Does this mean OOTS won't have a happy ending? [Archive]

Sunken Valley

2013-05-13, 05:15 AM

As the "happy ending" is being show now, by logic this means the actual ending will be different. Does anyone think none of this will happen? I'm not sure, as I can see some of the panels happening (panel 11 in particular).

However I can see some definite deviations.
Roy will not kill Xykon directly.
V will also die.
Azure City will not come back to human control.

ti'esar

2013-05-13, 05:23 AM

I said something along these lines in the main thread, but it's occurred to me that - while it might be based only on what those affected know - this isn't necessarily even the happiest ending possible for OOTS.

Kish

2013-05-13, 05:24 AM

FireDrake

2013-05-13, 05:28 AM

As much as I panicked when I saw the title of the strip, I reasoned it through in my head and I'm pretty sure we can still expect an actual happy ending for Elan

WaXP Commentary Spoilers:
The way Rich talks about Elan's happy ending in the commentary of Book 3 seems to imply that he means the entire story. The prophecy is there to assure us that, while bad things will happen, the story will end happily, based on Elan's definition of happy. (or word's to that effect)It could just be a massive bluff, but I think I trust Rich not to go back on a comment like that. :smallsmile:

Sunken Valley

2013-05-13, 05:30 AM

It is a fair bet that at least most of this will not be how the story's actual ending will go--though I wonder where you get the specific claims you're making.

(And if it doesn't come back to human control, then it's Gobbotopia.)

Guesses. All guesses.

Roy won't kill Xykon in the way depicted last comic because we've already seen it, why would we need to see it again.

V will die because he has nothing to live for, Rich foreshadowed V's permanent death in both the oracle's visions and DSTP. And I can see a "redemption=death" arc for V.

Gobbotopia will remain a nation because Rich has strong views against the mindless persecution of the "savage races". He would want his story to be different by giving the goblins whose names weren't Redcloak a happy ending.

Gift Jeraff

2013-05-13, 05:35 AM

It means OOTS will have a happier ending. Xykon will repent. Nale will be happy about his truce with Elan. Gobbotopia and Azure City will become allies. Bozzok won't put up a fight. The monster in the darkness will reunite with his family as well as O-Chul.

Kish

2013-05-13, 06:28 AM

Rich foreshadowed V's permanent death in both the oracle's visions and DSTP.
Elaborate on the DSTP part?

Deliverance

2013-05-13, 06:32 AM

Happy endings are overrated.

While it is certainly possible to write a good story with a happy ending, there are many other ways to end a story in emotionally satisfying ways.

The use of a happy ending is generally a safe non-controversial choice, but I have enough respect for the Giant's writing abilities to expect something a bit more complex than that after the building up of story arcs over the span of the comic.

What I expect is a fitting ending.

Raineh Daze

2013-05-13, 06:38 AM

Happy endings are overrated.

Bittersweet and tragic endings are also overrated. Depends who you talk to.

elros

2013-05-13, 06:42 AM

I'm wondering if part of Elan's happy ending is a permanent delusion caused by this epic magic. We know Elan has poor mental stats, so it is possible that he will never completely overcome the visions of this magic. A delusional Elan would feel happy, but those who care for him (esp Haley) would be less so because they still perceive reality. Something like that could work, right?

The Pilgrim

2013-05-13, 06:52 AM

The Oracle predicted ["will this story have a happy ending"] "Yes. for you, at least".

Since everyone had a happy ending here (everyone who counts, at least) then this can't possibly be the fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy.

veti

2013-05-13, 07:29 AM

Angel Bob

2013-05-13, 08:02 AM

I sometimes wonder if anyone is reading the same comic as me...

Look, Elan is the central character of the entire story. More so than Roy, even. No matter what becomes of the others, he of all people is not going to die, nor become a brain-dead vegetable, nor turn evil, nor give up the quest.

It follows that this isn't the end of anything, except a very dark story arc.

I have to disagree with you there. Even if Elan's had character growth, learned new tricks, acquired a roster of nemeses, and dealt with several subplots on his own, he is not the main character. The central conflict in The Order of the Stick has always been and will always be Roy's quest to destroy Xykon. Countless character motivations, subplots, secrets, and mysteries have complicated this conflict exponentially, but that doesn't change the focus of the story.

Sunken Valley

2013-05-13, 08:24 AM

Elaborate on the DSTP part?

Made a mistake. I thought DSTP said in the comments the Kubota's death was both part of V's fall from grace and Elan realising that not all is friends will have a happy ending. It does not. Apologies.

pendell

2013-05-13, 09:41 AM

So is this the fulfillment of the Oracle's promise to Elan that he would have a happy ending? He dies in this delusion, and since he died in the middle of an illusion of a happy ending, he DID have a happy ending?

