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2013-05-13, 05:38 AM
The Real Alignments Handbook
From Theory to Practical Application


Author's Note: While some information on this thread is unique to this corner of the internet, I am no longer updating it. I am however (at time of writing anyway) still updating the Real Alignments page of my Obsidian Portal campaign's site (https://hyperion-voyages.obsidianportal.com/wikis/real-alignments (http://hyperion-voyages.obsidianportal.com/wikis/real-alignments)). If you have something new to say about it, please create a new thread about it (within the limits of the forum rules, which may forbid you from doing so outright) and link to that URL and link to this thread to help prevent people from re-hashing the same arguments.





Foreword

This is a REWRITE essentially of the alignment system using the concept of "Real Alignments" (http://easydamus.com/alignmentreal.html), not really an "addendum", so treat it as such and try to give it a fresh slate. I welcome suggestions for the "core values" lists for the various aspects (particularly Stimulation and Hedonism, which have very short core value lists). Please, for everyone's sake, try to not let this thread become a mire of bickering. Ask questions. Assess and challenge your assumptions. You might surprise yourself with what you learn as a result.

Real Alignments?

In the interest of making alignment conflicts easier to resolve and in the interest of making more interesting NPCs and villains, I insist in my games that players when choosing an alignment follow a “real” alignment (potentially including the choice of a half-step). These “real” alignments give clearer motivations to follow when a character is making a decision guided by their alignment. (You don’t have to read the article linked above to play, but it might help you in some respects.)


http://easydamus.com/Composite2.bmp
In short, the real alignments (Keyword: "paths") and what they value most (Keyword: "aspects" ) are:

Path of Integrity (Lawful Good): Conformity/Tradition and Benevolence
Path of Mercy (Neutral Good): Benevolence and Universalism
Path of Liberty (Chaotic Good): Universalism and Self-Direction
Path of Autonomy (Chaotic Neutral): Self-Direction and Stimulation
Path of Luxury (Chaotic Evil): Hedonism
Path of Supremacy (Neutral Evil): Achievement and Power
Path of Ascendency (Lawful Evil): Power and Security
Path of Harmony (Lawful Neutral): Security and Conformity/Tradition
Path of Equity (True Neutral): (any values)


General Behavior

It’s not “what you’re doing” so much as “why you’re doing it”.

An act only “bends your alignment” “when the chips are down”. A “Lawful Good” character can value hedonism fine in-general in their daily activities without “bending their alignment”. However, “when the chips are down” (for example, such as when lives are on the line) he’d be bending his alignment if he willingly does something that’s not inherently part of his alignment (such as forgoing his core values for a night of passion).

That said, alignment only dictates how a character generally acts normally by default (such as when the player isn’t running their character right then). As stated above, all alignments value all aspects in varying degrees in their daily lives. So far as limits “when the chips are down”, any character that is not a paladin and not on The Path of Equity can feel free to temporarily “bend” their alignment up to a whole step (two half-steps) in one direction or another in the alignment continuum described (that is, act primarily in the interests of a neighboring alignment’s aspects) without immediate mechanical alignment consequences (although there may still be long-term mechanical consequences, see below). The Path of Luxury and all half-step alignments on this continuum (that is, the alignments that are entirely associated with one particular aspect) are considered within a half-step of The Path of Equity, but someone that is not on The Path of Equity cannot willingly bend their alignment to The Path of Equity (or bend beyond The Path of Equity to any other aspect) without immediate mechanical consequences.

The Path of Equity is not considered a “half-step” alignment. A character on The Path of Equity can bend their alignment as above, but only to The Path of Luxury or a half-step alignment (basically, to only one aspect at a time).

Alignment Descriptor Effects


"Most spellcasters aren’t prevented from casting spells with the Evil descriptor, nor do they suffer any penalty or ill effect for doing so. Only certain classes have restrictions or ramifications involved with using spells with an alignment descriptor, and those are clearly spelled out in the class descriptions."
Spells with alignment descriptors only have those descriptors so that they interact with certain class features and other effects that specifically refer to those kinds of spells. Alignment-based spell descriptors otherwise have no alignment-affecting repercussions on the spellcaster. For example, a dread necromancer could use spells with the [evil] descriptor all day long without inherently risking becoming “evil” himself. Furthermore, completely disregard that “evil spells” are listed as an evil act in Fiendish Codex II (page 30) and the Eberron Campaign Setting (page 35), as those sources presume evil as a caricature (and thus are counterproductive to Real Alignments).

Prerequisites

For the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of gaining an ability (such as a feat) or being a valid target for an effect, a character with a half-step alignment takes up to a half-step away on the alignment continuum described in both directions. For example, if you are “NG(L)” (i.e. “Neutral Good but with Lawful tendencies”), you count as both Lawful Good and Neutral Good for the purposes of qualifying for being a “standard” paladin. This rule only applies for when you’re gaining or maintaining the ability, not when you’re actually using the ability (for actual use of abilities, see the "Half-Step Mechanical Effects" section below).

Detection

“Detect [alignment]” spells gain an additional effect the more you concentrate on an area. Creatures with half-step alignments on the edge of the detected alignment (so for evil, the “LN(E)” and “CN(E)” alignments) have a “flickering” aura (of the same strength as usual), but otherwise are still fully affected by the spell.

Append the following to the “Detect Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm)” spell (similar effects get in-kind):
4th Round: You learn the dominant personality aspect(s) (by specific alignment) of every evil creature in the affected area.

5th Round: You learn the next-dominant personality aspects of the closest evil creature in the affected area (pick one if more than one is closest, and reset to this step or earlier as appropriate if a different creature is chosen). “Next-dominant” means the personality aspects of the adjacent whole-step alignments, which likely are important to the target creature.

6th Round and every round thereafter: You learn one new useful piece of generic information about the motivations of the closest evil creature in the affected area (pick one if more than one is closest, and reset to this step or earlier as appropriate if a different creature is chosen). “Generic” means the texts of the associated values they value most.

Consequences

If a player consistently “bends their alignment” in one particular direction, the consequence is moving a half-step on the alignment continuum described (appropriate to how they are acting). If this half-step results in an alignment which would normally cause permanent consequences by RAW so far as their abilities are concerned, then those consequences happen as normal.

To change your alignment away from The Path of Equity, a character must whenever possible consistently act in favor of a specific aspect “when the chips are down”.

For the purposes of effects such as a standard paladin becoming an ex-paladin:

“Willfully committing an evil act” means having an inherently-evil motive (that is, having a motive associated with an “evil” aspect) “when the chips are down”.
The paladin should consider their moral code as more literal than it would normally be interpreted. A “gross” violation of the paladin’s code of conduct is up to the GM’s discretion. For example, “white lies” and bluffing in combat probably aren’t a gross violation of a standard paladin’s code of conduct. See the “Codes of Conduct” section below for a summary of the various codes of conduct.
“Evil” characters do not exist as stereotypical “evil” caricatures, so associating with an “evil”-aligned character does not inherently cause a paladin to fall. That said, if the paladin knows that one of their associates has committed an evil act (as described above) or consistently violates the paladin’s moral code, that still qualifies for the purposes of removing association with that character. However, the paladin can still travel with the character to the extent that roleplaying allows (typically by treating their attitude towards the character as “unfriendly” or worse, which does not necessarily extend to that character’s allies). No circumstance described here would cause a paladin to fall, although such a paladin would be wise to periodically seek out an atonement spell for skirting the fine line.


Codes of Conduct

The following is a collection of the various paladin-like codes of conduct (for paladins and paladin variants). The red words in this subsection indicate what actually causes the character to "fall". Some would imply that violating any part of their code of conduct causes them to fall, but believing so is untenable in-practice. It's much more reasonable that violating the lesser aspects of their code of conduct causes mostly social repercussions if discovered (such as temporarily being forbidden access to certain... church resources until mundane restitution is made).

Some Potentially-Enlightening Links:

No More Overzealous Paladins (http://www.paperspencils.com/2011/12/07/no-more-overzealous-paladins/)
A Paladin’s Fall (http://www.paperspencils.com/2012/03/12/a-paladins-fall/)
The Paladin’s Oath, and GM Clarity (http://www.paperspencils.com/2012/03/14/the-paladins-oath-and-gm-clarity/)


Orthodox Codes of ConductPaladins [of Honor] (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm); Lawful Good a.k.a. “Path of Integrity”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act. She respects legitimate authority, acts with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), helps those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punishes those who harm or threaten innocents.

Paladins of Freedom (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny); Chaotic Good a.k.a. “Path of Liberty”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act. He respects individual liberty, helps those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punishes those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

Paladins of Tyranny (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny); Lawful Evil a.k.a. “Path of Ascendency”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a good act. He respects authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, acts with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), helps only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punishes those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

Paladins of Slaughter (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny); Chaotic Evil a.k.a. “Path of Luxury”) loses all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a good act. She disrespects all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuses help to those in need, and sows destruction and death at all opportunities.Unorthodox Codes of ConductSentinels (Dragon Magazine #310 page 50; Neutral Good a.k.a. “Path of Mercy”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act. Sentinels are most at home in the wilderness of the Material Plane. He only journeys into cities when absolutely necessary, and he avoids travel to other planes except in the most dire need, since his vows require him to battle evil on his home plane. These vows call for him to protect the natural order of the Material Plane from becoming influenced or tainted by the forces of the evil Outer Planes. Additionally, the sentinel is honor-bound to provide assistance to any non-outsider who becomes lost or endangered while in the wilderness, as long as the victim in need honors the sanctity of the wilderness.

