OOTS #887 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Tebryn]

The end. But not really. Like the panel design, to bad Thog is gone or he could mention it.

[thereaper]

If you look carefully, you can see the MitD and what appears to be O'Chul together.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not sure whose happy ending that was, but clearly not Belkar's...

[SadisticFishing]

Uh oh. Did Elan just get his happy ending?

[Seer_of_Heart]

Not sure whose happy ending that was, but clearly not Belkar's...

Looks like elan's :smallbiggrin:

edit: Swordsages everywhere

[Rendel Nep]

Wait.... has it been mentioned that this is all rose tinted?

[Conor77]

That's so sweet! But... it keeps spiralling into the distance, which means its receding (well, thats my assumption, grains of salt at the ready). Does the illusion cause nightmares later, I wonder? Or maybe someone needs to shake them out of it or they need to make a new save. Heh, or maybe by the time they come to, ACTUAL Xykon has arrived.

[wzeller]

This is the most clueless I've ever felt from an OOTS update.

Huh?

I just don't get it.

[Eurus]

Oh dear. I wonder how long they've been standing there enchanted, then.

[Daubechies4]

Oh, nooooo! What does that mean?? I'm scared! :smalleek:

[afbourque]

Only with Order of the Stick can you be left with a feeling of dread after getting the happy ending.

[SaintRidley]

Of course, this so beautifully occurs entirely within a single swirly eye.

Masterful.

[Knight.Anon]

Poor Durkon - The Irony. If I were Belkar I I'd quit the party after this.

[Dynneroth]

I wish I could tell what is closer to the center of the spiral past Elan riding a dinosaur. And whose happy ending is this with Belkar dead and buried? I'm really excited about what's coming up, but disappointed that this strip didn't advance the story a little more.

Hopefully V will come in the next strip and start setting things right.

[137beth]

So, it looks like different panels correspond to different character's fantasies. Can we guess which one is which?

[JessmanCA]

:) This made me happy. Even if it's fake. Sweet dreams for the characters we've come to know and love over the years. And it continues the veil over the reader's eyes which makes us even more interested and speculative. All that plus the brilliant strip design.. Thanks Rich!

[SaintRidley]

I wish I could tell what is closer to the center of the spiral past Elan riding a dinosaur. And whose happy ending is this with Belkar dead and buried? I'm really excited about what's coming up, but disappointed that this strip didn't advance the story a little more.

Hopefully V will come in the next strip and start setting things right.

In order - reunion with Hinjo and Lien, O-Chul reuniting with MitD, Elan with what appears to be a large lollipop, and after that too small to discern.

[Jordan Cat]

I wonder if this counts as Elans "Happy Ending"?

I found it amusing that Tsukiko was still there in this.

[Alysar]

Interesting that they are fighting Tsukiko, since they don't realize that she's dead.

[thereaper]

:thog: Thog love nontraditional panel layout!

[B. Dandelion]

Oh, that's gorgeous. Took me a while to get the hang of that layout, but I love it.

So... is that Roy's version of a happy ending? It seems like one consistent storyline that runs through everyone's happy ending except Belkar's -- like Elan patching things up with Nale seems more like an Elan thing to imagine than something I'd expect from Roy. From the previous comic I had thought it was his version alone. But if they're all sharing a vision, Belkar's dreaming of himself dead too.

[tom712]

This is the most thrilling part so far, I'm looking forward to the next strip.

I wonder what is happening to the order right now in real.

[Porthos]

Oh dear. I wonder how long they've been standing there enchanted, then.

This. I get the feeling a decent amount of time is passing. :smalleek:

[137beth]

Interesting that they are fighting Tsukiko, since they don't realize that she's dead.

I think that panel is Haley's imagination, since she in particular is the one with the grudge against Tsukiko, and she liked Thahn (and doesn't know he is dead.)

[thereaper]

In order - reunion with Hinjo and Lien, O-Chul reuniting with MitD, Elan with what appears to be a large lollipop, and after that too small to discern.

The one after that has what appears to be Roy, V, and what could be Elan (red and purple mass, blue and brown mass, blond and blue mass).

Also, it almost looks to me like MitD is shaking hands with O'Chul...


I wonder if this counts as Elans "Happy Ending"?

Strictly speaking, Elan's story has to end happily. Unless he dies and doesn't get resurrected here, it won't count.

[treyh37]

definitely seems like that is a shared vision cause several of those people Roy would have no idea what they look like (only that they exist at best).

if this is shared Belkar being dead in it means he is likely the one to break them out of it, as the odd man out in illusions usually is the one to point out what's wrong with it.

also some very awesome panels there, with a female puppet with banjo, mitd and o-chul.

not sure why in the vision Roy would throw away the phylactery before destroying it pretty sure Xykon could regen in that state.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Even though I can't escape the feeling of absolute terror, that has been one of my favorite updates in a while.
The Order's screwed, but… gah. I'd imagine that was fun to draw.

[Porthos]

Poor Durkon - The Irony. If I were Belkar I I'd quit the party after this.

Well Belkar did get a spiffy burial monument out of this.

[Forealms]

I like how, in Roy's happy ending, Julia is annoyed with him and Roy gets a statue of himself. I wonder if that's Roy's "realistic" idea on how things would turn out, his ideal circumstances, or a little of both.

[ZMiles]

Interesting... saw panels there relating to happy endings from Roy's perspective (beating Xykon, statue), Haley's (vault of gold, her dad), and Elan (big happy family), but nothing from Belkar's perspective. Could mean he died (maybe this illusion spell does a tiny bit of damage every round, and it pushed Belkar over the edge?), or it could mean he's immune for some reason. Hmm.

And yep, given the comic's title, I gotta wonder if this is the happy ending the oracle kobold predicted for Elan.

Awesome strip! Especially loved the layout. The little details -- like all the characters in the 'saving Azure city' panel that we know are dead but the protagonists don't (Thanh, eyepatch resistance leader, matron resistance leader, Tsukiko) -- also worked really well.

[Nephrahim]

Interesting that they are fighting Tsukiko, since they don't realize that she's dead.

Also they're fighting WITH The resistance which they don't know it also dead.

As for who's fantasy it is, it SEEMS to be all of theirs... except Belkar's obviously. I wonder why? Or does he wish he WAS dead? That would be really dark, but I don't see why he isn't included otherwise.

[thereaper]

definitely seems like that is a shared vision cause several of those people Roy would have no idea what they look like (only that they exist at best).

if this is shared Belkar being dead in it means he is likely the one to break them out of it, as the odd man out in illusions usually is the one to point out what's wrong with it.

also some very awesome panels there, with a female puppet with banjo, mitd and o-chul.

not sure why in the vision Roy would throw away the phylactery before destroying it pretty sure Xykon could regen in that state.

He dropped it in a volcano (which would presumably destroy it).

Also, it's a giant LotR reference.

[CloakedDancer]

So is this the end of the comic?

I'm still wondering the same things I did at the end of the last strip.

Disconcerting.

[Jim Thunderbard]

not sure why in the vision Roy would throw away the phylactery before destroying it pretty sure Xykon could regen in that state.

He's tossing it in a volcano.

Ninja'd.

[Peanut Gallery]

Elan's family reunion fantasy makes me sad. Because it's super sweet and I hope he gets it but it's a fool's hope and I know it.

[shamgar001]

The layout is brilliant.

[Porthos]

This is the most clueless I've ever felt from an OOTS update.

Huh?

I just don't get it.

It's a continutation of the illusion/dreamscape from last strip. Roy/rest of the party is hallucinating what they are doing now that they've 'killed' Xykon and 'ended' their quest.

All in the shape of a purple swirly eye. :smallamused:

[Lurker-in-Forum]

Here's a cheerful thought:

The illusion seems to be playing out the fantasies of the combined group. We see things that clearly correspond to Roy's, Elan's, and Haley's "happy ending." They even show Durkon coming back... so, in this fantasy, it would be entirely consistent for Belkar to be resurrected. He's not.

What if part of that is Belkar's fantasy? Maybe he's actually feeling guilty for Durkon's death, to the extent that he wishes he were dead himself?

[Jordan Cat]

Also, it's a giant LotR reference.

I feel ashamed for not catching that.

[David Argall]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

[Alysar]

not sure why in the vision Roy would throw away the phylactery before destroying it pretty sure Xykon could regen in that state.

It looks like it might be lava that they are dropping it into.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Elan's family reunion fantasy makes me sad. Because it's super sweet and I hope he gets it but it's a fool's hope and I know it.
Yes, definitely. I think it's telling how Tarquin is smiling, but Nale is scowling.

The layout is brilliant.
Agreed. One of the best-looking strips in my opinion.

[Sylthia]

So Belker dies in Elan's happy ending? I wonder if we'll get to see Haley and Belker's illusions as well.

[fan4battle]

I also think it's a collective happy ending, seeing as they are all getting their respective wishes. Except Belkar, he didn't get a kickass death. He didn't get get to say even one line in the whole illusion. The Order doesn't want him in their fantastic future, so he's killed off, and only Elan isn't apatethic about it. Roy's posture in the tombstone panel says "why bother let's go". So, we'll see what role will Belkar have in the disruption of this illusion. :)

[DaggerPen]

Well.

That's oddly terrifying.

[TaiLiu]

This is one of the most bittersweet comics I have ever read. :smallfrown:

[Zeitgeist]

Looks to me like it's Elan's simply by the style. The first thing that came to my head was a roll of film, and since Elan is all about theatrics and a happy ending is something like you'd imagine in a story (or a movie) then it really fits. I'm going to assume that was intentional and not just me reading into the design too much.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Here's a cheerful thought:

The illusion seems to be playing out the fantasies of the combined group. We see things that clearly correspond to Roy's, Elan's, and Haley's "happy ending." They even show Durkon coming back... so, in this fantasy, it would be entirely consistent for Belkar to be resurrected. He's not.

What if part of that is Belkar's fantasy? Maybe he's actually feeling guilty for Durkon's death, to the extent that he wishes he were dead himself?
Ack! I hadn't thought of that, but that's actually pretty brilliant. It even makes me feel sorry for the heartless little psychopath.

On my first read, I didn't notice that the walls and floors were curved to match the spiral. Clever.

[Alysar]

So Belker dies in Elan's happy ending? I wonder if we'll get to see Haley and Belker's illusions as well.

I think this illusion is jointly formed by all of their minds. There are people there that Roy has never seen (or at least doesn't remember). Tsukiko is there since none of them are aware that she is dead.

[SaintRidley]

Also they're fighting WITH The resistance which they don't know it also dead.

As for who's fantasy it is, it SEEMS to be all of theirs... except Belkar's obviously. I wonder why? Or does he wish he WAS dead? That would be really dark, but I don't see why he isn't included otherwise.

It might make sense. He probably feels that he was supposed to die there, not Durkon. And moreso, if he's trapped by the illusion past the point in the illusion where he's dead (and he is), then he's just sharing in the illusion as illusory post-mortem Belkar. He doesn't necessarily get to contribute to the illusion anymore, but he's still locked in, thinking he's dead.

[Alysar]

I wonder if Belkar doesn't secretly realize that there isn't really a place for him in a civilized world, so he dreams himself sent off to an afterlife custom built for his alignment.

[treyh37]

He dropped it in a volcano (which would presumably destroy it).

Also, it's a giant LotR reference.

looked like desert to me but since several people think its lava I'll go with that since it makes more sense

[PeglegJim]

Hey you know what would be a great next panel?

The End

Like a non-standard game over or something

[DaggerPen]

Of course, this so beautifully occurs entirely within a single swirly eye.