Hrm. .. that would be an extremely ironic and postmodern way for this strip to end (not to mention, depressing and heartbreaking). Since the trip is written by a man named Burlew not Jean-Paul Sartre, I doubt it will happen :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

King of Nowhere

2013-05-13, 09:43 AM

I thought that maybe this could be the happy ending the oracle was talking about. so, the story had an happy ending, now xykon can conquer the world.
Don't think it will happen.

The Oracle predicted ["will this story have a happy ending"] "Yes. for you, at least".

Since everyone had a happy ending here (everyone who counts, at least) then this can't possibly be the fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy.

No, the oracle did not say that the story will not have an happy endiong for people different than elan. he only said that elan will have an happy ending. it says nothing of other people.

Happy endings are overrated.

While it is certainly possible to write a good story with a happy ending, there are many other ways to end a story in emotionally satisfying ways.

Personally, in a story I come to feel for the characters, so I enjoy seeing them safe and happy in the end. A downer ending is emo stuff in my book.
However, a totally happy ending also feels cheap, so there must be some twist in it that make it less than obvious. And of course it must be fitting. IIf it is fitting enough, I can enjoy a less than happy ending. For example, I greatly appreciated the end of the mistborn trilogy, even if it entails death for three quaters of the main cast and some 99% of the world population.

onionbreath

2013-05-13, 10:05 AM

No, the oracle did not say that the story will not have an happy endiong for people different than elan. he only said that elan will have an happy ending. it says nothing of other people.

I am pretty sure Elan already had his "happy ending" :smalltongue:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0752.html

Forikroder

2013-05-13, 10:08 AM

thats a pretty huge logic leap. jsut because there being shown a happy ending doesnt mean the story wont end with one

Coat

2013-05-13, 11:23 AM

Elan doesn't ask if the story will end happily. He asks:

:elan: "Will this story have a happy ending?"
Oracle: "Yes - for you at least"

For Roy, Elan, Haley and maybe Belkar, the story now contains a happy ending, even though the story has not ended. So if you read 'have' to mean 'hold', 'contain', rather than the 'terminate with' that is implied, the prophecy is now literally fulfilled.

While I don't personally believe that the Giant is going to give us a downer ending - and 887 gives us no evidence that he will - I think this comic does put the possibility on the table. Which heightens tension. At a time when everything is already very bleak, and with some major confrontations on their way. So I suspect this is not accidental.

Haven't got War & XPs myself, so can't comment on what is in it. But it wouldn't be unknown for the Giant to give owners of the books a slightly different perspective than the core material, so I'm not sure there is a direct conflict.

Deliverance

2013-05-13, 12:01 PM

Personally, in a story I come to feel for the characters, so I enjoy seeing them safe and happy in the end. A downer ending is emo stuff in my book.

However, a totally happy ending also feels cheap, so there must be some twist in it that make it less than obvious. And of course it must be fitting. IIf it is fitting enough, I can enjoy a less than happy ending. For example, I greatly appreciated the end of the mistborn trilogy, even if it entails death for three quaters of the main cast and some 99% of the world population.
Exactly. A fitting ending - one that doesn't feel forced but does satisfy the reader that the narrative arcs have come to an acceptable conclusion within context, and has done so while fitting the general style and themes of the story.

I don't object to happy endings per se - I do object to how they are frequently expected by consumers as how all or most works should end, regardless of how appropriate it is to the overall arc of the story.

In this case, given that some of the main arcs of the Giant's story have focused on morality, intent, the actions you take, and the importance of the consequences of your actions regardless of intent, a happy ending where everything turns out for the best for all the protagonists would be most inappropriate.

As shown in e.g. 464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) (Soon to Miko) and Roy's talk with the Deva (488 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html) to 491 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html))

(And likewise, the Mistborn trilogi's ending, which would in other works have been a downer ending, fit the trilogi perfectly. Starting with the first volume, "The Final Empire", and progressing through the book, the overall themes of a) the old having to make place for the new in a violent rebirth and b) nothing lasting obtained without sacrifice, was clearly signaled and the books featured a neat number of subplots fitting the same general theme.)

Spleen_

2013-05-14, 12:08 PM

I sometimes wonder if anyone is reading the same comic as me...

Look, Elan is the central character of the entire story. More so than Roy, even. No matter what becomes of the others, he of all people is not going to die, nor become a brain-dead vegetable, nor turn evil, nor give up the quest.

It follows that this isn't the end of anything, except a very dark story arc.