Avengers (Dragon Magazine #310 page 49; Chaotic Good a.k.a. “Path of Liberty”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act or willingly ally with a lawful government or affiliated agency. While the avenger’s life is based around achieving vengeance and retribution for the oppressed and downtrodden, she must temper this vengeance appropriately. Killing should be the last resort of the avenger when a more appropriate and less destructive form of vengeance will do, and even then, slaying an oppressor should be reserved only for the most evil villains. Avengers must aid and assist anyone who asks for help (within reason) and must not join any organized association, order, or group. She may attend the services of her church but is encouraged to worship in private.

Anarchs (Dragon Magazine #310 page 47; Chaotic Neutral a.k.a. “Path of Autonomy”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a blatantly lawful act (such as abiding by an oath, fulfilling a contract, or joining an organization such as a brotherhood or fellowship). Aside from this, an anarch’s code is little more than a lack of a code. As long as he continues to cause chaos and foment disrespect for law in others, his status as an anarch is secure. (NOTE: An adventuring party is hardly an organization on the level of a "brotherhood" or "fellowship", despite what Tolkien would have you believe. That said, as soon as the party would become some kind of official entity however, an anarch would leave the party.)

Anti-Paladins (Dragon Magazine #312 page 20; Chaotic Evil a.k.a. “Path of Luxury”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a good act. He must work at all times to undermine the works of civilization and good peoples, and must never offer mercy or grant quarter unless he betrays his word in the next hour. He cannot join an organization, but he can perform services for others as long as the services are for pay and ultimately lead to chaos and devastation.

Corrupters (Dragon Magazine #312 page 24; Neutral Evil a.k.a. “Path of Supremacy”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a good act or an act that exposes their faith to an opposing religion and results in their detriment. He must strive to corrupt and taint all faiths apart from his own, with a special focus on good faiths. He is allowed to make whatever vows or declarations are required in order to maintain this deception, as long as he spends at least an hour each day in private prayer to his deity. He must strive to remain hidden, although the methods by which he undermines other faiths are left to his own discretion.

Despots (Dragon Magazine #312 page 23; Lawful Evil a.k.a. “Path of Ascendency”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a chaotic act (such as breaking a vow or contract or betraying an ally). She must at all times work to expand and grow her domain, either by virtue of the Leadership feat or by strong-arming those less fortunate and powerful than herself. She is allowed to abuse her sovereignty in any way she sees fit to further her own personal strength and glory, but she must protect and defend her subjects and allies from harm from other forces. Likewise, she must not overburden her subjects so that they cannot support her.

Enforcers (Dragon Magazine #310 page 53; Lawful Neutral a.k.a. “Path of Harmony”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a chaotic act (such as breaking a vow or contract or betraying an ally). Unlike other holy warriors, enforcers are bound to the will of two beings. Their primary liege remains their divine patron, but they must also serve the will of their worldly liege. The enforcer’s patron deity and his liege’s patron deity must be the same. If an enforcer believes his liege is not acting in the best interests of his deity, he is permitted to act against his liege as long as he can expose his liege’s heresy within 24 hours. An enforcer is not allowed to accept a position of leadership that would place him in a position where he would not have a liege above him in the rank of command, except in the case of an emergency (and even then, for no more than 24 hours). The enforcer must uphold and enforce the laws of the church and land at all times, even when the laws would prevent him from fully accomplishing a desired personal goal.

Incarnates (Dragon Magazine #310 page 52; True Neutral a.k.a. “Path of Equity”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an act that endangers the natural balance of the world. The incarnate is most at home in the wilderness, but she does not take any special vows to avoid city life. She avoids travel to other planes (with the exception of the Elemental Planes to which she has an affinity) except in the most dire need. The incarnate prefers to arrive at peaceful solutions but is fully capable of using force against unwanted intrusions into this realm from beyond.
Lost Alignment Mechanical Effects

Generally, no longer having a requisite alignment results in temporarily losing access to activated abilities, spells, powers, etc. that require that alignment until the alignment is restored. Special consequences for changing alignment happen as normal. The use of the base attack bonus, saves, proficiencies, skills, and “not an action” abilities of a class (or prestige class) that had a particular alignment as a prerequisite are never affected. If a class has specific consequences upon changing alignment, they occur as normal.

Half-Step Mechanical Effects

What being in a half-step alignment means in fluff is that your tendencies “lean” towards the indicated extreme. Mechanically, this means that there is a percentage chance that abilities that depend on a particular alignment will fail. This roll is made before you attempt the ability, but does not waste the action (or other costs) if the roll fails. All failure means is that you cannot use that ability right then and cannot attempt to use that ability again until the beginning of your next turn (thus, although socially-embarrassing, out of combat you can repeatedly try until successful). For example, a “NG(L)” character has a base 50% chance that a “Lawful Good Only” ability will function normally for that attempt (or otherwise fail). The use of the base attack bonus, saves, proficiencies, skills, and "not an action" abilities of a class (or prestige class) that had a particular alignment as a prerequisite are never affected by this failure-chance.

For example, if something requires a “Lawful Good” alignment, the base chance of success is defined by the list below:

“Lawful Good” alignment = 100% (auto-success)
NG(L) or LN(G) = 50%
Any other alignment = 0% (auto-failure)


You can augment this percentage (and the GM can penalize this percentage) up to 10% (at the GM’s discretion, as it’s “up to” 10%) for every circumstance you bring up in the prerequisite alignment’s favor. The GM is obligated to tell you how much of a bonus you get on the d% for each circumstance you bring up. However, the GM is not obligated to tell you what his own penalty circumstances are or how much those penalties will be for the d% until after you’ve permanently finished making your case for all the bonuses you want (essentially you’ve “locked them in” regardless of what the GM then says are your penalties). Of course, the player or other players could choose to bring up circumstances which instead provide (at the GM’s discretion) a penalty (or the GM could bring up circumstances that give you a bonus), but this is unlikely to happen.

If an ability requires only one component of an alignment, the failure-chance effect described above instead happens 50% of the time if you’re a half-step away from a qualifying standard alignment and fails automatically if you’re a wholly non-qualifying standard alignment. This d% can gain bonuses or penalties as described above.

For example, if something requires a “Good” alignment, the base chance of success is defined by the list below:

Any “Good” alignment = 100% (auto-success)
LN(G) or CN(G) = 50%
Any other alignment = 0% (auto-failure)


Once the d% DC is determined by the GM, the player rolls their d% for success (the desired roll is the DC % or lower).

Conclusions

I've personally had a lot of success with this real alignments implementation in-practice. In short, the end results were:

Paladins and the individual deities now follow their fluff in a realistic way such that they act as a true paragon of their alignment while still accomplishing their real goals. This simultaneously results in the near-elimination of "lawful stupid chaotic stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid)" gods as implied in "The Pact Primeval (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/lords-of-darkness/wikis/the-pact-primeval)" (Fiendish Codex II page 4).
While the gods are paragons of "right" and "wrong" et al, people now are treated mechanically as though they don't have to be "perfect" to still be "heroic". The gods decide what's ultimately right and wrong, but they understand and are lenient when for all your character knows he was "doing the right thing" from the character's limited perspective.
It becomes very easy to make viable "evil"-aligned characters that can work within a "good" group. For example, when Belkar in the comic started "playing the game" by focusing more on evil motives instead of necessarily-"evil" actions, he gained more depth and became more and more tolerable in the eyes of the rest of the party (at least, that was my take on that character arc, you're free to feel otherwise).
It conversely becomes very easy to make "good"-aligned villains because they no longer have to be hamstrung by their acts and instead you as storyteller are less stressed because you can focus more on their motives.
"Detect" spells and other effects that affect alignment finally mechanically become what they probably should be regarded as: thought policing. The paladin that consistently "detects evil first round and smites evil the second" now has all the repercussions you'd expect if that kind of thing were to happen in reality.
Creature alignment entries such as "Always evil", "Usually evil", etc. instantly become a very real practical guide as to what kinds of motives a creature would likely follow when roleplayed (assuming the players don't just kill it as soon as they see it). This allows you an instant jump-off point for building a creature's background if you have to do so very quickly. For example "Always evil" now isn't 3 specific alignments, but 5~7 path options.
Committing a traditional "evil act" far more often now results in in-universe social consequences first-and-foremost, such as being arrested. Personally, I feel this is as it should be.
Chaotic Neutral is no longer a "I can do whatever the hell I like just because I wanna, so f*** you GM!" alignment. That kind of mindset in the real world would be borderline-insane, and so it should be relegated to something realistically closer to that perspective... True Neutral (...because True Neutral values nothing more-so than anything else, just their continued survival. Funny how animals usually have that alignment, hm?). Interestingly, the Path of Luxury is the only path that someone on the Path of Equity can directly bend towards (because the Path of Luxury is wholly within the Hedonism aspect).
Prestige Classes now contain a lot more importance in the player's mind than they do with traditional alignments. For example, now the reason the Assassin prestige class requires an evil alignment is because you have to have a particular kind of mindset. It's a "prestige" class and thus it should be "prestigious" to be in it. So many players treat prestige classes as essentially just-another-class when it probably should mean more than that (you're welcome to disagree, of course).


Alignment Summaries

(NOTE: This final section of the handbook is optional reading. I do not expect you to read this section in its entirety before posting a reply.)

This section is to be used primarily as a brainstorming aid. That said, these summaries could and probably should be used as a guideline for determining whether you’re acting within the acceptable limits afforded to bend your alignment as described above.

Path of Integrity (Lawful Good)
Most values... Conformity/Tradition and Benevolence

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, examine the table below of the motivations most commonly associated with the aspects of the Path of Integrity. Then, pick at least one item (Keyword: "value") from each of the two categories below. These chosen items are the motivations that are equally the most important to you and they likely interact with eachother. If desired, feel free to pick a motivation that’s unlisted but fits a particular category’s description.



