I demand!

[Crusher]

I demand an anti-refund! Turns out the books I ordered via Kickstarter were even better than I expected and my older daughter ended up reading them and really liking them as well (her favorite nightshirt is the Xykon "Evil, a growth industry!" shirt, she just got a new green teddy bear which she named Thog, and when her little sister got a brown teddy bear, she talked her sister into naming the brown one Roy).

As a result of all this unexpected extra value, I demand an anti-refund through which to make up for the debt in which I find myself to Rich. Should I buy another set of the books to make up for my daughter increasingly hogging the ones I have now? Or is there a "future book fund" which I recall was a hoped for end-result from the Kickstarter, to allow Rich the flexibility to put out the next book. I'm getting asked a couple times a week when the next book is coming out, can I contribute to help make that happen?

It result in a happy smiling 9 year old which I think is a good cause in and of itself.

[137beth]

Yea, I want an anti-refund also. I was cash-strapped during the kickstarter project, but now I have more money available and want an anti-refund to use it on!

[Bulldog Psion]

I, too, am sounding the trumpet of the anti-refund! I'm willing to donate to a Kickstarter Mark II or the original fund or whatever, to support Mr. Burlew's efforts! :smallsmile: I was poor as a bat barf during the last one, but I've got cash jingling in my pocket now, and this looks like a worthy cause to donate some of the same to.

[Tre of the Wood]

I was trying to save for college during the kickstarted, but now have recieved scholarships. I would happily kick in a few dollars! Anti-refund for me as well.

[SowZ]

Why not just merch it up? Rather than buy your daughter a set of books she already has access to, how would a new adventure game sound? Or a few new shirts which have a practical purpose.

[Tre of the Wood]

Why not just merch it up? Rather than buy your daughter a set of books she already has access to, how would a new adventure game sound? Or a few new shirts which have a practical purpose.

I would honestly rather just donate to the site than get a new T-Shirt or the like. A donate button is a bit unclassy, but perhaps a link somewhere would be okay.

[oppyu]

Frankly, I don't want the merch. Ordering stuff means you have to give the website your address (and who knows for certain where they're going to be living in future? Big issue with some kickstarters I supported) , fill in some other details, and then in a few weeks you get some crap you don't really need which you have to find a place for. I just want to donate.

[Cizak]

Rich has said several times though that he doesn't like the idea of donations, as he feels it will put him in a spot where the donators can justly demand things in the future.* The kickstarter was different because that way people actually got things if they paid.

*I don't know the exact quote(s) on the top of my head.

[KillianHawkeye]

Here's a solution for those of you with cash burning in your pockets:

Buy some OOTS merchandise and give it to a friend or familly member! Or donate it to a library or other appropriate institution!

[One Step Two]

Here's a solution for those of you with cash burning in your pockets:

Buy some OOTS merchandise and give it to a friend or familly member! Or donate it to a library or other appropriate institution!

Or the Gary Gygax Memorial fund!

[SowZ]

I would honestly rather just donate to the site than get a new T-Shirt or the like. A donate button is a bit unclassy, but perhaps a link somewhere would be okay.

Yeah, but I imagine reprinting shirts and such is simpler than reprinting books so if you are gonna buy one anyway my guess is that spending an equivalent amount on Rich is slightly more profitable.

Alternatively, send Rich a 50 dollar gift to Chili's. Everybody likes Chili's.

[Belkar<3]

If your family is into D&D, you could buy the OOTS adventure game.

[Tre of the Wood]

I think what people want with this is to play like 5-10 dollars and thus get access to the kickstarter material being produced that they otherwise would not have access to.

[ANTREMe]

Could not agree more with Tre of the Wood, I was unable to participate in kickstarter but cheered on progress from others nonetheless. OOTS is an amazing comic and now that I am able to, if the opportunity came up to purchase the new material, would do so in a heartbeat :smalltongue:

[Bird]

Alternatively, send Rich a 50 dollar gift to Chili's. Everybody likes Chili's.
I dunno. IIRC (and it's been a long time), the vegetarian offerings at Chili's are pretty spare, which would be an issue in the Giant's case. :smallwink:

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

How did Rich put his stance on donations originally? Something like, "if you have money that you wish to donate, pick your favorite charity and send it there?"

