise hate and despise, because she won't realise what she's doing. I like my comedy, and storytelling, a little bit lighter than that.

I've been a huge fan of OOTS for years, but the quality of the storytelling is really suffering at the moment. It's a shame.

DarkLightDragon

2006-11-27, 06:13 AM

Maybe the Intellect looks like an elf because V is smart, and Haley is friends with V. I noticed that the Mistrust, as well as wearing full armour, seems to behave similarly to Miko. I reckon the Red and Green represent anger and peace/happines (because Red looks pretty ticked off).

I reckon what will happen is that although Haley knows that "Elan" (Nale-Elan) might not really be Elan (we already know he's not, but that's not the point here), she won't find out the whole truth 'til it's nearly too late, then find some way to save herself at the last second. Or the rest of the OOTS will arrive. Or someone will use Detect Evil. Or Sabine appearing an an inopportune monent :smallbiggrin:

Great comic by the way! Loved the conversation between the different Haleys!

Mr._Wilson

2006-11-27, 06:19 AM

How is that Ironic?

In this case it's dramatic irony. That is to say, quoted from the dictionary: "The dramatic effect achieved by leading an audience to understand an incongruity between a situation and the accompanying speeches, while the characters in the play remain unaware of the incongruity."

The irony is that should she have chosen to be suspicious of Nale's gift and speech, she would not be endangered.

SiD

2006-11-27, 06:27 AM

Woo, early comic and king-sized fun! Nice one, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

Love all the introspective conversations going on inside poor Haley's head. Well, now she's made her conscious decision to do what the Oracle told her, I guess her speech will be back to normal in short order. I'm conveniently overlooking the fact that the Oracle didn't say when her speech would be restored, just that 'what [Haley] could do to restore [her] speech' was to not look the gift horse in the mouth... Didn't say it would be a pleasant process either... :smalleek:

Looks like that clears up a lot of the multiple personality traits, too. Should've seen "Haley's Latent Bisexuality" coming from her date with Elan... :lol:

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 06:28 AM

Dramatic irony is very different from irony.

Haley going for dinner with Nale, thinking he's Elan, is dramatic irony.

Haley deciding NOT to go to dinner with Nale, being suspicious, then Elan turning up, getting Nale out of the way, and taking his place at dinner, waiting on his own for Haley, THAT would be ironic.

SDF

2006-11-27, 06:29 AM

Where is admiral Ackbar when you need him?

hewhosaysfish

2006-11-27, 06:31 AM

Other people can say what they like, I enjoy the "angsty" getting-inside-a-character's-psyche angle, especially in a comedy.

And wordmaker: I don't think it is going to get that dark. I don't know how or why, but it's just not in the style off OOTSv and the Giant to lead us into that sort of territory.

Also...

well she is one of the most dominant aspects, which is also shown by how scruffy vanity is

I don't think Vanity is scruffy because she's a necglected element of Haley's mind but because whenever Haley looks in a mirror (regardless of how she looks) Vanity says "Eek, my hair looks like a hay-stack!" Because Vanity and Insecuruty are twin sisters , you know.

Silverblaze

2006-11-27, 06:31 AM

On the ironic part, I find the fact that she is able to think of a doubleganger, but not Nale, very much so - Sheesh... And I must say - the thought of an existential discussion between mental constructs is pretty funny *G* Good one, Mr. G :-D

Sir_Norbert

2006-11-27, 06:34 AM

Weird....... I could swear the second half wasn't up the first time I looked!

Wonderful stuff though! Answers so many questions, and I'm glad to know I was *right* about one of the things I've been most vehement about! :)

Selvan

2006-11-27, 06:34 AM

@ Wordmaker: Relax! What you're experiencing here is called 'tension' - something that's rarely found in web-comics. You should really try to appreciate it.

You have made it this far and Rich has never let you down. I trust in him to sort things out in a funny and surprising way once again. Do you really expect to see a comic with Haley and Nale in bed? I don't think so.

Can't wait until Wednesday...

armatil

2006-11-27, 06:36 AM

Poor Haley. Ironic she chooses this one time to drop her walls. This can't end well.

aye. in real life choosing to drop your walls is done at the exact wrong moment 50% of the time.

i comedy, it's 100%.

great comic. loved all the personalities. (hehe, peroxide :smallbiggrin: ) and the overall tone of self-loathing. i laughed thoroughly.

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 06:37 AM

Other people can say what they like, I enjoy the "angsty" getting-inside-a-character's-psyche angle, especially in a comedy.

And wordmaker: I don't think it is going to get that dark. I don't know how or why, but it's just not in the style off OOTSv and the Giant to lead us into that sort of territory.

I don't mind getting into a character's psyche. I just think certain subplots have gone on past the point where they do anything for the enjoyment of the story. It's the difference between saying "I can't wait to see how Haley gets her voice back," and "I can't wait until Haley finally gets her voice back," you know?

I really hope I'm wrong in how this plot is going to go. Tension is fine, but if this is just a long trudge through an over-used plot hook which only leads to pain for the characters, I'll be very disappointed.

Dagoth

2006-11-27, 06:41 AM

Shatteredtower

2006-11-27, 06:42 AM

I had a bad feeling about things as soon as Nale switched places with Elan. I knew exactly where the storyline was heading, and now I'm right.

I think it's still too early to declare a victory here.

What I see happening is Haley falling for Nale's ploy, then when the truth is revealed, we'll have another year of angst because she won't feel comfortable being with Elan afterwards.

This being a good reason for my earlier doubts. The Giant's thrown a few good curves at the end of several "predictable" events of this nature before.

This element of the Evil-Twin style plot is so overdone I'd hoped we wouldn't see it, not to mention it introduces a very, very dark story element.

Nale stabbed Elan through the chest. Betrayal by your own brother is as dark as it comes. I'd personally take bedroom farce over fratricide any day.

As for the evil twin style plot, this is Nale we're talking about. He couldn't avoid that cliche with clear instructions and bright lights to warn him off. He isn't just the evil twin -- he's the megalomaniacal, self-centered, evil twin. That was established long ago, back during his first inner monologue.

Marius

2006-11-27, 06:46 AM

Worst strip in a long long time or maybe someone just casted "Ray of stupidity" on Haley.

blackout

2006-11-27, 06:46 AM

I don't mind getting into a character's psyche. I just think certain subplots have gone on past the point where they do anything for the enjoyment of the story. It's the difference between saying "I can't wait to see how Haley gets her voice back," and "I can't wait until Haley finally gets her voice back," you know?

I really hope I'm wrong in how this plot is going to go. Tension is fine, but if this is just a long trudge through an over-used plot hook which only leads to pain for the characters, I'll be very disappointed.

Same thing. The whole Haley-cryptogram bit got old a LOOOOOONG time ago.

Grey Knight

2006-11-27, 06:50 AM

well she is one of the most dominant aspects, which is also shown by how scruffy vanity is

Why does everyone think Haley's Vanity is scruffy? I think she's quite good-looking. :smallwink: :smallwink: :nudge: :nudge:

Where is admiral Ackbar when you need him?

http://www2.47ronin.com:8080/fark/ackbar.jpg[/obligatory]

Antina

2006-11-27, 07:03 AM

I´m quite curious on the outcome of THAT Plotline! Keep going Mr. Burlew! ^_^

Nerd-o-rama

2006-11-27, 07:09 AM

Early-morning OotS! Glee!

And here's me on the second page anyway...

Anyway, this fits in exactly with how I would expect a desperate love-stricken person to act, i.e. stupid. This shows just how desperate her emotional state has become. I'm still confident (technically a spoiler coming here) that Nale will blow it, or Elan will ride to the rescue in time.

Yay for Haley's personality aspects! Well, they're moronic, but yay for meeting new ones! Especially Haley's Latent Bisexuality!

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 07:17 AM

It's not tension, it's frustration. The storyline is dragging, and it's getting dull.

Thing is, I know Rich can do better than this. He has done in the past.

Archonic Energy

2006-11-27, 07:24 AM

Suspision: What's your angle...

LOL.

Blood

2006-11-27, 07:29 AM

And the tension builds.

Haley's not part elf. I bet (and sorry if someone already said this) that her intellect only looks elven because she knows elves (Vaarsuvius) with large vocabulary and 18 intellects. :smallwink:

TheWarBlade

2006-11-27, 07:30 AM

Greed: WE NEED TO COUNT MORE GOLD PEOPLE!

Maybe Tiefling?

The honest illusionist

2006-11-27, 07:30 AM

Maybe this comic is one of those hit or miss situations. I found this comic to be way above par. It shows Haley speaking, or rather thinking in perfect english yet it doesn't explain what the oracles precognition had to do with it.

So they way I see it is, this arc still has many questions left unanswered, but there still was a payoff to this strip.

If anyone disagrees with me, then fine. That's your call.

Ascobol

2006-11-27, 07:43 AM

I love the introduction of numerous other parts of Haley's subconcious. :elan:

I wonder if Elan might have other selves...

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 07:44 AM

I wouldn't count brotherly betrayal as being darker than a plotline hinting at the potential for what amounts to rape.

Death in a setting like this isn't as real as it is in the real world. One side-quest later and a Raise Dead spell is all you need. What Nale is planning to do has traumatic emotional consequences that will affect the comic for years to come.

Castamir

2006-11-27, 07:46 AM

Shut up, whiners. Seriously.

OOTS is at an all-time high. The tension is so high that Rich's bandwidth must be bursting at seams due to the mad reloading. Not everything is action.
Sure, I've been madly reloading Schlock this way at the times of Sweet Mother of Swamp Monkeys mainly due to action, but here we got the anticipation built up due to 4536830968 plots at once instead.

If you're looking for dumb one-strip gags as unfunny as pie-in-the-face, you know where to find them.

Great job, Rich!

Fenix

2006-11-27, 07:48 AM

Natrally the storytelling dynamics and comedy charge decline. You have plenty of ideas when you start some project, and it is understandable that you are running out of them during the time. It happens to other classics than Giant, escpecially in the comedy genre - Terry Pratchet or HTF being typical examples.
It is the natural progress and good fan should at least try to understand it. It is ungratefull to talk about "shame" as long as author doesnt get awkward (then author should retire) - and that sure isnt the case of Giant. There is one graet joke in three strips instead of three great jokes in one strip. I can live with that, because i simply like OOTS and the great old strips are not getting worse or anything.

Elcaz

2006-11-27, 07:50 AM

Wow. When you phrase everything like this comic did, Haley's choice makes perfect sense.

Maglor_Grubb

2006-11-27, 07:51 AM

One of the better strips, realy.

DeathQuaker

2006-11-27, 07:55 AM

Awesome. I have to say, honestly, I'm one of the folks who thought Haley's subplot with the dysphasia should have been resolved about 100 issues ago, but... well, I think where this is going, a number of plotlines are about to be resolved.

Hee hee, Haley's Latent Bisexuality. I'll date her! :)

Loved the "Intellect" too. Clearly V's friendship with Haley has influenced her. (But I wonder if Haley ought to find a way to discuss this with V anyway. And speaking of which... Haley speaks in gibberish, but does she write in gibberish?)

Khantalas

2006-11-27, 07:55 AM

Why does Haley's Vanity look kind of plain?

Martichoras

2006-11-27, 08:00 AM

This strip was good enough to make me register, and post for the first time. I really enjoyed it, and am a big fan of Haley's self-loathing. I certainly do not think there has been a drop in the quality of the jokes, or the comics as a whole, and I greatly appreciate that the Giant is posting at a steady pace.

I am glad that the Giant has been keeping Haley's forays into mental disorders silly.

Crusher

2006-11-27, 08:05 AM

Count me in with the folks who liked the strip. While the Haley introspection stuff isn't my favorite part of the strip, discussion happened that needed to happen, and the Giant disposed of all of it in a single strip. What could be better than that?

Additionally, the Giant has been pumping out strips at an extraordinary rate the last few weeks. I wonder if it means he has something big he's building towards and is chomping at the bit to lay it on us.

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 08:06 AM

Shut up, whiners. Seriously.

Unless I'm told I'm violating a forum rule by voicing my opinion, no. If you want to engage me in an actual discussion about the merits and flaws of the strip, feel free.

I'm not saying OOTS needs to be a laugh-a-minute. I just believe that this year's storylines and subplots have been pretty poor in comparison to previous ones. There is no reason, dramatically, narratively, or even in terms of entertainment, why Haley doesn't have her voice back. The kidnap of Roy's sister was a long build-up, and too long a conclusion, for what was nothing more than a lead-in to the current Evil Twin Identity Switch. We didn't even see Roy's sister for more than a strip or two after the Linear Guild were defeated. I felt she deserved more time than that.

OOTS is still funny. I'm not disputing that. It's the story I'm criticising. To quote the strip, it's becoming full of "that emo crap." I mean, what was the purpose of the letter to Durkon being destroyed, if not to make the reader feel sorry for Durkon? We already know he was ushered away unfairly, there's no need to rub salt in the wound by telling us that he'll never know about his once chance to go home. I felt that the scene where we see him happy that he'll at least be buried with his ancestors was enough to settle that issue.

SiD

2006-11-27, 08:08 AM

Having only really 'discovered' OOTS very recently and having read through the entire archive in a day or two so the whole thing's fresh in my mind, I really don't see a decline in this strip compared to the earlier ones. Sure, that may not make me particularly qualified to talk about it, but it looks to me like a little thing called 'evolution' - the characters grow and develop, and naturally the readers come to care about them. So the strips start to focus on using the characters to drive the stories, rather than using them as faceless ciphers in a situation-driven gag reel. Me, I'm loving all of Haley's internal dialogues (multilogues?). (@Fenix: I much prefer Pratchett's more mature blend of satire and dry wit in the more recent books to the slapstick of the early ones - it's also clear why he diverged into 'older' and 'younger' streams. But that's an entirely separate topic...)

BTW - why would Haley (or anyone else) immediately be suspicious of Nale? As far as they know, Nale isn't on the loose so they wouldn't be watching out for him: they saw him get dragged away by the CPPD in Cliffport. Case closed, as far as they know.

Oh yeah... and of course most of Haley's character personifications seem stupid - they're each only one facet of her subconscious mind and don't work together well. They don't have the balance and blend of thought patterns that Haley herself, as a whole, does - and Haley herself is deliberately not second-guessing the situation and is riding the wave in the hope that it will go somewhere good.

--EDIT--

I mean, what was the purpose of the letter to Durkon being destroyed, if not to make the reader feel sorry for Durkon? We already know he was ushered away unfairly, there's no need to rub salt in the wound by telling us that he'll never know about his once chance to go home.
Dramatic irony? Poor guy's already had to send away a woman he fell in love with, then got some measure of happiness by learning that he'll return to his people in death even if not in life... then we (as readers) learn that he'll never know he could go back any time he wanted to? Reading that, my response was, "Oh man... gutted."

Grod_The_Giant

2006-11-27, 08:09 AM

:eek: run, Haley, run!! No, don't put on that dress!

am I the only one that notices that her self-loathing is smarter then the rest of her?

Wulfric

2006-11-27, 08:13 AM

So - has #Haley# sorted out her speech problem, or is it all in her mind (so to speak)?

Flak_Razorwill

2006-11-27, 08:14 AM

Wowzers. That was early. Cool!

I'm thinking this was done to cut all of our wild guessing off at the pass. We now have specific names for all off out Haley head-bits.