ASPECT
Conformity/Tradition
Benevolence


MEANING
Restraint of actions, inclinations, and impulses likely to upset or harm others and violate social expectations or norms. Also respect, commitment, and acceptance of the customs and ideas that traditional culture or religion provide the self.
Preserving and enhancing the welfare of those with whom one is in frequent personal contact (the "in-group").


CORE VALUES



being obedient
having self-discipline
being polite
honoring parents and elders
respecting tradition
being devout
accepting one's own portion in life
being humble
taking life in moderation





being helpful
being responsible
being forgiving
being honest
being loyal
having mature love for others and true friendships





This next table represents the aspects and associated values next most common to the Path of Integrity after the motivations listed above. This table can be used as additional inspiration for how your character's motivations may interact with eachother.



ASPECT
Security
Universalism


MEANING
Safety, harmony, and stability of society, of relationships, and of self.
Understanding, appreciation, tolerance, and protection for the welfare of all people and for nature.


CORE VALUES



ensuring national security
reciprocation of favors
ensuring family security
having a sense of belonging
preserving the social order
being healthy and clean





advancing equality
being one with nature
having wisdom
filling the world with beauty
advancing social justice
being broad-minded
protecting the environment
seeing the world at peace





Path of Mercy (Neutral Good)
Most values... Benevolence and Universalism

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, examine the table below of the motivations most commonly associated with the aspects of the Path of Mercy. Then, pick at least one item (Keyword: "value") from each of the two categories below. These chosen items are the motivations that are equally the most important to you and they likely interact with eachother. If desired, feel free to pick a motivation that’s unlisted but fits a particular category’s description.



ASPECT
Benevolence
Universalism


MEANING
Preserving and enhancing the welfare of those with whom one is in frequent personal contact (the "in-group").
Understanding, appreciation, tolerance, and protection for the welfare of all people and for nature.


CORE VALUES



being helpful
being responsible
being forgiving
being honest
being loyal
having mature love for others and true friendships





advancing equality
being one with nature
having wisdom
filling the world with beauty
advancing social justice
being broad-minded
protecting the environment
seeing the world at peace





This next table represents the aspects and associated values next most common to the Path of Mercy after the motivations listed above. This table can be used as additional inspiration for how your character's motivations may interact with eachother.



ASPECT
Conformity/Tradition
Self-Direction


MEANING
Restraint of actions, inclinations, and impulses likely to upset or harm others and violate social expectations or norms. Also respect, commitment, and acceptance of the customs and ideas that traditional culture or religion provide the self.
Independent thought and action; choosing, creating, exploring.


CORE VALUES



being obedient
having self-discipline
being polite
honoring parents and elders
respecting tradition
being devout
accepting one's own portion in life
being humble
taking life in moderation





freedom
creativity
independence
choosing one's own goals
being curious
having self-respect





Path of Liberty (Chaotic Good)
Most values... Universalism and Self-Direction

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, examine the table below of the motivations most commonly associated with the aspects of the Path of Liberty. Then, pick at least one item (Keyword: "value") from each of the two categories below. These chosen items are the motivations that are equally the most important to you and they likely interact with eachother. If desired, feel free to pick a motivation that’s unlisted but fits a particular category’s description.



ASPECT
Universalism
Self-Direction


MEANING
Understanding, appreciation, tolerance, and protection for the welfare of all people and for nature.
Independent thought and action; choosing, creating, exploring.


CORE VALUES



advancing equality
being one with nature
having wisdom
filling the world with beauty
advancing social justice
being broad-minded
protecting the environment
seeing the world at peace





freedom
creativity
independence
choosing one's own goals
being curious
having self-respect





This next table represents the aspects and associated values next most common to the Path of Liberty after the motivations listed above. This table can be used as additional inspiration for how your character's motivations may interact with eachother.



ASPECT
Benevolence
Stimulation


MEANING
Preserving and enhancing the welfare of those with whom one is in frequent personal contact (the "in-group").
Excitement, novelty, and challenge in life.


CORE VALUES



being helpful
being responsible
being forgiving
being honest
being loyal
having mature love for others and true friendships





having an exciting and varied life
being daring





Path of Autonomy (Chaotic Neutral)
Most values... Self-Direction and Stimulation

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, examine the table below of the motivations most commonly associated with the aspects of the Path of Autonomy. Then, pick at least one item (Keyword: "value") from each of the two categories below. These chosen items are the motivations that are equally the most important to you and they likely interact with eachother. If desired, feel free to pick a motivation that’s unlisted but fits a particular category’s description.



ASPECT
Self-Direction
Stimulation


MEANING
Independent thought and action; choosing, creating, exploring.
Excitement, novelty, and challenge in life.


CORE VALUES



freedom
creativity
independence
choosing one's own goals
being curious
having self-respect





having an exciting and varied life
being daring





This next table represents the aspects and associated values next most common to the Path of Autonomy after the motivations listed above. This table can be used as additional inspiration for how your character's motivations may interact with eachother.



ASPECT
Universalism
Hedonism


MEANING
Understanding, appreciation, tolerance, and protection for the welfare of all people and for nature.
Pleasure and sensuous gratification for oneself.


CORE VALUES



advancing equality
being one with nature
having wisdom
filling the world with beauty
advancing social justice
being broad-minded
protecting the environment
seeing the world at peace





experiencing pleasure
enjoying life





Path of Luxury (Chaotic Evil)
Most values... Hedonism

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, examine the table below of the motivations most commonly associated with the Path of Luxury. Then, pick at least one item (Keyword: "value") from the list. These chosen items are the motivations that are equally the most important to you and they likely interact with eachother. If desired, feel free to pick a motivation that’s unlisted but fits the description of hedonism.



ASPECT
Hedonism


MEANING
Pleasure and sensuous gratification for oneself.


CORE VALUES



experiencing pleasure
enjoying life





This next table represents the aspects and associated values next most common to the Path of Luxury after the motivations listed above. This table can be used as additional inspiration for how your character's motivations may interact with eachother. The middle two aspects (Stimulation and Achievement) are slightly more common to the Path of Luxury than the other two aspects (Self-Direction and Power).



ASPECT
Self-Direction
Stimulation
Achievement
Power


MEANING
Independent thought and action; choosing, creating, exploring.
Excitement, novelty, and challenge in life.
Personal success through demonstrating competence according to social standards.
Social status and prestige, control or dominance over people and resources.


CORE VALUES



freedom
creativity
independence
choosing one's own goals
being curious
having self-respect





having an exciting and varied life
being daring





being ambitious
being influential
being capable
being successful
having intelligence
having self-respect





having social power
having wealth
having authority
preserving one's own public image
having social recognition






Path of Supremacy (Neutral Evil)
Most values... Achievement and Power

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, examine the table below of the motivations most commonly associated with the aspects of the Path of Supremacy. Then, pick at least one item (Keyword: "value") from each of the two categories below. These chosen items are the motivations that are equally the most important to you and they likely interact with eachother. If desired, feel free to pick a motivation that’s unlisted but fits a particular category’s description.



ASPECT
Achievement
Power


MEANING
Personal success through demonstrating competence according to social standards.
Social status and prestige, control or dominance over people and resources.


CORE VALUES



being ambitious
being influential
being capable
being successful
having intelligence
having self-respect





having social power
having wealth
having authority
preserving one's own public image
having social recognition





This next table represents the aspects and associated values next most common to the Path of Supremacy after the motivations listed above. This table can be used as additional inspiration for how your character's motivations may interact with eachother.



ASPECT
Hedonism
Security


MEANING
Pleasure and sensuous gratification for oneself.
Safety, harmony, and stability of society, of relationships, and of self.


CORE VALUES



experiencing pleasure
enjoying life





ensuring national security
reciprocation of favors
ensuring family security
having a sense of belonging
preserving the social order
being healthy and clean





Path of Ascendency (Lawful Evil)
Most values... Power and Security

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, examine the table below of the motivations most commonly associated with the aspects of the Path of Ascendency. Then, pick at least one item (Keyword: "value") from each of the two categories below. These chosen items are the motivations that are equally the most important to you and they likely interact with eachother. If desired, feel free to pick a motivation that’s unlisted but fits a particular category’s description.



ASPECT
Power
Security


MEANING
Social status and prestige, control or dominance over people and resources.
Safety, harmony, and stability of society, of relationships, and of self.


CORE VALUES



having social power
having wealth
having authority
preserving one's own public image
having social recognition





ensuring national security
reciprocation of favors
ensuring family security
having a sense of belonging
preserving the social order
being healthy and clean





This next table represents the aspects and associated values next most common to the Path of Ascendency after the motivations listed above. This table can be used as additional inspiration for how your character's motivations may interact with eachother.



ASPECT
Achievement
Conformity/Tradition


MEANING
Personal success through demonstrating competence according to social standards.
Restraint of actions, inclinations, and impulses likely to upset or harm others and violate social expectations or norms. Also respect, commitment, and acceptance of the customs and ideas that traditional culture or religion provide the self.


CORE VALUES



being ambitious
being influential
being capable
being successful
having intelligence
having self-respect





being obedient
having self-discipline
being polite
honoring parents and elders
respecting tradition
being devout
accepting one's own portion in life
being humble
taking life in moderation





Path of Harmony (Lawful Neutral)Most values... Security and Conformity/Tradition

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, examine the table below of the motivations most commonly associated with the aspects of the Path of Harmony. Then, pick at least one item (Keyword: "value") from each of the two categories below. These chosen items are the motivations that are equally the most important to you and they likely interact with eachother. If desired, feel free to pick a motivation that’s unlisted but fits a particular category’s description.



ASPECT
Security
Conformity/Tradition


MEANING
Safety, harmony, and stability of society, of relationships, and of self.
Restraint of actions, inclinations, and impulses likely to upset or harm others and violate social expectations or norms. Also respect, commitment, and acceptance of the customs and ideas that traditional culture or religion provide the self.