It would be cool to see a thread dedicated to donations people make based on this, though.

"Rich Burlew solves world hunger (albeit indirectly)"

[Heksefatter]

I was strapped for cash during the kickstarter too. I'd gladly donate now that things are a bit less bleak cash-wise.

[Killer Angel]

Alternatively, send Rich a 50 dollar gift to Chili's. Everybody likes Chili's.

Or, even better, send your exceeding dollars to me! :smalltongue:
In case you're wondering, I'm a nigerian prince

[SowZ]

I dunno. IIRC (and it's been a long time), the vegetarian offerings at Chili's are pretty spare, which would be an issue in the Giant's case. :smallwink:

http://www.chilis.com/EN/LocationSpecificPDF/MenuPDF/001.005.0000/Chilis%20Vegetarian%20Menu%20Generic.pdf?AspxAutoD etectCookieSupport=1

I suppose it could be more diverse. Chili's is a supporter of the humane society, though! Of course I don't know if that is Rich's main reason for being a vegetarian or not. But anyways.

I do wonder. What type of product, (books, toys, clothes,) are the most profitable for Rich? I'm guessing clothes but am not sure.

[The Giant]

I prefer not to use a straight Donation button. The simple fact is that if people are able to give money without getting a product in return, some of them will come to believe that they "paid" for the free comic and are entitled to complain when I don't hit their preferred schedule (or content).

And if you think I'm making that up, there are people who are essentially saying the same thing with regards to the Kickstarter: that even though their pledge was a direct exchange for comparably priced goods and services, they made the pledge under the assumption that supporting me financially would allow me to increase my production speed, and why haven't I done so? Since my output speed is not something I can easily increase, I prefer not to take donations that might encourage some people to think that I was beholden to do so.

All of the Kickstarter stories will (someday) be available in print. Probably not all in the same book, but spread among a few where the rest of each book was either a compilation of online strips or new material. So if you're planning on buying any books I put out, you'll eventually have it all. If you really don't like physical stuff to the point where you don't even want a book, then I guess that's going to not work. Right now, I don't have any plans for digital versions of the books, but that may change in the not-immediate future. All I can say is to hold onto your money, then.

Or (http://haitirelieffund.org/haiti-relief/) donate (https://secure.onefundboston.org/) it (http://www.humanesociety.org/) to (http://www.treesforthefuture.org/) a (http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/) worthy (http://www.awf.org/) cause (http://www.planusa.org/). That's always a good option, too.

[Rig]

Heh. For the record, I'm impressed.

[Kish]

And if you think I'm making that up, there are people who are essentially saying the same thing with regards to the Kickstarter:
And have been saying the same thing at least since the compilation books started coming out. I remember someone using the existence of the compilation books as proof that, "So it isn't free, the webcomic is just a preview."

[toughluck]

And have been saying the same thing at least since the compilation books started coming out. I remember someone using the existence of the compilation books as proof that, "So it isn't free, the webcomic is just a preview."

This is unfair, but I can see where it's coming from. The comic books have bits and pieces which are not available online (and to the best of my knowledge, never will). These bits and pieces are small, but from what I hear, they really make people appreciate Rich's work even more. If the compilation books contained just the bare comic, I think nobody would complain.

Then there's the topic of selling electronic versions. I know Rich is loathe to do this, I understand all the reasons and I would do the same if I were in his place, even though it makes me unhappy. The compilations are expensive enough to make me refrain from buying them all in one go. Shipping to where I live is also expensive, the cheapest option still being more expensive than some books (!). Buying up all in one go (exceeding the value of 150 euro) requires that I pay customs and value-added tax which will add over 30% on top of the whole order plus shipping.

