[PF] Tome of Battle as Archetypes

[Chained Birds]

I brought this idea up (maybe others have thought of this before but whatever) in a thread about PF and 3.5. As many 3.5 players know, the ToB classes always superseded the martial/mundane/semi-mundane core classes, so I got to wonder about PF versions of the ToB and how they would most likely completely replace our old school Fighters and Rogues with relative ease.

But then I thought, why not instead of new classes, the disciples became archetypes for the existing PF martial/mundane/semi-mundane classes? It would probably cost the classes a few class features, but it would make Fighters and Monks less laughable if they behaved like Warblades and Swordsages.

So these were my ideas:

Fighter = Iron Heart / Stone Dragon (Dwarf Only)
- # of Maneuvers/Stances/Recovery Progression: Functions like Warblade
- Trade away: Armor Training, Weapon Training, Bravery.
Paladin = Devoted Spirit
- # of Maneuvers/Stances/Recovery Progression: Functions like Crusader
- Trade away: Spell Casting, Divine Bond, Channel Positive Energy.
Monk = Setting Sun
- # of Maneuvers/Stances/Recovery Progression: Functions like Swordsage Warblade
- Trade Away: Still Mind, Ki Pool, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Empty Body.
Rogue = Shadow Hand / Desert Wind (Ifrit Only)
- # of Maneuvers/Stances/Recovery Progression: Functions like Swordsage
- Trade Away: Sneak Attack Progression at Levels (5, 9, 13, 17), Rogue Talents a Levels (4, 8, 12, 16)
Ranger = Tiger Claw Falling Star
- # of Maneuvers/Stances/Recovery Progression: Functions like Warblade
- Trade Away: Combat Style must be Two-Weapon Archery Combat, Spell Casting, Hunter's Bond.
Cavalier = White Raven
- # of Maneuvers/Stances/Recovery Progression: Functions like Warblade
- Trade Away: Mount, Cavalier's Charge, Expert Trainer, Mighty Charge, Supreme Charge.
Barbarian = Stone Dragon Tiger Claw
- # of Maneuvers/Stances/Recovery Progression: Functions like Warblade
- Trade Away: Rage Powers at Levels (6, 12, 18), Indomitable Will, Tireless Rage, Damage Reduction.

Psychic Warrior or Soulknife = Diamond Mind
- # of Maneuvers/Stances/Recovery Progression: Functions like Crusader
- Trade Away (Psychic Warrior): Warrior Path must be Mind Knight Path or Weaponmaster Path, Secondary Path, Twisting Path, Pathweaving.
- Trade Away (Soulknife): Blade Skills at Levels (6, 12, 18), Psychic Strike.

----

I'm also not the most familiar with ToB, having only played Swordsage for a bit, so any suggestions might be nice.

[RFLS]

Ehh...it looks fairly lackluster, to be honest. The Rogue one in particular is a massive nerf to the already beaten and abused PF Rogue. Really, the whole game would just be better served with a ground-up rework of the listed core classes.

[Snowbluff]

Ehh...it looks fairly lackluster, to be honest. The Rogue one in particular is a massive nerf to the already beaten and abused PF Rogue. Really, the whole game would just be better served with a ground-up rework of the listed core classes.
Yes... like a trio of classes that would replace some of the weaker ones... where could I find something like this? :smalltongue:

[RFLS]

Honestly, I'd prefer complete reworks of the core classes AND the Tome of Battle classes. The classes in ToB were written with the previously existing classes in mind, which leaves them filling roles and leaving roles unfilled if you just drop the core classes and fill in with ToB.

[peacenlove]

We, in our campaign, use this (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update) variant, with the PF modification that rage powers, rogue talents and fighter class abilities are taken at 2/3rds of normal advancement (thinking actually making it 1/2 of normal).
For paladin and ranger it is kinda balanced. For the bard is underpowering. Haven't tested monk, nor will I. Barbarian and rogue are massively improved. Fighter also, but I have tested it only in mock encounters.
Note that at levels 1-3 the difference in power is apparent because of the stances. It becomes less so as the levels increase.

[Morbis Meh]

My GM is allowing me to play as an Inquisitor using swordsage maneuvers instead of casting... should be interesting to play...

[Chained Birds]

Ehh...it looks fairly lackluster, to be honest. The Rogue one in particular is a massive nerf to the already beaten and abused PF Rogue. Really, the whole game would just be better served with a ground-up rework of the listed core classes.

Okay, how about I not remove the Rogue Talent stuff, but the reduced sneak attack remains the same?


We, in our campaign, use this (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update) variant, with the PF modification that rage powers, rogue talents and fighter class abilities are taken at 2/3rds of normal advancement (thinking actually making it 1/2 of normal).
For paladin and ranger it is kinda balanced. For the bard is underpowering. Haven't tested monk, nor will I. Barbarian and rogue are massively improved. Fighter also, but I have tested it only in mock encounters.
Note that at levels 1-3 the difference in power is apparent because of the stances. It becomes less so as the levels increase.

I was hesitant to remove DR from the Barbarian, but I guess removing Rage Powers might be a bit much. So I'll change it up a bit.

[RFLS]

Okay, how about I not remove the Rogue Talent stuff, but the reduced sneak attack remains the same?

If you're dead set on ToB archetypes, then....yeah, I guess. I'd still advise just doing a complete rework.

[Chained Birds]

If you're dead set on ToB archetypes, then....yeah, I guess. I'd still advise just doing a complete rework.

That would require much more knowledge on building a proper class than I am capable of. I felt that Archetypes might be "easier" to work with.

Any suggestions or changes that might fit better? Cause I'm really not the best judge of ToB stuff or how well the disciples mesh with the classes I provided above.