CORE VALUES



ensuring national security
reciprocation of favors
ensuring family security
having a sense of belonging
preserving the social order
being healthy and clean





being obedient
having self-discipline
being polite
honoring parents and elders
respecting tradition
being devout
accepting one's own portion in life
being humble
taking life in moderation





This next table represents the aspects and associated values next most common to the Path of Harmony after the motivations listed above. This table can be used as additional inspiration for how your character's motivations may interact with eachother.


{table="head;width=75%"]ASPECT | Power | Benevolence
MEANING | Social status and prestige, control or dominance over people and resources. | Preserving and enhancing the welfare of those with whom one is in frequent personal contact (the "in-group").
CORE VALUES |

having social power
having wealth
having authority
preserving one's own public image
having social recognition

|

being helpful
being responsible
being forgiving
being honest
being loyal
having mature love for others and true friendships

[/table]



ASPECT
Power
Benevolence


MEANING
Social status and prestige, control or dominance over people and resources.
Preserving and enhancing the welfare of those with whom one is in frequent personal contact (the "in-group").


CORE VALUES



having social power
having wealth
having authority
preserving one's own public image
having social recognition





being helpful
being responsible
being forgiving
being honest
being loyal
having mature love for others and true friendships





Path of Equity (True Neutral)Most values... (any values)

If you’re unsure what motivates your character most, review the motivations mentioned above for the other paths. Feel free to select a smattering of motivations from any and every list as what’s most important to you. Generally, try to pick some motivations from a set or two of diametrically-opposed aspects (such as universalism and power). Realize however that you can normally only bend your alignment so far as to a single half-step alignment (or to the Path of Luxury) without suffering any immediate consequences. To you, every aspect is roughly-speaking equal in importance. If your chosen motivations tend to cluster in a particular aspect or two, perhaps you should consider the alignment path(s) associated with those aspects instead of the Path of Equity.

Jeff the Green
2013-05-13, 06:41 AM
First of all, this might better belong in the homebrew section.

Second, I object to the labeling of CE (and only CE) as "Hedonism." There are many different versions of hedonism. For example, I follow a modified version of epicureanism, which teaches that the ultimate goal of any organism is the elimination of pain and the increase of pleasure, and the only way to achieve this is through cultivating virtues such as compassion, reason, moderation, etc. This could be argued to be a LN, LG, CG, or CN philosophy, but certainly not a CE one.

Maginomicon
2013-05-13, 06:46 AM
Second, I object to the labeling of CE (and only CE) as "Hedonism." There are many different versions of hedonism. For example, I follow a modified version of epicureanism, which teaches that the ultimate goal of any organism is the elimination of pain and the increase of pleasure, and the only way to achieve this is through cultivating virtues such as compassion, reason, moderation, etc. This could be argued to be a LN, LG, CG, or CN philosophy, but certainly not a CE one.

A “Lawful Good” character can value hedonism fine in-general in their daily activities without “bending their alignment”. However, “when the chips are down” (for example, such as when lives are on the line) he’d be bending his alignment if he willingly does something that’s not inherently part of his alignment (such as forgoing his core values for a night of passion).
From what you've said and that alone, it sounds like your alignment most prioritizes hedonism, but uses regular and reasonable amounts of compassion, reason, moderation, etc. to achieve your ultimate goal of "increasing pleasure".

...so... really that sounds right up your alley.

rollforeigninit
2013-05-13, 01:28 PM
Wow. While most threads like this seem to attract trolls this one seems to at least try to be fair to the alignments and even adds a shade or so of depth to them. This thread will become required reading for my new players.

As a side note, I would LOVE to see the Antipaladin played that way and see how long one would survive if they actually live up to the NO good acts, ever part of things. Turnabout is fair play after all.

Xervous
2013-05-13, 01:40 PM
Where is the DONATE button?

Because seriously, keep talking and take my money.

jests aside, I applaud this development of the alignment spectrum

zlefin
2013-05-13, 02:02 PM
an interesting system. It certainly looks useful as a way to build characters by picking a few motivators.
I wish I could make an alignment system, but posting requirements here would forbid it as it involves too much real world reference for clarity.

Tholomyes
2013-05-13, 02:52 PM
Looks interesting and well thought out. I personally don't like any mechanical references to alignment, but as more of a role-playing aid, I think this could be quite an interesting idea (though I would scrap the lables of "Neutral Good", "Lawful Evil" ect and instead ask the PCs to select Two values to be their primary ethos, most likely neighboring values, but not mandatory; I could see the average commoner, for example, take self-direction and security)

Pime Taradox
2013-05-13, 02:56 PM
I think this should be the official "Alignments Fix" thread.

That is, a thread that actually deals with Alignment instead of criticising, caricaturising and banning/ignoring Alignment in DnD/Pathfinder.

Kaeso
2013-05-13, 04:58 PM
Wow, that's quite a read. I've only glossed over it and I should take my time to reread it carefully once, but it does seem pretty interesting.

13_CBS
2013-05-13, 05:03 PM
Hmm, this rather reminds me of Magic: The Gathering's Color Wheel system, where the 5 colors are not judged based on whether they're good or evil, but on what they value most.

Did the Color Wheel inspire you, by any chance?

Eldan
2013-05-13, 05:15 PM
It *is* a bit problematic in that you give personality traits to certain alignments where, before, players could have their own interpretation of alignments.

Edit: nevermind, I just read the entire post now, including the "voluntary" section. Choosing one of the ideals in each column was a smart idea.

That said, a few of your lists are a bit short. I'm looking at Stimulation, mainly, since that's sort of the corner where my characters tend to land.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-05-13, 05:19 PM
Anarchs (D310 p47; Chaotic Neutral a.k.a. “Path of Autonomy”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a blatantly lawful act (such as abiding by an oath, fulfilling a contract, or joining an organization such as a brotherhood or fellowship). Aside from this, an anarch’s code is little more than a lack of a code. As long as he continues to cause chaos and foment disrespect for law in others, his status as an anarch is secure.

The examples you give for breaking the Anarchs code are, to be blunt, ridiculous and stupid.

you have a very well thought out system, but your idea of chaotic neutral is really quite lawful in a weird negative way. I'm not sure how I'd fix it but let me give some examples.

An Anarch who promised to do something they would normally do is screwed and has to break his code and then atone. He can't adventure with anyone or else he loses his abilities, fellowships and all that. Finally he can't even finagle his way to abusing contracts like chaotic neutral people love to do, even if they don't like them they love to abuse them.

In the end any strict interpretation of this code makes lawful stupid interpretations of the paladin code look much less restrictive. Then again I am one of those people who can't understand why people hate CN so much when they haven't even seen a character who is actually CN.

Maginomicon
2013-05-13, 07:06 PM
As a side note, I would LOVE to see the Antipaladin played that way and see how long one would survive if they actually live up to the NO good acts, ever part of things. Turnabout is fair play after all. Keep in mind, the Anti-Paladin is a real class located in Dragon Magazine #312 page 20.


Did the Color Wheel inspire you, by any chance?Nope. There's a link at the very beginning of the handbook (http://easydamus.com/alignmentreal.html) that is for the original theoretical article that inspired this implementation.


The examples you give for breaking the Anarchs code are, to be blunt, ridiculous and stupid.What I put is essentially-verbatim what the code of conduct for the Anarch class says. I didn't make it up. That's the actual RAW for a very real class described in Dragon Magazine #310 page 47.

Eldan
2013-05-13, 07:29 PM
It's still stupid. And you have an opportunity to change it.

Just in my opinion: keeping your word isn't a lawful act. Keeping it when it hurts you to do so is.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-05-13, 09:22 PM
as a side note i would like to point out that it seems to me to be very lawful to always break your word. this Anarch sounds like a Lawful Neutral person with a code to always lie and oppose other laws. they only chaotic part is spreading chaos. perhaps chaotic neutral is just a really bad alignment for a paladin like code since a code would kinda defeat the purpose or not be restricting.

the problem is opposing law is a lawful trait. ignoring the law and freeing people from it is a chaotic trait.

the only legitimate code i can think of would be the propagation of disorder and not allying with people and organizations that promote order. this doesn't seem very good for a code though.

edit: i guess it goes back to that article. this system is written from the point of view of a lawful good person.

Cirrylius
2013-05-13, 09:34 PM
Just in my opinion: keeping your word isn't a lawful act. Keeping it when it hurts you to do so is.
I'd amend that to "Keeping it when it prevents you from benefitting". Obviously a tiny difference, but semantics are key when screaming nose to nose discussing alignment.

137beth
2013-05-13, 09:36 PM
I think this should be the official "Alignments Fix" thread.

That is, a thread that actually deals with Alignment instead of criticising, caricaturising and banning/ignoring Alignment in DnD/Pathfinder.
I'm going to second this. Most alignment fixes I've seen are either "no more alignments, if you like alignments you are terrible at roleplaying!!,"
or
"Break the existing alignments down further."

You've really expanded and improved alignments.

TuggyNE
2013-05-14, 12:13 AM
This is probably one of the best takes on alignment I've seen, which is saying something*.

It manages to partially** satisfy my desire for more descriptiveness and avoid some problems that occur when players want characters of various unusual alignments. It even manages a half-decent take on my own personality, which is no small feat.

Honestly, though, I think it could use a bit more explanation of how to merge seemingly contradictory motives in and determine which is really dominant; even though the outline is there, repetition and further examples can't hurt anything.

*I've seen maybe half a dozen or more alignment systems, and I hate nearly all of them with a passion. Funky/Square, MtG colors, 4e, 3.x, 2e, 1e, anarchic/axiomatic/exalted/vile, and so on are all only tolerable at best. And that's not counting the dozens of alternate axes gathered a while back.
**Not sure my pigeonholing instincts can be fully satisfied by any practical system, but eh.