Masterful.

Oh my god, I didn't even catch that. That's amazing.

[MeanMrsMustard]

If this illusion is shared by the party, I wonder why we don't get to see any snippets of Belkar frolicking around in the Lower Planes. I'm not sure what they're like in DnD, but Belkar would probably treat the afterlife as an extended murderfest, as opposed to his life, which is a shortened murderfest.

[Living Oxymoron]

Roy doesn't care about Belkar's death, that's sad. I think it will change before he actually dies.

About the whole fantasy, I think we will see some fastfoward. And I wish I was so optimistic about them as they are.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Now I really can't wait for the books! Some of the details from the on-line version are a little hard to make out. Print will show some of the details from the center better.

Like what the MitD really is! :smallbiggrin:

[fan4battle]

The content sure leads to thinking the illusion is shared, though technically I suppose it could still be only Roy's illusion, as there's nothing in there that he doesn't know (or haven't been told - Haley's told him about the Resistance, and Bozzok) or wouldn't be expecting of the group - he certainly would expect Haley to hoard a treasure and Elan to want to make piece with his brother. Also he knows Elan's fondness of dinosaurs and kid candy.

[Living Oxymoron]

Here's a cheerful thought:

The illusion seems to be playing out the fantasies of the combined group. We see things that clearly correspond to Roy's, Elan's, and Haley's "happy ending." They even show Durkon coming back... so, in this fantasy, it would be entirely consistent for Belkar to be resurrected. He's not.

What if part of that is Belkar's fantasy? Maybe he's actually feeling guilty for Durkon's death, to the extent that he wishes he were dead himself?

Very interesting thought.

[Alysar]

Now I really can't wait for the books! Some of the details from the on-line version are a little hard to make out. Print will show some of the details from the center better.

Like what the MitD really is! :smallbiggrin:

I don't think it shows that. From what I can see, he's still entirely concealed in the umbrella shadow.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Maybe it's because I'm drowsy (late at night is the best time to come up with theories!), but I noticed something as I was looking over 885-886-887:
Right before the party sees Xykon, Roy says "no complaining."
And now they have nothing to complain about.

Yeah, that sounded better in my head.

[Tre of the Wood]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

Who cares? It wasn't funny nor did it advance the plot, but it was completely awesome. One of my favorites.

[Francis Davey]

I think some of the panels can only be in one person's personal vision. For example #4 has Tarquin looking lovingly on. I am sure Elan believes that everything can end happily (like that) with Tarquin coming round to the good side. I doubt anyone else does. Similarly #13 (love for Banjo) surely must only exist in Elan's head.

So you might tentatively assign #5, #8 and #12 to Haley (beating two of her demons and gold).

#6 and #9 must be Roy (and possibly #14 - reunion with Durkon?).

Possibly #2 (his death was not in vain) and #7 (people he actually liked or had fun with mourned his death) could even be Belkar's.

The others are more difficult and it may be impossible to assign them like that (and I could be wrong).

[Illven]

Meh, I didn't like this strip. The end of the last one confirms it's just an illusion, so it feels kinda pointless.

[prism6691]

Maybe it's because I'm drowsy (late at night is the best time to come up with theories!), but I noticed something as I was looking over 885-886-887:
Right before the party sees Xykon, Roy says "no complaining."
And now they have nothing to complain about.

Yeah, that sounded better in my head.

That.....actually is plausible. Illusion took hold of the last thought that was in the persons mind. Reminds me of that star trek next gen episode remember me where the last though before entering a world where you were in control happened (which was everybody that dr. crusher knew disappearing). Perhaps that's exactly how the runes work.

[fan4battle]

I think some of the panels can only be in one person's personal vision...I can see it that way too. But I wonder why wouldn't Roy be present for the liberation of Azure city when everyone else of the Order is?

[WindStruck]

Holy crap! This reminds me of Inception! So maybe time flows differently in their dream/illusion than in reality... but I wonder, what will happen when or if they snap out of it?

Also, if it is really a shared sort of dream... and you die in your dream but can't wake up out of it, would you die? Maybe that happened to Belkar. Maybe when he died in the dream, he forgot to keep breathing in reality. Then, as we see... there's never really any good ending in there for Belkar. Yes, it could be guilt like he wished it was dead and like this. Or maybe it could also be he can no longer contribute for one reason or the other.

[Raphite1]

This is simply the best webcomic of all time.

It's one of the best fantasy stories of all time.

[Porthos]

What if part of that is Belkar's fantasy? Maybe he's actually feeling guilty for Durkon's death, to the extent that he wishes he were dead himself?

Remember he thinks he should be dead, so it fits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html).

[Rack]

Also they're fighting WITH The resistance which they don't know it also dead.

As for who's fantasy it is, it SEEMS to be all of theirs... except Belkar's obviously. I wonder why? Or does he wish he WAS dead? That would be really dark, but I don't see why he isn't included otherwise.

Probably because it would confuse the narrative, we've already seen Belkar is definitely affected but if Belkar was dead in some scenes, alive in others it would lead to a lot of people asking what was going on.

The first thing I thought is this felt like a filler strip, surely one double length comic is enough to explain they've been held by this trap. When it occurred this could be Elan's happy ending I started to worry about exactly what could give this strip enough significance to be included in the main arc?

Can't be good.

[Bulldog Psion]

Let's see, I wonder if it's possible to pick out which character is having which fantasy. The weird thing is, it looks like Belkar's isn't being shown.

First: Roy. He's smugly triumphant here.
Second: Roy. Durkon is back and Belkar is dead.
Third: Roy. Again, he's the main participant.
Fourth: Elan. One big semi-happy family.
Fifth: Haley. Tsukiko going down, Resistance winning, Thanh.
Sixth: Roy. Reconciled with dad.
Seventh: Roy. Rejoicing over Belkar's demise.
Eighth: Haley. Ian is approving, Bozzok is defeated.
Ninth: Roy. Giant statue of him (man, he really does crave fame and recognition, doesn't he??), Julia ticked off.
Tenth: Uncertain.
Eleventh: Elan. The hopeless romantic.
Twelfth: Haley. Gold, gold, gold!!!!
Thirteenth: Elan. Who else with puppets?
Fourteenth: Roy. Durkon's alive and they're partying.
Fifteenth: Elan. Woooooo! I'm riding a dinosaur!!!
Sixteenth: Haley? Involves Azure City or Sapphire Guard in some way.
Seventeenth: Who the heck???? MitD and O-Chul? What's going on here???
Eighteenth: Elan. Elan with a lollipop.
Nineteenth on: Indistinguishable. I think V is in #19, but beyond that it's too small to see. The others are probably just blank.

Who is imagining the MitD hanging around with O-Chul???? :smalleek:

[B. Dandelion]

I wonder how the fantasy explains Durkon not being a vampire. I guess Belkar was lying just as Roy had suspected?

[Karoug]

It seems to me that this is only Elan's happy ending version (maybe the spell picks up the dream from where Roy's ended?)

There are numerous clues in there to nail that down:


the amulet/phylactery has generic 'evil eyes' on it.
they throw it in a volcano (bardic LotR reference)
Roy and Haley's happy endings through Elan's eyes match a pattern almost identically: they make peace with their fathers, defeat all the side-quest villains and gain wealth (Haley) and Glory (Roy)- the archetypical DnD heroes' motivations.
On the other hand, V is, in almost every panel, a supporting character. Maybe Elan does not know him so good as to be able to define a 'true happy ending' for him, or maybe they don't share such a close bond as with the others.


Also, there is plenty of Elan-specific dream-stuff in there: Banjo finds himself a girlfriend, the airship Elan used to rescue Haley, and mayyyybe, near the center of the spiral, we get a glimpse of Elanasaurus Rex.


EDIT:
Also in the previous strip Elan vomited a little, maybe because he got dizzy by the swirling?

[Aldrakan]

Several of them seem to be a specific person's fantasy - Elan's are probably the most recognizable because of the super quick and easy resolutions. Roy's start off dealing with Xykon, and Haley's seem to be mostly about revenging herself on her enemies. There are some that are less identifiable, given the assumption that the panels correspond to a specific person's personal illusion or their input into the collective illusion, unclear precisely how it's working.

The one in which Roy is smiling an waving at his now winged father I'm not sure about. Roy's opinion of him is so low I wouldn't expect him to come up with that even in a fantasy. It seems more like Elan's thing, but I don't know how much Elan even knows about Roy's parental issues.

[Porthos]

I wonder how the fantasy explains Durkon not being a vampire. I guess Belkar was lying just as Roy had suspected?

Or Malack had a change of heart and 'fixed' him (via Resurrection?). After all, part of the shared dream is Tarquin being buddy buddy again with Elan.

The more I think about it, the more Belkar going along with being dead because of feeling he should be dead makes sense.

[Francis Davey]

I can see it that way too. But I wonder why wouldn't Roy be present for the liberation of Azure city when everyone else of the Order is?

No, there are difficulties with my theory. One thought I had was this was all Elan's imagination - he is the one who will get the "happy ending" according to the Oracle. However #9 seems it has to come purely from Roy's mind. Only he (it seems to me) would want his sister to see a huge statue of him and be upset by it (she's frowning in the picture). I can't see Elan conceiving of that sort of animus.

And of course #13 must be from Elan's mind. No-one else could think "but what happens to Banjo".

But maybe others are right and this is somehow a shared illusion, experienced by everyone, but with elements contributed by each of the characters. I can't recall a D&D spell that would do it (but maybe there is). Not that that matters. Any reasonably high level illusionist will have almost certainly researched a whole bunch of interesting spells of their own. We know that V and D both do this.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Oh dear. I wonder how long they've been standing there enchanted, then.

Totally.

And it kind of seems like they're all in the same fantasy world.

[Codyage]

So...terrified.

If this is Elan's happy ending...he could die now, and the prophecy would be fulfilled.

:elan: "Will this story have a happy ending?"

"Yes for you at least."

Elan would die happy, filling out all of his dreams, and doing everything he wanted. Not to mention this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html) strip would be so much sadder if somehow he couldn't make it out of the illusion.

:roy: Elan you can't just stand around waiting for that prophecy. You have to out and make it happen.

[SaintRidley]

The more I think about it, the more Belkar going along with being dead because of feeling he should be dead makes sense.

Indeed.

Even more than that, though, I think this is probably the best non-traditional panel layout Rich has conceived of yet.

[Porthos]

Meh, I didn't like this strip. The end of the last one confirms it's just an illusion, so it feels kinda pointless.

It's not pointless at all. From a character persepctive at least. It is showing what some of the deepest most dreams of the characters are.

And in in a The Dog That Didn't Bark (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbsenceOfEvidence) sort of way, it the complete lack of anything Belkar related (outside of a spiffy monument) also says volumes.

If the characters remember this shared dream at all, it might lead to ramifications down the road as well.

[Coldwind]

Well, it seems this is the Elan's happy ending AND Belkar's death both.

Everyone wants to see Belkar dead, and he does not care what other people say about him. That's why he appears dead in illusion. In reality, I think he will not be dead after all, at least till the end of the story.

And maybe they will all be teleporting to the nearest city after illusion ends.

[Francis Davey]

Third: Roy. Again, he's the main participant..
..
Seventh: Roy. Rejoicing over Belkar's demise.


I'm afraid I see it in Roy's character to feel remorseful after Belkar's death (rightly or wrongly). At least to have doubts such as "was he really changing there towards the end?". I can't see him imagining himself just blowing off the funeral. Especially if Belkar died saving Durkon. Now I can see Belkar imagining it that way.