So you can understand why these books are not as popular as they could be. Still, I was glad to have participated, even though the fridge magnet got lost somewhere along the way. I just hope whoever is using it, cherishes it ;)

[137beth]

This is unfair, but I can see where it's coming from. The comic books have bits and pieces which are not available online (and to the best of my knowledge, never will). These bits and pieces are small, but from what I hear, they really make people appreciate Rich's work even more. If the compilation books contained just the bare comic, I think nobody would complain.
No, I think then even more people would complain, since they'd insist that since they didn't get anything which wasn't free out of the books, they would somehow magically be entitled to demand more stuff.

[The Giant]

No, I think then even more people would complain, since they'd insist that since they didn't get anything which wasn't free out of the books, they would somehow magically be entitled to demand more stuff.

Yeah, this. The bonus material helps head off the argument that they got nothing from a $30 book that they couldn't have gotten free online, so therefore their contribution could not have been intended just to own the book. It cuts two ways, actually, in that it also encourages people who must...have...every...strip to pony up for a book that's been 90% seen already.

Also, if anyone didn't get their free magnet, contact me through the Kickstarter system and I'll mail you a new one. You paid for that, you should get it (unless you actually don't want it).

[137beth]

Also, if anyone didn't get their free magnet, contact me through the Kickstarter system and I'll mail you a new one. You paid for that, you should get it (unless you actually don't want it).
Cue people who didn't contribute to Kickstarter demanding a free magnet...

[nogall]

Cue people who didn't contribute to Kickstarter demanding a free magnet...

nope, as the Giant has asked people to contact him through Kickstarter...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Like that'll stop them.:smallfrown:

[137beth]

nope, as the Giant has asked people to contact him through Kickstarter...

Oh, I was expecting that, since the Giant never explicitly said that you should only contact him if you actually did participate, people who didn't donate anything will start demanding their free magnet:smalltongue:

[Copperdragon]

Should I buy another set of the books to make up for my daughter increasingly hogging the ones I have now?

Yes, you should. You do not want to know how our parents' comics looked. Those that we really liked and read a lot over the years were pretty... hmm... used afterwards. Not nice anymore, at all.

So get yourself a second set that you put up in a shelf somewhere. That is also nice because as Rich wrote lately, he did not make really anything on the kickstarter (it just made him the lot of extra books he can sell and live off now).
If you have a use for a second set, I think that'd be the best way to shovel more money in that direction (also probably more than you could shovel with the other merchanidse).

And get another book for... whoever. Start giving them as gifts - maybe you have friends who might like the comic or even read it, but do not buy the books. If you only find one or two, you have a steady income for Rich and also years worth of birthday presents.


Also, if anyone didn't get their free magnet, contact me through the Kickstarter system and I'll mail you a new one.

That raises a quick question: Is there any way to get the other ones I'm missing (or a full set) for those who came late to that round?
I'm under the impression you cannot order them from the website, no?

[oppyu]

@Giant In hindsight regarding the Kickstarter, would you have done things differently(aside from avoiding glass objects like the plague of course)? Less signed items, less bonus material promised, less ridiculously expensive rewards to mass produce, etc?

[Sunken Valley]

I prefer not to use a straight Donation button. The simple fact is that if people are able to give money without getting a product in return, some of them will come to believe that they "paid" for the free comic and are entitled to complain when I don't hit their preferred schedule (or content).


The Wayback Machine says you used to have a donation button in 2004-2005. One thing you used it for was to pay for your hospital bill back when you "collapsed when picking up [Scrubbed]" and didn't have health insurance. What changed your opinion in this regard? Unless I got my facts wrong and it wasn't a "straight" donation button.

[ChristianSt]

This is unfair, but I can see where it's coming from. The comic books have bits and pieces which are not available online (and to the best of my knowledge, never will). These bits and pieces are small, but from what I hear, they really make people appreciate Rich's work even more. If the compilation books contained just the bare comic, I think nobody would complain.