And if I were in her shoes, I'd go on the date just to see what as happening. Besides, if there was really a pod person, it'd be in public, right?

Unless she goes to his room...

ARGH!

On a side note, Haley is also confirmed to be slowly going insane.

SiD

2006-11-27, 08:21 AM

So - has #Haley# sorted out her speech problem, or is it all in her mind (so to speak)?
She still only speaks clearly in her own mind.

Miklus

2006-11-27, 08:24 AM

...Peroxide... :)

I don't think the quality of the strip has dropped at all. I like this Nale-in-the-party subplot. Mostly because i like Nale, he is a badass. And he adds a lot of tension, or danger, to the story. You just don't know what he might do next.

I also enjoyed the Miko-in-the-tower-part, some of the best jokes ever in there.

I just hope Haley gets her speech back soon, there are so many good jokes she could be making.

Cult_of_the_Raven

2006-11-27, 08:32 AM

shes gonna get stabbed. no haley! don't follow nale! you'll get stabbed! 'first alone first killed'! he's gonna get you!

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 08:33 AM

Dramatic irony? Poor guy's already had to send away a woman he fell in love with, then got some measure of happiness by learning that he'll return to his people in death even if not in life... then we (as readers) learn that he'll never know he could go back any time he wanted to? Reading that, my response was, "Oh man... gutted."

That's my point exactly. The character's been put through the ringer, more than just about any other OOTS character. Therefore the lost letter serves only to make everyone feel sorry for Durkon. We already have enough reason to feel sorry for him. Does this information progress the storyline? No. Does it develop Durkon's character? No.

Now, would a different way of doing it not be to allow Durkon to receive the letter, but by the time he does, he realises that his place isn't with the dwarves, but with his friends? Surely that would be an interesting development of his character, that he chooses to stay, and do the right thing, even when the one thing he's always wanted is presented to him?

Adeptus

2006-11-27, 08:37 AM

Absolutely brilliant Rich!

You have me on the edge of my seat here. The current plot sequense is possibly my favorite in the whole run of OotS to date. I love deep character developent, and the wording and pacing here are just right.

You are also sticking to your schedule most commendably.

Both thumbs up!

Fenix

2006-11-27, 08:41 AM

(@Fenix: I much prefer Pratchett's more mature blend of satire and dry wit in the more recent books to the slapstick of the early ones - it's also clear why he diverged into 'older' and 'younger' streams. But that's an entirely separate topic...)

Yeah, it is the matter of opinion. And what do you want/expect of some particlar author. I cant even say I like the "epic" ways (of Giant, Pratechett..) any less than "pure comedy". That is why I was talking about "storytelling dynamics and comedy charge" rather than overall quality. But if I look on the OOTS strictly empirically, I laught much more reading the early (that is like first 300 or so :smallbiggrin:) ones. And laught is what I want most from OOTS.

Adeptus

2006-11-27, 08:48 AM

.
<snip>
OOTS is still funny. I'm not disputing that. It's the story I'm criticising. To quote the strip, it's becoming full of "that emo crap." I mean, what was the purpose of the letter to Durkon being destroyed, if not to make the reader feel sorry for Durkon? We already know he was ushered away unfairly, there's no need to rub salt in the wound by telling us that he'll never know about his once chance to go home. I felt that the scene where we see him happy that he'll at least be buried with his ancestors was enough to settle that issue.

*sigh* everybody's got an opinion, and the ones full of "constructive criticism" most of all.

If you were the artist behind the comic, do you think such postings would be welcome, and encourage you to keep putting your creative energies to the _free_ product? What is it with you people and your focus on the negative?

Besides the current storyline is the best one yet. Seriously. Deep character development, delivered with a good dose of ironic sillyness.

Maerad of Pellinor

2006-11-27, 08:58 AM

How come everyone hates this comic so much? It's one of my favorites, and made me (finally) decide to register after reading the forum for about three months! :smallsmile:

I reeeeeeealy hope Haley gets her voice back soon (not looking the gift horse in the mouth and going on the date anyway)! :smallbiggrin:

Great comic!

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 09:01 AM

If I were the artist behind this comic, or a writer on a series of novels, or an actor in a film, I'd want every form of feedback I could get. Yes, OOTS is a free strip, but it's also part of Rich's career. If fans don't comment with all of their opinions, how can he know what choices will result in successful storylines, and therefore a more successful business?

There are a lot of good things happening in OOTS. Xykon is back (at last!). Brilliant. I love Xykon. Nale's a very plain villain, and there's not so much real joy in him as there is in Xykon. Xykon loves being what he is. He has a solid plan, the wisdom to build up his strength in secret, and the power to represent something truly evil.

Miko in the tower was great. Plenty of reason to still hate her, and we finally got something to back up Xykon's faith in the Creature in the Darkness (another plot element which has been left to drag for so long that any anticipation of what it is has gone). At this point, the only thing that can possibly redeem the idea that the CITD is some incredibly unspeakable horror is if it turns out it's a gazebo.

Drerek

2006-11-27, 09:12 AM

Wow, is it just me or is Haley's self loathing more intelligent than her intellect? (Is that even possible, within the realms of a slowly fracturing mind anyway?)

Difference between Intelligence and Wisdom.

I'm such a D&D geek.:smallsmile:

Brianish

2006-11-27, 09:19 AM

If I were the artist behind this comic, or a writer on a series of novels, or an actor in a film, I'd want every form of feedback I could get.

Scrubbing bubbles.

The Glitter Ninja

2006-11-27, 09:25 AM

How come everyone hates this comic so much?

I suspect it's because it's focused on a female character and her feelings. This forum doesn't have a lot of kind words for the female characters sometimes, and I often wonder if it's solely because they're female. I don't actually know this to be true, mind you, but I do speculate sometimes, mainly because I have a case of The Bitter.

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 09:25 AM

My opinions have nothing to do with the gender of any of the characters.

WarriorTribble

2006-11-27, 09:28 AM

The feedback that has any importance is how well the products sell. Anything else is various personal opinions, and isn't important as long as it's not being trollish.

Back on topic I liked this strip. I found the dialogs between the fractured psyches amusing, but not really deep. Maybe because I tend to think the same way, well minus the partitioned personas.

SiD

2006-11-27, 09:31 AM

That's my point exactly. The character's been put through the ringer, more than just about any other OOTS character. Therefore the lost letter serves only to make everyone feel sorry for Durkon. We already have enough reason to feel sorry for him. Does this information progress the storyline? No. Does it develop Durkon's character? No.
So... nothing can exist for its own sake, but must develop plot and/or character to be valid? That might hold for a short story format, where every word has to count for something, but an ongoing webcomic is a very different beast. It certainly doesn't stand up to the idea that the strip should be full of jokes/humour, which by nature are usually inconsequential. Besides, we don't have every reason to feel sorry for Durkon - yes, he lost his love, but that was a long time ago now and he's shown no signs of not being over it. The most recent bit of real development we had for him was a happy event, from his POV at least.

Does the loss of the letter hinder development of Durkon's character? No. Does it increase the reader's empathy for the character? Yes. Might this information actually turn out to be important later on - for example, to provide a note of dramatic irony or tension if for any reason the Oracle's proclamation and the actual situation should come into conflict? We don't know. Does the addition of this hook - particularly in a strip that was more about the CITD anyway - actually cause any harm? IMO, no.

I just hope Haley gets her speech back soon, there are so many good jokes she could be making.
She's still making them, you just have to put the effort in to solve the cryptograms. To wit:
:haley: "You can't understand me, so let me just say that you're a frigid bitch and your thighs look fat in that armor."
Classic. :biggrin:

Sengoku

2006-11-27, 09:39 AM

Wonderful one, giant!!

Please keep up the good work :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 09:41 AM

I have never said that every strip should be all jokes and humour.

I simply see no point in revealing the letter. The CITD has been kept hidden from the OOTS for years, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon, it's become the basis of the creature's presence in the comic. Maybe, if Miko happened to have read the letter before losing it, the information might get to Durkon. But, given the timing of the strip, it merely adds to the overall sense of despair. Despair, as a dramatic device, is only entertaining so long as hope still exists. Otherwise it overloads, and the reader has little reason to continue reading, other than to keep and seeing how bad things get.

Even in the current Nale/Haley plot, there is the hope that somehow Elan will set himself free and save the day, or someone else might figure out Nale's ruse. The lost letter was a throwaway plot element. Personally, I don't find characters endeering because a lot of bad things that they can't control happen to them. I find them endeering because, even though bad things happen, they stand fast. They remain true and fight on, choosing the difficult path over the easy one, because it's the right thing to do.

That's one reason why I absolutely loved the strip after the Oracle, where despite knowing that he would never see his homeland again, Durkon was happy.

TroyXavier

2006-11-27, 09:44 AM

I loved it. If Haley is goign to get her voice back(and we know she will), it needs to be dramatic. This plotline looks like it will pay in spades. Haley is so blinded by love right now, hopefully she'll recover in time to stop Nale's advances.

Trobby

2006-11-27, 09:45 AM

Wow, is it just me or is Haley's self loathing more intelligent than her intellect? (Is that even possible, within the realms of a slowly fracturing mind anyway?)

Methinks that Haley's Intellect has a few too many points invested in "Intelligence", not so many into "Wisdom". While Haley's Self-Loathing has more points than the currently presiding mental figments.

After all, if anyone knows that Haley knows nothing, it'd be her Self-Loathing. :smallbiggrin:

That's my point exactly. The character's been put through the ringer, more than just about any other OOTS character. Therefore the lost letter serves only to make everyone feel sorry for Durkon. We already have enough reason to feel sorry for him. Does this information progress the storyline? No. Does it develop Durkon's character? No.

Now, would a different way of doing it not be to allow Durkon to receive the letter, but by the time he does, he realises that his place isn't with the dwarves, but with his friends? Surely that would be an interesting development of his character, that he chooses to stay, and do the right thing, even when the one thing he's always wanted is presented to him?

Ahh, but that's not nearly as interesting as Durkon losing a letter. And maybe, juuuust maybe, because nobody ever told him otherwise, heading back to his dwarven homelands by his own decision, creating a whole NEW plotline, and proving that, in fact, the Giant had planned MUCH further ahead than you had thought.

Also, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes a bit, but I think you're overreacting to this particular strip. To paraphrase some wise words, "Just repeat to yourself 'it's just a webcomic, I should really just relax'".

I love the introduction of numerous other parts of Haley's subconcious. :elan:

I wonder if Elan might have other selves...

Ahhh, but he has, my friend. He most certainly has...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

Granted, they don't LOOK like Elan, but who ever said his mind was that complex? :3

Alamark Fireworker

2006-11-27, 09:46 AM

nooo!! Haly!! don't do it!! its not who you think it is!!! rats... she can't hear me can she? T_T i hope this comes out good... *bites fingernails*

*finishes fingernails and grabs my brother's hands....*

Faramir

2006-11-27, 09:52 AM

Cryptarch

2006-11-27, 09:54 AM

Unless I'm told I'm violating a forum rule by voicing my opinion, no. If you want to engage me in an actual discussion about the merits and flaws of the strip, feel free.

I'm not saying OOTS needs to be a laugh-a-minute. I just believe that this year's storylines and subplots have been pretty poor in comparison to previous ones. There is no reason, dramatically, narratively, or even in terms of entertainment, why Haley doesn't have her voice back. The kidnap of Roy's sister was a long build-up, and too long a conclusion, for what was nothing more than a lead-in to the current Evil Twin Identity Switch. We didn't even see Roy's sister for more than a strip or two after the Linear Guild were defeated. I felt she deserved more time than that.

OOTS is still funny. I'm not disputing that. It's the story I'm criticising. To quote the strip, it's becoming full of "that emo crap." I mean, what was the purpose of the letter to Durkon being destroyed, if not to make the reader feel sorry for Durkon? We already know he was ushered away unfairly, there's no need to rub salt in the wound by telling us that he'll never know about his once chance to go home. I felt that the scene where we see him happy that he'll at least be buried with his ancestors was enough to settle that issue.

Well, I have been resisting registering for some time, but ah well, I really felt a need to reply to this. You are more than welcome to your opinion, as everyone should be, but I must respectfully dissagree with what you are saying.
Sure, the story has its ups and downs (I currently think it's in an up-swing, but that's just me) but all stories do. I didn't much like the Azure City comics compared to the earlier ones, but others liked them and that is enough for me. You complain about the dark humor. Ok, dark humor isn't your cup of tea, but then why do you read this? It has always had very dark elements (Belkar, need I say more? Anyone remember a comment about killing and robbing sentient beings because they have green skin and the party doesn't?). This is a very funny comic, but it has some depth to it too, and some dark, wry, ironic humor, which is what makes it so enjoyable to me.
As for the "overused plotlines" ...ok... answer to a pet peeve comming. You have been duely warned. AAAAAARGH! Ok... Anyone who reads ANYTHING must eventually recognize that there are such things as classic themes and there is, truly, nothing that can happen in a plot that hasn't been done by someone sometime before. Now I agree that cliches and over-used plots exist, but they are only a problem if they are badly done and are not thought out by the author. In that regard, I don't think the Giant has let us down once. Not once. So he has an evil twin in the story. The evil twin is a recognized cliche. You think he doesn't already know that? You think he didn't choose it for that very reason? He is intentionally using a cliche and putting his own twist into it. That's is a mark of a good, free-thinking author. In order to consciously choose to use a cliche, an author must be confident in his/her ability to make it work for him/her. Also, specifically for this comic... what is OOTS save a comic about gamming stereotypes and cliches? That is the point of it, ultimately. That's why I started reading it in the first place and why I continue to love it.
Honestly, I do respect that you are dissatisfied with the comic at present, and yes, I think you should voice that to the Giant so that he can take that into account. I do, however, think that perhaps you are being critical of the Giant's choices rather than what you seem to consider carelessness. You don't have to like his choices, but please remember that he may have a very good reason for the,, and even if he doesn't, this is his comic. He is just nice enough to share.

Thanks, Giant! You brighten my day.

Jarwy

2006-11-27, 10:23 AM

How come everyone hates this comic so much?

No they don't. If they did, they wouldn't bother posting their whining comments here. :smallamused: You see them in every webcomic forum and they are always the same. They might even go as far as saying they will never read the comic from a certain point forward again, but they won't be able to resist a peek when the next comic is out.

Perhaps they can't stand the fact that Rich's comic is subconsciously controlling them?

[back to topic] Excellent instalment of the reasons already given.

Solmage

2006-11-27, 10:24 AM

Toooo funny :) "I hate you all!"

And I chuckled a bit at the V-like haley being her intellect.

Amon Star

2006-11-27, 10:24 AM

Fantastic! Best comic in a long time. I just love all this probing that :haley: is getting. :wink:

Rich, I both hate and love whats about to happen, The Tension just got worse. Please, please make sure you have enough insurance to cover all the heart attacks your marvellous plot will cause.

Quoted for truth.

Why does everyone think Haley's Vanity is scruffy? I think she's quite good-looking. :smallwink: :smallwink: :nudge: :nudge:

http://www2.47ronin.com:8080/fark/ackbar.jpg[/obligatory]

Meh, I prefer Latent Bisuxual :haley: :wink:

am I the only one that notices that her self-loathing is smarter then the rest of her?

More script time = more EXP!

nagora

2006-11-27, 10:26 AM

The feedback that has any importance is how well the products sell. Anything else is various personal opinions, and isn't important as long as it's not being trollish.