For #3 I also rather liked the "lava"=bardic idea. Elan is also unreasonably pleased with himself in that panel. But I didn't think it was certain enough to offer.

[jsuarezcasana]

I'm guessing that this doesn't include Belkar's vision, so, my gut feeling is (clockwise):

All (or just Haley due to be holding the goblin)
Elan maybe not serious about durkon's demise)
Roy (becase is in the one that has to destroy Xykon)
Elan (obvious)
Haley (she is charging)
Roy (obvious)
Elan (the only one that has some sympathytowards belkar)
Haley (Thief's guild)
Roy (obvious)
All (or just Elan is he is being naive enough to think the casters can handle the gates, also, durkon still alive)
All (or just roy?)
Haley (duh)
Elan (duh)
Roy
Elan
Haley (again with the paladins)
Elan (or Haley)
Elan
.....

[B. Dandelion]

Guys, you can stop freaking out about this being Elan's prophecy. War and XPs commentary says his prophecy is a word from the Giant to the readers that when the entire story is over Elan will have a happy ending, and that while things might get scary for a while they will work out in the end.

[LuPuWei]

Awesome! Call-backs, fulfilments, Roy sharing a drink with Durkon (sigh), even if its fake, quite nice...

And to me, this looks like a combined dream right now (or possibly just Elan's...)

[Felhammer]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

Who cares?

Maybe this book is running long? Perhaps this book will be the end of the entire OOTS story, so the book will be extra long to accommodate it? Maybe this is the end of the book? Perhaps Rich was just flexing his artistic muscle a little? Maybe he just wanted to do something fun? :smallsmile:

Not everything has to advance the plot, even if the book is running long. :smallsmile:

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm afraid I see it in Roy's character to feel remorseful after Belkar's death (rightly or wrongly). At least to have doubts such as "was he really changing there towards the end?". I can't see him imagining himself just blowing off the funeral. Especially if Belkar died saving Durkon. Now I can see Belkar imagining it that way.


It seems unlikely that Belkar would imagine Mr. Scruffy being dead, though. And I really, really think that Roy would be elated at Belkar's death, and not feel the slightest bit remorseful. Especially since his fantasy includes Belkar being proved a liar by Durkon showing up alive.

[jere7my]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

There are things that don't advance the plot that are not padding. And I'd rather see the comic driven by the needs of the story instead of the constraints of publishing format.

Two things I haven't seen pointed out:

1) The upper right-hand corner appears to be outside the "swirly eye" effect. If the rest of the strip is indeed one big swirly eye, the tone makes it look like Roy's skin.

2) I think we see Roy's attitude toward Belkar in the graveside scene. While Haley, Elan, and Durkon mourn, Roy is walking away, making what looks like a flippant gesture.

[nonamearisto]

This looks like it was inspired by of "For the Man who has everything"; a Superman comic about a plant which feeds the victim a life-like illusion of the victim's greatest desires and feeds off the victim's lifeforce. Meanwhile, one of Superman's villains is attacking Batman, Wonder Woman, and Robin. Although the dream takes a dark turn, for a while, it is a dream come true, in which Krypton was never destroyed. The villain is beaten when the plant is tossed back on him, and we get to see what he wants: universal conquest.

They made that into a Justice League Unlimited episode.

Makes me wonder if we will see Xykon and Redcloak's versions of their happy endings too.

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_Man_Who_Has_Everything

[Jeremias]

I'd imagine that the spell created the speculated mass illusion, aka. everyone sees the same things. It appeases to all to keep them enthralled.
Belkars feels like he should be dead, and rest get resolution to their fantasies.
The reason Vaarsuvius and Durkon don't get any resolutions is because they aren't there.

I'd imagine that they break out of it because Mr. Scruffy freaks out due to either a. not being under the spell or b. Belkar being dead. Then he wakes Belkar by scratching, who weirds because dead don't feel pain, and Belkar wakes rest of the team. Then Roy gets angry at Belkar because he ruined his fantasies.

[Hbgplayer]

Ok, judging from both the title, and the fact that Elan is present in a majority of the panels, I'm guessing that this fantasy is Elan's. He want's everybody to be happy, but doesn't really like Belkar, so this is what makes the most sense to me.

I'm also very afraid about how long they've been standing there now-it looks like that would have had to take a long time in reality. :smalleek:

[Scowling Dragon]

Technically the question was "Will this story have a happy ending?"

The answer is yes. It did HAVE a happy ending. :smallamused:

[DaggerPen]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

Yay, extra long book!

Seriously, why would this strip be padding? Padding is for when you can't already make the book long enough on its own. Aside from being a really neat strip, visually, and from giving character insight, and from making it absolutely clear that this is an illusion (which some readers missed last strip), this strip implies significant passage of time, which is a rather important plot point in and of itself, and is also notably missing input from Belkar, implying that he may be in a position to break the illusion, or that something else may be happening with him. I am almost completely satisfied with this update, and would probably be completely satisfied if only we could see some of those center panels in a bit more detail. XD

[Porthos]

I'm also very afraid about how long they've been standing there now-it looks like that would have had to take a long time in reality. :smalleek:

While I am afraid of that, and have already said so, there's also the idea that what happens in the mind can happen in a blink of an eye in 'real time'. It could just be a few minutes passing right now.

Or hours.

Could go either way, really.

[Felhammer]

I think this comic was needed because some people were having trouble figuring out the last one was an illusion.

[Geordnet]

Also, it almost looks to me like MitD is shaking hands with O'Chul...
Hm, you're right!

O'Chul definitely seems to be holding something, and it could very well be :mitd:'s hand. Which would imply that he has a hand, and that it would be somewhat yellowish.

More fuel for the fires of speculation, I guess. :smallbiggrin:

[Francis Davey]

It seems unlikely that Belkar would imagine Mr. Scruffy being dead, though.

Yes. Point taken. Though maybe Belkar is imagining "they both go together" and will share in his afterlife. Perhaps.

Evil people get a poor deal on afterlives in D&D, unlike good people, so I'm not sure to what extent they would imagine death as a "happy ending" in any case, but we haven't seen much about the evil afterlife here in OOTS. It is something that varies a lot between D&D campaigns, so the Giant's own take on it could be almost anything.

The good afterlife is certainly interesting.

[ti'esar]

...That was actually rather unnerving.

Also sort of confusing - are different panels from different characters' illusions? If so, why do they all form a coherent narrative? And if not, why are there some elements (such as Elan's peaceful family reunion) that are obviously personal fantasies?

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm still puzzling over two things:

1. Who is imagining the MitD and O-Chul shaking hands? I didn't think any of the Order knew about that whole thing. Are we getting an outside party's fantasy here, too? Is the MitD caught in the spell nearby?

2. The title of the strip is "Happy Ending." Is this Elan's happy ending? #634's title, "The Wrong Reasons," also referred to the prophecy that was fulfilled in it. Since Elan's happy ending is probably impossible (i.e. reconciliation with Nale and Tarquin is clearly part of it, and will never really happen), did his prophecy get fulfilled with this strip?

[davidbofinger]

It seems unlikely that Belkar would imagine Mr. Scruffy being dead, though.

Belkar might want Mr. Scruffy to join him in the Chaotic Evil afterlife.

[nonamearisto]

The really insidious thing about these illusions is that they are not 100% happy; they have just enough sadness to make them believable, as life has a balance of both. Belkar's death clearly was not something which all the party wanted, and there is violence and conflict in the fantasies. Same thing with that superman comic: Jor-El was discredited because when Krypton survived in that dream, he was considered to be crying wolf and became embittered.

That said, one part seems to have come true: Tsukiko is dead. She's either dead or defeated in their fantasy.

[Anarion]

...That was actually rather unnerving.

Also sort of confusing - are different panels from different characters' illusions? If so, why do they all form a coherent narrative? And if not, why are there some elements (such as Elan's peaceful family reunion) that are obviously personal fantasies?

I think it's an overarching narrative that's being told. It's not any one person's perspective, but includes satisfactory resolutions to pretty much everyone's conflicts. Haley's Dad gets to take out the thieves guild with her help, Roy gets to lord it over Julia with the statue, Belkar gets a proper burial and on and on.

And it's masterful as an illusion. Absolutely masterful. My favorite part of this is how...unfulfilled I feel. It includes no growth, no real gain or maturation for the members of the order. Everything just works out for them, but it's too perfect, unrealistic even. Nothing is that nice and tidy and people are rarely happy when it is.

[Chess Tyrant]

Hey, check it out! It's the happy ending we're certainly not going to be getting! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: seriously, in another couple of years, we'll all look back on these pictures and cry.

[Porthos]

I think this comic was needed because some people were having trouble figuring out the last one was an illusion.

You.... Might not want to look at Twitter right now....

Specifically the responses to Rich's auto-update tweet. :smalleek: :smalleek:

[Cheesegear]

At first I thought it was Elan's. It's obvious right?

But then I realised that it shows a lot of Haley doing kick-butt things, and a lot of her getting the things she wants (killing Tsukiko, bathing in gold, Belkar is dead, etc.) and the more I looked at it, the more I want to say that this is Haley's dream, which happens to include Elan being happy because Haley loves him.

Or it could be a shared dream.

Or I'm thinking too hard, and it really is Elan's.

[SaintRidley]

Hm, you're right!

O'Chul definitely seems to be holding something, and it could very well be :mitd:'s hand. Which would imply that he has a hand, and that it would be somewhat yellowish.

More fuel for the fires of speculation, I guess. :smallbiggrin:

Given it's all an illusion, nothing actually useful for speculation though.


I'm still puzzling over two things:

1. Who is imagining the MitD and O-Chul shaking hands? I didn't think any of the Order knew about that whole thing. Are we getting an outside party's fantasy here, too? Is the MitD caught in the spell nearby?

2. The title of the strip is "Happy Ending." Is this Elan's happy ending? #634's title, "The Wrong Reasons," also referred to the prophecy that was fulfilled in it. Since Elan's happy ending is probably impossible (i.e. reconciliation with Nale and Tarquin is clearly part of it, and will never really happen), did his prophecy get fulfilled with this strip?

To #1 - I imagine O-Chul briefed the Order on the fact that the monster is "a good man." One or more of Roy, Haley, and Elan probably has that hanging out in the back of their head - I'm guessing Elan, since reunions of that sort seem to be his sort of thing.

To #2 - Considering nothing has actually happened in this strip, I don't think this will fulfill Elan's prophecy. It's referencing it, but definitely not fulfilling it.

[ti'esar]

You.... Might not want to look at Twitter right now....

Specifically the responses to Rich's auto-update tweet. :smalleek: :smalleek:

Please tell me you're not implying what I think you're implying.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Even more than that, though, I think this is probably the best non-traditional panel layout Rich has conceived of yet.

+1.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if O'Chul told Roy about MitD, given that the later could potentially be turned against Xykon ...

those damn ninjas

[SaintRidley]

You.... Might not want to look at Twitter right now....

Specifically the responses to Rich's auto-update tweet. :smalleek: :smalleek:

Man. So many people without a lick of reading comprehension.

[Gusion]

Made me think of Alice & Wonderland... down the rabbit hole...

[Porthos]

Please tell me you're not implying what I think you're implying.

Check for yourself. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/333820570129006594) Though the comments will soon decouple from the update due to there being too many of them.

The comparison to 8-bit theater just made me go :smallsigh:.