Close, but I do believe Roy is actually the main character.

Elan is the narrator, and the narrator has to stay alive-ish and lucid (as lucid as Elan's ever going to be, anyway) all the way to the bitter end - and perhaps even the epilogue.

Copperdragon

2013-05-14, 12:13 PM

As the "happy ending" is being show now, by logic this means the actual ending will be different. Does anyone think none of this will happen? I'm not sure, as I can see some of the panels happening (panel 11 in particular).

You're overthinking it.

But yes, there will be an ending that is not "All Happy Fluffy Land". Roy's Illusion in regard to "everyone is happy" is totally over the top.

It also means not all characters shows there are going to survive. We're seing Roy's Dreamland which won't come true, but beyond that, we really are not smarter than before.

AlexG

2013-05-14, 02:09 PM

Porthos

2013-05-14, 02:50 PM

Once again, it's not Elan having a happy ending (or even a happy moment), but the story, as Elan would consider it.

Being trapped for all eternity in a soul gem isn't very satisfying from a Bardic perspective. :smalltongue:

As for the narrative purpose of this strip (and title), the more I think about it, the more I think it is to interject an element of doubt. That is, even with prior commentary Rich is trying to raise the specter of, "Well maybe things aren't quite as certain as I might have led you to believe. You'll just have to wait and see." Or perhaps it is setting Elan up to doubt his future, which opens up potentially interesting storylines.

Either way works, IMO.

As does a couple panel layout of the following:

:elan:: Oh no, does this mean I've already had my happy ending. Roy! What do I do now?!? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

:roy:: What? Don't be ridiculous. Not even the Oracle is that big of a jackass.

:elan:: Oh. OK, you're probably right. I was really worried for a moment there.

:belkar:: Actually...

*Haley quickly muffles Belkar before he can say anything else*

After all, Rich isn't above subverting a potential plotline for a cheap gag. :smalltongue:

Now that being said do I this this is the prophesized Happy Ending. Not for a second. :smalltongue: Only under the MOST literal possible reading of the Oracle's pronouncement (have meaning contain) could it possibly work. And I really really really doubt that Rich is headed in that direction.

ChowGuy

2013-05-14, 03:30 PM

So is this the fulfillment of the Oracle's promise to Elan that he would have a happy ending?
It only makes sense to say that if what we're currently seeing is Elan's view only, rather then Roy's and/or a shared view. In that case, the story "has a happy ending - for him" in the sense that a "happy ending" does occur within the narrative as he sees it.

That it is his view/dream/delusion however remains to be established, and unless and until the Giant does so, we cannot say that this is the specific "happy ending" the Oracle referred to.

veti

2013-05-14, 04:10 PM

:roy:: What? Don't be ridiculous. Not even the Oracle is that big of a jackass.

I prefer to think that Rich isn't that big of a jackass.

"Subverting expectations" is one thing, but a bait-and-switch of the level that's being posited here - stretching over more than five years - is something else entirely, and goes way beyond what anyone but a sociopath of Belkarian proportions would consider reasonable.

Zmeoaice

2013-05-14, 11:17 PM

Gobbotopia will remain a nation because Rich has strong views against the mindless persecution of the "savage races". He would want his story to be different by giving the goblins whose names weren't Redcloak a happy ending.

Yeah, but I'm willing to bet he also has strong views against slaughtering and conquering a nation. I'm willing to bet the Azurites and Goblins will get along though.

Scrynor

2013-05-15, 07:39 AM

This can't be the prophecy. Elan asked about the ending of "this story" not about his specific ending. "This story" isn't over. Team Evil, Linear Guild, and 2 Gates are all still out there. This can't represent the ending of the story because the story isn't over so it can't be the prophecy.

Even if you argue the illusion shows all the way to the end of "this story" it is still just something inside Elan's head and not the actual story that his question asked about. Then again... if you interpret the "for you, at least" as the Oracle twisting his answer into Elan's perception of the story you might have an argument but that seems pretty sketchy. Given Oracles and prophecies are kind of known for sketchy interpretation but seeing as we did a whole strip about sketchy interpretations and this Oracle's not being like that (Belkar's first prophecy) I am going to go against that interpretation...

Shred-Bot

2013-05-15, 08:26 AM

I don't know. I feel if Elan and Haley were soul bound into the same gem for eternity by Xykon, I think he would count it as happy.

I think Elan would still consider that a sad ending, though not unbearable (and certainly better that being trapped alone). Now, if the gem also had trapped Roy, a reconciled Tarquin and Elan's Mom, at least 2 puppies, and a dinosaur he could ride whenever he wanted...

screwtape

2013-05-15, 01:29 PM

Does anyone think none of this will happen? ...