Any artist worth the name will tell you how worthless that metric is. How well the product sells has nothing to do with its value or quality, although it may well have something to do with the quality of the audience.

On a related note, I have to say that most of the criticism of this strip implies to me that the critics want to read the most safe, reassuring, dull pap they can; certainly objecting to a passing reference to latent bisexuality seems very 19th century.

It wasn't the best strip in the last month but it was good and I'm pretty sure it's the start of the final straight for the "Haley can't talk" sub-plot.

Taffer

2006-11-27, 10:27 AM

Why is everyone assuming that Haley is going to jump into bed? Oh, she must be a whore because she admitted to kissing a girl a few times? Not like us men, who have never kissed anybody other than our current SO, amirite?

I guess I'm just not seeing all this darkness and gloom that everyone else sees, at least not any that is out of place. I mean, we have a lich with an undead/hobgoblin army descending on the populous of an unsuspecting city. Dark? Yes. Typical standard D&D fare? Yes. That's the thing. All the cliches in the plot recognize that they are cliches, and I'm thinking that is in fact the point. The first strips all made loving fun of D&D, and one of the things about D&D is the fact that a lot of stories people come up with ARE cliche. Rich is taking these cliches, showing them, and then making them his own and original, while being funny doing it. And seriously, there are only so many plots in the world. It's how you do them that counts. I've seen it simplified as far down as only 2 stories, Man Goes on Adventure and Stranger Comes to Town, although I think that is a bit of an oversimplification.

Marius

2006-11-27, 10:33 AM

I don't care about the dark tone (actually, I like it), I just don't like the fact that Haley suddenly becomes "blinded" by her love for Elan. If at least Nale would tried to act as Elan when he talked to Haley I may have bought it.
Besides it's not like Nale is the only thing that could have taken Elans place, in a world of magic were you could get hats of disguise, scrolls of alter self, etc anyone can look like anyone.
If the giant needed a reason to make Haley believe that Nale was actually Elan he could have use a hundred others that were better.

No they don't. If they did, they wouldn't bother posting their whining comments here. :smallamused: You see them in every webcomic forum and they are always the same. They might even go as far as saying they will never read the comic from a certain point forward again, but they won't be able to resist a peek when the next comic is out.

Perhaps they can't stand the fact that Rich's comic is subconsciously controlling them?

I won't stop reading the comics because I didn't like one strip and I LOVE the comic. I actually have the first two books right here. But that doesn't mean that I have to love every strip or that I'll have to read the comic forever no matter what. For example I stopped viewing "Lost" right before the end of the second season when I got tired of the stupid plot going nowhere and I haven't seen an episode of Lost ever since. I left theaters when I didn't like the movie and I've left books right in the middle when I was bored of them. I don't feel compelled to watch anything if I don't want to and no one should.

Wooter

2006-11-27, 10:35 AM

I, for one, love the direction the comic is taking. Even with all the drama, there is still fantastic humor. Not all writers could manage that.

Besides it seems obvious that her voice will come back when she realizes the truth, and tells Nale off, right after sneak attacking his family jewels with her knee.

Wikkin

2006-11-27, 10:37 AM

Ok, constructive criticism is good blah blah blah. But you've posted like eight times in this thread. Surely you've said what you need to say by now?

The Durkon letter was great. It gave us a reason for Miko to be out, to have the brandy that got her out of that cage, and it gave us a clue about what's going on in the Dwarven lands. If it made you feel sorry for Durkon, that's a bonus. He's a stick figure.

I enjoyed the comic thuroughly. And I'm still iffy on Nale's motives here. Is he just in it for a cheap thrill? Is he doing it just cause he thinks it's Elan's girlfriend? Or is he going to get her alone, relaxed and then attempt to kill her? He's going to need to use the OOTS to learn more about the Snarl plot, so I would think attempting to kill OOTS members off at this point would be a mistake.

Fun strip. Keep it up, Giant!

Iball

2006-11-27, 10:47 AM

I don't care about the dark tone (actually, I like it), I just don't like the fact that Haley suddenly becomes "blinded" by her love for Elan. If at least Nale would tried to act as Elan when he talked to Haley I may have bought it.

But Haley knows that "Elan" isn't being 100% Elan-ish: asside from her self-loathing stating as much, Haley said that despite this knowledge, she'll still go out to dinner. Sure, if she's just said "Hmm, Elan just killed someone and laughed about it - I know, I'll go out for a meal with him!" then that would be "blind" love, but here she clearly has doubts. The fact is that she's going to ignore this - not because she's in love with Elan, but because she's sick of hiding behind walls and/or dominant personalities.

PePe QuiCoSE

2006-11-27, 10:54 AM

Now, would a different way of doing it not be to allow Durkon to receive the letter, but by the time he does, he realises that his place isn't with the dwarves, but with his friends? Surely that would be an interesting development of his character, that he chooses to stay, and do the right thing, even when the one thing he's always wanted is presented to him?Dude! Durkon hates human lands... like... HATE! Given the chance he might even return to his homeland and give up this quest he has been sent to. He even tell a dwarf he likes to return to their homeland even if it makes her unhappy!
And btw, this comic is plot relevant (although more character development) because it shows the reasons for haley to go along with it and let aside suspision.
I have read in a lot of thread strips that they don't add anything. IMO every comic has a very specific point (ie, this one is about haley's decision) and if it takes 2 pages to achieve it, the Giant does it.

On another note, i think it would be safer to read the comic as a page by page of a larger book so as to not fall for dull criticism (like happened before with weather control or forcecage). The fact that durkon doesn't know that he can go back and be welcomed could be really relevant in the future, not just for us to feel more sorry for him... (anyway, he's a loser so nobody cares - Belkar dixit :P)

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 10:59 AM

First up, thank you to everyone who has responded to my posts with actual discussion of the topic. I appreciate that I'm not making any friends here, but I'm grateful to those who do not let a difference of opinion get the better of them. I promise I'm not a moaning whiner all of the time. :smallsmile:

Again, I am not criticising the humour of the comic. I don't know how many different ways I can say that.

Nor have I said that Rich has been careless in his storytelling. I'm certain he has a plan for all of this. I just feel that certain plot elements are being dragged on more than they need to be.

I'm trying very much not to go over old ground, because I don't like simply repeating my opinion. I am doing my best to only reply to comments aimed directly at me to either clarify my position, or to continue the discussion.

I agree, it's just a webcomic. But Isn't it possible that some of the plot elements are being drawn out in a fashion that's too grandiose for what is, at the end of the day, just a webcomic? Why, for example, did it have to take a full strip just for Nale to ask Haley out? This isn't a character with whom we're expected to empathise. He's a villain. His plan is already laid out, and it's not like Haley would really need much convincing to go out to dinner with Elan.

There's a whole other thread where debate over the current Nale/Haley plot is raging. This is a touchy subject with a lot of people, myself included. I've tried to keep from bringing that particular topic here. Firstly because there's another thread dedicated to it, secondly because my opinion on it is purely my opinion, and not a part of my commentary on the storytelling.

I really hope Rich pulls this one out of the fire. But more than that, I really hope the pace picks up again. As readers, we know too much about the effectiveness of the OOTS' activities. We knew, for example, that the starmetal plot was a ploy by Nale. Yes, it turned out to be more interesting than a wild goosechase, and had a lot of character development, but it's a dangerous thing to repeatedly have the heroes running around ineffectually while the villain plots and schemes, especially if the reader already knows.

Edit: And the reason I've continued to post is because people have responded to points I have raised, nothing more.

Sam de Cheese

2006-11-27, 11:02 AM

aaaah... good old self loathing, keeps us from going insane. Thats really not a good post, is it.... :smalleek:

teratorn

2006-11-27, 11:06 AM

*sigh* everybody's got an opinion, and the ones full of "constructive criticism" most of all.
[... snip]
Besides the current storyline is the best one yet. Seriously. Deep character development, delivered with a good dose of ironic sillyness.

I like it also. I even bought the books (well dungeon was sold out) to help support the strip so that the Giant keeps it going. Just received them today.

This forum doesn't have a lot of kind words for the female characters sometimes, and I often wonder if it's solely because they're female. I don't actually know this to be true, mind you, but I do speculate sometimes, mainly because I have a case of The Bitter.
You are so right, all that name calling to the lovely Miss Miko Miyazaki, samurai of the Sapphire Guard, loyal vassal of Lord Shojo, daughter of Eyko, and paladin of the Twelve Gods of the South. Haley is my ffavorite character, and is nice to see a double panel devoted just to her. Way to go Giant.

:durkon: "I think ye gave tha wrong mug. I order'd a beer, an' this seems to be a tankard o' moose urine."
priceless quote in "On the Origin of PCs", #18

xyzchyx

2006-11-27, 11:15 AM

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 11:16 AM

That's pretty good, actually!

~The Patriots~

2006-11-27, 11:20 AM

Haley is my ffavorite character, and is nice to see a double panel devoted just to her. Way to go Giant.

That makes two of us

I was way off for most of my guesses for the different haleys, (except for wisdom, I was close) but I don't understand why the Mistrust has a sword and armor although I can't think of a better image for mistrust

coffeethrall

2006-11-27, 11:23 AM

Wow. I'd be amazed at seeing another strip go up so quickly after the last one, especially considering the yucky stuff that's been going on with Rich's computers, but to have them be so excellent takes the cake!

Thank you so much, Rich...may your kitchen always contain yummy pie! :)

Silferdrake

2006-11-27, 11:27 AM

Hi, registerd as soon as I read this comic, (just had to make one of those sticky avatars first). I've been reading Oots almost since the begining and I have too say that I've never been more exited about the comic than now. Seriously Giant, you're doing exelent work here!

Even though this comic wasn't as comical as the last one I realy love how much deepth that have been added to Haley's character (someone deserves extra Xp for roleplaying).

I realy look forward to the next one, and as much as I would love for Haley too look through Nales disguise it's nice that she's not looking this gift horse in it's mouth (perhaps she will at least regain her speech?). Lets just hope that Elan springs from prison and rides to the rescue!

(Since english only is my second language I apologize for my bad spelling).

Laser Ghost

2006-11-27, 11:36 AM

Now, would a different way of doing it not be to allow Durkon to receive the letter, but by the time he does, he realises that his place isn't with the dwarves, but with his friends? Surely that would be an interesting development of his character, that he chooses to stay, and do the right thing, even when the one thing he's always wanted is presented to him?

It certainly would be an interesting development of his character, if by "interesting" you meant "more cliched than breathing". Honestly, I can't think of a more predictable outcome.

I like my comedy, and storytelling, a little bit lighter than that.

I've been a huge fan of OOTS for years, but the quality of the storytelling is really suffering at the moment. It's a shame.

You might not like "dark" storytelling. Fine. Great. But just because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean it's not good. And it doesn't really seem that dark to me. Call me a sadist, but I really found all this supposed "pain and suffering" stuff to be quite comical.

I had a bad feeling about things as soon as Nale switched places with Elan. I knew exactly where the storyline was heading, and now I'm right. What I see happening is Haley falling for Nale's ploy, then when the truth is revealed, we'll have another year of angst because she won't feel comfortable being with Elan afterwards.

This element of the Evil-Twin style plot is so overdone I'd hoped we wouldn't see it, not to mention it introduces a very, very dark story element. We're basically being led to expect that Haley may end up sleeping with someone whom she would otherwise hate and despise, because she won't realise what she's doing.

Yeah. What? I don't see any of that happening. At all. OOTS isn't that kind of comic.

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 11:50 AM

Ah, I did comment briefly on the comedy. Apologies.

I'd consider someone posing as their brother and possibly attempting to seduce the woman his brother is in love with as something that could cause a great amount of pain. It's not like a lot of the other events which have happened in the comic up to now, which remain fantastical because of the conventions of the genre and setting.

As for whether or not the worst will actually happen, I don't know Rich as a person so I could never say what he would or would not do in terms of his writing. I was merely expressing possibilities.

And as for my suggestion about what Durkon could do, in terms of choosing to stay with the OOTS, even if he had a choice. Well, to say it's something he'd never do means discounting the possibility for character development. To say it's predictable, possibly. Predictability is not in and of itself a bad thing. It all depends on how its used. Difference of opinion. I dislike certain clichés, and find others entertaining when used well.

skreweded

2006-11-27, 11:51 AM

I loved it. Recently, they have been not so good. I guess I just don't like :miko:. Oh well. From :haley: perspective, this is an awsome opertunity, should be taken. From :nale:perspective, its a chance to get some. From the viewer, it is (sigh) another love story, where two people get confused. The idea seems kinda used, but giant perfected it with his multiple personalities or whatever. The intelect, self hatred, and bisexual nature were the funniest ones. "No one asked you Haley's bisexual nature" "Ok, I'll go hang out in this corner then..."

Hinting something Giant?...

Hmmm.....
:haley:+:vaarsuvius:=couple? hmm.. Maybe even :elan: could jump in for a threesome.. er. or not. Ahem. Well, this is what spoilers are for, eh?
edit:

What I really think will happen here is that while on this dinner date with Nale, she will be about to kiss him, she will finally make a decent spot check and notice the patch of hair on his chin, and come to the right conclusion. Her voice will return, having looked at this apparent gift horse an inch or so _BELOW_ his mouth, and her first coherent utterance will be "Nale!", and she will head butt him.
I like that. It is a really really good idea. I didn't even notice that. Great idea!

The Hammer of Thor

2006-11-27, 11:52 AM

Eldhrin

2006-11-27, 11:54 AM

I hope those who're impatient for Haley to get her voice back realise that this is probably the story element which leads to its return.

Personally I'm still loving the current OOTS. It's moved through so many different ideas and styles, but it'll be back to the whole party working as a team again soon I'm sure - Xykon is heading for Azure City even as Haley's mind is fracturing apart down the middle.

Poor Haley.

Sir_Norbert

2006-11-27, 11:56 AM

I agree, it's just a webcomic. But Isn't it possible that some of the plot elements are being drawn out in a fashion that's too grandiose for what is, at the end of the day, just a webcomic? Why, for example, did it have to take a full strip just for Nale to ask Haley out? This isn't a character with whom we're expected to empathise. He's a villain. His plan is already laid out, and it's not like Haley would really need much convincing to go out to dinner with Elan.
"Webcomic" is only a name for the medium. If it's "just a webcomic", why do readers like me keep coming back to check whether the next episode is up yet, something I've never felt compelled to do for any other webcomic no matter how funny I found it? Hint: the very plot elements and "grandiosity" you complain about have a hell of a lot to do with it.

We don't empathise with Nale, but empathy isn't the only emotion out there. Villains make a story enjoyable to the extent that they inspire fear and anxiety (building on our empathy for the heroes) and increase the tension. 381 was a great strip and doesn't need any justification beyond that.

Oh, by the way, I'm suddenly very embarrassed that I forgot to mention this in my first post in this topic, but 382 marks one hundred strips since I started reading the comic! Yay OOTS!

The Hammer of Thor

2006-11-27, 11:58 AM

Isn't it ironic that self loathing is the only one who thinks straight and gets it right?

Edit: Hey, a great thought just hit me. Do any of the other characters have little sprites things for their emotions? Elan would be really funny, since Elan's intelligence would be the one sitting in the corner.

Or something like that anyway.