ETA::: As I suspected, the comments have indeed decoupled. Check here for a real time look at responses to "@RichBurlew". It should catch most of them. (https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%40RichBurlew&src=typd)

And if someone is reading this thread weeks/months in the future? Well, you'll just have to take my word for it. :smalltongue:

[thereaper]

I'm still puzzling over two things:

1. Who is imagining the MitD and O-Chul shaking hands? I didn't think any of the Order knew about that whole thing. Are we getting an outside party's fantasy here, too? Is the MitD caught in the spell nearby?

2. The title of the strip is "Happy Ending." Is this Elan's happy ending? #634's title, "The Wrong Reasons," also referred to the prophecy that was fulfilled in it. Since Elan's happy ending is probably impossible (i.e. reconciliation with Nale and Tarquin is clearly part of it, and will never really happen), did his prophecy get fulfilled with this strip?

Haley and Belkar knew that the MitD played tea party with O'Chul when he was paralyzed. They also know that he took O'Chul away, and didn't eat him.

They don't have to know about the two's friendship to imagine that scene (we interpret it as two friends reuniting because we know they are friends; Haley and Belkar may interpret it as the two finally getting to know each other for real).

Moreover, it's entirely possible (however unlikely) that O'Chul told them about the two of them.

[nonamearisto]

Check for yourself. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/333820570129006594) Though the comments will soon decouple from the update due to there being too many of them.

The comparison to 8-bit theater just made me go :smallsigh:.

... they honestly cannot tell that this is an illusion? :smalleek:

[Porthos]

Man. So many people without a lick of reading comprehension.

It's what I said before in the last main discussion thread; the power of the visual medium can be mighty fierce. I still remember the confusion over some of instances of Lost where they pulled a very blatant THIS IS NOT HAPPENING - ITS ALL A DREAM and people were still wondering if it had really happened. Mind, I know that Lost could be difficult to grok sometimes, but I'm talking about when it was super super blatant. :smalltongue:


... they honestly cannot tell that this is an illusion? :smalleek:

Well some of them are being sarcastic about it, IMO. But others... Well, I can't speak for them but I'm guessing that at least some of them are not sure as to what is really happening.

[DaggerPen]

You.... Might not want to look at Twitter right now....

Specifically the responses to Rich's auto-update tweet. :smalleek: :smalleek:

...

*goes to look*

... wow, some people really have no reading comprehension.

[SaintRidley]

... they honestly cannot tell that this is an illusion? :smalleek:

I too find myself amazed, shocked, dismayed, and concerned that any human being could exhibit such levels of reading comprehension. This isn't zero reading comprehension, but negative reading comprehension. Frankly, I didn't think it was possible until 886 and 887 for that to happen. But here we are.

[madock345]

Anybody else having "For the Man Who Has Everything" flashbacks?

I can't wait for the epic rage beatdown The Order is going to give out when they wake up.

[B. Dandelion]

2. The title of the strip is "Happy Ending." Is this Elan's happy ending? #634's title, "The Wrong Reasons," also referred to the prophecy that was fulfilled in it. Since Elan's happy ending is probably impossible (i.e. reconciliation with Nale and Tarquin is clearly part of it, and will never really happen), did his prophecy get fulfilled with this strip?

I don't think so. War and XPs says Elan's prophecy refers to the end of the entire story and it's a word from the Giant to the audience not to worry too much when things get scary because it will all work out in the end. A prophecy twist wouldn't fit with that.

[Tre of the Wood]

Man. Look at all the custom art that went into this piece. Many comics use mainly the basic character models. Nearly every panel here had to be drawn new, and it is done amazingly. Nice art, Rich. Very nice.

[thereaper]

... they honestly cannot tell that this is an illusion? :smalleek:

Well, technically, it appears to be an enchantment effect rather than an illusion. Otherwise they wouldn't have the swirly eyes.


At first I thought it was Elan's. It's obvious right?

But then I realised that it shows a lot of Haley doing kick-butt things, and a lot of her getting the things she wants (killing Tsukiko, bathing in gold, Belkar is dead, etc.) and the more I looked at it, the more I want to say that this is Haley's dream, which happens to include Elan being happy because Haley loves him.

Or it could be a shared dream.

Or I'm thinking too hard, and it really is Elan's.

What's this? A wild cheesegear outside of the 40k threads? I've never had LOS to one of those before!

[Red.Tide]

To everyone who is puzzled by the reunion of the MitD and O-Chul, keep this in mind:

1. Haley and Belkar have encountered MitD (thus they would be able to imagine him appearing as he does). Additionally, they realized themselves that he was childlike and not particularly evil.

2. If you were O-Chul, after reuniting with the OOTS having spent so long influencing and bonding with the MitD, wouldn't telling Roy/Haley, "Hey, the MitD isn't evil; he's just naive and manipulated by Xykon and Redcloak. Do not kill him; rather, appeal to his better nature" be pretty high on your to-do list?

[Porthos]

I don't think so. War and XPs says Elan's prophecy refers to the end of the entire story and it's a word from the Giant to the audience not to worry too much when things get scary because it will all work out in the end. A prophecy twist wouldn't fit with that.

OTOH, I think it is pretty obvious that Rich is alluding to the title. I've noted in the past that the title has a voice of its own. Almost a character in its own right as it sarcastically/sardonically refers to/comments on the events of the comic.

In this case it is referencing the Happy Ending prophecy without fulfilling it.

[Francis Davey]

Man. Look at all the custom art that went into this piece. Many comics use mainly the basic character models. Nearly every panel here had to be drawn new, and it is done amazingly. Nice art, Rich. Very nice.

+1

I can barely imagine the amount of work that must have gone into this. In theory this is just one panel (with panels inside) but it represents the work that must normally go into several comics. Each scene has lots of detail that is important (eg Julia's frown that I referred to, Roy waving off Belkar's funeral) as well as being visually very different from other scenes.

[ti'esar]

So, after examining the center of the spiral, I can make out two, maybe three more actual panels in there after the one with O-Chul and the MitD: Elan with a lollipop, a panel with Roy and V-colored blurs, and one more that I can't identify anything about but does seem to have something happening. The last 4-5 are probably blank.

I'm also interested to note that Roy does remember the significance of the phylactery after all (and find the LOTR reference hilarious :smallbiggrin:). I'd assumed after 886 that he just forgot about it.

[SaintRidley]

Well, technically, it appears to be an enchantment effect rather than an illusion. Otherwise they wouldn't have the swirly eyes.


More likely, given Girard's predilections, a [Mind-Affecting] Illusion, probably a phantasm. Like an enchantment, but fooling the senses very completely.

[Codyage]

I don't think so. War and XPs says Elan's prophecy refers to the end of the entire story and it's a word from the Giant to the audience not to worry too much when things get scary because it will all work out in the end. A prophecy twist wouldn't fit with that.

However, the oracle says in response to Elan's question. "Yes, for you at least."

Which means when the entire story is over, Elan will have a happy ending. That can be interpreted to here, with Elan being happy in an illusion, and dying during it. He would have died in happiness.

[davidbofinger]

How did the Giant persuade Stanley Kubrick to do a guest strip? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smallconfused.gif

It might be interesting to line up the panels with the facial expressions.

Roy is celebrating victory. The panels seem to line up pretty well.

One: Victory!
Two: Victory!
Three: Victory!
Six: Success!
Nine: Recognition
Fourteen: Friendship

Elan is drooling, what does it mean? I thought maybe gorgeous women, but no evidence of that here. Maybe he's just a drooler.

Four: Fraternal and Filial love
Thirteen: Romantic love
Fifteen: Simple Hedonism
Eighteen: Simple Hedonism

Haley doesn't look entirely happy. Her panels suggest she should be. On the other hand the first two are combat so maybe she's concentrating.

Five: Victory!
Eight: Victory!
Twelve: Treasure!

Belkar looks distinctly unhappy.

Seven (Is this Belkar's?): I'm dead, Mr. Scruffy's dead, nobody cared to raise me, and Roy and V don't care. On the plus side, Durkon is alive.

Hard to assign:

Ten: Focus is on V and Durkon. I guess Roy is the closest to the centre.
Eleven: Could be Roy, Haley or Elan.
Sixteen: Who cares about meeting the paladins again? Not obviously anyone. Not that O'Chul isn't an awesome guy.
Seventeen: O'Chul and the Monster in the Darkness resume their friendship. This really looks like the Monster's fantasy. I don't suppose he wandered in and got trapped by the runes? That seems unlikely. And would be weird. I suppose Elan is the next most likely to want it.



I think the match-up works best if we just look at the largest, outer panels.

[oppyu]

So... is this a joint illusion from all four, or parts of each member's illusion interspersed into one coherent narrative? I don't think all of this could be from one member; too many strips seem specific to one or two people. Roy and Haley probably wouldn't approve of Elan reuniting with his decidedly Evil family members, Haley and Elan probably don't care about Roy lording over his sister, Elan and Roy don't know the Azure City Resistance or the Thieves Guild well enough to picture Bozzok, Hank, the resistance leaders and Thanh, etc.

Also, I'm guessing that the next strip will be the paladins having infiltrated the temple, working together with the Linear Guild to try and unseat Xykon who's taken over the gate and inflicted significant casualties on both sides in the process. It's been a couple of weeks, and they're resurrecting the Order to try and launch a final assault to destroy the gate before Redcloak can give The Dark One the power to unmake reality.

[factotum]

I actually found the panel where Haley is fighting Tsukiko alongside Thanh and the others a little bit heartbreaking--they obviously don't know the Resistance are all dead. :smallfrown:

[B. Dandelion]

However, the oracle says in response to Elan's question. "Yes, for you at least."

Which means when the entire story is over, Elan will have a happy ending. That can be interpreted to here, with Elan being happy in an illusion, and dying during it. He would have died in happiness.

I don't want to quote the whole passage at you because it's kind of lengthy and it's what people pay for when they get the compilations, but suffice it to say I highly doubt the author was trying to pull some kind of literal-wording-gotcha in the commentary that underlined the rationale behind putting reader's fears to rest with Elan's prophecy.

[JavaScribe]

The bardic principle of "plans only work if you keep them a secret first"? I'm pretty sure it applies here. It's kinda sad, Roy was so excited about his new sword technique, but useful though I'm sure it'll be, it's pretty unlikely to deal the finishing blow now.

[Porthos]

You know, I just realized something. This comic shows that deep down, Roy still wants to make amends/have a decent relationship with his father. It wasn't even a rub-it-in-his-face type thing.

Given everything they've been through, that's actually kinda sweet.

<NOTE: Please don't suggest the possibility to me that's Elan's happy happy worldview overriding things. I'm engaging in willful blindness on that point. :smalltongue:>

[Chess Tyrant]

I don't want to quote the whole passage at you because it's kind of lengthy and it's what people pay for when they get the compilations, but suffice it to say I highly doubt the author was trying to pull some kind of literal-wording-gotcha in the commentary that underlined the rationale behind putting reader's fears to rest with Elan's prophecy.

Although you gotta admit, it'd be brilliantly evil if Elan died while imagining a happy future, and that counted as a happy ending.

[ti'esar]

I actually found the panel where Haley is fighting Tsukiko alongside Thanh and the others a little bit heartbreaking--they obviously don't know the Resistance are all dead. :smallfrown:

Funnily enough, that panel actually struck me as one of the examples of how this isn't actually as happy an ending as it could be in reality, but that the Order doesn't realize. After everything we've seen up to this point, I'm inclined to think some kind of permanent peace between the Azurites and the goblins would be a much happier ending than just retaking the city by force.

[Porthos]

Although you gotta admit, it'd be brilliantly evil if Elan died while imagining a happy future, and that counted as a happy ending.