Jeff the Green
2013-05-14, 12:25 AM
From what you've said and that alone, it sounds like your alignment most prioritizes hedonism, but uses regular and reasonable amounts of compassion, reason, moderation, etc. to achieve your ultimate goal of "increasing pleasure".

...so... really that sounds right up your alley.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what that meant. It seemed like that meant that you can have a paladin who enjoys boozing and wenching, but not one whose entire motivation for being a paladin is being happy. On the other hand, I'm imagining a character who is a paladin because if he did anything else he'd be absolutely miserable. That person could equally be called a hedonist as the guy who is absolutely miserable when he's not torturing orphans and therefore spends as much time as possible doing so.

(NB: I'm not saying I'm a paladin, or am anywhere near capablee of that kind of devotion.)

TuggyNE
2013-05-14, 01:23 AM
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what that meant. It seemed like that meant that you can have a paladin who enjoys boozing and wenching, but not one whose entire motivation for being a paladin is being happy. On the other hand, I'm imagining a character who is a paladin because if he did anything else he'd be absolutely miserable. That person could equally be called a hedonist as the guy who is absolutely miserable when he's not torturing orphans and therefore spends as much time as possible doing so.

(NB: I'm not saying I'm a paladin, or am anywhere near capablee of that kind of devotion.)

Hmm. I think the problem here is that hedonism in the defined Path of Luxury sense is not merely the purſuit of happineſs, but more precisely, someone who likes certain kinds of pleasurable sensations (which aren't especially orphan-torturing necessarily). Everyone can (presumably) be happy/satisfied/content doing whatever their alignment motivations are, but that doesn't necessarily spring from individual moments of ecstasy so much as the entirety of what they do.

That is, CE here is someone who likes bursts of intense pleasure, and prioritizes around that at the cost (if necessary) of whatever else. However, every alignment feels better when doing whatever it is it's motivated toward; that's the meaning of motivation, eh?

Jeff the Green
2013-05-14, 01:31 AM
Hmm. I think the problem here is that hedonism in the defined Path of Luxury sense is not merely the purſuit of happineſs, but more precisely, someone who likes certain kinds of pleasurable sensations (which aren't especially orphan-torturing necessarily). Everyone can (presumably) be happy/satisfied/content doing whatever their alignment motivations are, but that doesn't necessarily spring from individual moments of ecstasy so much as the entirety of what they do.

That is, CE here is someone who likes bursts of intense pleasure, and prioritizes around that at the cost (if necessary) of whatever else. However, every alignment feels better when doing whatever it is it's motivated toward; that's the meaning of motivation, eh?

Not quite. Hedonism is the deliberate and usually explicit pursuit of happiness as a moral good. The CE person who pursues those spikes of pleasure probably doesn't advocate everyone else doing the same thing because that would lead them to killing the CE guy so they can be happy.

My objection was mostly with the label. CE isn't necessarily hedonistic and hedonists aren't necessarily CE.

TuggyNE
2013-05-14, 03:00 AM
Not quite. Hedonism is the deliberate and usually explicit pursuit of happiness as a moral good.

Yeah, OK. It's not always so highfaluting, but eh.


The CE person who pursues those spikes of pleasure probably doesn't advocate everyone else doing the same thing because that would lead them to killing the CE guy so they can be happy.

Wait, what? Why would they assume others would be killing them for pleasure? I'm missing one or three steps here.


My objection was mostly with the label. CE isn't necessarily hedonistic and hedonists aren't necessarily CE.

Hmm. Well, not everyone who would previously have been classified CE would be now, which is one of the trickier aspects (but it is mentioned in the OP). Also, for what it's worth, I've vaguely heard that the main reason most serial killers do what they do is because each victim gives them a surge of elation; they happen to be CE in both the destruct-o sense and in the sense of following the Path of Luxury (because that is in fact one of the things that gives the most short-term pleasure for them). Not all hedonists are destruct-o, and not all destruct-o are hedonists, no, but I think this system would re-assign other destruct-o types to other alignments based on whatever other motives they have.

Jeff the Green
2013-05-14, 03:27 AM
Wait, what? Why would they assume others would be killing them for pleasure? I'm missing one or three steps here.

It's hard to enjoy burning down the world if people are doing it before you can.

More seriously, if you're serious about your own happiness, the first thing to do is neutralize the people who make that happiness impossible. With psychotic murder hobos, that typically means killing them.


Hmm. Well, not everyone who would previously have been classified CE would be now, which is one of the trickier aspects (but it is mentioned in the OP). Also, for what it's worth, I've vaguely heard that the main reason most serial killers do what they do is because each victim gives them a surge of elation; they happen to be CE in both the destruct-o sense and in the sense of following the Path of Luxury (because that is in fact one of the things that gives the most short-term pleasure for them). Not all hedonists are destruct-o, and not all destruct-o are hedonists, no, but I think this system would re-assign other destruct-o types to other alignments based on whatever other motives they have.

Well, yes, but the problem is that according to some metaethical theories (the one I subscribe to, and obviously IMO the one I think is best justified; YMMV) "experiencing pleasure" and "enjoying life" are the core values of every being capable of self-reflection. Even the self-immolating martyr does so because, they believe, those final instants of torture plus whatever afterlife, if any, are more pleasurable to any years they might have left in a natural life and impending afterlife. The only difference between the different alignments are a) what they believe will bring pleasure or pain and b) how long they think they'll exist to enjoy said pleasure or endure said pain. If you can describe Durkin and Xykon as belonging to the same path, the system has a deep flaw.

TuggyNE
2013-05-14, 03:39 AM
It's hard to enjoy burning down the world if people are doing it before you can.

More seriously, if you're serious about your own happiness, the first thing to do is neutralize the people who make that happiness impossible. With psychotic murder hobos, that typically means killing them.

There's still something I'm not getting. If you have some dude who likes to sleep around, do you immediately go and off him? Or would that dude be likely to expect people to do that?

Because as far as I can tell that's a textbook example of hedonism/Path of Luxury/CE in this context.


Well, yes, but the problem is that according to some metaethical theories (the one I subscribe to, and obviously IMO the one I think is best justified; YMMV) "experiencing pleasure" and "enjoying life" are the core values of every being capable of self-reflection. Even the self-immolating martyr does so because, they believe, those final instants of torture plus whatever afterlife, if any, are more pleasurable to any years they might have left in a natural life and impending afterlife. The only difference between the different alignments are a) what they believe will bring pleasure or pain and b) how long they think they'll exist to enjoy said pleasure or endure said pain.

Basically, yes. I wholly agree, and that's why I was careful to note that hedonists are defined not by liking pleasure (which is tautological), but by valuing intense bursts of it as the overall best course (the "sensuality" in the OP is probably also a good indicator). Further discussion along this line may be hampered by my own prudishness. :smallwink:


If you can describe Durkin and Xykon as belonging to the same path, the system has a deep flaw.

Indeed, but I don't think you can; Xykon figures that power is the way to go, with various smidges of other things; he's not so much into indulging his senses and body, which is good because he's a lich — NE or LE. Durkon, on the other hand, is obviously more about Conformity/Tradition and Benevolence, so a tidy LG; he (presumably) gains steady satisfaction from doing his job and helping people and so on.

Jeff the Green
2013-05-14, 04:02 AM
There's still something I'm not getting. If you have some dude who likes to sleep around, do you immediately go and off him? Or would that dude be likely to expect people to do that?

Ah, okay, there's the problem. I was referring to someone who's a hedonist in the new system and CE in the old. Like a serial killer.

I suppose my problem is the (IMO) misuse of the term hedonist, plus the fact that it assigns morally pejorative terms like CE to pure aesthetes seems a bit off. I don't go as far as some that you should have to have evil motives to be on the southern third of the alignment chart/wheel, but I do think it should have some bearing on what we call evil in the real world. Most people don't call people who spend their lives in pursuit of even superficial pleasure evil. Shortsighted, selfish, even stupid, sure. But not evil.


Indeed, but I don't think you can; Xykon figures that power is the way to go, with various smidges of other things; he's not so much into indulging his senses and body, which is good because he's a lich — NE or LE. Durkon, on the other hand, is obviously more about Conformity/Tradition and Benevolence, so a tidy LG; he (presumably) gains steady satisfaction from doing his job and helping people and so on.

Except both want pleasure and to enjoy life. It's just that one thinks domination will make him happy while one thinks serving his god/clan/world will make him happy. So they equally have the core values of the path of luxury.

TuggyNE
2013-05-14, 04:39 AM
Ah, okay, there's the problem. I was referring to someone who's a hedonist in the new system and CE in the old. Like a serial killer.

I suppose my problem is the (IMO) misuse of the term hedonist, plus the fact that it assigns morally pejorative terms like CE to pure aesthetes seems a bit off. I don't go as far as some that you should have to have evil motives to be on the southern third of the alignment chart/wheel, but I do think it should have some bearing on what we call evil in the real world. Most people don't call people who spend their lives in pursuit of even superficial pleasure evil. Shortsighted, selfish, even stupid, sure. But not evil.

Well, at some point selfishness at the expense of others does tend to get a bit evil, no? (You could also make some sort of point about general cultural tendencies and values, but I'm not sure that's really appropriate here.)


Except both want pleasure and to enjoy life. It's just that one thinks domination will make him happy while one thinks serving his god/clan/world will make him happy. So they equally have the core values of the path of luxury.

Sort of. That's ignoring the part immediately above that, though:
Meaning: Pleasure and sensuous gratification for oneself.

Neither Durkon nor Xykon are in it for "sensuous gratification".

I will agree that could use some more clarification.

Jon_Dahl
2013-05-14, 04:50 AM
I think this is very good approach to alignments, but I think the only problem is that it's a bit heavy. Casual players who don't read that much or simply read the things they like reading, will be put off by this.