[/quote]Originally Posted by Ascobol http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1602533#post1602533)
I love the introduction of numerous other parts of Haley's subconcious. :elan:

I wonder if Elan might have other selves

Oops missed this.

SPoD

2006-11-27, 12:24 PM

EDIT: I apologize for attributing something to you that you did not say, Wordmaker, and I have deleted my words in regard to that as a result.

Personally, I like that Rich is willing ot have characters with modern romantic/sexual problems and issues. D&D might be set in a medieval world, but it's players are modern, and anachronistic character development is as old as roleplaying itself. I mean, if we wanted to be realistic, women in D&D wouldn't be allowed to wear pants and go adventuring in the first place. It's a fantasy parody, not a historical document!

Wordmaker

2006-11-27, 12:27 PM

Technically, perhaps. But you stated that Haley admitted to being a whore in her cryptograms, when what she said was that she had kissed a girl more than once.

Actually no, I didn't. I'll defend my comments, and apologise for mistakes I make, but please don't say I said something that I didn't.

Aliquid

2006-11-27, 12:36 PM

I'd consider someone posing as their brother and possibly attempting to seduce the woman his brother is in love with as something that could cause a great amount of pain.
Absolutely, a great amount of pain for both Hailey and Elan. If Nale succeeded in his plan to seduce Hailey, it would be truly tragic. Anyone who is in touch with their emotions, and capable of empathy would not enjoy such an event at all.

Even so, I’m not disturbed at all, because I am an optimist. I truly believe that Nale will not succeed with his plan, and that Hailey will figure things out before it is too late.

The fact that Rich has brought this level of tension into the plot shows to me that this story has great depth, which in my opinion is good story writing.

It's not like a lot of the other events which have happened in the comic up to now, which remain fantastical because of the conventions of the genre and setting.I can think of plenty of quality fantasy novels where there is dramatic emotional tension, where you empathise with one of the characters.

As for whether or not the worst will actually happen, I don't know Rich as a person so I could never say what he would or would not do in terms of his writing. I was merely expressing possibilities.The way you post, it appears that you are expecting these possibilities to come true. You are showing concern and discomfort with the story based on an assumption as to where the plot is going. The fact that Rich is making you feel so uncomfortable that you felt compelled to register and start posting shows that he is doing a good job in creating tension in the plot.

Difference of opinion. I dislike certain clichés, and find others entertaining when used well.I could be wrong, but it appears that you like clichés that promote honour and good-will. Clichés that show the nasty side of mankind make you uncomfortable.

Another very important point about clichés. Consider one important aspect of the genre of this comic. Among other things it is a parody. Parodies often deliberately work with clichés. The evil twin sub-plot is teeming with parody, right down to the stereotypical goatee used to distinguish the evil one. It has been done hundreds of times before, and that’s why Rich is doing it in the OOTS, to make fun of the cliché.

Draz74

2006-11-27, 12:37 PM

That's my point exactly. The character's been put through the ringer, more than just about any other OOTS character. Therefore the lost letter serves only to make everyone feel sorry for Durkon. We already have enough reason to feel sorry for him. Does this information progress the storyline? No. Does it develop Durkon's character? No.

Hey Wordmaker, have you read "On the Orgin of PC's"? If not, then you're missing a crucial part of the "Durkon go home" subplot.

To make things clear without (hopefully) spoiling too much, this subplot really isn't dragging on too long because it can't be cut short. It will probably tie into the main plot ... near the end of the strip. Hint: Kraagor's Gate.

I agree that the aphasia subplot has felt slow, along with some others. (Although plots can feel like very different speeds when you're reading all the strips at once, in a book, instead of waiting for new ones to come out. Maybe the Giant is just trying to make the comic so that it will flow at a good rate in the books.)

hewhosaysfish

2006-11-27, 12:42 PM

... But you stated that Haley admitted to being a whore in her cryptograms...
It was Dagoth that said that.

Frozen_Northman

2006-11-27, 12:42 PM

Dang. For a moment I was hoping that this comic confirmed that Haley had definitely gotten her speech back. Then I went back through the archives. Comic #311 shows Haley "talking" to her Self-Loathing in the translucent speech balloons, which she's also using in the current strip.

(*shakes fist*) Curse you, O Comic Strip Writer, for stringing things out one strip more!

Melodramatic posturing aside, I still have faith in Haley. Though her inner personalities seem to be using questionable logic, Haley herself has made a reasonable point. She's taking a chance on finding her own happiness. And she's not ignorant that this may be a trap.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, which means it probably doesn't have any fury like something worse - a woman deceived.

U2QueenBee

2006-11-27, 12:43 PM

Poor Haley. :( This isn't going to be her one true chance at happiness either.

Damn you Nale, you've gone too far this time. Where's my poking stick? I hope Sabine (and Elan) come back and put a boot up your hiney.

P.S. Haley is 'whore' for going on 2 dates and kissing a few people as a teenager? That seems...harsh.

Elcaz

2006-11-27, 12:54 PM

Is it just me or has this strip brought quite a bunch of people out of the woodwork and got them to register?

Wordmaker, I don't think you're being whiny and you're just stating your opinion, but I believe you're in the minority here. I'm finding the current plot quite satisfying. And to some people who look at Rich's work with great enthusiasm to see it poked and prodded, even if constructively, seems like a no-no. It shouldn't deter you from making yourself heard (or more like... read) if some forumers are being defensive.

Xyzchyx spoiler is awesome. His handle is hard to spell though. :)

DeathQuaker

2006-11-27, 12:57 PM

That's my point exactly. The character's been put through the ringer, more than just about any other OOTS character. Therefore the lost letter serves only to make everyone feel sorry for Durkon.

You don't know that, not for sure.

It's very possible the letter and its contents will play an important role in the story later on, and we were shown the letter for a reason beyond simply evoking pathos.

Readers of Origins of the PCs know that Durkon not receiving that letter is a GOOD thing, actually. Having knowledge of the contents of the letter creates a tension--will Durkon somehow find this out, whether he receives the letter or not? What consequences will this have?

There's tension and emotion here on a number of levels--and actually, that's a very good sign that is NOT the last we've heard of the Durkon-letter plot.

As I think on it, I can't think of any loose plot device that Rich has not resolved. He even brought back the girdle of gender-bending, which we once thought was a throwaway joke.

So relax--you may find this leads us to a whole new, great story about Durkon.

Likewise, with the Haley and Nale thing. What makes you SO certain the plot is going to go the way you say? You're jumping to conclusions that have no basis in anything beyond your own fears. They may go on the date, and Haley may figure him out before anything happens. They may have a successful date but then don't go to bed with one another. They may be on their way to the date, when a jealous Sabine appears and sabotages the situation. They may be on their way to the date when they are distracted by a disturbance caused by Belkar, or Shojo's new Ded Wizard Show, or any number of other things that may cause the story to go in a completely new direction, far beyond what you imagined would happen.

You've got every right to complain about or criticize things that have already happened. But jumping the gun and getting worked up about something that only might happen, with no way of knowing for sure, serves no purpose. Wouldn't you feel silly if your doomsaying comes to nothing?

(This is not to say YOU are silly. I can understand, completely, why you were worried. I would hate it if the story went in the direction you predict. But I am content to wait and see what happens before I develop an opinion on it.)

Relax, and don't count your Evil Twins until their plots hatch. Enjoy the ride.

VMorticia

2006-11-27, 01:06 PM

I liked this episode. I can see why some people are criticising the direction of the plot; it's because they want more slapstick and/or more action... or just because they're scared of the what-ifs.

I'm more optomistic about the direction of this current subplot, but I'm not going to even try to guess what I think might happen cause I can see about ten dozen different possibilities all of which would be funny if they were written by the Giant instead of by my brain.

I also think that if you feel the plot is moving too slowly it might have something to do with you only getting one strip every other day instead of ploughing through the entire series in one sitting - my attention span is too short to be bothered by it running slowly, but I can see how it could bug others.

If anything I've said is out of place, I'm sorry, this is just how I see these reactions I've read. I personally like this part of the series as much as any, and eagerly await the next installment.

:elan:

CynicalFelidae

2006-11-27, 01:16 PM

Call me a sadist, but I really found all this supposed "pain and suffering" stuff to be quite comical.

Ya sadist.
Have to agree with you however. It has been quite comical so far, that and also the added bonus of developing the character further. OOts is, after all, pirmairly a character driven comic. Atleast is seems so to me.

Tura

2006-11-27, 01:17 PM

If every opinion counts, here's mine.
This was a great strip. Yes, OOTS is becoming something different from what it was at the beginning, and you know what? It's getting better. Hey, we all like a good laugh and a few star wars references once and a while, but ANYONE CAN DO THAT. But Characters, with a capital C? Not anyone can make those. Rich can. This strip, more than anything else, proves that Haley is so much more than your average rp character: a class/ stats/ alignment combo with a back story yet to be revealed. She is a fully developped character, one you can understand and relate to, and whose actions and thoughts are not simply determined by dice.

I think that the rest of the OOTS not as complex (yet), they are standard issues: You have your lawful fighter, your dutiful dwarf, your inconsistent bard, etc. And although they are all unique in their way, they still depend on their class/race etc to be determined. Haley, from this strip, is officially self-determined. She is a Character. And this, this is Literature.

Now, if the price for all this is less comedy (as some could argue), I don't give a damn personally. Because:
A)OOTS has not become over-sentimental or corny, which would annoy me
B)it rewards us in other ways.
C)it's still funny.

Other concerns:
Dark themes can indeed be my cup of tea, and I don't care how kids see it, I'm an adult thankyouverymuch. There are tons of books "for children" I enjoy, but I don't consider it a prerequisite. I also don't mind references to sex, and I actually find it very disturbing that most people can handle beating, killing and maiming, but not sex. Understandable (our society's taboos etc) but still very disturbing.

So....Thanx, Rich! Keep up the good work!

(PS- All of the above are my personal opinion, I don't wish to convince anyone. There's no accounting for taste. :smalltongue:)

TreesOfDeath

2006-11-27, 01:20 PM

Cuindless

2006-11-27, 01:30 PM

I actually find it very disturbing that most people can handle beating, killing and maiming, but not sex.

I agree with you 100%! Why is it that many of the people on this forum have no objection to Belkar's killing spree, which had no other purpose than getting Miko's attention? Or what about wearing a sentient creatures head as a hat, for that matter? The moment a few references (note that these aren't even illustrated... only mentioned) to sex, and so many people get up in arms. Says something about our culture, doesn't it.

I guess its like Jack Nicholson said, "The nipple... you get an X rating if you kiss it, an R rating if you cut it off."

metawidget

2006-11-27, 01:32 PM

Disappointing. The quality of the strip has dropped significantly. Honestly, I wouldn't mind the comic being updated once a month, if only the humor was good. The members of the Oots have transformed from a "somewhat non-typical band of adventurers" into "typical modern society lowlifes": Haley is a whore (she confesses to that in the strip in which she dines with Elan, I can't remember what number it was), V is the epitome of ignorance (He sees "Elan" making out with a male cop and doesn't react). The jokes have become disturbing (what about the kids that play this game???); Dates? Bisexuality? Seriously, Giant, couldn't you come up with something better than that?

I noticed that the story now focuses more on the characters themselves instead of the Oots as a whole, which seems to be a really bad thing, especially with Nale joining. He would have been okay if he'd just stay put, but he seems to bring out the worst in everyone. Lately, Belkar doesn't seem any more evil than most of the other Ootsers (V, Haley, Roy).

I rather like a little character development, and Nale's always been a divide-and-conquer type: we're getting him pulling the wool over all the OOtS' individual eyes. As for not liking dates and bisexuality... this isn't anything new, from V and Hayley's crystal balls joke to Samantha the sorceror, a little bawdiness has been here from volume one days. If some of it's gay or bi, great. This is the Internet, all kinds are reading and it's nice to see stuff one can identify with, whether it's a schoolgirl fetish, bisexuality, stupid boss, stupid employees, humourless zealots, inane patchwork cults (of Banjo), being considered a stupid jock or asexual nerd, gender-bending or liking puppies (not that way, get your mind out of the gutter). If you want something without any references to queerdom, try Family Circle or something.

Frigga

2006-11-27, 01:37 PM

Top notch, Mr. Burlew! And the thought process, speaking as a pretty neurotic woman myself, is a magnification of pretty much exactly what happens in a gal's head- just with actual people talking, hehe. ^.^;

I can't believe all the griping I see here on the boards. It's really shocking. I for one love your comic, and would ask that you change nothing. Your characters- ALL of them- are excellently written. This is my favorite comic of all of the ones that I follow, and there's never been a strip I didn't enjoy, even if every single one doesn't make me bust a gut laughing (though many, many of them do!) Thank you.

palavus

2006-11-27, 01:58 PM

The only thing I don't like about this strip is that it doesn't really move the plot forward at the point where tension has been built and we're all waiting for something big to happen on many different plotlines AND I will have to wait a few days to read the next page. The situation would be different if I could just jump to the next page (as when reading a book). In fact, I don't think it would bother me at all but would add some nice depth to the character of Haley.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that he strip is good, the tension and waiting just makes it harder to enjoy.

I'm not saying that you can't dislike the strip, just noticed my own reactions and as I read so many negative comments here, I thought that others may have the same situation. So I would urge people to think it through again before bashing someones unfinished work.

Emmerson Grant

2006-11-27, 02:02 PM

Like many others, I join my voice to the "poor Haley" crowd.

Self-loathing is a bad advisor. It will point out our flaws and the many reasons why we are not worthy of someone/something else.

Right now Haley is acting like Self-loathing asked her to act on that New Year's Eve. Tonight she's going to let the chips fall where they may...and we're the ones screaming "No Haley! Don't do it!"

No Haley! Don't do it!

Shadic

2006-11-27, 02:07 PM

Well, some people believed that the Red was her lying side, or something.

I'm more critical of that, I think that her Mistrust personality sort of intrude on that ground.

Her Blantant Bisexuality was funny, mostly because of the corner joke. I still find it interesting that her Self-Loathing seems to rule over the others, but now Haley is taking command.

Nice to see her talk more, even if it is just to herself.

Khantalas

2006-11-27, 02:14 PM

Not blatant. Latent. These two words are really not synonyms.

Amotis

2006-11-27, 02:19 PM

I'm surprised there wasn't a Frued joke.

DougWykstra

2006-11-27, 02:23 PM

I'm just waiting to find out what happens when Nale discovers that Haley can't speak.

the_tick_rules

2006-11-27, 02:28 PM

Boy the one time self-loathing was on the ball entirely and it gets shot down. So was Haley talking regular in that strip or was it just she could still talk normally to her umm "inner people" i guess you could call them. Though I'm no longer thinking about how the characters never notice. I know it will be revealed when the plot makes the time right and that's fine with me. But until then we all have to accept that Nale could have it written on his forehead, "Nale, NOT Elan," and nobody would notice.

The strip is gettin a bit dark lately ain't it?

Goofy

2006-11-27, 02:32 PM

She was talking internally. That's why the balloons were translucent.

WarriorTribble

2006-11-27, 02:33 PM

Any artist worth the name will tell you how worthless that metric is. How well the product sells has nothing to do with its value or quality, although it may well have something to do with the quality of the audience.Quality perhaps, but value is obviously determined by consumers at least in the short term assuming objects are sold instead of say open source projects which are different.