No. No it would not be.

IMNSHO, that is.

[Dracon1us]

Hi everybody
a new addict is in town

I just want to congratulate the author for how beautiful your art has become...the last strip is awesome , with an insane attention to the detail

your visuals are matching your storytelling...and that's saying something

thanks 4 everything

ps
to me Belkar will be the first to awake

[Blaknic]

The bardic principle of "plans only work if you keep them a secret first"? I'm pretty sure it applies here. It's kinda sad, Roy was so excited about his new sword technique, but useful though I'm sure it'll be, it's pretty unlikely to deal the finishing blow now.

Oh, of course. Having the actual final fight with Xykon be a fundamental repeat of this one would be a tad...anticlimatic. So, either there will be a twist during the fight, changing the plan, or Xykon won't be the BBEG and get the climatic battle after all.

Also, I am going to back up Dandelion on this one- Mr. Giant showed a "prophesy twist" with Belkar, and it didn't fly then. I don't think that a prophesy that basically states "The plucky bard will have a happy story" will be twisted, and besides- the prophesy states that his story will be happy. Elan doesn't have to be happy or unhappy at his death, as his emotional condition has no effect on the happiness of his story. Dying in a mind controlled haze in the basement of some ziggurat isn't a happy ending to a story, no matter how happy Elan is at the time. This is not the end.


EDIT: Also, I think that the order is under the effect of an epic Illusion (phantasm) homebrewed to be the opposite of Weird (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Weird), sort of.

[zql]

Excellent, brilliant, outstanding strip. The mixed emotions are killing me. It's so bitter to see this (im)possible happy ending, but yet it is so touching to see like this the dreams and hopes of these characters.

I loved the panels with Durkon and V rebuilding the Gate and Belkar's funeral. Very OoTScrible style.

[nonamearisto]

Well, unlike the Superman story I've mentioned twice, they don't seem to be in any actual danger due to the illusion. At least not yet. It isn't feeding off of their life force or anything. Although if they are there for a long time, they could die of thirst or something. I doubt it will come to that.

[NeeL]

I believe this is all Elan's imagination.

Some of these things where mentioned by others, but I'm to lazy search back for them to quote them, sorry.

Elan wants a happy and story-worth theatrical ending. A death in the group for a good cause always works to make it a good dramatic story.
I think, he imagines for everybody how they would want to their lives to continue, in stead of everybody having their own illusions.

For example: Roy already met his father in the afterlife. Why would Roy suddenly think his father has wings and sits on a single cloud? Roy's been there and knows how his father and the afterlife looks like, Elan doesn't.
(EDIT: Nevermind, Roy saw the coexistent demiplane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) his father was waiting in because of the Blood Oath.
EDIT2:No, I was right in some way, Roy has been in the actual afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) and saw how people live there without wings.)
Also, Roy would want to make sure the phylactery is destroyed in a controlled way, knowing it's definitely destroyed. Not by throwing it in a volcano lava which has theatrical movie ending written all over it.

[Morquard]

Uh oh...

My first thought:
Title "Happy Ending" ...
"How will this end?" - "For you? With a Happy Ending"

Could Elan die before the Illusion is broken, thinking all is well and happy?

My second thought:
Naw... that wouldn't happen, would it? There's an afterlife and at the latest at that point Elan would realize and be less than happy. Unless... Banjo fools him into thinking all is well and happy still, to not ruin his afterlife.

Third thought:
Damn it could happen, but I really really hope it doesn't.

[Mike Havran]

Just...wow. This strip is so amazing on many levels, but so ominous and sad on others, as maybe half of panels are beyond reasonable possibility of happenning "in reality".

Also, I wonder why Belkar has no dream there. None would be very nice I guess :smallamused: It can be seen which are Roy's, Haley's, Elan's (or some could be "shared"), but clearly, no one belongs to Belkar. Could that mean HE will be the one that breaks from the illusion first?

Also, hats off to Girard. That is a brilliant defense. If your foes are so determined that they assault the pyramid, they are bound to have a big goal. So why not fulfill it for them? Give them dream of all they desire, and they will not even want to leave it and return to the bleak, depressing and uncertain reality. And after a few days, a couple of defenders will put on Girard's Dreamworld Ward and collect the dead bodies from the corridor.

[Bret_Hawkeye]

Stop messing with my head, Mr. Burlew. :smalleek:

Can't wait to see the reality again.

[Scowling Dragon]

You know what I realized? That this is the standard D&D adventure progression.

This is how OOTs would play out in an Ordinary adventure.

[Bulldog Psion]

Excellent, brilliant, outstanding strip. The mixed emotions are killing me. It's so bitter to see this (im)possible happy ending, but yet it is so touching to see like this the dreams and hopes of these characters.


Yes, it's actually pretty dark that most of their happy endings can happen only in an illusion. :smallfrown: Hits a little too close to real life, in a way. Which, of course, makes it genius, too.

Roy defeats Xykon with the might of his good right arm -- highly unlikely.
Elan, Nale, and Tarquin reconcile -- impossible.
Haley fights alongside the resistance -- impossible.
Durkon is alive and well, shares their victory, goes drinking happily with them -- "never, til the sun fails and the moon is dead."
Various reconciliations with parents -- maaaybe.

Pretty sad, really, how many of their hopes are totally impossible.

[Morquard]

Also, I wonder why Belkar has no dream there. None would be very nice I guess :smallamused: It can be seen which are Roy's, Haley's, Elan's (or some could be "shared"), but clearly, no one belongs to Belkar. Could that mean HE will be the one that breaks from the illousion first?

Honestly I think last strip was Roy's illusion. Straight up fight, wacking Xykon.

This is Elan's. An epic story with wrapping up all the loose ends and everyone's happy at the end. The panels not about Elan are him imagining what would be "best" for everyone.

I think we'll be seeing Belkar's soon, maybe where he kills everyone. Or where he realizes that killing everyone is not actually what would make him most happy. And then he dies for real.

[Lorcan]

Dear Giant,

Thank you.

Fantastic art. Fantastic writing. Love #887.

[Bulldog Psion]

This is Elan's. An epic story with wrapping up all the loose ends and everyone's happy at the end. The panels not about Elan are him imagining what would be "best" for everyone.

Much as I like your theory, panel 5 includes people Elan never met (Thanh and Niu), and panel 9 involves rubbing Julia's nose in Roy's success (a pure Roy fantasy, and again, I don't think Elan ever met her, he had been replaced by Nale by then).

[jidasfire]

Beautifully done comic. To address the concern that this comic might be burning daylight in an already long arc with several loose ends still hanging, I would say it is necessary, just to show the power and scope of the illusion in question. We might have assumed that this was an epic spell that holds on and doesn't let go, but now we're sure of it, and we see that it is giving the victims exactly what they want, spiraling out into infinity. I believe it was Alan Moore who said that happiness is the most insidious prison of all, and it seems Girard agrees.

On a sad note, the ending beats are pretty much how optimistic readers had been expecting the comic to end. What's painful about that is, even if we ignore the contradictory to reality bits, it seems like this could be interpreted as a message from the author, as to say, "See all that stuff? Yeah, none of that's going to happen." I do hope I'm wrong about that, and I know we're promised a happy ending from at least one perspective, but I suspect that it won't in any way resemble the one we're now seeing.

[kxm]

I found this one of the sadder comics for some reason...it's this perfect saccharine happiness that we know won't happen. And the art style makes it that much more powerful.

[Azukar]

First thought: Awesome non-standard panel layout!

Second thought: Nooooooo! I want more more more (content in this update)!

Third thought: No matter how far down you spiral, Belkar is dead.

Fourth thought: Elan is still second to gold in Hayley's dream!

[Twig]

So everyone here just forgot that Belkar is DESTINED to die? The whole group knows that, how could they see anything but Belkar being dead in their illusions? Him living is just not an option.

[Porthos]

Third thought: No matter how far down you spiral, Belkar is dead.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre....

[Temotei]

I'm...kind of disappointed in Roy, if these dreams are of any indication of his inner self. :smallconfused::smallsigh:

[Mike Havran]

Honestly I think last strip was Roy's illusion. Straight up fight, wacking Xykon.

This is Elan's. An epic story with wrapping up all the loose ends and everyone's happy at the end. The panels not about Elan are him imagining what would be "best" for everyone.

I think we'll be seeing Belkar's soon, maybe where he kills everyone. Or where he realizes that killing everyone is not actually what would make him most happy. And then he dies for real.

I doubt that this is solely Elan's dream. He has no idea of the Julie-Roy-Eugene relationship and Haley certainly did not describe Bozzok vs. Ian struggle.

I would see it like this is a mix of all their dreams. Panels:
1. Roy (or all)
2. Roy (or all)
3. Roy (or all)
4. Elan
5. Haley
6. Roy
7. Elan (or all)
8. Haley
9. Roy
10.Roy
11.Elan/Haley
12.Haley
13.Elan
14.Roy
15.Elan
16.?Haley
17.?Haley/Elan
18.Elan
19....

[luc258]

I really wonder if the panel is a collection of the wishes of all the OOTS members present or just Roy and what Roy thinks the others want.

[rodneyAnonymous]

It seems like they are in the same fantasy world, not that they are seeing different illusions.

1) nothing from Belkar's point of view
2) several panels with more than one character getting a happy ending, e.g. the one with Haley/Elan and Roy/Celia
3) consistent world-state (for example who is alive and in what condition) in all panels
4) no evidence against a shared vision, or for separate visions

[Morquard]

Haley has been pretty open with Elan lately and told him the story of Bozzok and her dad probably. So yes he could imagine that being the best ending to that feud.

Even if Elan was replaced by Nale by the time "he" met Julia, he knew about her. He went there with the others to save her. So having Roy reunited with her makes sense for him.

Do you really think Roy dreams about having his statue 20 ft high? I never saw him like wanting overly much glory. Elan on the other hand thinks that's a perfectly reasonable story-like thing to happen for the hero of a story.

TBH, having all of this being Elan makes alot more sense than it being a mix, because some of those are quite weird for some of them.
Haley sparing Bozzok. Roy's statue. Eugene's wings.

[nonamearisto]

On a positive note, since this illusion seems to be feeding at least some feasible advice (like using a forcecage on Redcloak), it might be giving them some help in the event of a real fight. Durkon is still a vampire, though. :smallfrown:

[Melee]

Well, the Order will absolutely NOT be happy when the illusion/enchantment is broken, when they realise that it was fake and they are still in their current apparently hopeless situation.

Maybe V will be the most clearly-thinking one of the bunch when s/he shows up :smalleek:

[Mike Havran]

Haley has been pretty open with Elan lately and told him the story of Bozzok and her dad probably. So yes he could imagine that being the best ending to that feud.
Haley was more open with him than with others, but it's not like the Thieves' Guild power struggle is a chatty topic for her and that image is of the one who knows the Guild from personal exp., not just a story

Even if Elan was replaced by Nale by the time "he" met Julia, he knew about her. He went there with the others to save her. So having Roy reunited with her makes sense for him.He has no idea about Julia and Roy's rivalry. The sour expression of her face is definitely Roy's imagination.

Do you really think Roy dreams about having his statue 20 ft high? I never saw him like wanting overly much glory. Elan on the other hand thinks that's a perfectly reasonable story-like thing to happen for the hero of a story. Yes, of course Roy dreams of that statue and rubbing it into his sister's face. This is exactly Roy's nature, he's pretty egotistical after all.

