Rampant speculation on Girard's rune trap

[Sky_Schemer]

After 887 I think some rampant speculation on the nature and purpose of Girard's rune trap is in order because why not.

What is the trap?

Those who enter and are affected by it are placed in a shared dream state which transitions them slowly from reality to the dream. The dream state presents a plausible future for the characters constructed from their memories and knowledge, possibly with a focus on presenting a generally positive vision of their futures. Real knowledge is not ignored however, so we see Belkar die (he was near death already, and there is the Oracle's prophecy...so they all, including Belkar, expected him to die), though there are still fantasy elements such as Durkon being alive instead of dead ("Belkar was lying after all", perhaps, or something similar to that). As with a dream, the shared minds fill in details based on what is known, such as O'Chul and the MitD, etc.

It obviously goes forward quite a ways in time, though the implication here is that trapped persons are experiencing "snapshots" of future events and not all the details in between, and there may be some time compression as well as the dream is showing several days, weeks, possibly months pf events, but the characters are probably not experiencing all of this in real time.

What is its purpose?

It's possibly the last line of defense for the gate. If you can somehow find the place, somehow get past all the illusions, traps, and members of the family defending it, you end up here.

Questions:

Is it supposed to hold people indefinitely, until their real bodies collapse from exhaustion and die of starvation? Or for some set length of time, assuming that surviving Draketooth family can get there and dispatch or detain the intruders?

What happens to the characters when their "lives" end? Specifically, what is Belkar seeing? Does his vision end when he dies, meaning he is seeing and experiencing nothing at all? Or does he see a vision of his own afterlife?

[Sky_Schemer]

I'll speculate on my own speculations because I can.

The dream state is constructed by the people trapped in it. When a person "dies" in the shared dream, they stop contributing to it. This is how Durkon is able to show up alive and unharmed almost immediately: only Belkar knew for sure he was dead and vamped. Without his contributions to the dream state, the others are able to construct a future where he was not dead after all.

[Sethis]

This one's rather easy actually. it seems to be an Arcane Microcosm. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm)

"If microcosm is manifested on an area, it sends all affected creatures into a shared catatonia (the world is a construct, but within the world, the victims can interact with each other)."

[Sky_Schemer]

This one's rather easy actually. it seems to be an Arcane Microcosm. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm)

"If microcosm is manifested on an area, it sends all affected creatures into a shared catatonia (the world is a construct, but within the world, the victims can interact with each other)."

Very nice. I didn't think to look in psionics for a possible answer. I can see someone like Girard working out an epic arcane version of this.

An outstanding question is how long the Order has been standing here. The events depicted span quite a bit of time, but events around them make it unlikely that it's happening in real time. Are we looking at minutes, hours, days...? Anything more than a couple of days would probably mean Belkar's death for real, at least. And Xykon and company would discover them there, too (assuming Xykon is not affected).

[ChaosArchon]

In my opinion Xykon will not be the one to see them first, if he appears in the desert at all. In my opinion either V or LG will see them first and depending on who it is, something very different will happen. I'm going to make a shot in the dark and say the Xykon arrives just as Girard's gate goes KACKAKOOOM! and then it becomes a race in the next book to be the first to get to the gate, and the final book will be the battle through the gate area, ending at the gate. Just my theory but hey, I think it would be good.

[Sky_Schemer]

In my opinion Xykon will not be the one to see them first, if he appears in the desert at all. In my opinion either V or LG will see them first

I think you are right about that.

I assume Durkula and Malack (and Xykon) will not be affected since they are undead, though that does seem like a rather glaring and obvious hole in Girard's defenses. Surely the thought of an undead or some other being immunice to mind-affecting spells occurred to the Draketooths?

Or maybe not. The comic heavily implies that Girard was rather arrogant.