Then there's the topic of selling electronic versions. I know Rich is loathe to do this, I understand all the reasons and I would do the same if I were in his place, even though it makes me unhappy. The compilations are expensive enough to make me refrain from buying them all in one go. Shipping to where I live is also expensive, the cheapest option still being more expensive than some books (!). Buying up all in one go (exceeding the value of 150 euro) requires that I pay customs and value-added tax which will add over 30% on top of the whole order plus shipping.


The extra bits aren't really essential (but Start of Darkness is a really great book, albeit it is quite dark compared to the main comic), but the Giant stated multiple times you don't need to read them to understand the main comic (e.g. by reading Start of Darkness you get much insight in the dynamics of Team Evil, but if it is needed, it will show up in the main comic (a great part got revealed through Tsukiko). He said that's the reason that a Order of the Scribbel-preview is highly unlikely, because it would probably be to much needed for the main comic anyway). Nevertheless it is some great content (and there is some nice author-commentary to find in these books, too. That is in my opinion the main benefit of the compilation books, beside the format itself (if you prefer book over digital)).

As for getting them to you: I don't now your situation, but have you asked your FLGS? (I don't know if normal bookshops are worth a try, but asking doesn't cost.) That should cut down the most of shipping/import fees, and was one motivation of the Kickstarter. (But doesn't work for Snips, Snails, Dragon Tales, that's and Ookoodook exclusive, and as the Giant stated that it will not be reprinted, I would try to grab it sooner than later (if you think you are interested in it))

[Coat]

I would like to support the Giant and this comic. But not to the tune of $100 for international shipping (I live in the UK)*.

I'm not sure how much (if any) of the money goes to the Giant if I buy locally - probably none, except that the books were obviously bought from OokDook originally.

So I would personally welcome a way to donate a small amount of money towards making the Giant's life better, without having to pay an ocean-based surcharge.

Or, for example, I could put the money towards a Kickstarter to set up European distribution of the comics and merchandise. I'm just sayin'.

* If there's a licensed European reseller already, that I've somehow not managed to find, please point me there instead. This offer comes with one free license to call me a fool [not refundable].

[ChristianSt]

I would like to support the Giant and this comic. But not to the tune of $100 for international shipping (I live in the UK)*.

I'm not sure how much (if any) of the money goes to the Giant if I buy locally - probably none, except that the books were obviously bought from OokDook originally.

So I would personally welcome a way to donate a small amount of money towards making the Giant's life better, without having to pay an ocean-based surcharge.

Or, for example, I could put the money towards a Kickstarter to set up European distribution of the comics and merchandise. I'm just sayin'.

* If there's a licensed European reseller already, that I've somehow not managed to find, please point me there instead. This offer comes with one free license to call me a fool [not refundable].

I have zero knowledge how book-selling works in the background, but I think it is sure to assume that even if you buy them locally, the Giant will get a share. (even on the "Shop"-Link on this page it reads: "Giant in the Playground has published seven print compilations of The Order of the Stick, available through your local comic or game shop or by ordering from Ookoodook.com." So for me this reads that the Giant hasn't any problems if you buy them locally)

And I know there are available in the EU, I see them in my FLGS in Germany* (I think I bought some of my books there, and I bought the board game there.) [* As I don't know anything about what is done in the background to get them, it could be possible that it is something harder than getting other stuff, but I think it can't be too hard]

[The Giant]

Oh, I was expecting that, since the Giant never explicitly said that you should only contact him if you actually did participate, people who didn't donate anything will start demanding their free magnet:smalltongue:

Impossible. If they contact me through Kickstarter, I can see how much they donated when I look at their email.


That raises a quick question: Is there any way to get the other ones I'm missing (or a full set) for those who came late to that round?
I'm under the impression you cannot order them from the website, no?

No, there are no leftovers that I am aware of.


@Giant In hindsight regarding the Kickstarter, would you have done things differently(aside from avoiding glass objects like the plague of course)? Less signed items, less bonus material promised, less ridiculously expensive rewards to mass produce, etc?