TBH, having all of this being Elan makes alot more sense than it being a mix, because some of those are quite weird for some of them.
Haley sparing Bozzok. Roy's statue. Eugene's wings.Nobody says Haley wouldn't kill Bozzok after the ceremony. And I don't interpret the strip as all the panels being in all minds, but rather as a selection of their respective dream sequences.

[nonamearisto]

Well, the Order will absolutely NOT be happy when the illusion/enchantment is broken, when they realise that it was fake and they are still in their current apparently hopeless situation.

Maybe V will be the most clearly-thinking one of the bunch when s/he shows up :smalleek:

Maybe the runes have to be disrupted, because... oh... this:

http://i47.tinypic.com/403h1.jpg

As to how they will NOT be happy...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1x6e3fHmW1qbj79io1_1280.jpg

[Giggling Ghast]

This does seem to be a mass shared hallucination.

I wonder if dying is what Belkar wants to do now. Since he gets buried with his faithful cat, he might consider that a happy ending.

[Starwaster]

Uh oh. Did Elan just get his happy ending?

If so, he needs to go back and get a refund. Belkar-style.

[Malak'ai]

Haven't read all the posts, but I just have to say... WOOHOO! Banjo gets some female-sock-puppet love! :smallbiggrin:.

Oh... And poor Belkar... Everyone wants him dead :smallfrown:.

[Incendax]

It is all what Elan wants to happen.

[ti'esar]

If this is Elan's illusion (which I doubt), I wonder if that means the next strips will be Haley and Belkar's?

[AvangionQ]

Wow, that's one hell of an epic tier illusion!

[Math_Mage]

Either it's a shared illusion with composite impressions of a happy ending, or different panels are from different illusions. No evidence either way. Some panels (especially the one with Tarquin and Nale) are certainly not what Roy would see as a happy ending. But Roy is the only member of the party that could generate every panel from his own memories.


I'm...kind of disappointed in Roy, if these dreams are of any indication of his inner self. :smallconfused::smallsigh:

Why, because he'd like a statue? Because he doesn't care about Belkar? Just how pure would Roy have to be for the illusion to reverse those statements?

[Leolo]

If this is Elan's illusion Roy would be sad over Belkar's dead and would also comfort Elan.

So i say it is shared between Elan, Roy and Haley. Maybe we will get a version of V + Belkar next, but it could also be that we simple doesn't see every dream they have.

[Weimann]

Let's see if I've go this right.

Panel 1 (counting clockwise): They defeat Team Evil and get hold of Xykon's phylactery.
Panel 2: Durkon rejoins the party.
Panel 3: They throw the phylactery into a volcano.
Panel 4: Elans family reunites.
Panel 5: Azure City is retaken.
Panel 6: Roy obtains his father's approval.
Panel 7: Belkar is buried. Guess they didn't have diamonds.
Panel 8: Haley conquers the thieves' guild.
Panel 9: Roy gets a huge statue.
Panel 10: The remaining gates are sealed.
Panel 11: Epic makeouts.
Panel 12: Haley becomes a duck.
Panel 13: The Almighty Banjo gets a girlfriend.
Panel 14: Roy and Durkon hangs out, dwarf style.
Panel 15: Elan rides a dinosaur.
Panel 16: Hinjo and that woman, I forget her name, returns.
Panel 17: MitD and O-Chul reunite.
Panel 18: Elan gets a lollipop.
Panel 19: Too blurry to make out.

Sounds about right?

[Leolo]

One thing (don't know if someone noticed this until now): V doesn't look happy in any of her/his appearances. Maybe this shows V doubts the illusion, clearly she/he would be a good candidate to find out it is an illusion.

Better than Belkar, who can be mindaffected pretty easy as we have seen. Would only work if V is also affected soon, though.

[thereaper]

V is not in the room.

[Porthos]

Maybe we will get a version of V + Belkar next, but it could also be that we simple doesn't see every dream they have.
One thing (don't know if someone noticed this until now): V doesn't look happy in any of her/his appearances. Maybe this shows V doubts the illusion, clearly she/he would be a good candidate to find out it is an illusion.

Better than Belkar, who can be mindaffected pretty easy as we have seen.

V isn't there yet. :smallsmile:

[Holy_Knight]

However, the oracle says in response to Elan's question. "Yes, for you at least."

Which means when the entire story is over, Elan will have a happy ending. That can be interpreted to here, with Elan being happy in an illusion, and dying during it. He would have died in happiness.
Not at all. Let's try this out:

"...and then he, his true love, and his best friend in the whole world slowly starved to death, while they all hallucinated that their entire quest was not an utter failure. One of his missing friends was found and killed by their enemies, and the other remained an unholy mockery of everything he had ever stood for in life. After some fighting between multiple sets of bad guys, the most powerful among them was victorious. With no one left to oppose them, the forces of evil ushered in a new age of hell-on-earth. The End."

I assure you, that is NOT a happy ending for Elan.


Guys, you can stop freaking out about this being Elan's prophecy. War and XPs commentary says his prophecy is a word from the Giant to the readers that when the entire story is over Elan will have a happy ending, and that while things might get scary for a while they will work out in the end.
Exactly.


On another note, I can tell it's O-Chul now, but at first I thought the MiTD was meeting two other shadowy beings--which made me think the dream was of him finding his parents or others of his species and discovering what he is. That would be a nice thing for him too. :)

[PsykoKnight]

Epic Panel!!!

To the question about shared dream vs one of seperate partymembers dream, notice the upper right corner.

Is this skin above the eye? Is it Roys face?
It is a bit lighter brown than his skin, but still a closer match for than anybody else in the party.

If its correct it does not say that its not a shared illusion, only that it is experienced by Roy.

[Giggling Ghast]

Is that a lollipop Elan is holding or a rattle?

[thereaper]

Epic Panel!!!

To the question about shared dream vs one of seperate partymembers dream, notice the upper right corner.

Is this skin above the eye? Is it Roys face?
It is a bit lighter brown than his skin, but still a closer match for than anybody else in the party.

If its correct it does not say that its not a shared illusion, only that it is experienced by Roy.

That is the ceiling. Check the previous pages.

[veti]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this looks like the end of Book 5?

But then the Giant usually announces those, with some fanfare. It's a very downbeat note to end on, but it seems pretty clear this book is - not going to end with free puppies all round.

[Kim]

\To the question about shared dream vs one of seperate partymembers dream, notice the upper right corner.

Is this skin above the eye? Is it Roys face?
It is a bit lighter brown than his skin, but still a closer match for than anybody else in the party.


I think it's the ceiling. Check out the other recent strips. {Ninja'd at 5:20 in the morning. Can't say I expected that, although I probably should've...}

I'm personally leaning toward this being all Elan's dream, with some artistic license on the Giant's part for the characters Elan hasn't seen. (Easier than having all of us asking, "Who's that with Roy underneath his statue?", etc.)

[RolyPoly]

So either individual fantasies, or a shared fantasy gleaned from the minds of each OOTS member and stitched together into a mostly coherent story. Except Belkar. Or Mr Scruffy, come to that.

I don't believe Belkar does self loathing, so I don't buy the theory that we're seeing any of his fantasies. Besides, Belkar's fantasy would involve some major halfling originated arse kicking. Looks like he resisted the illusion, which maybe isn't surprising, since Belkar isn't a great believer in happy endings either. I guess the "Belkar's dead" moment in the previous issue was the illusion seamlessly snipping Belkar out of the plotline. He does get a statue though.

This is his moment I guess. If ever there was a need for a sarcastic mean-spirited pain in the arse to puncture the illusions of his so-called friends, it's now.

[Jiggs]

Nice! Quiet a 'Happy Ending' !
Makes me wonder if the comic might one day could end in a way like this.
:sigh: ok, but not today, since it is an illusion :frown:

Anyways, if I were to venture a guess, it would be that the strip is a compilation of the illusions of all hypnotised characters.

[FLHerne]

Oracle "For you, at least."
Perhaps this is an excuse to make it end badly for Elan after all? :smallfrown:

[Seharvepernfan]

Saddest comic yet?

Saddest comic yet.

Man, this one got me.

[Werbaer]

I miss Durkon returning to the dwarven homelands. He isn't dreaming, but Roy knows that Durkon wants to return more than anything else.

And we don't see anything like a good ending for V. Not about reuniting with hir mate, since the order doesn't know about those events; but i would expect Elan to imagine hir becoming the post powerful mage ever.

Regarding throwing the phylactery into the vulcano: Unlike some other famous jewelry, it might not get destroyed, with all that protection spells on it; but i doubt Xykon will manage to regenerate in lava.

And did nobody mention Haleys dad? It looks like he becomes leader of the thieves guild again. Or would that be Haley herself?

[Harye Sidur]

Bad@ss McPurrington (Belkar's cat) cannot read the runes and since they're not in a language it understands...is not mind controlled. It's also not in any panel.

Deus Ex felinicus incoming.

[NeeL]

After reading all that has been said, I still believe this is Elan's perspective on the afterlife and thus only Elan's illusion.

Because, if this is a shared illusion, why would Roy see his father with wings, instead of without wings like everybody else on the mountain in the afterlife, where Roy's father will go after the Blood Oath is fulfilled?

Those wings, the evil eyes on the phylactery and the theatrical destruction of the phylactery are evidence for me that this is all Elan's point of view.

[JackRackham]

Call me crazy, but this strip gave me a sinking feeling in my stomach like none have in a while. Why?

'Will this story have a happy ending?'

'Yes. For you at least'

Keep in mind that the oracle has shown meta-awareness before. And this story now has a 'happy ending.' All bets are now off people. Anything can happen again.

EDIT: 'For you at least' gives me hope, though.

[Gift Jeraff]

Cool strip. Who is behind O-Chul in the MitD panel?

Also, if V was sharing in the illusion, I imagine s/he wouldn't have the same attitude as Roy towards Belkar's funeral. Belkar and V seem to have developed something resembling a friendship as of late.

[Halaku]

Looks like he resisted the illusion, which maybe isn't surprising, since Belkar isn't a great believer in happy endings either. I guess the "Belkar's dead" moment in the previous issue was the illusion seamlessly snipping Belkar out of the plotline. He does get a statue though.

This is his moment I guess. If ever there was a need for a sarcastic mean-spirited pain in the arse to puncture the illusions of his so-called friends, it's now.

I don't think he resisted the illusion (he had the same eyes of the other at the last panel of the last strip). In my opinion, the spell killed Belkar because they know Belkar must die, in account of the prophecy. Roy and Haley know it for sure, and the others should know even if they don't realize, because Roy said so a few strips ago. Maybe the spell creates the "happiest" ending it can that is still "possible".

Another posibility: what if the spell does not create always a happy ending? It could create an illusion that matches the target's allignement (happy ending if you are good, not so happy if you are evil). That also would fit here, and could be something that a neutral Girard could craft (I know we don't know for sure that he is neutral).

[Pory]

Interesting strip. I love the little details, like:

3rd panel - Durkon close his eyes (Dinnae look down, dinnae look down...)
5th panel - Thanh kills Jirix. Once again, he's always killed by paladins...and Miko too :smallamused:
9th panel - Roy's statue is in Cliffport (there are flying machines) just in case Julia forgets. Jerk move there, Roy :smalltongue:

[Kish]

"How will this end?" - "For you? With a Happy Ending"
Except for the minor fact that that was not the question, nor was that the answer.

[Varidan]

Not sure if anyone caught this, too many pages to go through, but it looks like in the panel with Tsukiko, Nale is also helping them fight, you can see him in the corner...

EDIT: Nvm, upon further inspection, its not Nale. I thought it was him because what you coudl see of his shirt looks black. I thought it would be cool since in the panel before that, it shows Elan and him shaking hands.