[Sir_Leorik]

I haven't seen many other people mention this, but I realized that one of the biggest dangers the OotS are in right now (besides having Nale shishkabob them) is dying of thirst. They are in a pyramid in the middle of a desert. Even if we assume they've been drinking water up until they entered this room, the rules for thirst are going to kick in a little over 24 hours after the last time they had a drink. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#starvationAndThirst) Suffice to say, that in his current condition, Belkar is looking at 30 hours tops before he starts having to make Constitution checks to avoid taking non-lethal damage from thirst. Eventually, even Roy will have to start making the checks. The power of the phantasm isn't clear, but Belkar didn't break free after being "killed" by Xykon, so it isn't clear if any of them would get a saving throw if they are taking damage from thirst.

[Bulldog Psion]

This one's rather easy actually. it seems to be an Arcane Microcosm. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm)

"If microcosm is manifested on an area, it sends all affected creatures into a shared catatonia (the world is a construct, but within the world, the victims can interact with each other)."

This is eerily similar to the situation we're seeing here. Except, as noted, it's an arcane spell version, probably with epic embellishments.

It's alarming, because the only rescue from it is to have the microcosm cast on the victim again -- and Girard is dead, most likely -- or to have Miracle or wish cast on them.

If this is really the effect they're under, it might actually be easier to get them out of it by letting them die, then resurrecting them. :smalleek: But I don't know if Durkon would do that even after he's freed by Malack in Bleedingham.

[Cheerios623]

I think the spell is designed to show the 'victim' what the future holds if he proceeds down the hallway.

The trap was intended to shows the victim how proceeding to the gate and trying to use/abuse it would lead to the inevitable unmaking of the world by the Snarl and thus dissuade the victim from continuing towards the gate. This epic trap works not through destruction or distraction, but rather through dissuasion.

Therefore the 'visions' the OOTSers are having are all about to come true! I choose to believe it.

[ambartanen]

Edit: Oops, this is in the wrong topic. Moved the actual content but I guess I can't delete the post.

Edit 2: Might as well speculate about the trap. I am not really familiar with psionics but I doubt the trap is nearly as powerful as the linked effect. There is a reason that lvl 9 power doesn't affect creatures with more than 30 hp (for the non-3.5 people out there, that wouldn't affect any member of the OotS unless they were near death- so maybe Belkar right now but definitely not any of the others).

At the very least, the runes seem necessary for maintaining the spell and I assume physically destroying them would release the party. I would also assume the effect persists until the runes are deactivated based on the fact it would make for a better story than someone just making their Will save. If the hallucinations were building up to some sort of climax/confrontation, I could see the spell having some time limit/save opportunity. The way 887 is drawn, though, clearly implies the inoffensive dreams just continue on indefinitely.

[Shred-Bot]

I think you are right about that.

I assume Durkula and Malack (and Xykon) will not be affected since they are undead, though that does seem like a rather glaring and obvious hole in Girard's defenses. Surely the thought of an undead or some other being immunice to mind-affecting spells occurred to the Draketooths?

Or maybe not. The comic heavily implies that Girard was rather arrogant.

Well...
(SoD) It wouldn't be the first time a member of the Order of the Scribble had a giant undead-shaped hole in their defenses. Anti-caster viruses don't work on liches, after all.

[Belkar<3]

This is eerily similar to the situation we're seeing here. Except, as noted, it's an arcane spell version, probably with epic embellishments.

It's alarming, because the only rescue from it is to have the microcosm cast on the victim again -- and Girard is dead, most likely -- or to have Miracle or wish cast on them.

If this is really the effect they're under, it might actually be easier to get them out of it by letting them die, then resurrecting them. :smalleek: But I don't know if Durkon would do that even after he's freed by Malack in Bleedingham.

Maybe V could cast some Abjuration spell to repel illusions or something insane to save them? Or maybe she has Limited Wish?

[Sky_Schemer]

It's alarming, because the only rescue from it is to have the microcosm cast on the victim again -- and Girard is dead, most likely -- or to have Miracle or wish cast on them.

I agree with ambartanen that the runes are probably a necessary component here, so it's not quite as dire as the psionic effect. Maybe the whole thing functions similar to a Symbol spell, only a bit more badass for being epic? Mess up the runes, use a greater dispel, etc.

Having a straight-forward means of disabling it may not be such a huge weakness, either, because the trap seems to function in a manner that ensnares the whole group, leaving no one available to dispel it (assuming most groups Don't Split the Party).