I should've elaborated. Rich stated that he doesn't really care what people write in the forums, that OOTS is something he does for himself. In that sense how society judges his work is irrelevant the only thing useful in this case is how long he can do this full time.

DeathQuaker

2006-11-27, 02:37 PM

Boy the one time self-loathing was on the ball entirely and it gets shot down.

Just like real life. Normally our self-loathing hinders us, but just on occasion, we doubt ourselves for good reason.

Though we did not see her speaking to "her," I think Loneliness had a large factor in Haley making the decision she did. She's been unable to reach out to anyone... can't even confide in V the way she used to--and in turn, she's being more and more left out. So someone reaches out to her, she grasps onto the hope that it's a good thing, despite obvious signs that something's up.

the_tick_rules

2006-11-27, 02:45 PM

Esabelle Ryngin

2006-11-27, 02:50 PM

huh. I was expecting a bit more of a response from Haley herself... (maybe the secret she isn't telling involves V? It would explain a lot. Other than V is the only guy she can trust enough to sleep in the same room in.) Oh well. two-length goodness nonetheless :smallbiggrin:

Thez

2006-11-27, 02:55 PM

So now the giant is moving into the game show territory.. shoutability has entered the building (slash comic)!

Am I the only one who just, with every effort available to me, supressed a:
"NO HALEY... DOOOOON'T!" ?

SiD

2006-11-27, 02:55 PM

Yeah, I'm still intrigued to hear what this secret that even V doesn't know actually is.

:haley: "It turns out I may not be exactly what you would call..."
Could be almost anything! Race, alignment, 'a nice girl', etc.

Amon Star

2006-11-27, 02:58 PM

I like it also. I even bought the books (well dungeon was sold out) to help support the strip so that the Giant keeps it going. Just received them today.

How long did they take to arrive? I still waiting for mine and I'm starting to worry if they'll ever get here.

Mewtroid

2006-11-27, 03:02 PM

Why peroxide? Peroxide is chemical, not psychological. You've got distrust, emo-ness, optimism, intellect, latent bisexuality, and...PEROXIDE?!?!

DeathQuaker

2006-11-27, 03:04 PM

(maybe the secret she isn't telling involves V? It would explain a lot. Other than V is the only guy she can trust enough to sleep in the same room in.)

Nope. We all know that the party knows (and Haley knows the party knows) that she had a delightful time feeling up V's smooth, soft, round orbs (even if they are smaller than her own). So that's no secret. :smalltongue:

the_tick_rules

2006-11-27, 03:04 PM

yeah that one threw me off a bit too. The only thing that came to mind is when Sabine was insulting Haley by saying she dies her hair.

DeathQuaker

2006-11-27, 03:04 PM

Why peroxide? Peroxide is chemical, not psychological. You've got distrust, emo-ness, optimism, intellect, latent bisexuality, and...PEROXIDE?!?!

She's Haley's Self-Reliance, as seen in an earlier comic. Self-Loathing is merely mocking her antagonistic counterpart.

Mewtroid

2006-11-27, 03:11 PM

That... I don't remember Self Reliance wearing white? Then again, my mind is stupid and broke and my brain hurts.

Klio

2006-11-27, 03:14 PM

Nothing much new to add except that I loved this one. I thought the final frame of the previous one was good, but this went beyond my expectations. For all the various criticisms it's inspired, it felt real--it truly felt like all the teeny tiny people a lot of chicks carry around in our heads. Even the latent bisexuality in the corner :smallbiggrin: And sometimes, as someone mentioned, even the supposedly negative aspects of a woman's personality are actually sources of strength and insight when push comes to kick-in-the-rear and the survival instincts are firing up. That said, Haley's decision to take a chance felt absolutely real and human.

Are we sure Rich didn't spend some time in an alternate dimension going through teenage girlhood? His insight is right on target.

Angela

2006-11-27, 03:29 PM

I'm not saying that you can't dislike the strip, just noticed my own reactions and as I read so many negative comments here, I thought that others may have the same situation. So I would urge people to think it through again before bashing someones unfinished work.

That's just it, isn't it?? This is an unfinished work! We sit here impatiently waiting for the new page, forgetting that it really is something bigger. If anyone truly believes that the comic is getting worse/less funny, find a couple of spare hours and a cup of hot chocolate and start again from the start, read the whole lot in one sitting.

For my part, I think this little cliffhanger is great! Can't wait to see Haley in that dress!!! :smalltongue: I wonder who'll notice first? Will Nale notice that she can't speak properly, or will he be too busy bagging out Elan but complimenting himself?? Will she finally listen to the "little voice inside her head" that's saying this is a bad idea?

DeathQuaker

2006-11-27, 03:30 PM

Nope. We all know that the party knows (and Haley knows the party knows) that she had a delightful time feeling up V's smooth, soft, round orbs (even if they are smaller than her own). So that's no secret. :smalltongue:

Oh, whoops. My mistake. V was feeling up hers, but feeling inadequate about the size of her own (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html). Regardless, it's no secret.

That... I don't remember Self Reliance wearing white? Then again, my mind is stupid and broke and my brain hurts.

Then stop hurting and just reread funny comic:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0319.html

:)

Manga Shoggoth

2006-11-27, 03:33 PM

This and the previous strip are the first time that I have cared about a character's fate, rather than just enjoyed the story.

Plugging cliches and following archetypes are the essentially same thing. It's just that one of them sounds better. I like the fact that Rich is bringing other things into the story besides straight RPG-based humour.

It is true that OOTS is about a team. It is also true that teams are made up of individuals, and focussing on the individuals once in a while is not wrong. I remember one issue of Teen Titans that did a spotlight on several of the characters, and it was one of the more interesting issues.

Amon Star

2006-11-27, 03:35 PM

On that topic, couldn't V or durkon i forget which one of them would have it, cast rary's telepathiv bond on Haley so they could talk to her when they need to. Might help the young girl out with her problems. Of course they don't do it cause it ruin the story telling, but hey since when doesn't this forum offer our 2 cents, (but by now those cents have added up to billions probably)

Rary's Telepathic Bond is a Wizard spell. :vaarsuvius: probably doesn't know it.

Why peroxide? Peroxide is chemical, not psychological. You've got distrust, emo-ness, optimism, intellect, latent bisexuality, and...PEROXIDE?!?!

Peroxide is probably sort for Peroxide Blond. As in, :haley: blond side, which every woman is said to have.

CGM3

2006-11-27, 03:37 PM

Not blatant. Latent. These two words are really not synonyms.

"Inconceivable!"

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

There, I've got that out of my system. Now I just have to deal with those pesky homicidal impulses... :smalleek:

SiD

2006-11-27, 03:39 PM

Why peroxide? Peroxide is chemical, not psychological. You've got distrust, emo-ness, optimism, intellect, latent bisexuality, and...PEROXIDE?!?!
It's not her name, it's an insult.

Felinoid

2006-11-27, 03:39 PM

Mmmmmm, that's good dialogue. Jokes, internal debate, thought-speech so we don't have to translate...that had it all. Bravo, Giant.

And surprisingly early in the day, too. Are you going to *gasp!* make this a habit?

Meagen

2006-11-27, 03:47 PM

Looks like Haley picked the wrong week to quit being cynical and suspicious...

Norenche

2006-11-27, 03:52 PM

"peroxide" is used as an insult as result of the blond hair. Dark hair is usually decolored using H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide)

M._A._Foxfire

2006-11-27, 03:57 PM

What I really think will happen here is that while on this dinner date with Nale, she will be about to kiss him, she will finally make a decent spot check and notice the patch of hair on his chin, and come to the right conclusion. Her voice will return, having looked at this apparent gift horse an inch or so _BELOW_ his mouth, and her first coherent utterance will be "Nale!", and she will head butt him.

Since Nale and Elan are anagrams, it doesn't have to herald a return to speech.
"Nale-"
"How did you know! My disguise was perfect!"
*atonished gibberish* ...Elan? *more gibberish*
And then she knocks him flat with a plate and sticks the flowers someplace unpleasant. Or gets kidnapped.

Thexare Blademoon

2006-11-27, 04:33 PM

Rary's Telepathic Bond is a Wizard spell. :vaarsuvius: probably doesn't know it.
V is a Wizard. I think you meant :durkon:

Amon Star

2006-11-27, 04:43 PM

No, I ment :vaarsuvius:, the only one who could cast it, doesn't have it in his/her Spellbook.

Khantalas

2006-11-27, 04:46 PM

How do you know he doesn't?

Krytha

2006-11-27, 04:47 PM

Whoa whoa early! yeah, :haley: will regret not listening to herself about NOT-:elan:

Xi-1

2006-11-27, 04:52 PM

As Norenche has said:

"peroxide" is used as an insult as result of the blond hair. Dark hair is usually decolored using H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide)"

That and really small doses of chlorine, which is why Piers Anthony named one of his blonde-green haired female characters Chlorine. That and her Talent, since she was a Xanth character. When I heard Self-Loathing call Blonde Haley 'Peroxide' it evoked memories of Sabine and Haley insulting each other while seeking the Air Sigil. Haley said she was a natural redhead, after all, and that's backed up by Roy's father's prophecy [when the goat turns, red strikes true]. Although if Haley WASN"T a natural auburn, woul Roy's dead dad necessarily know? And would that matter to the prophecy since it was Roy who needed to know it?

And I admit I was wrong about Haley already suspecting not-Elan. I thought she could use that for blackmail fodder, but I guess not yet, at any rate.

On that note, Goatee!

What follows is an exerpt from the campaign in which I am currently participating. It is NOT word for word:

Shadow Campaigns: Act 1 Scene 1: First Impressions

[Highland Town, Main Tavern]

Human 1: Blasted ****ity fairy-elves! Can't shtand 'em!
Eliezer: [puts a hand on his tachi, positions a foot so he can easily cover the distance]
Avaara: [listens and watches with discrete interest]
Velar: [keeps drinking]
Human 1: Can's trusht a durned elf! Sooner kill 'em all! [spots Vioraroreron and moves towards him threateningly, yet drunk]
Eliezer: [quickly slides off his stool and moves quickly across the floor to intercept, tripping on Gregory (the bartkeeper)'s lucky floorboard in so doing. He quickly recovers his feet as everyone breaks out in uncontrollable laughter, particularly Velar] I would have to ask you to keep your--
Avaara: [discretely steals Eli's tachi. Notices it's all nice and white and shiny-new]
V: If you gentlemen have something to say, say it to my face.
H1: Okay, [punches V in the face]
V: [goes flying backwards, gets back up and approaches the drunk humans again, receives another punch]
H1: Hah! This is fun,
Eliezer: That's enough. You're welcome to your opinion, just keep it to yourself! [goes to draw his sword, notices that it just ain't there, figures 'screw it' and goes to punch the drunkard in the face instead, despite the sword pointed at him now]
Soleil: [charges past V and Eli, delivering a bone-crushing blow directly to H1's face with her mace, grazing Eli's cheek in the process]
Eliezer: By Pelor's light...

Alysar

2006-11-27, 04:52 PM

Rary's Telepathic Bond is a Wizard spell. :vaarsuvius: probably doesn't know it.

V could very easily know the spell. She just has no particular reason to cast it on Not-Elan.

AyuVince

2006-11-27, 04:59 PM

Ah, you know, I must agree with some that everything was better in the olden days... before this forum got hijacked by rogue drama critics. Not that I would want to keep anyone from expressing her or his opinion, but it's not really helpful to The Giant or this forum if people keep on repeating that this strip's demise is nigh. Since Rich is probably ignoring these comments anyway, their posters will only get increasingly frustrated. So lighten up, folks! This comic is art, and art can't appeal to everyone. The strips will soon enough feature themes you like about OotS again.

Baru

2006-11-27, 05:08 PM

Excellent, Haley has fallen in to Nale's hands.
This storyline is getting even more interesting.

Cryptarch

2006-11-27, 05:13 PM

If anyone truly believes that the comic is getting worse/less funny, find a couple of spare hours and a cup of hot chocolate and start again from the start, read the whole lot in one sitting.

That sounds like such a good idea that I am going to do it even though I don't think the comic is getting any less funny! Mmmm, hot chocolate.

I think it's best to be careful when being critical of ongoing works. True, some strips are better than others, some plotlines we may like and some we may not, and criticism is all fair and good, but it's rather pointless to criticize overarching ideas until their full purpose has been completed.

By the way, I loved that the armored chica is Haley's mistrust! I didn't see that comming at all, but it's perfect.

okpokalypse

2006-11-27, 05:13 PM

I suspect it's because it's focused on a female character and her feelings. This forum doesn't have a lot of kind words for the female characters sometimes, and I often wonder if it's solely because they're female. I don't actually know this to be true, mind you, but I do speculate sometimes, mainly because I have a case of The Bitter.

I actually really liked the Haley romantic plot for quite some time, but it has gotten tiresome, and I tend to agree with Wordmaker that the comic is quickly approaching a place it doesn't need to go. Evil twins trying to seduce vulnerable women into compromising positions...

This attitude shift by Haley could have come about at any time, and I honestly don't like the implications of the timing with which it's now happened. I understand this is a mildly mature comic, and like any good comic, most of the more mature content goes over the head of the younger readers. I applaud that. That being said, I really don't like the idea of even speculating at sex being used as a weapon - which is what is potentially going to happen - and what makes it worse is that it's in no way subtle! I also don't like that the comic is showing the manipulation and objectification of women simply because they're in a temporarily fragile state.

Of course, if the Giant doesn't follow through with an imposter's seducton, Haley figures it out, and this is the grand step to advancing the plot and getting Elan out of prison and back into the group - so be it. I'll be relieved compared to how I feel about the turn of the comic as of late - but I'll still wish it didn't have to come to this place to begin with.

Hototo

2006-11-27, 05:16 PM

I agree with AyuVince Rich is doing a good job, and has done a good job in the past of telling the story he wants to tell. obviously he can't always have a comic that will make everyone happy. I personally like how it is going because Rich is the master of random twists that perhaps 5% of the readers would have thought of. The giant wouldn't make something too soap opera-ish, and he knows that many of us want more of an OOTS group story line, he has said that in the past, which has been the reason for so many double sized comics and extra comics in the recent past.
Now on this comic itself, I love that someone has finally decided to question Nale! And the character who I hadn't much cared for at first is now one of my favorites. Way ta go Self Loathing! Wooo!

baerdith

2006-11-27, 05:17 PM

New comic is up. Double-sized introspective fun.

Oh, man, for a second there I thought Haley actually spoke something understandable!

okpokalypse

2006-11-27, 05:21 PM

You might not like "dark" storytelling. Fine. Great. But just because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean it's not good. And it doesn't really seem that dark to me. Call me a sadist, but I really found all this supposed "pain and suffering" stuff to be quite comical.

I agree with you. As much as I'm not in favor of the turn the comic has taken as of late, they comic itself is still good quality. Very good actually. I just think it's getting a bit obtuse in mature matters where formerly more mature content was much more discreet.

I've no issue with emotional torment that many of the characters have undergone in the past months, but the whole sexual overtones as of late, and a potential deceitful seduction on the horizon may be a bit much... I think it just objectifies a vulnerable woman as being stupid and weak - and quite frankly, I always felt Haley was one of the strongest characters. It disappoints me.

I know I'm likely in the minority where this is concerned.