[Math_Mage]

To repeat, Rich has said in the commentary that Elan's prophecy refers to the actual ending. He's not pulling a fast one.

[gorocz]

In order - reunion with Hinjo and Lien, O-Chul reuniting with MitD, Elan with what appears to be a large lollipop, and after that too small to discern.


My first thought was Elan putting a flower on Therkla's grave during a sunset...




I'm also very afraid about how long they've been standing there now-it looks like that would have had to take a long time in reality. :smalleek:

In a setting where you can pass several hours by saying a few words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html) and where this is possible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html)? I'd say it was just a happy ending montage, not really living all the time it'd take for all those things to happen.

[fan4battle]

Not sure if anyone caught this, too many pages to go through, but it looks like in the panel with Tsukiko, Nale is also helping them fight, you can see him in the corner...

It's easy to confuse twin brothers. ;)

[Wonton]

Uh oh. Did Elan just get his happy ending?

Oh dear, I hope not.

Now that I think about it, seeing as how Elan's question to the Oracle was phrased ("Will this story have a happy ending?"), the response only makes sense if the entire comic has a happy ending. Even if Elan thinks this is the happy ending, the whole story still can't have an unhappy ending (assuming the Oracle is infallible, of course).

[gorocz]

After reading all that has been said, I still believe this is Elan's perspective on the afterlife and thus only Elan's illusion.

Because, if this is a shared illusion, why would Roy see his father with wings, instead of without wings like everybody else on the mountain in the afterlife, where Roy's father will go after the Blood Oath is fulfilled?

Those wings, the evil eyes on the phylactery and the theatrical destruction of the phylactery are evidence for me that this is all Elan's point of view.

Evil eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) are certainly not only Elan's PoW.

[Cerlis]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

and the sky is blue

[Kazul]

Saddest comic yet?

Saddest comic yet.

Man, this one got me.

Pretty much this. :smallfrown:

[fan4battle]

Oh, and whomever thought this might be Elan's happy ending, don't forget he's destined to have a dramatic duel with his father, probably on the palace's staircase.

[Topus]

I think this is the fulfillment of Elan's prophecy, but this doesn't mean his death.
The question was "Will this story have a happy ending?" which is slightly different from "Will this story end happily?". Now the story have a happy ending (even if illusory), at least for Elan.

[Francis Davey]

After reading all that has been said, I still believe this is Elan's perspective on the afterlife and thus only Elan's illusion.

It is extremely difficult to reconcile that with Julia's frown. As I've said that is an intentional detail. Roy doesn't just get recognition, he sticks it to his sister as well. There is no way that Elan would think that way - it is against his nature - and it is unlikely (as others have said) that he would even consider it. The flying machines locating it in Cliffport give some support to that point.

Some of the other panels don't fit well into Elan's mind either, even if others inescapably must be (Banjo's new girlfriend for instance). I agree that a great many of them can be attributed to Elan (his hero worship of Roy means that some good for Roy outcomes are good for Elan too).

So, most likely either each panel is one person's imagination or there is some combination effect going on where the magic draws from each person's mind.

[Math_Mage]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

You say padding, I say pacing, po-tay-to po-tah-to. Just how far were you expecting to get before encountering Girard's epic illusions? Just how quickly do you expect the comic to dispense with the epic illusion?

Durkon died just ten strips ago. We arrived at the Windy Canyon just fifty strips ago. The Dungeon of Dorukan lasted over a hundred strips. How is this being padded?

[stsasser]

Stunning comic and puppet love!

[Killer Angel]

A great panel, I must say, with wonderful details.
Such a sad strip... :smallfrown:

[Roland Itiative]

Those wings, the evil eyes on the phylactery and the theatrical destruction of the phylactery are evidence for me that this is all Elan's point of view.
The eyes are consistent with what we've seen when Xykon's soul was inhabiting the trinket way back after the dungeon of Dorukan. No one in the Order would have any reason to know that, but I guess the Giant added it in as a little reminder to us that, in the dream, they got the real phylactery, not RC's alternate holy symbol (which the Order also doesn't know about).

As for the comic itself... Not the best of pages. It was fun and a little bit sad seeing what the Order (or Roy, or Elan, whatever) wants most, and how it's completely unrealistic in some ways (specially the panels with Durkon, that had a very bittersweet feel), but in the end this was a page where literally nothing happened. No comedy, no plot advancement, no exposition, no conflict.

[Cranica]

thog will always treasure talky-man's illusionary fantasy. it feature non-traditional panel layout.

[quasit]

Wow, this is just...shocking.Very well done


I miss Durkon returning to the dwarven homelands. He isn't dreaming, but Roy knows that Durkon wants to return more than anything else.

And we don't see anything like a good ending for V. Not about reuniting with hir mate, since the order doesn't know about those events; but i would expect Elan to imagine hir becoming the post powerful mage ever.



About that: Roy totally wishes he wasn't (un)dead. I think that, as he's bound to go back posthumously, he just thinks there's no reason for being hasty about that and have a bit of time to enjoy their friendship, with no save the world plots involved.

Belkar dying in a shared fantasy makes sense: no matter what he does(or pretends, or whatever)can change the impression his teammates have about him (and one of those was on the brink of executing him on the spot), said teamates are expecting him to die soon and looks like they don't give a damn either, he's drained, weak and almost useless at this point, only managing to do what he's best at by talking out Roy; and, on top of that, there's strong hints that he's undergoing survivors guilt. Well, at least he's having a kickass tombstone, that's something.
It just sucks to be him. :smalleek:

[SteveMB]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

It emphasizes just how compelling the illusion is, and implies that they might be stuck for some time, :smalleek:

[notaro]

I am worried that now we have seen the happy ending, maybe even Elan's happy ending, that these events will not come to pass in reality. Does this fantasy happy ending hint at a real tragic ending?

[Roland Itiative]

It emphasizes just how compelling the illusion is, and implies that they might be stuck for some time, :smalleek:

I don't see any implication that the illusion is taking a lot of real time. It may be, or it may not be. Dreams often have apparently long durations, while being quite short in real time, and this is pretty much a forced dream.

[Vreejack]

Do they get XP for this?

Actually, this would be such an incredible mind-f___ to pull on a group. It actually makes me want to run a campaign again for the first time in decades.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

As much as I enjoy a comic that steps outside its artistic constraints, I'm going to be perfectly and brutally honest here. I'm not really reading OotS for the art. So I'll just say there was a mild hint of exasperation in my grunt upon reading the new comic, because it feels like the story was put on hold for it.

Good effort, though.


Do they get XP for this?

Actually, this would be such an incredible mind-f___ to pull on a group. It actually makes me want to run a campaign again for the first time in decades.

Make sure you have your affairs in order, your players will kill you.

[Marelt Ekiran]

I'm also going to argue for the side that this entire thing is Elan's fantasy. That would resolve the "Belkar is dead" inconsistency that arises from the assumption that this whole thing is a shared consciousness. Besides, there are a few things that are off:

Roy waving his father goodbye as he departs as an angel... Roy made it very clear that he is only completing the quest for the good of the world and quite frankly thinks that his father deserves no more than to linger at Heaven's gates forever for the blatant selfishness with which he treats this whole thing. Generally speaking, his relationship with Julia is better, so it doesn't really make sense to have his feeling smugly superior over her while being all cozy with his father. Elan, on the other hand, has never met Roy's father and probably doesn't know much about their animosity. However, he has met Roy's sister and probably seen some of the sibling rivalry, which he understands better himself.

Haley made it very clear that she has broken with the thieves' guild for good and openly referred to everyone in there as total *******s. Even if it involved Bozzok eating humble pie, it is very unlikely that her happy ending would involve reconciling with them. However, when Haley told Elan about her life and recent adventure there, she probably only mentioned Bozzok as the major villain and left it at that. With that kept in mind, that whole panel makes much more sense.

While Belkar is definitely changing, I refuse to buy that he has changed enough as to wish himself dead because of mere survivor's guilt. As such, I highly doubt that his ending would involve him dying. However, from Elan's point of view, Belkar cannot consistently live and keep on murdering and have the whole thing be a happy ending and even with Elan's idealism, it's probably too late for him to redeem. As far as he is concerned, a heroic death in the final battle is the best thing that Belkar as a character can hope for. At least, that way, he will be remembered for something better than mindless evil.

All the bits are consistent with what other characters would reasonably have told Elan and the information that Elan has access to. If Vaarsuvius were included in this whole thing, her happy ending would most definitely involve reconciliation with her family, which since she didn't tell Elan about any of these events, they are excluded and Vaarsuvius doesn't get much development because Elan knows little. Likewise, if this were Roy's dream, then Durkon would in all likelihood be returning home, since Roy knows about Durkon's past. However, Elan joined the team later and probably never heard that story. As such, the only thing he can think of for Durkon is being alive and having a beer.

[sam79]

This strip is made of awesome, with a side of win. I love every single panel, but highlights must include Roy and Julia's reactions to the massive statue of Sir Greenhilt, and Elan standing at the door of Haley's Room O' Gold.

I've not read any of the preceeding comment pages, but I imagine (with the title of the strip especially) that there is speculation as to whether this counts as the fulfilment of Elan's prophesy. My view would be no. No more than Belkar's death in a dream sequence fulfils his prophesy.

On the speculation as to whether 886 was just Roy's vision, or a vision shared by everyone; well, it seems that the scales are tipped in favour of 'shared vision'. This could be Roy imagining his preferred outcome for everyone, but I think that everyone is seeing the same thing.

On a second reading, I was pleased to see (in a very small panel) the MitD and O-Chul together again, but I would have liked to see V reconciling with her partner and kids.

And as to how much of this will happen for realsies...wow, that's a sad thought.

[RNGgod]

I'm intrigued by the way that they don't appear to kill Redcloak. He's tied up in panel 2, as well. What happens to him? Could he possibly be the one standing behind O-Chul?

Also, this confirms that the Order, or at least one member of the Order, has been made aware that the MITD could potentially defect.

[Adeptus]

Awesome happy ending. The wake-up will be brutal.

I'm intrigued by the way that they don't appear to
Also, this confirms that the Order, or at least one member of the Order, has been made aware that the MITD could potentially defect.
I think the epic illusion magic and the nature of the comic makes it possible for there to be revelations in the illusion, unknown to any of the dreamers.

Case in point: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html

[Poppy Appletree]

Uh oh. Did Elan just get his happy ending?

I am now dangerously afraid that Elan will die.

[RNGgod]

Awesome happy ending. The wake-up will be brutal.

I think the epic illusion magic and the nature of the comic makes it possible for there to be revelations in the illusion, unknown to any of the dreamers.

Case in point: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html

Fair enough. I don't mean that Redcloak's fate is actually relevant, just that it's interesting if they don't kill him.

[oppyu]

I just had a horrifying thought that this illusion thing is going to turn into that one level from Dragon Age: Origins, where you spend hours trapped in a dreary not-the-real-world hellhole without making any substantial progress as far as plot goes.

Giant, I love your work, but if this turns into 50-100 strips of navigating Roy's twisted Belkar-killing fantasies, then I may love your work slightly less. Like, from a 9.5/10 to a 8.5/10.

[Gift Jeraff]

Elan has never even seen Jirix, Thanh, Tsukiko, Niu, the other resistance leaders, Eugene, Bozzok, Hank, or Julia, so this is definitely a shared illusion of some sort.

[Kish]

Things that are not accurate paraphrases of the Oracle's prophecy for Elan:
2) You will have a happy moment at some point during this story.