If the LG arrives next, Durkula and Malack will (probably) be free to act while Z and Nale get ensnared. That should create an interesting situation for Malack.

If V gets there, s/he might be able to do something, but of course V has no warning of what s/he is walking into, either.

[Sky_Schemer]

Well...
(SoD) It wouldn't be the first time a member of the Order of the Scribble had a giant undead-shaped hole in their defenses. Anti-caster viruses don't work on liches, after all.

That's a good point. They are defending the gates the best way they know how, but each individual can't defend against all possible attackers. I guess that was the point of each one taking a gate (well, aside from them turning on each other).

[Bulldog Psion]

I agree with ambartanen that the runes are probably a necessary component here, so it's not quite as dire as the psionic effect. Maybe the whole thing functions similar to a Symbol spell, only a bit more badass for being epic? Mess up the runes, use a greater dispel, etc.

That sounds reasonable. I hope it's the case, because microcosm sure is doom with a capital D. :smalleek:

[Nymrod]

May I ask why it'd have to be an epic spell? It could be a 9th level illusion phantasm that mimics microcosm and is a Symbol spell, made permanent with permanency multiple times.

You don't need epic spells to get these effects you know, there are some pretty broken spells out there at far lower levels than 9th:)

[Bartimaeus5]

Has no one considered the option that the spell started in strip #885 and Xykon isn't even there?

[Nymrod]

Has no one considered the option that the spell started in strip #885 and Xykon isn't even there?

I don't think people suggest he is there, but rather that he may well soon be there for real so it's interesting to speculate on how he'd be affected/react.

[ambartanen]

How can Girard have access to 9th-level spells anyway? Sure, he's epic level but he's a bard* so he's limited to 6th level bard spells and maybe some epic spellcasting (not sure how that works, never played epic level myself).

I think this is a (slightly homebrewed variant of the) Programmed Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/programmedImage.htm) spell which is a figment.


A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.)... Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

Technically figments shouldn't make the OotS not see other stuff around them or mess with their perception of time but I think its pretty close to what we are actually seeing. Girard probably just researched a Programmed Phantasm spell.

* At least he's a dual-sword wielding human wearing a chain shirt who seems to only have access to illusion and enchantment spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). I guess he could theoretically be some kind of weird illusionist wizard build but that seems extremely unlikely.

[ReaderAt2046]

How can Girard have access to 9th-level spells anyway? Sure, he's epic level but he's a bard* so he's limited to 6th level bard spells and maybe some epic spellcasting (not sure how that works, never played epic level myself).
* At least he's a dual-sword wielding human wearing a chain shirt who seems to only have access to illusion and enchantment spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). I guess he could theoretically be some kind of weird illusionist wizard build but that seems extremely unlikely.

Girard's a sorcerer who took a couple of levels of Ranger as well. He's called an illusionist because he knows a bunch of illusion spells, not because he's a specialist wizard.

[Nymrod]

The chain shirt is probably mithril as well:) What is that 5% arcane spell failure chance?

[Onyavar]

How can Girard have access to 9th-level spells anyway? Sure, he's epic level but he's a bard* [...]

* At least he's a dual-sword wielding human wearing a chain shirt who seems to only have access to illusion and enchantment spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). I guess he could theoretically be some kind of weird illusionist wizard build but that seems extremely unlikely.

Epic Ranger-illusionist, and he mentioned taking 2 levels as Ranger in the 270ies (Scribble story) so he could have stacked everything else in the illusionist class.


Arcane Microcosm. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm)

Before, I disregarded the possibility that the OotS is caught in a shared dream, because that's not the way that enchantments work in my (limited) experience. Now I'm not entirely convinced, but I can believe it, and also that it's an illusion.
From how I perceived 887, it's just Elans rather naive dream of his own happy ending. There is no indication that they all live in the same illusion however, and I can't imagine what Belkar experiences. Heck, maybe Belkar (!!) is the one who snaps out of it, because he dislikes a happy end.