I'll keep the RAW alignments, but I commend you on the great effort. I especially like the format.

Jeff the Green
2013-05-14, 05:14 AM
Well, at some point selfishness at the expense of others does tend to get a bit evil, no? (You could also make some sort of point about general cultural tendencies and values, but I'm not sure that's really appropriate here.)

At the expense of others, sure. But you can argue that spending your energy attaining sensuous pleasure that doesn't harm others is selfish in that you're not using your abilities to benefit others. Most people wouldn't call it evil, though.


Sort of. That's ignoring the part immediately above that, though:

Neither Durkon nor Xykon are in it for "sensuous gratification".

I will agree that could use some more clarification.

I'm not sure I'd say there's any meaningful distinction between pleasure and sensuous gratification. Even if there is, it's a purely aesthetic, not moral or ethical, difference.

Maginomicon
2013-05-14, 05:53 AM
Something I should point out:

This was a rewrite of the alignments system based on an article on Real Alignment theory. The motives involved in each aspect are present in every creature at one time or another, and that's fine.

Those that are "CE" in the traditional alignment system would often not be "CE" with Real Alignments. That isn't even the right terminology here. "CE" is largely-coincidentally associated with the "Path of Luxury" for the sake of convenience. The Path of Luxury is tangentially-related to the very broad concepts of "evil" and "chaos" because unfortunately that path is the closest Real Alignment analogue to those two types of caricatures.

The Path of Luxury could be for anyone that most values hedonism overall as their ultimate priority "at the end of the day" (so to speak). Anyone from the street thug to guard captain to the king's advisor could conceivably be following the Path of Luxury. This is because the Path of Luxury represents that you value the hedonism aspect most (not necessarily to exclusion of other aspects, just that you value it "most") compared to the other aspects.

A Paladin of Honor (and thus a follower of the Path of Integrity or an adjacent half-step alignment) can enjoy pleasures of the body fine with a clear conscience, but when lives are on the line he'd be bending his alignment unless he acts as would be expected of the Path of Integrity (and associated aspects) because that's what he values most. His Paladin of Honor code of conduct then further provides more specific behavior demands.

In the same way, a Ranger can follow the Path of Luxury but still welcome a sense of belonging (as seen in the Security aspect), have mature love for others and true friendships (as seen in the Benevolence aspect), and enjoy having wealth (as seen in the Power aspect). When the chips are down however, he'd value Hedonism more than any of those if he can't see a gain of pleasure on the horizon as a result of non-hedonistic motives right now. To put it another way, in the comic if The Snarl unmakes everything, Belkar won't be able to have any more pleasures of the body, and he won't stand for that (not to say that Belkar specifically wants any of the things mentioned at the beginning of this paragraph).

Just because someone's following the Path of Luxury does not mean they're a caricature of chaos and evil. That's just coincidental baggage from the traditional alignments system. Real Alignments just determine what you value most when the chips are down. Your classes and prestige classes however have specific fluff that demands a more specific kind of behavior and have a prerequisite range of general mindsets. The Real Alignments system just provides descriptions of what those general mindsets entail.

-----------

Consequently, I find it intriguing that demons with Real Alignments most value Hedonism and devils with Real Alignments most value Power and Security. That intrinsically means that a party can appeal to those motives on a base level instead of having to make knowledge checks to remember the exact fluff. That is, on encountering a demon, someone could cast detect evil for 6+ rounds and thus know how to best appeal to him in negotiations. (Mechanics enhancing roleplaying potential yay!)

Now consider what happens when you combine the Real Alignment version of Detect Evil (or any alignment really) with the Detect Thoughts spell. At the 6th round onward, Detect Evil would start to give you broad but useful topics that are important to the target creature. Then, when you ask about those topics, naturally the creature's surface thoughts will likely become about that topic and BAM, the Detect Thoughts spell picks up those thoughts. Welcome to viable mind-reading interrogation techniques.

Endon the White
2013-05-14, 06:22 PM
{Scrubbed}

Sutremaine
2013-05-15, 05:45 PM
Why keep coming back to Detect Evil? If any person can take any alignment when there are no stakes, why not talk of Detect [Alignment]? Singling Evil out like this smacks of the original alignment system, where it's treated as something that stands out in the world of alignment instead of being as much a part of it as Good.

Maginomicon
2013-05-15, 05:55 PM
Why keep coming back to Detect Evil? If any person can take any alignment when there are no stakes, why not talk of Detect [Alignment]? Singling Evil out like this smacks of the original alignment system, where it's treated as something that stands out in the world of alignment instead of being as much a part of it as Good.
Where it says "(similar effects get in-kind)" in the handbook, it means that detect good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectGood.htm), detect law, etc. all get equivalent effects in-kind. I'm not focusing on detect evil to the exclusion of others. That's just the base spell in the SRD on which the other detect spells in the SRD reference their texts.

Maginomicon
2013-06-08, 11:36 AM
I've added the following to the OP, replacing a line regarding spells with the evil descriptor being evil acts.

Note that according to the 3.5 FAQ page 77: "Most spellcasters aren’t prevented from casting spells with the Evil descriptor, nor do they suffer any penalty or ill effect for doing so. Only certain classes have restrictions or ramifications involved with using spells with an alignment descriptor, and those are clearly spelled out in the class descriptions." Spells with alignment descriptors only have those descriptors so that they interact with certain class features and other effects that specifically refer to those kinds of spells. Alignment-based spell descriptors otherwise have no repercussions on the spellcaster.
Yes, I realize that a couple of resources imply or even state that casting spells with the evil descriptor is an evil act, but a number of those sources are 3.0 material. I'm quoting the 3.5 FAQ here, which because of its publishing date is about as close to a final word as we can get on anything outside of the Rules Compendium (which is silent on the matter).

There's also implications outside of that which point to casting spells with the evil descriptor as not being inherently evil acts, such as the Malconvoker's Unrestricted Conjuration ability.

hamishspence
2013-06-08, 11:40 AM
There's also implications outside of that which point to casting spells with the evil descriptor as not being inherently evil acts, such as the Malconvoker's Unrestricted Conjuration ability.

Isn't it the other way round? Unrestricted Conjuration, implies that the normal state is, that repeatedly casting Evil conjuration spells, will eventually change your alignment, moving it toward evil.

Maginomicon
2013-06-08, 11:48 AM
Isn't it the other way round? Unrestricted Conjuration, implies that the normal state is, that repeatedly casting Evil conjuration spells, will eventually change your alignment, moving it toward evil.

It specifically calls out clerics, which are one of the classes that specifically have restrictions as a class feature.
Unrestricted Conjuration: For the purpose only of casting conjuration spells, you can ignore any restrictions that forbid you from casting spells of certain alignments. In addition, regular use of conjuration spells with the evil descriptor does not threaten to change your alignment. For example, a good cleric who becomes a malconvoker could cast summon monster I to summon a fiendish raven (whose alignment gives the spell the evil descriptor). The cleric could not cast death knell, though, which has the evil descriptor but is not of the conjuration school.
Even if you're right, publishing date is what ultimately matters, and the 3.5 FAQ was published after Complete Scoundrel anyway.

hamishspence
2013-06-08, 12:40 PM
I figured that this:

In addition, regular use of conjuration spells with the evil descriptor does not threaten to change your alignment.

applied to all classes that took the PRC- wizards, sorcerers, Favoured Souls, etc.

As for the FAQ statement "Nor do they suffer any penalty or ill effect for doing so" - I don't think they meant "eventual potential alignment change" to be covered by that- since it's not really an ill effect for a wizard to change alignment.

Maginomicon
2013-06-08, 12:54 PM
As for the FAQ statement "Nor do they suffer any penalty or ill effect for doing so" - I don't think they meant "eventual potential alignment change" to be covered by that- since it's not really an ill effect for a wizard to change alignment.It's also a moot point since the basis of Real Alignments is intention, not action. It wouldn't make any sense in a rewrite of alignment that's based on intention for a swath of spells to change alignment based on an act (if it explicitly states it in a particular spell however, that's another matter).

hamishspence
2013-06-08, 01:00 PM
It wouldn't make any sense in a rewrite of alignment that's based on intention for a swath of spells to change alignment based on an act (if it explicitly states it in a particular spell however, that's another matter).

This is true.

Maginomicon
2013-09-27, 05:41 AM
This is true.

To further support the idea that [evil] spells aren't intended to count as evil acts for the purposes of alignment, consider the Healer class. Being a Healer requires that you have a good alignment (or in the case of Real Alignments, be following a path that's associated with a "good" component by proxy). The Healer has a very restrictive spell list, so naturally every spell on that list counts for a lot. One of those spells is deathwatch... which has the [evil] descriptor.

EDIT: Those that think deathwatch shouldn't have the [evil] descriptor should re-read the OP. The [evil] descriptor is just that, a descriptor. It's a keyword tag meant to do nothing more than explicitly be called out by effects which explicitly mention the tag by name (such as restricted casting descriptions for "good-aligned" clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#chaoticEvilGoodandLawfulSpells) and druids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#chaoticEvilGoodAndLawfulSpells)).

TuggyNE
2013-09-27, 06:25 AM
To further support the idea that [evil] spells aren't intended to count as evil acts for the purposes of alignment, consider the Healer class. Being a Healer requires that you have a good alignment (or in the case of Real Alignments, be following a path that's associated with a "good" component by proxy). The Healer has a very restrictive spell list, so naturally every spell on that list counts for a lot. One of those spells is deathwatch... which has the [evil] descriptor.