There are lots of things I would have done differently. More than I am willing to take the time to write about right now. But the fact that the drive "only" broke even is not one of them. It's the way I designed it.


The Wayback Machine says you used to have a donation button in 2004-2005. (snip) What changed your opinion in this regard? Unless I got my facts wrong and it wasn't a "straight" donation button.

What changed my mind is that was eight years ago and I was broke and needed the money. I'm not broke anymore. And even then, I offered wallpapers in return for the donations.


I would like to support the Giant and this comic. But not to the tune of $100 for international shipping (I live in the UK)*.

I'm not sure how much (if any) of the money goes to the Giant if I buy locally - probably none, except that the books were obviously bought from OokDook originally.

I definitely get paid for books that are sold through bookstores. Actually, I've already been paid for a book sitting on the shelf, but if you buy it, they are likely to buy another copy to replace it. So if you see the book in a store, feel free to buy it.

[Sunken Valley]

What changed my mind is that was eight years ago and I was broke and needed the money. I'm not broke anymore. And even then, I offered wallpapers in return for the donations.


So I did get my facts wrong.

Thank you! I really like it when you take the time to come here and answer all the questions (even though it is an unfortunate side effect of the time you can draw the comic before getting cramps being permanently halved).

[Copperdragon]

No, there are no leftovers that I am aware of.

That you do not mention it means there's no plan to do a second batch? (Maybe with the slight variation of light grey text in one corner "v.2" to indicate this is the Late-Commers Edition or whatever)

Roy and Elan feel so horribly alone on my fridge and I fear that if one day Xykon shows up, they'll really be desperate. :smalltongue:

(And the MitD would be cool, given that the background is already black.)

And: Thank you for taking your time to answer all kinds of silly questions in the last days! :smallsmile:

[Coat]

I definitely get paid for books that are sold through bookstores. Actually, I've already been paid for a book sitting on the shelf, but if you buy it, they are likely to buy another copy to replace it. So if you see the book in a store, feel free to buy it.

Small children and living outside a major city makes browsing through book stores on the off-chance that they might have OotS pretty much a no-go. So it's pretty much online orders only for me, and obviously the situation with stuff on Ebay or wherever is a bit less clear. Hence Euro version of OoKooDook would be ideal - but recommendations for alternatives welcome.

Nothing available online through Forbidden Planet - at least nothing I could find.

[The Giant]

I'm not going to be opening an overseas distribution center. I wouldn't even know how to start doing such a thing and I'm not sure there's enough demand to warrant it anyway. The books are already distributed to bookstores (and online stores) in Europe, that's as good as it is going to get, I'm afraid.

[Copperdragon]

So it's pretty much online orders only for me, and obviously the situation with stuff on Ebay or wherever is a bit less clear. Hence Euro version of OoKooDook would be ideal - but recommendations for alternatives welcome.

Amazon.de has some of them:
http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C 3%91&url=search-alias%3Denglish-books&field-keywords=order%20of%20the%20stick&sprefix=order+o%2Cenglish-books&rh=i%3Aenglish-books%2Ck%3Aorder%20of%20the%20stick

It's all amazon marketplace, but they should ship to most of the EU.

amazon.co.uk is also listing OotS:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/275-9265365-9469953?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=order%20of%20the%20stick&sprefix=order+of+the+s%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aorder%20of%20the%20stick

Apart from that, shipping from the US is not *that* much. If you can burn the money on a full set of the books, you should also have some 20$ more for the shipping. All you need is a Visa card (as you get from any and every european bank).
Just imagine the $s listed prices for the books as € and you basically get the shipping for free. The world is just as you imagine it to be. :smalltongue:

[eras10]

Rich has said several times though that he doesn't like the idea of donations, as he feels it will put him in a spot where the donators can justly demand things in the future.*


I prefer not to use a straight Donation button. The simple fact is that if people are able to give money without getting a product in return, some of them will come to believe that they "paid" for the free comic and are entitled to complain when I don't hit their preferred schedule (or content).