Xi-1

2006-11-27, 05:23 PM

Fall? Brainflash!
Haley will be with Nale when either Elan falls on top of Nale or Haley herself (she did get to tackle him during the Xykon at Dorukan's Castle thing). As to why he's falling, thog have rocketskates.

Act 1 Scene 2: Swordsearching

[everyone else has left the tavern]
Eli: Someone get that guy a healer! And someone else please find me my sword,
Soleil: He'll be fine; I healed him.
Velar: You also smashed 'im,
Soleil: Seems square to me.
Eli: Has anyone seen my sword?
Velar: No,
Soleil: No,
V: No,
Gregory: [returns from the back room] Who broke my lucky floorboard?!
Eli: Nearly broke me, 'though I'm more worried about where my sword got off to. These things don't ordinarily jump off one's belt.
Velar: There it is, over by your seat.
Eli: [goes and puts it back in its place] So it is. Sir Gregory, do you want me to fix the floorboard?
Greg: Nah, it's lucky like that.
Soleil: Thanks for helping out,
Eli: How's that again? I TRIPPED.
Velar: Better than falling on your own sword,
Eli: For all I know, impossible at that point.
Avaara: Good point,
Soleil: You have a scratch on your cheek. Here, let me heal you.
Eli: That's not really... umm... thanks, [fails Will Save]
Velar: [successful Spot Check] Piece of advice - keep your shortsword in your pants.
Soleil: [giggles]
V: [glares at Eli]
Eli: It's called a tachi. It's a style of longswo -- crappage. [tries to block the view with his light shield, but it's way too late for that]
Soleil: [giggles again]

okpokalypse

2006-11-27, 05:29 PM

One other issue that bugged me is that no one in this damn group has a spot check worth a damn! How has no one noticed that "Elan" should have a non-tan patch where his goatee used to be?

:)

Cryptarch

2006-11-27, 05:30 PM

I actually really liked the Haley romantic plot for quite some time, but it has gotten tiresome, and I tend to agree with Wordmaker that the comic is quickly approaching a place it doesn't need to go. Evil twins trying to seduce vulnerable women into compromising positions...

This attitude shift by Haley could have come about at any time, and I honestly don't like the implications of the timing with which it's now happened. I understand this is a mildly mature comic, and like any good comic, most of the more mature content goes over the head of the younger readers. I applaud that. That being said, I really don't like the idea of even speculating at sex being used as a weapon - which is what is potentially going to happen - and what makes it worse is that it's in no way subtle! I also don't like that the comic is showing the manipulation and objectification of women simply because they're in a temporarily fragile state.

Of course, if the Giant doesn't follow through with an imposter's seducton, Haley figures it out, and this is the grand step to advancing the plot and getting Elan out of prison and back into the group - so be it. I'll be relieved compared to how I feel about the turn of the comic as of late - but I'll still wish it didn't have to come to this place to begin with.

I can see where you are comming from, but I don't think this situation is as horrible as some of you are taking it. I think it's clear that Nale is doing this because 1. he is bored, and 2. he is a nasty, horrible egocentric. So is the lich, and he does things that, if taken too seriously, would also be horrific. That is the point of villains, especially in a comic like this. It's only funny because of the satire, the story, and the dark humor of the comic... And taking all in all, this comic's humor is a lot lighter than many.
If Giant is objectifying women here, or saying it is right to take advantage of the emotionally fragile, then I don't see it. Most people aren't foolish enough to think that we are supposed to believe that Nale is doing anything good, or noble, or right, or even cool. He's being a... er... very stupid, self-absorbed person. He's an idiot, and this is, I think, a rather stupid risk for him to make. Haley, on the other hand, is one of the more independant and intellegent members of OOTS. I doubt that Nale will succeed in making Haley anything more than homicidally angry with him.

Maratanos

2006-11-27, 05:34 PM

But see, there's a difference. To date, Xykon hasn't done the things that could be horrific if taken too seriously TO THE MAIN CHARACTERS. This is EXACTLY what threatens to happen, even now.

okpokalypse

2006-11-27, 05:39 PM

... Nale is doing anything good, or noble, or right, or even cool. He's being a... er... very stupid, self-absorbed person. He's an idiot, and this is, I think, a rather stupid risk for him to make. Haley, on the other hand, is one of the more independant and intellegent members of OOTS. I doubt that Nale will succeed in making Haley anything more than homicidally angry with him.

I hope so. I was a bit perturbed by the whole turn of events with the switcheroo ploy by Nale (I mean, as a Hero group - who REALLY stops V or Durkon from Detecting Evil?). And similar to what Wordmaker thought, I too feared that the evil twin seduccion was just around the corner... I just hoped Rich wouldn't make Haley stupid about it - which it seems he has up to this point.

I just hope you're right and that she turns it around.

Bluesilver

2006-11-27, 05:41 PM

I think Nale is trying to assasinate Haley.

Cryptarch

2006-11-27, 05:42 PM

But see, there's a difference. To date, Xykon hasn't done the things that could be horrific if taken too seriously TO THE MAIN CHARACTERS. This is EXACTLY what threatens to happen, even now.

You mean appart from trying to kill them all and concievably bring them back as cheap labor, I assume...

I can't speak for the Giant by any means, of course, but I think you are taking this situation, only in the context of this comic, a wee bit too seriously. I seriously doubt that anything horrific is going to befall Haley, and I am just waiting to see how it will resolve. I would hate to see her traumatized (more that the destruction of her precious loot, poor darling) and I would also hate to see sex used as a weapon, and if it comes to that, I might join you in being upset, but that is by no means certain to happen. Where is tension supposed to come from if not the threat of horrible things happening?

Maratanos

2006-11-27, 05:43 PM

Bluesilver: IF Nale is trying to assasinate Haley, that's REALLY stupid of him. He has stated he wants to gain control of the gates, and delaying their trip to Girard's gate until they resurrect YET ANOTHER PERSON (Haley this time), would NOT serve his purposes, especially since the trail of evidence would too obviously lead to him. For instance, Haley was last seen alive in a restaurant with him, or something.

You mean appart from trying to kill them all and concievably bring them back as cheap labor, I assume...

I can't speak for the Giant by any means, of course, but I think you are taking this situation, only in the context of this comic, a wee bit too seriously. I seriously doubt that anything horrific is going to befall Haley, and I am just waiting to see how it will resolve. I would hate to see her traumatized (more that the destruction of her precious loot, poor darling) and I would also hate to see sex used as a weapon, and if it comes to that, I might join you in being upset, but that is by no means certain to happen. Where is tension supposed to come from if not the threat of horrible things happening?

Sorry if I was unclear. I am seriously NOT expecting this to happen. In fact, if it does happen, I will be EXTREMELY suprised, not to mention angry. I just started in on this discussion merely because of several threads that were positing that that may happen, I seriously doubt it will as well.

Master_Kindel

2006-11-27, 05:47 PM

Master Kindel enjoyed the the strip! Hooray for the Giant!

SteveMB

2006-11-27, 05:53 PM

I've no issue with emotional torment that many of the characters have undergone in the past months, but the whole sexual overtones as of late, and a potential deceitful seduction on the horizon may be a bit much... I think it just objectifies a vulnerable woman as being stupid and weak - and quite frankly, I always felt Haley was one of the strongest characters. It disappoints me.
I don't see her as being portrayed as "stupid and weak". Yes, she's picked just the wrong time to stop listening to the cautionary voices in her head, and she's clearly showing the strain of being unable to communicate (if some of the readers are sick of it, imagine what it's like for the character experiencing it), but it comes across to me as an understandable moment of bad judgment.

Arin

2006-11-27, 05:55 PM

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, cause, 6 pages, YEESH, but has anyone noticed that the prophecy has been fulfilled? The gift horse has come calling, and Haley's not looking it in the mouth...

Cryptarch

2006-11-27, 05:57 PM

I don't see her as being portrayed as "stupid and weak". Yes, she's picked just the wrong time to stop listening to the cautionary voices in her head, and she's clearly showing the strain of being unable to communicate (if some of the readers are sick of it, imagine what it's like for the character experiencing it), but it comes across to me as an understandable moment of bad judgment.

I agree. That is how it has struck me as well.

warmachine

2006-11-27, 06:01 PM

Unless the author is writing his own psychology theories, Haley is starting to resolve her spiritual crisis. A person is a complex amalgam of archetypes and personas and the hallucinations are subdominant archetypes that are splitting off due to deep conflict and are trying to become dominant. Self loathing manifesting itself and trying to recruit other, less-energised aspects is real bad! However, instead of suppressing the self loathing, Haley's dominant persona is starting to find a balance between desires, such as being with Elan and avoiding risk of vulnerability.

Progress with her desire for Elan should drain some energy from her self loathing persona. However, there's still Haley's inability to save her father, who is very important to her, so self loathing isn't going away yet. I suspect the loss of her treasure, wrecking her chances of raising the ransom in time, is what triggered the aphasia.

I sympathise with Haley. Resolving a spiritual crisis is frightening.

Aurumvorax

2006-11-27, 06:05 PM

"Self-Hatred: We have a major crisis on our hands here
Vanity: I know! I'm not even sure we'll fit into that dress! Much less find shoes in time!!
Self-Hatred: No, Haley's Vanity that's not what I'm talking about.
Vanity: Oh sorry. You're worried about how we'll do our hair, then."

Ooooh!! That. :smallbiggrin: Was.:smallbiggrin: Hilarious:smallbiggrin: I'm definitely adding that dialog to my list of OotS favorites. *ROFL*

Grim Greyscale

2006-11-27, 06:09 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Haley looks better with full plate armour and a longsword than she does normally?:smalltongue:

Sky_Schemer

2006-11-27, 06:11 PM

Shut up, whiners. Seriously.

This is hardly an appropriate response to people who disagree on the direction of the current storyline. Have you ever thought, for one moment, that it's possible to have a difference of opinion without resorting to some form of "if you don't like it, then leave"?

Cryptarch

2006-11-27, 06:11 PM

Grim Greyscale, I... Love... Your... Avatar!

Grim Greyscale

2006-11-27, 06:21 PM

Grim Greyscale, I... Love... Your... Avatar!

You mean Limecat? He's not all that cool. I'm just using it as a replacement avatar until I get around to making a proper one to match my username. Knowing me, that'll be a while. But there's a whole thread devoted to avatars up in Friendly Banter. You'll find plenty of cooler ones there.

Also, "Who wears that sort of crap?" "You do." heh. Damn funny. I am concerned at Haley's severe lack of inner self things. Unless there's a lot offscreen, she only has ten as of current. Pitiful. <_<

twerk_face

2006-11-27, 06:26 PM

The jokes have become disturbing (what about the kids that play this game???); Dates? Bisexuality? Seriously, Giant, couldn't you come up with something better than that?

Could you please not refer to bisexuality as "disturbing?" It actually offends me (and probably other peopl on the site) even though I am straight.

**sorry for double posting. posted, then saw this coment and had to post again.

Mr Wizard

2006-11-27, 06:27 PM

Why does Haley's Vanity look kind of plain?

Heh, This may have been answered before, I cant tell with all the "nitpickery" going on; I don't feel like reading through it all to tell if it has.

However, I theorize that her Vanity manifested as her own self image. It is comparable to an anorexic seeing herself as fat in a mirror. Therefore, Vanity looks like every self-criticism Haley has for her physical form.

Fenix

2006-11-27, 06:32 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Haley looks better with full plate armour and a longsword than she does normally?:smalltongue:

Indeed, she looks very cool ! Not very good garderobe for rogue on the other hand :smallbiggrin:

Maratanos

2006-11-27, 06:32 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Haley looks better with full plate armour and a longsword than she does normally?:smalltongue:

And a CLOAK! :biggrin:

Aliquid

2006-11-27, 06:42 PM

That being said, I really don't like the idea of even speculating at sex being used as a weapon - which is what is potentially going to happenNo... it is not going to happen. It isn't potential, it is absolutely not going to happen. I am willing to bet a large quantity of money that Nale will not succeed at taking advantage of Haley physically. At most he might kiss her, but it will not go any further than that before Haley figures out who he is, or they are interrupted. I guarantee it.

- and what makes it worse is that it's in no way subtle! I also don't like that the comic is showing the manipulation and objectification of women simply because they're in a temporarily fragile state.
Not subtle? Where in the comic does it make any reference to sex? For all we know, Nale just wants to have a nice dinner with her while she is wearing revealing clothing.

The comic in no way endorses the manipulation and objectification of women. Actually it shows that this is the behavior of a pathetic and evil man.

Alynn

2006-11-27, 06:54 PM

Ok, I only registered to reply to a few people...

To whomever says the plotlines are dragging on far too long.
Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons, where plotlines go on forever, even if the characters don't. Long drawn out storylines are the meat and potatoes of D&D. If they weren't like this, then the big bad evil guy would kill them instantly with his level 20 powers while they are still a band of ungangly heroes at level 3.

To those that say "bisexuality, what about the children?!?"
I find it amusing that people will go up in arms about the mentioning of the word bisexual, especially in a comic where it shows plenty of living creatures slaughtered. Violence good, but sex is bad! Did you throw the same sort of fit when the two dwarves had their deep, deep, dark, dark, deep, dark pit love affair in the dungeon when they were seperated from their groups?

Rich has said that he isn't catering to a young audience. And frankly I'm of the opinion, that if a parent doesn't want their children reading things like this, they they shouldn't leave their child unsupervised on the internet. There is far worse things that can be found and heard on the net, just as free and easily accessed.

To those saying you are concentrating too much on characters and not enough of the group.
Again, welcome to D&D. Players don't make up elaborate backstories for their characters so that they never get to use them. They make them so that the characters get their moment in the spotlight, whatever that spotlight may be. This is, what I call as a DM, a character break, where the main plot takes a break to give a little face time to the individual characters.

These forays are more than rewarding, for the player, the DM, and the group as a whole, as it allows the characters glimpses into each others personal lives. In other words, they go from being a group of sell swords put together by circumstance (or they met in the bar), into comrades in arms.

To those telling the whiners to shut up
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They stated theirs, and you in return are able to state yours. Neithers arguments cancel the others out, however a well thought out rebuttal is perfectly fine, and fosters debate. Telling someone to just shut up starts arguements, and arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics, even if you win, you are still retarded.

I'm sure there is a few others that I missed, but onto my opinions.

Excellent as always Rich, been reading for a long long time now, and I like how the comic seems to start as a lighthearted poke at an RPG, and has developed and matured into a complex plot with many twists and turns, and multiple layers.

Today's was nice with the multiple personality discussion, and especially with Haley finally just... going for it, even though it's at the worst possible time. Although in retrospect on my life, it seems every time I've ever gone for anything it was always at the worst possible time.

Norenche

2006-11-27, 07:00 PM

Alysar

2006-11-27, 07:19 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Haley looks better with full plate armour and a longsword than she does normally?:smalltongue:

Hey, never say 'no' to a belly shirt on a nice-looking woman :smallbiggrin:

Nightfall

2006-11-27, 07:27 PM

Alysar, I just choked on my raspberry water when I saw your signature group! It didn't register until I saw the dorky little barbarian on the end with the unicorn. I hated that show by the way, heh heh. Thanks for the chuckle!:wink:

Sliverghost

2006-11-27, 07:30 PM

well man did not see this coming as someone said Ironic lets gard down now of all times this will not end well dont go Haley well i never gessed he would tell all of them in one comic Great Rich

--THINK"

"no"

"you're saying no to thinking?"