That's a reasonable argument all the way up to the point you assume deathwatch should have the [evil] descriptor, but since many (including myself) would consider that merely a stupid error on the part of someone during the 3.5 update cycle, the conclusion doesn't necessarily quite follow.

hamishspence
2013-09-27, 06:27 AM
I prefer to think of it as: the Healer was designed in 3.0 (when Deathwatch didn't have the Evil subtype) and released in one of the earliest 3.5 splatbooks (Miniatures Handbook)

but that Deathwatch gained the Evil subtype very late in the design process for the 3.5 PHB, and no-one thought to revise the other books that were in development.

Fiendish Codex 2 makes it pretty clear that casting an [evil] spell is a Corrupt Act. And Eberron Campaign Setting made it clear that while Good clerics can (in the modified rules the book gives them) cast [Evil] spells now, that doesn't change casting the spell being an Evil act.

So, a case can be made that most 3.5 game designers were pretty clear about it- the only mistake, was in the choice of which spells would gain the subtype, in the revision of the 3.5 PHB- illustrative of a lack of communication between book writers.


That's a reasonable argument all the way up to the point you assume deathwatch should have the [evil] descriptor, but since many (including myself) would consider that merely a stupid error on the part of someone during the 3.5 update cycle, the conclusion doesn't necessarily quite follow.

I tend to blame Monte Cook, since his BoVD book actively recommends revising the Deathwatch spell in 3.0 to have the [Evil] subtype.

Seto
2013-09-27, 02:16 PM
Wow, I'm really impressed ! This is very good thinking and it actually makes alignments plausible in a human world. Well done man ;)

I have constructive criticism, though. I think that by definition "Real alignments" should be applied to people, not Outsider races. A demon is the living embodiment of Chaos and Evil, it is not "real", so of course it is a caricature and should stay that way !
You might reply that Demons value pleasure most, at the exclusion of everything else (as in, a Demon cannot be benevolent, when all humans have a bit of everything in them). I agree, they do. However, sensual pleasure for a demon is not sleeping around (well, not only), but maiming and killing, exerting senseless violence, etc. That's because that's what they're created to do (when humans are created to no purpose, or to choose their own purpose), and thus they have different urges than humans do.
Granted, both Don Juan and a flesh-ripping demon could be labelled as "Hedonists", since their intent is sensual pleasure. The system works for both. But that's just the point : it shouldn't, IMO. In my example, the CE human is much closer to a LG human than to the CE Demon (after all, they are both conflicted humans who may even have walked the same path, but have made different choices "when the chips are down"). And it's normal : in an adventuring party, the CE halfing rogue probably feels closer to the LG paladin than to the bloodsucking fiend he is backstabbing - and with reason.

Basically, what I'm saying is that when applied to the entirety of D&D races, even though the system based on values nominally works, every step or even half-step will be stretched too far (between its two extremes, that's to say the two characters who could walk that path that are the most different from each other) to be believable. So, I'd highly recommend it to players and to GMs who want to make believable PC-races NPCs ; but paragons should stick to the caricatural alignment system, because they precisely are meant to be caricatures.

Once again, kudos :)

Maginomicon
2013-09-27, 08:37 PM
I think that by definition "Real alignments" should be applied to people, not Outsider races. A demon is the living embodiment of Chaos and Evil, it is not "real", so of course it is a caricature and should stay that way !
You might reply that Demons value pleasure most, at the exclusion of everything else (as in, a Demon cannot be benevolent, when all humans have a bit of everything in them). I agree, they do. However, sensual pleasure for a demon is not sleeping around (well, not only), but maiming and killing, exerting senseless violence, etc. That's because that's what they're created to do (when humans are created to no purpose, or to choose their own purpose), and thus they have different urges than humans do.
Granted, both Don Juan and a flesh-ripping demon could be labelled as "Hedonists", since their intent is sensual pleasure. The system works for both. But that's just the point : it shouldn't, IMO. In my example, the CE human is much closer to a LG human than to the CE Demon (after all, they are both conflicted humans who may even have walked the same path, but have made different choices "when the chips are down"). And it's normal : in an adventuring party, the CE halfing rogue probably feels closer to the LG paladin than to the bloodsucking fiend he is backstabbing - and with reason.

Basically, what I'm saying is that when applied to the entirety of D&D races, even though the system based on values nominally works, every step or even half-step will be stretched too far (between its two extremes, that's to say the two characters who could walk that path that are the most different from each other) to be believable. So, I'd highly recommend it to players and to GMs who want to make believable PC-races NPCs ; but paragons should stick to the caricatural alignment system, because they precisely are meant to be caricatures.
Let's set aside for a moment that if a GM wants to use Real Alignments for some creatures and not for others, then that's their prerogative and I'd be happy that people are using the Real Alignments system at all.

Why, exactly, should any creature with sentience and intelligence have a predeterministic caricature personality? Why should anyone that can put deep thought into something be forbidden from applying deep thought to their world view? Demons and devils are not mindless creatures (like skeletons). They have freedom of choice. To be clear, I'm not speaking of "choice" as in between "good" and "evil" caricatures, but choice as in "do I go in to work today" or "what's the meaning of life" or "do I like cat pictures".

You may have missed the original point of Real Alignments. The intention of Real Alignments is that the values involved in each aspect are present in every non-mindless creature at one time or another, and that's fine. I don't presume that demons and devils can't be benevolent. I also don't presume that demons and devils are "paragons" of a caricature. I presume that by default a demon (like any intelligent creature) will when the chips are down choose a course of action that's more associated with the values and motivations that they prize most when multiple motivations are in conflict. Further, a course of action does not have to be locked-in to a particular motivation, as real decisions are almost-always multi-faceted.

The intention of Real Alignments is that (among many other things) all intelligent creatures are most inclined towards valuing a particular aspect (or set of aspects) above all others because of their default nature (as indicated by the "always" keyword in the standard alignment system, although there are always exceptions). There are also many creatures out there whose default nature does not lend itself as strongly to a particular aspect because everything comes in varying degrees (this is what is indicated by the "usually" keyword in the standard alignment system).

However, the lifestyle of a demon or devil (like any creature) gives context to their motivations. They have needs, wants, and experiences just like everyone else. A demon or devil may have learned from their experiences that they can get away with doing stereotypically-"evil" things with no consequences because everyone that they encounter around them in their daily lives has always been able to do that. However, that does not necessitate that they do those things "for the evuls (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz)". They (as intelligent creatures) have predilections, motives, grudges, and schemes just like everyone else. Their personal history can be easily interpreted to lend itself well to certain kinds of behavior, but their behavior is not their Real Alignment. (Real Alignments are not based on acts)

Finally, in case this wasn't clear to you, this is a rewrite of the alignments system in which the basically-"pejorative" alignment acronyms are essentially nothing but a reference term, as short-hand. "LG" and "CE" do not exist as caricatures in a Real Alignments system.

P.S. I'm aware that mindless creatures have alignments in the standard alignment system, but that can be considered as applying a very narrow specific aspect bent to the Path of Equity (TN). For example, a skeleton is "always neutral evil" and as-such always follows the Path of Supremacy. Look at the values associated with the Path of Supremacy. Apart from "having intelligence", it's easy to see how a skeleton can have those other values in context to some bent of the Path of Equity and their personal experiences.

Seto
2013-09-28, 01:04 AM
You may have missed the original point of Real Alignments. The intention of Real Alignments is that the values involved in each aspect are present in every non-mindless creature at one time or another, and that's fine. I don't presume that demons and devils can't be benevolent. I also don't presume that demons and devils are "paragons" of a caricature.

I thought the point (according to the easydamus article) was to show that "chaotic" and "evil" are unduly pejorative terms and bring up the fact that there are positive sides to them. And help the PCs make playable and heroic characters of all alignments :)


And it must be said that although this overlay shows that the "evil" alignments are motivated by Security, Power, Achievement, and Hedonism, in real life, these motivations do not necessarily produce "evil" individuals in the D&D sense. In fact, many people are certainly motivated to provide for their own Security and increase their own Power within society; these pursuits do not make them lawful evil (like a D&D villain). This is why it is important to change the terminology for naming the alignments if all alignments are to become playable.

That's just it : when people in real life strive for wealth and power, that doesn't make them "evil individuals", not in the sense of D&D. But fiends are evil individuals in the sense of D&D. The paladin won't smite an ambitious lawyer, but he'll definitely smite a Devil. I get that you alignment system is based on motivations and not acts, but I think seeing what actions stem from a motivation should be an integral part of defining an alignment.

I insisted that your system works for a fiend. But that's if you judge a fiend by human moral standards. And I'm not sure you should. Now, I agree they're not mindless. Probably a Fiend could reflect on his actions and decide he should have acted in a different way. But, if Demons are "always chaotic evil", it's because of a natural mindset : something no human will ever have. Their motivations are not cultural, they're instinctive. I could put it this way : they don't "choose" to value something, but they value it instinctively since the Abyss spawned them, and their "choices" are relative to the way they will promote what they value. That makes for a very different character from a human. They don't do thing abstractly "for the evuls" (they have goals, agendas, etc.), but ultimately they do : their agendas are created by the need to bring forth chaos and misery. Furthermore, I disagree that all core values are present in a demon : actually, all groups of values except Hedonism, Self-Direction, Stimulation, Achievement and Power contain values that are completely antithetical to the natural mindset of a demon (mostly because the values of each group has been designed with heroes in mind). A demon never feels compassion or a need to keep his word. He is a paragon.(You may interpret it differently, but that's the way I see them).

I've been looking for a double-standard for some time, because I never liked the fact that "evil" humans (sometimes people we wouldn't have called evil in real life) should be classified in the same category as a fiend (who any sane person in real life or anywhere would deem as evil).
I think this is a very good system - for humans. This might be what I was looking for. But in order for it to work, I'll apply it only to "morally and ethically indetermined races", if you know what I mean, and keep the core system for villains.