[Tholomyes]

Honestly, I'm surprised that that exact thing is not particularly easy to find on the homebrew forums. People flood it so much with their own, usually rather niche, classes and I've only really been able to find one "upgrade" of a lackluster class, which would be the Monk 2.0, which still, I've found to be underwhelming, somewhat.

[RFLS]

That would require much more knowledge on building a proper class than I am capable of. I felt that Archetypes might be "easier" to work with.

Any suggestions or changes that might fit better? Cause I'm really not the best judge of ToB stuff or how well the disciples mesh with the classes I provided above.

Fair enough. Uhm....I'll list out my thoughts.


Fighter: Decent. Maybe a slight nerf. You could possibly look at delaying Weapon Training instead of losing it, but this is open for debate.

Paladin: Massive nerf. Trading away spellcasting OR the divine bond would be enough.

Monk: Honestly, just give the Monk Setting Sun. If you feel like you have to trade stuff away, leave the Ki pool alone, at least. The monk needs all the help he can get. Additionally, because of the slow refresh mechanic for Swordsage, give the Monk the Warblade recovery mechanic instead.

Rogue: The reason you're getting sneakier is to Sneak Attack. I'd find another way to give them Shadow Hand that doesn't involve fiddling with Sneak Attack.

Ranger: Don't make them give up casting and hunter's bond. Just casting is enough. Additionally, look at the Falling Star (by Fax Celestis) homebrew discipline if you want to give archery rangers something to do.

Cavalier: I dislike this class in general. It's badly designed. That being said, it's designed around having a mount. Perhaps trade out just the challenges for access to White Raven. Maybe the teamwork feats, too.

Barbarian: Uh-uh. No. Stone Dragon stances generally require you to be stationary to gain their benefit. Barbarians have a bonus to move speed. This generates a massive problem. I'd honestly recommend Tiger Claw for Barbarians. Most of its maneuvers don't rely on TWF, but they do rely on moving fast. If you want somewhere to put Stone Dragon, go check out giving it to the Paladin for free, or perhaps the Dwarf Paladin archetype.

[Karoht]

Early number crunches suggest that (cherry picked) ToB maneuvers and stances greatly augment existing characters and their existing archetypes.
But to use them directly as archetypes? Hmmm. Interesting idea. I think this needs much more development as a concept.

[Chained Birds]

Fair enough. Uhm....I'll list out my thoughts.


Fighter: Decent. Maybe a slight nerf. You could possibly look at delaying Weapon Training instead of losing it, but this is open for debate.

Nah, it wasn't too much of a boost to begin with, and I'd rather hit this than their bonus feats or something. Might give them back Bravery though.

Paladin: Massive nerf. Trading away spellcasting OR the divine bond would be enough.

Meh, he can keep his Horse/Sword. Though Channel Energy and Spells are no good.

Monk: Honestly, just give the Monk Setting Sun. If you feel like you have to trade stuff away, leave the Ki pool alone, at least. The monk needs all the help he can get. Additionally, because of the slow refresh mechanic for Swordsage, give the Monk the Warblade recovery mechanic instead.

I'll leave the Ki Pool alone. I thought that was a bit much. :smalltongue:
Warblade Recovery, sure! I just picked Swordsage because of the usual "Just pick Swordsage" thing whenever someone mentions monks.

Rogue: The reason you're getting sneakier is to Sneak Attack. I'd find another way to give them Shadow Hand that doesn't involve fiddling with Sneak Attack.

I really can't think of anything to get rid... Doesn't Shadow Hand have a stance that gives you +2d6 Sneak Attack anyways?

Ranger: Don't make them give up casting and hunter's bond. Just casting is enough. Additionally, look at the Falling Star (by Fax Celestis) homebrew discipline if you want to give archery rangers something to do.

I saw the homebrew, but was actually saving that for the Gunslinger, before I realized it was hopeless. The Ranger's Hawk can stay!

Cavalier: I dislike this class in general. It's badly designed. That being said, it's designed around having a mount. Perhaps trade out just the challenges for access to White Raven. Maybe the teamwork feats, too.

I was actually trying to remove the Mount stuff so it wouldn't have to worry about the usual mount issues and just focus on challenging and support stuff.

Barbarian: Uh-uh. No. Stone Dragon stances generally require you to be stationary to gain their benefit. Barbarians have a bonus to move speed. This generates a massive problem. I'd honestly recommend Tiger Claw for Barbarians. Most of its maneuvers don't rely on TWF, but they do rely on moving fast. If you want somewhere to put Stone Dragon, go check out giving it to the Paladin for free, or perhaps the Dwarf Paladin archetype.

I really didn't want to overlook Barbarian... I guess I'll go with my last idea for Stone Dragon.

I'll post some edits.

[Keneth]

I don't think ToB classes can be effectively worked in as archetypes. It's like making a sorcerer archetype that doesn't use spells. Fundamental changes like that constitute a new class, or a completely reworked existing class. Personally, I recreated the assassin as a base class from scratch, and gave it maneuvers (some from ToB and many new ones), and I must say it's a whole lot more fun to play than either the rogue or ninja. I've been considering a remake of existing base classes in a similar fashion, but every time I entertain the thought, I come to the same conclusion: If I'm just gonna change half the system, I might as well use a better one and save myself the trouble. It's just not worth the time and effort.

[grarrrg]

OOOH! OOH! PICK ME! PICK ME!!

Well, half pick me....Similar topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252678) from about 9 months ago.
(Please no Threadcomancy, think of the children)

[Chained Birds]

OOOH! OOH! PICK ME! PICK ME!!

Well, half pick me....Similar topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252678) from about 9 months ago.
(Please no Threadcomancy, think of the children)

Interesting Thread, I was going to google ToB conversions to PF. Saved me the trouble.