No, I think then even more people would complain, since they'd insist that since they didn't get anything which wasn't free out of the books, they would somehow magically be entitled to demand more stuff.

So, this is an entirely curiosity question, but... I've been thinking anti- refund myself, and i remember reading this explanation for Rich's dispreference. And there's absolutely nothing inherently bad about it. But I can't help wondering...

Well, first, are we sure that there's (or would be) actually a larger number of people complaining, or is it really a more or less constant fraction, but just complaining about different things? I wonder.

But leaving that aside since I have no empirical data - personally, it doesn't sound like a bad tradeoff to me... in exchange for, say, a doubling of the five percent of the people who complain (temporarily?), out of the one percent of the people who directly communicate with Rich in the first place.. and in exchange, an extra 100 grand... in business terms, it's a win.

Isn't there a happy ending here where a few misguided people complain, the hero merrily jingles the coins in his wallet as his only reply and heads into the sunset (of another day of toil at the vector mines, but never mind)? I mean, these people who now feel entitled to whatever, hey, the forum has a :smalltongue: button. Dashing inappropriate expectations is fun! I could totally be one of those people in a different time and place. Time for a dashing!

..well, I have a lot of respect for people who aren't overly interested in their financial reward. But... I have a feeling that popular artists just get people who want everything, all the time. I can imagine a lower level of stress being worth more than a higher level of money.... still, I have to wonder if the right arrangement of headspace would allow the peace of mind and the pot of gold.

I suppose this is as good a time as any to re-congradulate the Giant on all the rewards he's already fulfilled. Yay!

[Copperdragon]

This is not a suggestion or something, I just think loud (well, silent, but... metaphorically loud by writing it here).

What if the Donation button was connected to some disclaimer (in bold, just above the donate-button):

If you want to Donate money for The Order of the Stick feel free to do so. But please understand that nothing will change if you do. This includes but is not limited to:

You are not entitled to anything that is not available for free.
You will not be treated special on the forum or anywhere else.
You will not speed up the updates of the comic.
You will not enable new merchandise.
You will not buy a special right to make Rich answer you.
You will not increase the quality of the comic or anything else.
The website is not going to be faster, nicer, have increased updates, ...
Anything else you might think of what you could get by donating here.


You only donate because you want to show the author you appreciate his work and give him some money - and the only thing in return is your own satisfaction you gave someone money who creates a piece of art and entertainment that you like (else it would be a bit silly to donate).

If you understand, agree to this (spelled out: you will not get anything in return!) and still want to donate, then [link] Donate!

Please do not donate if you don't agree to the above. Even as a fully free user, Rich will just like you the same.

Should anyone ever complain, just link them to that text and ask "Well, those were the rules and you agreed. What do you want?"

Throw some picture of an OotS-character stating something as "Really, only donate if you get this is a total waste of your money!" (probably Belkar, Vaarsuvius or Xykon) next to it and you're set.

I am sure an even better disclaimer text is possible, this is just some random hack I wrote up. It can probably be made even better if you have to click on "agree" like you do with EULAs.

Again, this is no advice or tipp for Rich "how to make his business awesome with my awesome idea you just have been waiting for all these years!!1", but I'm seriously not getting how that would not solve basically all worries (people can donate as they wish, Rich is not pestered with the questions "How can I donate" that pop up regularly, and no one had the right or cause to complain - and if they do after they got a link to that text on the Donate-page, well, you know then you deal with someone who is to be ignored).

[The Giant]

Donations aren't happening. I've made my decision on this a long time ago and nothing has changed. I appreciate the sentiment, but it's not open for negotiation.

Thanks for the offer, but I prefer to sell products. If that means that some people who don't want those products don't end up sending me any of their money, I'm OK with that. I don't need everyone's money all the time.

So, since I don't think there's anything else to say about this topic...

Thread locked.