I speculate that Team Evil and Team Nale and Team Tarquin (as well as V) will arrive at the gate via a different way, and OotS is left out of their fight for the gate. They will only wake up once the gate explodes and the rune trap falls apart.

Or, even better, nobody can find the gate, and the only clue where it is, is in the OotS minds (the buttcheeks, maybe a geographical location), so the evil characters just fight each other for nothing.

[rodneyAnonymous]

There is no indication that they all live in the same illusion however...

I disagree. Things that seem like indications to me:

1) nothing from Belkar's point of view
2) several panels with more than one character getting a piece of their happy ending, e.g. the one with Haley/Elan and Roy/Celia (all three dreamers!)
3) consistent world-state (for example who is alive and in what condition) in all panels
4) "separate visions" explanations of #887 are unnecessarily complicated, "each panel is a different character's illusion" etc.
5) the microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) psionic ability description, which fits most of the effect we see, says "If microcosm is manifested on an area, it sends all affected creatures into a shared catatonia (the world is a construct, but within the world, the victims can interact with each other)." [emphasis added]
6) no objective evidence against a shared dream-world, or for separate dream-worlds

[Shadowknight12]

I disagree. Things that seem like indications to me:

1) nothing from Belkar's point of view
2) several panels with more than one character getting a piece of their happy ending, e.g. the one with Haley/Elan and Roy/Celia (all three dreamers!)
3) consistent world-state (for example who is alive and in what condition) in all panels
4) "separate visions" explanations of #887 are unnecessarily complicated, "each panel is a different character's illusion" etc.
5) the microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) psionic ability description, which fits most of the effect we see, says "If microcosm is manifested on an area, it sends all affected creatures into a shared catatonia (the world is a construct, but within the world, the victims can interact with each other)." [emphasis added]
6) no objective evidence against a shared dream-world, or for separate dream-worlds

It could also be that they're separate illusions, and we're only seeing Roy's. It wouldn't be out of character for him to wish for a happy ending for Elan and Haley, judging on what he knows of them.

[rodneyAnonymous]

It could also be that they're separate illusions, and we're only seeing Roy's. It wouldn't be out of character for him to wish for a happy ending for Elan and Haley, judging on what he knows of them.

It could also be that the entire strip takes place in the mind of a butterfly dreaming of a D&D session. There is no evidence of that.

[Miriel]

Has no one considered the option that the spell started in strip #885 and Xykon isn't even there?
Actually, from what I have read here, I am rather certain that there is some kind of consensus that Xykon is, indeed, not there.

The beginning of the illusion is debatable, but it was either in the last panel of 885 or at some previous undefined moment, possibly even off-panel. Myself, I believe it was in the last pannel of 885. I analysed the evidence to that effect in another topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283226), with limited response, but I'm lazy and don't want to rewrite, so I'll just copy/paste it here, with limited changes.

1. The colours.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/centsfan/Couleurs886.png

The first square is taken from other strips (833 for Xykon, 855 for the OOTS) (or, for the walls and floor, from the panel of 886). The second is from the last panel of 885. The rest are from 886, panel by panel, or blank when I could get the colour. By the way, I also tried to get Elan's vest, and it was consistently the same colour as Roy's tabard/armour.

Obviously, other colours I didn't pick could also have changed. I don't know.

The colours change abruptly for several panels, not by gradient. The most obvious case is the green hilt. They change individually, not at the same time. Notice Xykon's cape and robe, which do not change in the same panel: you can see it clearly on the strip itself. This helps make the change more gradual, even though individual colours themselves change abruptly. Obviously, the more the illusion goes on, the more purple the picture gets.

Not all colours change with the same frequency. Some change four times (hilt, boots), some two (cape, robe). However, most know about three changes. Some changes are hard to see, especially the wall and floors (in 4 and 15?). It is not clear whether colour changes reflect events in the illusion -- or at least, not much. Most colours associated with the same caracter change at different times (Xykon's robe and cape change twice, at one panel's interval, and his crown changes 4 times). Obviously, my sample is flawed, here.