Alysar

2006-11-27, 07:31 PM

Alysar, I just choked on my raspberry water when I saw your signature group!

Then my hard work was not in vain :smallsmile:

*Takes a bow*

Turcano

2006-11-27, 07:31 PM

The moment a few references (note that these aren't even illustrated... only mentioned) to sex, and so many people get up in arms. Says something about our culture, doesn't it.

Yeah, that explains all the outrage that was expressed when Durkon and Hilgya or Roy and Celia did the dirty deed. Oh wait. That never happened. Nevermind. :smallannoyed:

Maratanos

2006-11-27, 07:35 PM

Yeah, that explains all the outrage that was expressed when Durkon and Hilgya or Roy and Celia did the dirty deed. Oh wait. That never happened. Nevermind. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, I think we're mostly in agreement that it has to do with the RAPE, not the sex.

(yeah, there's some disagreement about terminology, but we're all basically thinking the same thing)

CelestialStick

2006-11-27, 07:37 PM

Over the weekend I reread the first 194 strips. I found that for most of them I laughed out loud at some point. I can't say the same for most of the more recent strips.

That doesn't mean, however, that I don't like the more recent strips. There's more to the comic than D&D rules gags and funny references to various science fiction and fantasy literature I enjoy. The characters have broadened and deepened as the plot has grown more complex and grown beyond simple D&D satire. I can see why some people drawn to the early strips might not enjoy the current strips as much. They're different, and I'm fortunate in that I enjoy both.

Cuindless

2006-11-27, 07:46 PM

To those that say "bisexuality, what about the children?!?"
I find it amusing that people will go up in arms about the mentioning of the word bisexual, especially in a comic where it shows plenty of living creatures slaughtered. Violence good, but sex is bad! Did you throw the same sort of fit when the two dwarves had their deep, deep, dark, dark, deep, dark pit love affair in the dungeon when they were seperated from their groups?

Exactly! Horrific scenes of bloody, dismembering violence? YAY! How hilarious! Belkar wearing a kobold head as a hat! Haley kissed a girl more than once? WHORE!!!

Grim Greyscale

2006-11-27, 07:51 PM

Yeah, I think we're mostly in agreement that it has to do with the RAPE, not the sex.

(yeah, there's some disagreement about terminology, but we're all basically thinking the same thing)

Uhhh... I'm totally not seeing where this whole "Rape" thing is coming from. Firstly, Nale hasn't DONE anything yet, except ask her out to dinner. Oh noes. Secondly, tricking someone into having sex with you is not rape. It's most certainly not a Good act, but it's not rape. However, I doubt it'll even get to that. Nale will almost certainly screw up at some point during the dinner.

Tobimaro

2006-11-27, 07:52 PM

Just when we think that Haley was going to figure out the whole "Elan not acting like Elan" thing, she ignores her Sense Motive skill and decides to act a bit more like Elan. This does not look very hopeful. :smalleek:

I liked the last panel, where Intellect was expounding on the existence of Haley's various personas, and the reactions from Mistrust, Vanity, and the one in white (not sure her role). And then Self-Loathing reaction: "Gods, I hate you all." :smallbiggrin:

Alysar

2006-11-27, 07:59 PM

the one in white (not sure her role)

The one in white is Haley's self-reliance as seen in #319 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0319.html)

Astro_Fez

2006-11-27, 08:01 PM

I think Haley's Self-Loathing seems so smart is because when you hate something, you are always able to find the faults in it. She is so used to doing that, she finds fault in everything Nale did.

Caractacus

2006-11-27, 08:07 PM

I have to add my voice to those who are pointing out that, while Haley IS in a vulnerable position at the moment, it is NOT objectifying women to show an EVIL and SELF-ABSORBED would-be BROTHER-MURDERER trying to date her.

WE know (or we think we do) that Nale has more plans than a meal, but the very fact that the vast majority of the posters on this forum are concerned for Haley or up in arms about her position indicates that we hold true the same values that we should: exploitation is wrong (of the good and kind - more so). We can SEE that. We are worried for Haley. Well, we SHOULD be.

If this was some sad soap opera on TV, we wouldn't be so bothered, but, although she is a stick character, the overwhelming majority of this board would sooner see Nale dead than Haley hurt (although for humour's sake, we tolerate and laugh with Nale).

Let's face it. If one of these two were to be real and trapped in a lift with you, how many would choose the psychopath with the massive over-reaction to any perceived slight over the thief with a kind heart?

Darkspear

2006-11-27, 08:13 PM

Heh, This may have been answered before, I cant tell with all the "nitpickery" going on; I don't feel like reading through it all to tell if it has.

However, I theorize that her Vanity manifested as her own self image. It is comparable to an anorexic seeing herself as fat in a mirror. Therefore, Vanity looks like every self-criticism Haley has for her physical form.

Ouch. If you look at the filler:
http://www.giantitp.com/Images/fanart/ootslate1.gif

You'll notice that Haley's vanity (thus the attractive part of Haley) looks a lot like a recoloring of the Giant's girlfriend.

Which is cute!

Maratanos

2006-11-27, 08:14 PM

Let's face it. If one of these two were to be real and trapped in a lift with you, how many would choose the psychopath with the massive over-reaction to any perceived slight over the thief with a kind heart?

Me me me me me me me me!

Blink Dawg

2006-11-27, 08:23 PM

Mr. Burlew; the last three strips have been sheer awesome.

That is al.

Caractacus

2006-11-27, 08:27 PM

:smallsmile:
Me me me me me me me me!:smallsmile:

charik

2006-11-27, 08:31 PM

I really enjoyed this one (heck, I've enjoyed them all!).

And :haley:'s behavior is, under the circumstances, perfectly normal and to be expected.

Glarx

2006-11-27, 09:14 PM

This is more hotly debated than....hmm....what is something that was obscenely debated? Whether or not the newest Star Wars was bad. I compare this newest post to that, but without the bad actor (teenage Darth Vader = Bad Acting, in my own opinion, but hey, who cares about that, eh?). There is character development, although the direction that it is taking is, perhaps, hinting towards a more... mature theme, if you will. But then again, remember, for every ounce of happiness in the world, there is 17.83 gallons of evil. So perhaps this schism is caused not because of the content, but because of our own fears? I dunno; I'm just one man.

Right, well, I can't honestly say that I enjoyed this one, but then again, I can't say I hated it. It is a VITAL part of every piece of literature. By Jove, read any classic; there will be some pages that are hinting towards a darker path, and then, BAM, to our astonishment, we were dead wrong. Lord, how funny would it be if Haley KNOWS that Nale is Nale? Hmm? Won't that be a fun comic... but once more, we'll have to wait for it, yes?

Okay, now, I found this little site out while, and this is strange, while wikipedia-ing the word phylactery, which led to lich, which led to Xykon, which led to Order of the Stick, and then, ergo, I found this. I read every comic within the day I found it. There is a notable change in the writing style. In the past (and I am going on a discourse; those who don't care for long, drawn-out, dry lectures, go ahead and skip o'er this post.) there was a QUEST! Yes, imagine that. A QUEST. Where is said quest? Forgotten. We're still waiting for Mr. Drunk-Teleporter to be revived, which, in the linear time line that we can only assume Mr. the Giant has to follow, should have already occurred BEFORE the inevitable dinner fiasco. So! Therein lies the plot that Mr. the Giant is making; Xykon isn't prepared for the Order to be in the Azure City, and therefore, will be taken by surprise (Haley's sneak attack, perhaps?). And Elan. What is he doing right now? And Sabine; she'll be back after the dinner, so that can be awkward... nonetheless, I'll end my discourse for the sake of space.

Listen, I love the Order. Really I do. But, sadly, there has been a change. However, it is up to us, the readers, to decide if it was a good or bad change. As that strange silvery-blue man Captain Planet said..."THE POWER IS YOURS!"

5tephen

2006-11-27, 09:44 PM

Wow!
People are really touchy about this one, aren't they?

I put it down to the Hayley factor. Everybody loves Hayley, and lots of people hate the cryptograms (I love 'em) and most poeple love/hate Nale. All that adds up to LOTs of tension.

Can I just point out though, that the Hayley/Crypto plot thread hasn't been running for all that long?

Before you shout me down: it has been 135 strips ths far. Yes, that is around 1/3 of the total lenght of the overall story, but really: that would be about 4 or 5 issues of a standard comic book. Considering that Miss Starshine isn't 'the main' character, and that there has been a lot of cut-away and expositional storytelling going on throughout all those strips, when Hayley wouldn't have had any dialogue anyway- it's not that long!

And Rich has used the condition to create some humour, and drama. It has been the source of jokes, tension, and plot development.

I can understand the frustrations, but it will be alright folks. And when you read it all in one sitting when you get your Volumes 2 & 3, you will be surprised at how much easier it seems.

I think Rich is a victim of his own sucess, and the medium he works in. When you have to do all the work yourself, it is very difficult to pump the content out fast enough to keep people happy. And he has grandiose visions for this little stick figure story he is telling. I can't see it wrapping up in under 600 Strips. (Which frankly, again, I love.)

Angela Christine

2006-11-27, 10:10 PM

I was way off for most of my guesses for the different haleys, (except for wisdom, I was close) but I don't understand why the Mistrust has a sword and armor although I can't think of a better image for mistrust

The armor is defensive. Mistrust is also defensive. Both keep people from getting too close. Both keep you from getting hurt. That makes perfect sense to me.

On the downside, both also prevent intimacy. You can't hug a person wearing plate armor. :smalleek:

Isn't it ironic that self loathing is the only one who thinks straight and gets it right?

I think that is an illusion created by the fact the we, the audience, know that self loathing happens to be right in this instance, so she seems clever and perceptive. She is just as one dimensional as the rest of the personality fragments.

If someone had a long heart to heart with Elan and told him to finally make his move, Self Loathing would react exactly the same way. Presumably his speech would have been a little different and the gift dress would have been less skanky, but Self Loathing totally would still have said, "Look, men that we've been pining over for the better part of a year do not spontaneously decide to just sweep us off our feet with flowers and new dresses. That just doesn't happen to girls like us." Later she gets into the dodgy details, but at first she senses something is wrong simply because she doesn't believe anyone would try to sweep Haley off her feet. If it really was Elan finally figuring out that he likes Haley, we'd all be going "Go for it Haley! Shut up, Self Loathing."

dragoncmd

2006-11-27, 10:20 PM

best strip in a VERY long time if only cause haley communicates half intelligbly, even if its only with her self.

Grey Knight

2006-11-27, 10:46 PM

Ouch. If you look at the filler:
http://www.giantitp.com/Images/fanart/ootslate1.gif

You'll notice that Haley's vanity (thus the attractive part of Haley) looks a lot like a recoloring of the Giant's girlfriend.

Which is cute!

I think the resemblance is just due to their not being many long-skirted characters in the comic. It'd be nice if it were true though, and I guess we'll never really know. :smallsmile:

Best Quote candidate:

:haley: (self-loathing): "Plus, I think he checked out our rack at one point."

(...I'm a paladin, I swear)

Barkhauer

2006-11-27, 10:59 PM

How Haley will find out seems obvious to me...

Back in strip #28 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html)Haley goes off to see what Elan looks like naked. Or as she puts it, what "18 charisma is worth 'under the hood.'" At some point Nale removes a piece of clothing and a birthmark is different, etc?

Anyway, another longtime fan, first time poster. This comic seems to have brought a lot of us out of the woodwork.

mikeejimbo

2006-11-27, 11:33 PM

Haley's Latent Bisexuality, I liked that one. But mostly I thought "Hmm, if Haley was that impressed by 'Elan's' forwardness, maybe I should do something similar for the girl I like."

Then I thought "Nah" and went back to the corner.

Kython

2006-11-27, 11:33 PM

wait... she's doing exactly what the oracle said she'd do to restore her speech, remember;

:haley: : Bfqe zqp M rt et fjketfj wi kljjzf?
Oracle : When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth.

this is one hell of a gift horse ("elan" suddenly figuring out her feelings and wanting to be with her) and she isn't looking said horse in the mouth (dropping her mistrust at the worst possible time!) this may yet be when she regains her speech... her first words probably being "You're not Elan!!!"

Fillbert

2006-11-27, 11:41 PM

All I can say is that it is about time Haley started talking in an understandable vernacular. The crypto-speech was cool for a while, but grew old (IMO) after about 25 strips or so. Thank You Rich

SupraGuy

2006-11-27, 11:49 PM

Haley CAN talk intelligibly... To her mental constructs. Just not to any real people.

Still not to sure who "Red" is, but I kinda wonder what her phone number is...

bosssmiley

2006-11-27, 11:53 PM

"No one asked you, Haley´s Latent Bisexuality. "
:smallbiggrin:

We demand that Haley's Latent Bisexuality becomes a recurring character, and maybe gets her own spin-off strip! Oh my yes... :smalltongue: :smallwink:

GJ Giant.

caldazar

2006-11-28, 12:32 AM

OK, so I didn't read this entire 8-page thread to see if anybody has already pointed this out...I presume someone has...but just in response to the "OMG Haley is so stupid!" posts that were earlier.

Haley is doing *exactly* the right thing. Yes, even though it should be obvious that this isn't really Elan, it's still clearly the right thing for her to do?

Why?

It's simply following prophecy:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

The gift horse is here, she isn't going to look it in the mouth.

Xi-1

2006-11-28, 12:48 AM

Elan Confessing To Haley
:elan: Hi Haley! Hi all other Haleys. No offense, but I like my Haley all in one Haley-shaped package. Please?
Haleys: [shocked] He can see us?
:elan: Oh yeah, it's part of my abilities as a Bard. I can see plot constructs.

:nale: What the bloody hell is he talking about?
:thog: thog not know. thog only know that elan-man promise thog cookies. and ice cream. with sprinkles. and puppies.
Ztdriz: And revenge,
:nale: Weren't you being sued?
Ztdriz: I rearranged my name. Now I'll rearrange your face.
:nale: What?!
Ztdriz: That was the deal,

:elan: C'mon, Haley, I wanna take you somewhere.
:roy: Nice Grapple Check,
:durkon: Aye,
:haley:[shouldn't I put on something more--]
:elan: --and what you're wearing is perfect.
:haley: [Wha?]
:elan: Haven't I told you before? I like you most the way you are. Although I liked it better when we could told to each other instead of at each other.

And since it was suggested, Stuck In The Elevator:

Maintenance Guy: Sorry, the elevator's stuck and we can only take one person out at a time. Who's going first?
:mitd: Me!
:xykon: Why you?
:mitd: Because if not me I shall blend your bones to dust in the cuisinart and serve it over spagetti with parmasean!
:xykon: See, now that's better than thyme or parsley.
:haley: What?
:thog: please keep pretty girl away from thog
:haley:now it kicks in?
:belkar:I know a quick and permanant way to keep her away from you,
:elan: NO!
:belkar: There ya go, killin' my buzz again!
:nale: Elan,
:elan: Nale,
:nale: Elan,
:roy: [shuffles uncomfortably]
:nale: Elan,
:elan: Look, we've already been through this.
:thog: [bludgeons Nale with the flat of his axe] thog shut up nale,
:xykon: You know, I could use a guy like you in my organization,
:thog: Skull-man have ice cream?
:xykon: Yes,
:thog: With sprinkles?
:xykon: Yes,
:thog: ... thog like puppies.
:xykon:... I can give you all the puppies you want,
MG: Who's next?
:roach: Me! Me! Me! Before I get squished.
:redcloak: Didn't even know he was in here,

To Be Continued

mikeyq6

2006-11-28, 12:51 AM

Another great strip.