Roy will not kill Xykon directly.
V will also die.
Azure City will not come back to human control.

I think none of those will happen. That is, I think...
Roy will kill Xykon (and maybe even Redcloak)
V will live (and will probably spend his/her days repenting the Familicide)
Azure City will be retaken by humans.

I think there will be happy endings for some characters. Look at their predecessors - Girard, Dorukon, etc. Some of them had a happy ending after their adventure containing the snarl. Others did not.

We know from the Oracle that at least Elan will. Which I think means Haley will too.

Popertop

2013-05-15, 01:45 PM

I trust Rich that he will leave a satisfying, thought-provoking ending for us all to enjoy.

Barsoom

2013-05-15, 01:52 PM

:roy:: What? Don't be ridiculous. Not even the Oracle is that big of a jackass.Actually, given that the Oracle founded a whole town with the sole goal of triggering Belkar's Mark of Justice, I would say that, yes, he is that big of a jackass.

exenia

2013-05-15, 01:54 PM

Hmm. Given some of the setup, I'm betting on either Redcloak or Xykon being killed by the other, the stakes between them are dangerously high. They're part of 'this story' too, and treachery escalating to murder definitely wouldn't count as a happy ending.

For OotS, I think most of the party will be make it out ok in the end. Not everyone, but most.

Zmeoaice

2013-05-15, 02:13 PM

Actually, given that the Oracle founded a whole town with the sole goal of triggering Belkar's Mark of Justice, I would say that, yes, he is that big of a jackass.

Belkar is a violent psychopath who is racist against Kobolds. He honestly had it coming. If someone was going to stab you, would you just let them go?

sam79

2013-05-15, 02:24 PM

In answer ot the original thread question:

No. I just won't have THIS happy ending.

As for OP's psecifc predictions; I too tend to think Gobblotopia will remain in Goblin hands. I'm fifty-fifty on V dying; the author played the aborted redemption angle with Miko, so he might give his elf the chance to redeem herself and find some sort of forgiveness. But then again, that redemption could still result in her death.

As for Roy and Xykon...well, before 886, I'd thought it likely that Roy would finish the Lich with his ancestral blade and Grandpa Greenhilt's Special Move O' Death. Not so sure now, but if I was to bet on which individual would finish the Big X, I'd be pushing my chips towards Sir Greenhilt.

All these things could still be compatible with what Elan would call a 'happy ending', which is the standard we should judge these hypotheses by.

Actually, given that the Oracle founded a whole town with the sole goal of triggering Belkar's Mark of Justice, I would say that, yes, he is that big of a jackass.

Sure, jackass. But what an awesome jackass. I love that kobold.

J0ebot

2013-05-15, 02:41 PM

This is relevant here, but I didn't feel like retyping it

Because of Rich's commentary on Elan's prophecy, I think it's safe to say that this isn't really the fulfillment of the prophecy and that Elan will still get a happy ending at the very end of the comic.

That being said, I think that after waking up from this hallucination Elan will think that maybe this is what the Oracle meant, and will start to worry about the future of the Order. I think this could be an interesting little twist in Elan's personality, as his optimism is hurt and he begins to wonder if things will really turn out well.

A few comics ago I made a post about how most of the Order has faced their greatest fears in this temple (Vaarsuvius seeing the full effects of true power, Durkon being turned away from Thor, Roy losing his best friend, Belkar dealing with guilt, and maybe even Mr. Scruffy's fear of the Hell Hound). This could be Elan's greatest fear: realizing that in the end, things might not be as great for everyone as he hopes.

Fish

2013-05-15, 04:04 PM

Or perhaps it is setting Elan up to doubt his future, which opens up potentially interesting storylines.
This.

The various answers to this question are:

1. Yes. Yes, this is the happiest that the Order will ever be again. Get your tissues, because it's bad news from here on out. Rich plans to destroy his characters' happiness. Xykon wins and is betrayed by Redcloak. The Dark One destroys the world. The end.

2. No. This does not qualify as a happy ending because it is not the end.

3. This is a way to make Elan and the others believe all is lost, that this is the end of hope, that anyone can die from this point forward. Rich has rebelled against the transient revolving-door nature of death in the D&D world. We saw how difficult he made Roy's return; we saw him deliberately eschew raising Shojo, and Miko; we saw Redcloak dispose of Tsukiko beyond resurrection. I could name others: Therkla, Kubota, Lirian, Dorukan. In a world where death can be reversed so easily, what drama is there? Rich is trying to tell the characters, perhaps more than us, all bets are off, and nobody is safe... so the characters behave differently.