Now, the important story conclusion... The colours in the last panel of 885 are the same as the normal colours. Some colours (Roy's shirt) change starting in the first panel of 886. Since Xykon is not there, this would mean the illusion starts in the first panel of 885 -- thus, Roy's rant would be real.

2. The most obvious proof: the walking order. Haley is first until the 10th panel of 885. However, Roy is shown as entering first in 881, where he pushes the door. Even though I dislike "it happened off-pannel" arguments in general, we know that Haley was supposed to look for traps: presumably, Roy was only pushing the door, and then let Haley go in front of him (as he indeed had asked).

3. They are under the same runes in the last panels of 885 and 886 (Haley and Elan have walked one rune more, Roy has walked one fewer). Obviously, it's probably a regular pattern, but the point is: they are at the same point in that pattern (from the first pannel : [ktmotdmtkkelt-jc]ktmotdb... -- the actual sequence is probably ...-jcktmotdmtkkelt-...). In the 10th pannel, we see a T rune, but it's hard to see where it is in the series, since there are 4 T runes in it (I forgot one when I made the picture).

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/centsfan/Runes886.png


EDIT : Sorry for rehashing basically the same thing over and over. I'm more of a lurker, and I have few things to say, so... yeah.

[rodneyAnonymous]

<snip>

I do not find that convincing. The color change is a signal (to us) that we are leaving the illusion, not that we are entering it. The not-a-message rune sequence is repeating and relatively short, the party's position relative to the runes is not informative.

[Miriel]

The color change is a signal (to us) that we are leaving the illusion, not that we are entering it.
I don't understand what you mean. How are we "leaving" the illusion?

Otherwise, I feel like this could get very repetitive (EDIT: I must take the blame for that, obviously), so I propose we agree to disagree from the start, at least until new information fuels the conversation.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I don't understand what you mean. How are we "leaving" the illusion?

We exit the illusion world and see the real world.

[Miriel]

Oh, you mean the colour change back to normal colours in the last panel of 886? Yes, indeed. But I think it's simpler to see the purple colouring as a sign that we are in the illusion -- even though you'll argue that the illusion can start without purple colouring.

Also, in general, I would expect important events (such as the whole party's being caught in a powerful magical trap) not to happen off-panel, in the very small window of time during which Roy would have been in front. The end of the rant seems a good moment to cut.

[Shale]

The fact that we're getting back into the narrative of the illusion makes me think we're going to see something of real-world significance pop up inside the dream-world - either because the real world does in fact bleed into the dream, or because there is an intelligence controlling it (Memory spirit of girard? I'd buy Xykon's comment as foreshadowing.) and the illusion is how it communicates with intruders.

[Miriel]

The fact that we're getting back into the narrative of the illusion makes me think we're going to see something of real-world significance pop up inside the dream-world - either because the real world does in fact bleed into the dream, or because there is an intelligence controlling it (Memory spirit of girard? I'd buy Xykon's comment as foreshadowing.) and the illusion is how it communicates with intruders.
From a print book point of view, we've seen one double-page of the beginning of the illusion (886) and another of happy ending in the illusion (887-888). For that matter, 882-883 could be yet another, with 884-885 in between -- 883 ends with a surprising last panel, just like 885 and 886, so it's a logically moment to end, just before you turn the page.

I would expect that we will go to something else in the next strip.

[Xelbiuj]

I was going to avoid pointless speculation but Inky showing up was perked my curiosity.

[Finwe]

Given that Haley already knew V was married, it's possible V also showed her a picture/illusion of Inky.

[Demonicbunny]

My seer points are on that it's a shared hallucination (possibly a microcosm).

The reason we haven't seen Belkars happy ending yet is that the traps weakness is the fact that it builds up its happy ending hallucination from the minds of all participants. Girard simply didn't anticipate that it would trap a party with so different alignments.

So once the trap starts to incorporate Belkars thoughts on what a happy ending is the whole illusion will crumble and Belkar will have saved the day.
Not that Belkar is going to benefit from it given how repulsed the rest of the party is going to be.

:roy: :"That's your idea of a happy conclusion?".
:belkar: :"What? Way better than some sappy wedding. And it's not like my finale involved killing a member of the team, unlike some other people"