There seems to be a lot of discord with this strip. There is an expectation that each strip should be the best, almost as if the strip should be constantly outdoing itself in terms of laughs. As the recent strip polls for some of the earlier strips shows, there are inevitably some strips that are funnier than others, and even some that are not so funny at all, but are more important to the story and plot development.

Personally, I find all of the loose threads and hanging plotlines to be a great addition to the feel of the strip. All these possibilities lurking in the background ensure that there will be lots of surprises waiting around the corner, coming up when least expected (eg. Nale's sudden appearance when the OOTS were sleeping after the oracle).

It is a given that the longer a story goes for, the more plots and characters will appear and be given a somewhat permanent role in the OOTS universe.

Keep up the good work, Giant!

Helgraf

2006-11-28, 01:04 AM

Xi-1

2006-11-28, 01:05 AM

Evil In the Elevator

:roy: So how's everyone holding up?
:vaarsuvius: I am in the optimum condition given our current circumstances.
:thog: thog not understand,
:vaarsuvius: I'm fine,
:elan: Me too... although someone just touched my--
:haley: Tee-hee!
:durkon: This reminds me of the mines back home,
:belkar: As long as no one touches me in a wierd place, I won't have to kill anyone at random.
:nale: Not if I kill you first,
:sabine: Save it -- hey!
:redcloak: Move your wing out of my face, Fiend.
:sabine: Remove your hand from my--
:nale: Huh?
:redcloak: Oh, sorry.
:miko: That's mine,
:redcloak: Sorry!
:xykon: And just when we were starting to make a proper villain of you,
:thog: thog getting bored.
:nale: and :sabine: ROYALE CRAPAGE!
:rob: Huh?
:nale: Hey! If you're not gonna haul one of us out of here, bring us some ice cream!
:sabine: Lots of it!
:thog: with sprinkles.
MG: Okay, who's--
:redcloak: I'm outta here,
:xykon: Leaving me behind?
:redcloak: Just use Raise Dead on the not-survivors,
:xykon: Point,
:nale: At least bring that ice cream!
:roy: Quit it!
:xykon: But that's MY crown!

To Be Continued

Mr._Wilson

2006-11-28, 01:07 AM

I don't want to be misunderstood. My gut feeling is that this is the situation involved in the Prophecy as well, and it will resolve a few storylines, most likely in Haley's favor.

I just pointed out the (dramatic) irony in the situation and my gut reaction to the situation, "Poor Haley".

I like the story more than the comedy, so I'm ok with how the comedy is taking a back seat right now. But, personally, I don't think the comedy has fallen off that much either. Some of the game-rules jokes have fallen off , but really, there's only so many new one's you can tell after over 400 comics (counting Dragon, OtOoPC, bonus strips).

That said, if I was Giant, I'd be happy with the passion brought out by my work, both good and bad.

Helgraf

2006-11-28, 01:08 AM

I agree with you. As much as I'm not in favor of the turn the comic has taken as of late, they comic itself is still good quality. Very good actually. I just think it's getting a bit obtuse in mature matters where formerly more mature content was much more discreet.

I've no issue with emotional torment that many of the characters have undergone in the past months, but the whole sexual overtones as of late, and a potential deceitful seduction on the horizon may be a bit much... I think it just objectifies a vulnerable woman as being stupid and weak - and quite frankly, I always felt Haley was one of the strongest characters. It disappoints me.

I know I'm likely in the minority where this is concerned.

This is presumptative of a foregone conclusion. A few people have been spouting Admiral Akbar's line (IT'S A TRAP) ... I prefer this dialogue

If it is a trap, then why are we going in?
Because we know it is a trap, and knowing that, we can turn it to our advantage.

Krytha

2006-11-28, 01:13 AM

Everytime I read the comic, :haley:'s mistrust cracks me up.

Zeku

2006-11-28, 01:20 AM

I wouldn't get too worried about this one. Any problem that can be created can be fixed.

I'm willing to bet the people getting stressed about this comic don't believe that.

Not attempting to be critical here, but the idea that an 'oracle' exists, and the fact that that oracle's words must naturally comes to pass, kind of lends power to that negative faith.

I would be happiest if the oracle turned out to be wrong, on all points.

Xi-1

2006-11-28, 01:22 AM

Evil Impulses
:elan:Ow!
:belkar:I warned you I was gettin' bored... not that this wouldn't happen anyway.
:miko:Don't you dare touch me with your dirty steel -- Ow!
:belkar:I'm an equal-opportunity stabber.
:nale:*&%^
:belkar:See?
:thog:thog join little man.
:durkon:Cure Light Wounds. Cure Light Wounds.
:belkar:Oh yeah! This could go on forever this way.
:xykon:Forgot about the cleric,
MG: Who's next?
:vaarsuvius: I believe I shall take this opportunity to make my exit,
:roy:You're lucky there's not enough room to draw our weapons in here,
:belkar:Speak for yourself,
:elan: Evade, evade, evade my psychopathic teammate!
:nale: *&^%
:sabine: Is this any way to treat a lady?!
:haley: It is when the lady's a leather-wearing skank!
MG: Next!
:durkon:Aye, I'd best take my leave.
:roy: Ow -- Belkar!
:xykon: Yoink!
:roy: My trophy!
:xykon: MY crown,
:haley: OWW!
:elan: BELKAR! [thwacks Belar unconcsious with Banjo] And when you wake up he'll smite you again.
:haley: Wow,
:nale: ...Perhaps ther's hope for my brother after all...
:sabine: ...Oww! Who was that?
:thog: thog uncomfortable with silence.
MG: Next!
:miko:I don't need to use Detect Evil to tell me this won't end well.

Umael

2006-11-28, 01:58 AM

Quite the powder keg here.

I think that means that the Giant has done an admirable job.

Look at how many people who posted in this thread mentioned that they registered for just this reason - to post in this thread.

Rich has people's interests. Some think the work is wonderful, some think it is horrible.

I don't.

The work is not done yet.

I was interested enough in what I read earlier that I'm still reading. I believe it is as foolish to praise as it is to condemn the work before its completion. I also believe it is insulting to say that you know the direction the work will take, but that's another issue.

Those of you who didn't like this particular comic strip, well, you have some points. This didn't seem interesting or comedic to you. Can't argue with you about your opinions.

But keep a little faith in Rich's ability to entertain in the end. He's carried you this far, hasn't he?

Cryptarch

2006-11-28, 02:24 AM

Uhhh... I'm totally not seeing where this whole "Rape" thing is coming from. Firstly, Nale hasn't DONE anything yet, except ask her out to dinner. Oh noes. Secondly, tricking someone into having sex with you is not rape. It's most certainly not a Good act, but it's not rape. However, I doubt it'll even get to that. Nale will almost certainly screw up at some point during the dinner.

Sorry to come back to this, I'm not digging up the discussion again, I promise. I just want to point out that it could be considered rape. If someone did that to me, or to someone I know, I would definately consider it rape. There was something... similar but not exactly like it in a film I saw recently and it made me very angry at the characters responsible. But it was not a comic, and, as always, I don't forsee the comic going that far.
*bounces* I'm really eager for the next strip! Can we just skip Tuesday, do you think?

Grim Greyscale

2006-11-28, 02:37 AM

Sorry to come back to this, I'm not digging up the discussion again, I promise. I just want to point out that it could be considered rape. If someone did that to me, or to someone I know, I would definately consider it rape. There was something... similar but not exactly like it in a film I saw recently and it made me very angry at the characters responsible. But it was not a comic, and, as always, I don't forsee the comic going that far.
*bounces* I'm really eager for the next strip! Can we just skip Tuesday, do you think?

You're not really good at not bringing up the discussion again. But anyway, I checked it up.

1.the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. 2.any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape)

Unless Nale actually points a sword at her, it's not rape. You might CONSIDER it as such, but by the book, it's not.

Atheist_Cleric

2006-11-28, 02:59 AM

This comic was dammmn funny. I love the joke about how when a person thinks, all these aspects of them have an arguement in the persons subconcious. Haley's mistrust was hilarious, I know a D&D player like that, he refused to help out on our main quest to avert the apocalypse because he didnt believe it was going to happen, no matter how much proof we gave him. Haley's subdued bisexuality was pretty funny too. The only thing I was a bit sad about here is that I cant see many ways that this can end well for Haley. Even if she figures out that it's Nale, unless it happens right away, there's no telling how far along he'll string her, and the more he does, the more stupid and hurt she'll feel when she eventually finds out. Heck, what would be really sad and ironic is if the whole experience kills Haley's attraction, just as Elan escapes and realises that he really likes her. Then HE would be interested, but she wouldnt....ouch.

CockroachTeaParty

2006-11-28, 03:14 AM

I just find it odd that nobody notices Nale's "patch" where his goatee used to be. But then again, in a world void of noses or other defining facial features, or real voices for that matter, I'll let it slide.

I wonder if everyone with a specific color of voice bubble sounds the same?

Yzorth

2006-11-28, 03:23 AM

I'd just like to say.... Gosh darn it Rich! Why did you post so early? Now I don't have a reason to stay up 'til 3 in the morning waiting for a new comic strip to come!

As some of you might have guessed, I was being sarcastic (at least somewhat ;D).

Anyway, really nice post. I love it! I love the plot and story that OOTS has had so far, so great job.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that this will lead to Haley getting her speech problem fixed. I'm not 100% certain, but that would be cool to see exactly how that resolves. I think Elan trying to get out of prison might somehow be involved with it, but probably not. I dunno. Just speculation.

Anyway, great strip. Always nice to see a new OOTS, and I just love the storyline. Keep 'em coming! =D

Lauren

2006-11-28, 04:58 AM

As a rape survivor, I have to say I'm sick of people dragging out the dictionary definition. There's more to it than that, and even the police will tell you so.

Apart from that, I love this comic -- I know exactly what those mental interactions are like!

divine

2006-11-28, 05:06 AM

to all you people posting spoiler threads with totally unrelated made up stories of your own with the characters being stuck in elevators or whatever:
PLEASE go start your own thread.. it's just annoying here
kthxbye

divine

2006-11-28, 05:08 AM

my bad, it's just one person -- though please still follow my advice.

and since I'm posting again I'll comment on Haley, and my comment would be IF YOU LOVE HIM SO MUCH HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW IT ISN'T HIM!?

rawr

Freelance Henchman

2006-11-28, 05:27 AM

Tune in next week for another exciting episode of "Haley's Head"!

Fenix

2006-11-28, 05:59 AM

Wordmaker

2006-11-28, 06:47 AM

It's already been posted in another thread that it, if someone were to sleep with someone under the belief that they are another actual person (not simply "a fighter pilot") with whom they would ordinarily sleep with, it's legally considered rape. At least, in the UK at any rate. Which probably means it would be judged similarly here in Ireland.

As for the US, the specifics would vary from state to state.

Either way, there's legal precident.

Fenix

2006-11-28, 06:59 AM

Wordmaker

2006-11-28, 07:21 AM

Not being a lawyer, I wouldn't know. However I personally would not consider it rape if both parties were unaware of the truth. A horrible set of circumstances, yes, but not rape.

Blood

2006-11-28, 07:35 AM

Only now do I realize - Haley left the room without taking the dress.

Meh. Nale will probably attack her either way.

Legiao

2006-11-28, 07:45 AM

lol ?
If Nale if going to strike Haley it will be from behind...
No doubt this is going to be fun, and yes Haley will know something s wrong but it will be too late

Amon Star

2006-11-28, 08:04 AM

How do you know he doesn't?

Just a guess, because :vaarsuvius: would have used it on :haley: to know what she's saying otherwise. On the other hand, :haley: would hate having anyone in side her mind and :vaarsuvius: probably knows her well enough to know that, so there goes my theory.

When I heard Self-Loathing call Blonde Haley 'Peroxide' it evoked memories of Sabine and Haley insulting each other while seeking the Air Sigil. Haley said she was a natural redhead, after all, and that's backed up by Roy's father's prophecy [when the goat turns, red strikes true]. Although if Haley WASN"T a natural auburn, woul Roy's dead dad necessarily know? And would that matter to the prophecy since it was Roy who needed to know it?

I think you're on to something there. Could that be Haley's 'Dark Secret' that she tried to tell Elan, that she's not a natural red-head?

V could very easily know the spell. She just has no particular reason to cast it on Not-Elan.

I'm afraid you're mistaken. We're taking about using it on :haley: to know what she's saying.

to all you people posting spoiler threads with totally unrelated made up stories of your own with the characters being stuck in elevators or whatever:
PLEASE go start your own thread.. it's just annoying here
kthxbye

I like the Elevator Saga.

battleburn

2006-11-28, 08:32 AM

I think you're on to something there. Could that be Haley's 'Dark Secret' that she tried to tell Elan, that she's not a natural red-head?
Take a look at Haley's self loathing. She painted her hair black, but you see some new grown hair in the original color, red.

Movoza

2006-11-28, 09:57 AM

lets make my tribute to the discussion

liked the comic

Klio

2006-11-28, 10:06 AM

There's a small handful of us who seem to get the idea. Of course, one has to choose to develop it. Bleh. Concept clear in brain, expressing it on paper not working like I want it to.
Hard expressing on pixels, too :smallsmile:

I should have included the thought that a comic can hit something quite real and deep and spot on, and be very moving, and disturbing to the core, and utterly painful, but also funny enough for laughing-out-loud. Because I did laugh out loud at this comic, even while wondering about Rich's trans-dimensional gender-swapping.

Which goes to show (as I struggle to express it): Although a lot of guys see female people as something strange and different-than-normal that needs to be figured out in a "what women are like" summary (whoops, carrying in some baggage from another message forum, am I?), some guys are phenomenal observers of other people and get at all the machinery that makes a woman like Haley tick. These are the people who create memorable female characters, which Haley certainly is. I might have to reconsider that Roy shoulder tattoo and get a Haley instead!

And to think I just came here for the D&D refs and one-liners. Darn it, I'm getting a quality story, too!

Alysar

2006-11-28, 10:13 AM

Tune in next week for another exciting episode of "Haley's Head"!

Thank you! Thank you so much for a great reference to an obscure and oh-so-funny show! (And I don't care who thinks Herman's Head wasn't funny :smallmad:) That just made my morning

Cryptarch

2006-11-28, 10:30 AM

Hard expressing on pixels, too :smallsmile:

I should have included the thought that a comic can hit something quite real and deep and spot on, and be very moving, and disturbing to the core, and utterly painful, but also funny enough for laughing-out-loud. Because I did laugh out loud at this comic, even while wondering about Rich's trans-dimensional gender-swapping.

Which goes to show (as I struggle to express it): Although a lot of guys see female people as something strange and different-than-normal that needs to be figured out in a "what women are like" summary (whoops, carrying in some baggage from another message forum, am I?), some guys are phenomenal observers of other people and get at all the machinery that makes a woman like Haley tick. These are the people who create memorable female characters, which Haley certainly is. I might have to reconsider that Roy shoulder tattoo and get a Haley instead!

And to think I just came here for the D&D refs and one-liners. Darn it, I'm getting a quality story, too!

:smallbiggrin: Great, isn't it? This is, hands down, my favorite webcomic right now.