Egads people.

[Taffimai]

Today's comic fills me with sadness.

[SteveMB]

Hm, you're right!

O'Chul definitely seems to be holding something, and it could very well be :mitd:'s hand. Which would imply that he has a hand, and that it would be somewhat yellowish.

More fuel for the fires of speculation, I guess. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, nobody there knows what the MitD looks like, so if so it's pure speculation filling in a detail of the illusion.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Gamall]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

Not every single strip has to "advance" the plot. This is not a "gag a day" comic, and hasn't been from the very first arc onward; it's meant to be read in one go.

I for one thought that strip was brilliant. So there. :smallbiggrin:

[SteveMB]

Also, this confirms that the Order, or at least one member of the Order, has been made aware that the MITD could potentially defect.

Well, they would have heard from O-Chul about making friends with the MitD, so it's a known fact extrapolated into the illusion (like Redcloak's missing eye / eyepatch).

[The Pilgrim]

I love how Roy totally doesn't gives a crap about Belkar's demise. Feeling shared by V. Also, Durkon shows up with Malack alive, implying that Belkar was lying when he said that Durkon was vampirized.

It's lovely also how they think Thahn, Eyepatch Girl, Samuray Guy and Tsukiko are still alive.

And, of course, it's lovely how they think Redcloak is mostly harmless and will surrender without a fight. Like if he hadn't his own agenda and all. The OOTS have no idea still about what's the real plan out there.

Interesting how there is no resolution to V's soul selling. Of course, since it's Roy's illusion, and he doesn't knows about V's deal.

What doesn't hang well there is Tarquin. If it's Roy's illusion, Tarquin and Nale should be slain. If it was Elan's - Tarquin would remarry his mother. But in this illusion it's ok with Nale making amedments with Elan (possibly forced by his father). Weird.

Also, since Belkar dies and stays dead, I suppose it can't be an illusion shared by all four standing members of the OOTS - as Belkar would never think he dying is a happy ending.

[Ellye]

Here's a cheerful thought:

The illusion seems to be playing out the fantasies of the combined group. We see things that clearly correspond to Roy's, Elan's, and Haley's "happy ending." They even show Durkon coming back... so, in this fantasy, it would be entirely consistent for Belkar to be resurrected. He's not.

What if part of that is Belkar's fantasy? Maybe he's actually feeling guilty for Durkon's death, to the extent that he wishes he were dead himself?I'm get this feeling too...
The panels with dead Belkar and with Durkon coming back might be as much Belkar's fantasies as they are Roy's.

[theinsulabot]

I probably should have liked the strip more then I did. Eh.

Anyway, put me down for shared hallucination that each added a bit into, rather then something created by elan or Roy alone, because if its one person imagining happy endings for the others, the complete lack of material for V doesn't hold up. Either elan or Roy probably don't know what V wants right now, admittedly, but they almost certainly think they could make a guess about it, and the lack of a panel with v in a giant library or becoming a god of magic or something heavily implies nobody is creating happy endings for other people.

[Mido]

The suspense is killing me. That, and those panels just make me sad because I know it's an illusion. :smallsigh:

[Obscure Blade]

I don't want to quote the whole passage at you because it's kind of lengthy and it's what people pay for when they get the compilations, but suffice it to say I highly doubt the author was trying to pull some kind of literal-wording-gotcha in the commentary that underlined the rationale behind putting reader's fears to rest with Elan's prophecy.On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Elan decides that this was his happy ending (and is surprised when he gets a real one in the epilogue). A prophecy being fulfilled according to its literal wording in an ironic way is exactly the sort of plot twist that fulfills his Bardic view of how the world works.



For example: Roy already met his father in the afterlife. Why would Roy suddenly think his father has wings and sits on a single cloud? Roy's been there and knows how his father and the afterlife looks like, Elan doesn't.
(EDIT: Nevermind, Roy saw the coexistent demiplane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) his father was waiting in because of the Blood Oath.
EDIT2:No, I was right in some way, Roy has been in the actual afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) and saw how people live there without wings.)Roy's memory of the afterlife is quite vague (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) however; check the 4th panel.

[nephilia]

So Belker dies in Elan's happy ending? I wonder if we'll get to see Haley and Belker's illusions as well.

This is not Elan's happy ending imho.
If it were there should be at least one panel where he and roy are eating ice cream together or doing something that involve the brotherhood relashionship he desire so much.

[ManuelSacha]

First: Roy. He's smugly triumphant here.
Second: Roy. Durkon is back and Belkar is dead.
Third: Roy. Again, he's the main participant.
Fourth: Elan. One big semi-happy family.
Fifth: Haley. Tsukiko going down, Resistance winning, Thanh.
Sixth: Roy. Reconciled with dad.
Seventh: Roy. Rejoicing over Belkar's demise.
Eighth: Haley. Ian is approving, Bozzok is defeated.
Ninth: Roy. Giant statue of him (man, he really does crave fame and recognition, doesn't he??), Julia ticked off.
Tenth: Uncertain.
Eleventh: Elan. The hopeless romantic.
Twelfth: Haley. Gold, gold, gold!!!!
Thirteenth: Elan. Who else with puppets?
Fourteenth: Roy. Durkon's alive and they're partying.
Fifteenth: Elan. Woooooo! I'm riding a dinosaur!!!
Sixteenth: Haley? Involves Azure City or Sapphire Guard in some way.
Seventeenth: Who the heck???? MitD and O-Chul? What's going on here???
Eighteenth: Elan. Elan with a lollipop.
Nineteenth on: Indistinguishable. I think V is in #19, but beyond that it's too small to see. The others are probably just blank.

Who is imagining the MitD hanging around with O-Chul???? :smalleek:

First: Everyone. It's the continuation of the previous comic, and it's the capture of two feared enemies.

Third: Everyone. Again, defeating Xykon and Team Evil was their common purpose and they're all happy they did it in dreamland.

Seventh: Elan. Of course! It's the only one who seems to care (besides the always proper Durkon, who isn't really there). Haley is kinda just "sad because her bf his sad". The others just don't care enough. Shame on you for thinking Roy might rejoice at Belkar's (and Scruffy's) death. Besides, the dramatic scene in which we mourn the loss of our friends is a required passage in the "action movie ending" Elan envisions for his story.

Tenth: Everyone. Again very simple. Closing the Gate is the Order's common purpose just as much as defeating Team Evil.

Eleventh: Everyone. Yes, of course Elan is the romantic guy, and of course this fits into the ideal "action movie ending" Elan would crave for, but I'm pretty sure that Haley and Roy are looking forward to this, too.

Seventeenth: Haley? Is Elan standing behind O-Chul? I can't tell. Anyway, to be completely honest, this panel baffles me, because, as far as I know, nobody in the Order knows about the odd friendship between O-Chul and MitD. And, IIRC, only Haley and Belkar even ever saw the latter. Will the next page show that O-Chul is trapped in there with them, as well? Will that lead to O-Chul joining the Order? Am I the one daydreaming now? :smallbiggrin:

I left Belkar out on purpose, because, as others pointed out, it's likely he feels guilty and simply just thinks he should be dead by now (which makes panel seven all the more sad).

PS: "Will this story have a happy ending?" - "Yes. For you, at least."

The last part of the Oracle's prophecy takes a completely new meaning, now:
Before it was: "You will live happily ever after, but some will be lost along the way (Durkon, Belkar, the Resistance, etc...)."
Now it's: "You'll see a happy ending, but only from your magically confused point of view." :smalleek:

[One Skunk Todd]

It seems odd to me that any of them would imagine Malack as anything other than an evil opponent who needs to be defeated.

[SteveMB]

I don't want to quote the whole passage at you because it's kind of lengthy and it's what people pay for when they get the compilations, but suffice it to say I highly doubt the author was trying to pull some kind of literal-wording-gotcha in the commentary that underlined the rationale behind putting reader's fears to rest with Elan's prophecy.

I don't think it is a prophecy twist, but it occurs to me that Elan might think it was a prophecy twist -- he's not exactly a deep thinker, but that's the sort of story element that would easily occur to a bard.

[Thia]

It seems odd to me that any of them would imagine Malack as anything other than an evil opponent who needs to be defeated.

Their only evidence that he's a vampire is Belkar's word, and it's already been established that the illusion says Belkar was lying.

Considering that, it's basically Durkon's word against Belkar's, and I'm pretty sure none of the Order would believe Belkar over Durkon.

[Ellye]

Considering that, it's basically Durkon's word against Belkar's, and I'm pretty sure none of the Order would believe Belkar over Durkon.V probably would, but V is not there anyway.

[dpkress]

What spell would cause such massive illusion? It has to be epic level.

[Kareasint]

Well, there are a lot of good points made in the forum thread so far.

I believe this is how Roy thinks that the story will end. The strip contains too many elements of Roy acting differently than Elan would consider.

Girard is a masterful spell creator to come up with this trap. It leaves the targets in such a state that it literally could kill them just by leaving them in a state of bliss for so long that the targets simply starve to death. The spell could also being using elements from the other three PC's memories to fill in details for the rest of Roy's dreams.

The panel layout was nicely done. Good work, Giant.

@dpkress: You could create an epic level spell to do just about anything. The Delude Seed would definitely be used to create this type of spell.

[Aquillion]

Uh oh. Did Elan just get his happy ending?Elan got his happy ending over 400 strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html).

[Ellye]

By the way, one thing...

I'm starting to imagine just how much frustrated the Order will be when the illusion is broken.

You know how we feel when we wake up in the middle of a fantastic dream? Well, imagine that feeling, greatly increased, coupled up to you waking up in a terrible, terrible situation, with everything going wrong.

I'm afraid Belkar might indeed be the first one to break out of it, and when he tries to break Roy out of it...

[HandofShadows]

I am official worried about Elan's chances of survival now. :smalleek:

[Poppy Appletree]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but I wonder if the point of this illusion is to make people live out their lives in a fantasy until the point where they die at old age, at which point their bodies die or become braindead because the affected person believes they have died. Of course, Belkar already died, and if this was a shared delusion then Belkar would be have Xs for eyes according to this theory.

[One Step Two]

What scares me about this illusion, isn't just the fact that they are standing motionless for who-knows how long, but the fact that we're being presented with an idealized version of what they* think will happen.
If nothing else it should solidify the fact that we are going to receive a very different set of events when we do meet the end, and they won't be nearly so pleasant.


*This could be a shared illusion by the order, but I'd be betting it's all Roy's. That said, If it is just Roy's. I'd love to see extended illusions for the others in the book :smallbiggrin:

[Chaotic Queen]

I don't know what's cuter. That Haley has an Elan doll among the gold, or that Elan made a girlfriend for Banjo.

[Psyren]

My vote is for shared fantasy. Elan reconciling with Nale and Tarquin, and anything involving puppet love, is definitely coming from Elan's mind rather than Roy's. But the statue of Roy with Julia looking pissed at his recognition is definitely coming from Roy's mind. The resistance victory image is most likely from Haley, especially since Roy isn't there.


What spell would cause such massive illusion? It has to be epic level.

Not in psionics! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) :smallbiggrin:
Though, given their hp totals you actually might be right, technically.

[Kish]

If nothing else it should solidify the fact that we are going to receive a very different set of events when we do meet the end, and they won't be nearly so pleasant.
You needed to be told that Xykon will not be smashed by Roy in a walkover? That Nale and Tarquin are not going to reform? That Thanh and the Resistance are dead? That Durkon really is a vampire?

It doesn't make me sad that Rich isn't bringing the story to an abrupt implausible ending.