Maginomicon
2013-09-28, 01:59 AM
I've been looking for a double-standard for some time, because I never liked the fact that "evil" humans (sometimes people we wouldn't have called evil in real life) should be classified in the same category as a fiend (who any sane person in real life or anywhere would deem as evil).
I think this is a very good system - for humans. This might be what I was looking for. But in order for it to work, I'll apply it only to "morally and ethically indetermined races", if you know what I mean, and keep the core system for villains.
A devil or demon would turn to you and say...


I am a devil. Hath not a devil eyes? Hath not a devil hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a paladin is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a devil wrong a paladin, what is his humility? Revenge. If a paladin wrong a devil, what should his sufferance be by paladin example? Why, revenge. The villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
(Before anyone gets bent out of shape about the above quote, realize that even the Merchant himself could be replaced with any other nationality, creed -- or indeed, race or species -- and the speech would retain all of its meaning.)

...And it would be completely reasonable for a devil or demon to say this because that's how devils and demons roll mutha****er!

(Set aside the physical nit-picks that make devils/demons anatomically/mechanically different. The point stands.)

TuggyNE
2013-09-28, 02:37 AM
A devil or demon would turn to you and say...

(Before anyone gets bent out of shape about the above quote, realize that even the Merchant himself could be replaced with any other nationality, creed -- or indeed, race or species -- and the speech would retain all of its meaning.)

TBH, that speech has some rather specious reasoning, perhaps because Shakespeare was not the fairest-minded of men. Most of the similarities are too weak to really prove much, since really the only things that wouldn't equally be true of just any old random animal are tickling and revenge, and I strongly suspect you could get a fair number of people who would tell you that animal X is ticklish, or prone to revenge, or whatever.


(Set aside the physical nit-picks that make devils/demons anatomically/mechanically different. The point stands.)

I feel like being a devil's paladin's advocate today, so… you mean like the DR that makes it so you can't prick them or use regular weapons to hurt them, the poison immunity, the non-necessity of eating or sleeping, or the likelihood that devils aren't ticklish? That takes away more parallels than switching from human to animal does!

AMFV
2013-09-28, 03:20 AM
A devil or demon would turn to you and say...

(Before anyone gets bent out of shape about the above quote, realize that even the Merchant himself could be replaced with any other nationality, creed -- or indeed, race or species -- and the speech would retain all of its meaning.)


Not to get bent out of shape about that quote, but the Merchant was the villain and the speech was not intended to redeem him, it's as bad as when folks quote the "discretion is the better part of valor" speech, which was also intended to be view in a negative light.

hamishspence
2013-09-28, 03:22 AM
I've been looking for a double-standard for some time, because I never liked the fact that "evil" humans (sometimes people we wouldn't have called evil in real life) should be classified in the same category as a fiend (who any sane person in real life or anywhere would deem as evil).

Eberron shows us that this can be handled quite well:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a

In a crowd of ten commoners, odds are good that three will be evil. But that doesn't mean they are monsters or even killers -- each is just a greedy, selfish person who willingly watches others suffer. The sword is no answer here; the paladin is charged to protect these people. Oratory, virtue, and inspiration are the weapons of the paladin -- though intimidation may have its place.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a

Human Evil: The goal of the Church is to cleanse the world of evil. In the minds of most outsiders, this conjures up images of templars and exorcists fighting with sword and spell. But the vast majority of the members of the Church are not warriors. More people are in the ministry and the Order of Friars than in the Order of Templars, and they seek to battle evil by nurturing good. A Thrane farmer who is faithful to the Flame does not fight demons. But he seeks to live his life by the ideals of the Church: to help those in need, to encourage virtuous behavior, and to be a force of light in the world. Gradations of evil exist, and while no mercy can be granted to the demon, hope remains that the greedy merchant or the arrogant king may follow a different path if shown how. The minister -- and the paladin -- leads by example and demonstrates to others the errors of their ways. With this said, puritans of the Flame may be less forgiving and more apt to use violence as a tool to eliminate social evils as well as supernatural forces.

TuggyNE
2013-09-28, 04:00 AM
Not to get bent out of shape about that quote, but the Merchant was the villain

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention that; the titular Merchant was not Shylock, the one being quoted, but Antonio. (The Merchant of Venice is the one Shakespeare play I read in school. Or ever.)

AMFV
2013-09-28, 05:10 AM
Oh, yeah, forgot to mention that; the titular Merchant was not Shylock, the one being quoted, but Antonio. (The Merchant of Venice is the one Shakespeare play I read in school. Or ever.)
I stand corrected, the point still stands, though. I haven't read Merchant of Venice in a very very long time. I did recall it was the villainous speech though.

Seto
2013-09-28, 05:55 AM
A devil or demon would turn to you and say...


I'd laugh at him. They do have affections, senses, passions, etc. but these are not the same as those found in a human being. If you think in terms of "Real alignments", demons are Hedonism incarnate. Nothing else. If they crave Power, that's not because they value it in itself or because they are ambitious and want social recognition, it's because they just get off to it and they want to do what they want without anything limiting them. They are not conflicted. The whole point of humans is to be conflicted and torn between various tendencies, having to make choices. This is the reason your system is good : because humans are not caricatures and they need a nuanced system. Fiends don't : they're not conflicted ; they can be defined by adherence to Hedonism, or Power, but that's all there is to them, really.
In the same way, Celestials cannot understand why one would value hedonism. They see it as evil because they don't get it, they've never felt it, it's just not in their nature. Same with Fiends and benevolence. They laugh at it because they don't get it : they don't understand that it can be a valid choice of life and not only a weakness, because they are unable to ever experience it. By contrast, humans understand both Celestials and Fiends, but they will never be as "purely" aligned as them : they're conflicted.
So Shylock as a human has "passions" ; a devil has "one passion", or "passions" that are all linked to the same group of values.

I agree, the very concept of Paragons is caricatural and far from reality. What else could you expect from the embodiment of a moral concept ? However, I think a fantasy setting needs this kind of caricature. It really adds flavour. For example, one of my favourite things when reading Tolkien is when the Hobbits enter Shelob's lair and they can feel in the air (even apart from the stench xD) that Something utterly evil lives here. (In general, the human mind tends to simplify and incarnate into a pure being different concepts : while not theoretically accurate, it is the point of imagination. Which I like. Aesthetically speaking.)

Then why do Celestial falls and Fiends search redemption ? Well that's mysterious. It's not supposed to happen, really. It's generally because they have known an experience so significant (through contact with a mortal, for example) that it has come to redefine, not only their core values, but their very nature. Enigmatic, huh.

So better keep caricatures as fantasy extremes and really develop the rp side of PCs and PC-races NPC to make them believable. That's my opinion. I'll stop here. I don't want this to become too much of a thread-paralyzing debate (although you can answer if you like, if you feel like a point needs to be made, but I'll probably leave it there), and I'll simply let people say what they think of your idea. Once again, I like it a lot. I'll probably implement it (for players and complex NPCs) when I DM. Thanks man and have fun playing with it ;)

SethoMarkus
2013-10-11, 11:35 AM
This Real Alignments Handbook is definitely a huge step up from the default alignment axes found in the PHB! I think I might try to implement this in the next campaign that I run, as I think it will flow much more nicely with my group.

I do have one contention, though. I absolutely agree with Seto:


They do have affections, senses, passions, etc. but these are not the same as those found in a human being.

Outsiders are not Human. In my eyes, it is bad enough to group the different races of 3.5 together with one type of psychology, but acceptable since these races need to be relate-able to players. Outsiders such as Demons, Celestials, or Elementals, however, should be alien. A mortal Human/Elf/Kobold shouldn't be able to understand the motivations or thought process of an Outsider. We might have vague ideas, such as "Chaos/Indulgence" or "Good/Benevolence", but the specific reasons behind the Celestial's actions remain unknown. It would be like explaining a modern art painting to someone who was born blind. Both people are rational, sentient, intelligent beings, but their experiences are too different to share an understanding of the painting. The blind person may understand the painting as "pretty" or "emotional", but would not be able to understand the painting the same as the non-blind person. Similarly, a mortal Dwarf might understand a Celestial as "Good", but the Celestial experiences "Good" on a much different level.

Though I don't think we need "Chaotic Evil" or "Lawful Good" to identify Outsiders, I also don't think they should be able to experience any alignment shift behavior, even for a half-step. An Earth Elemental simply is not equipped to experience or understand Stimulation or Achievement; it understands Earthiness.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-10-11, 11:50 AM
The way i see it, the old alignment systems is good for mooks who don't need any character, totally one or two dimensional.

For any NPC of any race expected to do any prolonged or repeated interaction with the PCs you need more character depth. These are, for the most part anyway, rational (rational in this case doesn't mean that they think logically or sanely, but act differently based on their motivations) beings with their own goals. Some of them should have alien ways of thinking, but the old alignment system is still too static for major NPCs even if they are outsiders or aberrations.

That's my take on it anyway.

Yahzi
2015-02-01, 03:49 AM
This is a really good, in-depth treatment. It's a bit too in-depth for me, though. I have a simpler system which nonetheless yields some pretty similar results.

Basically, immoral behavior is immoral behavior. It's the same for everyone. We all know what it is: lying, cheating, stealing, etc. However, the alignments differ in who these rules apply to. The more moral you are, the wider the circle of people you have to behave morally to.

NG - everyone, just like your universalism
LG - everyone who abides by the rules (i.e. not just your own nation but creatures of other nations/races that accept international law or custom)
CG - your kin, tribe, race, or society (i.e. people you like)
LE - people who can make you a profit
CE - people you are scared of (people weaker than you deserve virtually no consideration)
NE - nobody (not even yourself. This is the classic psychopath out to destroy the world for no reason)

Haruki-kun
2015-02-01, 12:29 PM
The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.