mystic theurge and cerebremancer

[flamewolf393]

I have to ask. How is this in ANY way a balanced prestige class? Casters are already top tier, this gives you two caster levels for one.

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serious question
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Not quite so serious part, beware the munchkin.
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V
On and off I am part of a high power gestalt campaign. Let us make the logical conclusion of this blatant power trip. Feel free to give any advice on altering this to make it even stupider.

1: wiz1/clr1
2: wiz/psi = w2/c1/p1
3: c/p = w2/c2/p2
4: w/c = w3/c3/p2
5: mt/p = w4/c4/p3
6: mt/cm = w6/c5/p4
7: mt/cm = w8/c6/p5
8: mt/cm = w10/c7/p6
9: mt/cm = w12/c8/p7
10: mt/cm = w14/c9/p8
11: mt/cm = w16/c10/p9
12: mt/cm = w18/c11/p10 <- can now cast level 9 arcane
13: mt/cm = w20/c12/p11 <- wizard 20 cap.

Since I will not have the skill point ranks to go into epic casting I wont bother putting the wizard into epic levels yet. At this point I will assume there is an equivalent prc for cleric/psion. If not making one would be a logical extension of these two classes. I will just call it divine psion for now.

14: dp/clr = w20/c14/p12
15: dp/clr = w20/c16/p13
16: dp/clr = w20/c18/p14 <- level 9 divine spells
17: dp/psi = w20/c19/p16
18: dp/psi = w20/c20/p18 <- cleric cap, level 9 psionics
19: cm/psi = w21/c20/p20
20: mt/dp = w22/c22/p21 <- 3 epic level classes at level 20.

21: cm/dp = w23/c23/p23 <- Skill ranks are now high enough to take the epic casting feats. Go to town.

[thethird]

There are some wrong things with this.

To point just two:

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level [..] Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes.

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

So basically yeah.

[Careless]

Well, gestalt is already pretty strong. And in gestalt, a prestige class fills up both sides of the gestalt at once.
Edit: Ninja-d.

[flamewolf393]

I was unaware of the prc rule, as the rare gestalt games I've been in have never mentioned/enforced it. I shall edit the build appropriately then.:smallfrown:

[SaintRidley]

Well, you don't get to take prestige classes on both sides of a gestalt under normal ruling.

You also don't get to use theurge classes (like Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer) in gestalt at all.

So, there's your answer.

[flamewolf393]

I would still like the answer to my serious question though. In a normal game, how are these prc's in any way balanced? You are still getting two full caster levels for one.

[thethird]

You are getting them 3 levels later.

High level spells >>> Low level spells

You also have the same actions

Standard action 5th level spells >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 standard action 2nd level spell

This classes <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Going straight caster

This classes <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< PrCing into something with good/useful class features.

[RFLS]

They're balanced because they generally require you to be very behind on both sides of the progression. So, if you've got a Wizard 7/Cleric 3/MT 10, you're casting as a 17th level Wizard and a 13th level Cleric. You're a spell level and a half behind on the wizard side, and even worse on the cleric side. It tends to be much weaker than just going straight Wizard.

[SaintRidley]

Because you're at least three levels behind on both sides. As a Wiz3/Cleric3/MT3, you cast like a level 6 cleric and a level 6 wizard. You could be casting like a level 9 of either of those, though, which is way better. In short, theurge classes actually make you less powerful. You only get one set of actions a turn, after all, so you have to pick. If you got twice as many actions per turn, then it might work out to a wash. Maybe.

[Malimar]

Since others have already given the several reasons why the build in your not-so-serious question doesn't work, I'll tackle the serious one:

Dual-progression casters are actually, in general, seen as subpar. The reason is this:

Without early-entry cheese, the tradeoff of mystic theurge is that you almost double your spells per day, at the cost of losing 3 or 4 class levels in each casting class, which leaves you one or two spell levels behind where you normally would be. At level 9, when a wizard is casting level 5 spells, a standard wizard 3/archivist 3/mystic theurge 3 is still maxing out at 3rds.

In any campaign that allows a 15-minute adventuring day (which is to say, most of them), the number of spells per day you get isn't important. But getting higher level spells as early as possible is among the most important things for caster optimization (to the extent that the first rule of practical optimization is Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels).

(The exceptions are when you use early entry to not lose so many spell levels, or when you mix them with fast-progression prestige classes like ur-priest or sublime chord. Either of which, to some DMs, is fine, high-quality gouda.)

EDIT: You see the three posts that swordsaged me? They're pure wizards, getting fewer words, sooner. You see me? I'm a wizard/archivist, getting more words, but too late. In this metaphor for practical optimization, getting words sooner is more important than getting more words.

[dascarletm]

EDIT: You see the three posts that swordsaged me? They're pure wizards, getting fewer words, sooner. You see me? I'm a wizard/archivist, getting more words, but too late. In this metaphor for practical optimization, getting words sooner is more important than getting more words.

You sir are brilliant.

[mregecko]

I have to ask. How is this in ANY way a balanced prestige class? Casters are already top tier, this gives you two caster levels for one.

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serious question


To answer your other question Re: Mystic Theurge and Cerbremancer balance... Most people initially get very excited about these two classes.

However, they don't realize that the extra spell slots and a second spell list don't really make up for the lost spell level (from standard entry) and class features.

A 17th level wizard (much less one with prestige classes) will usually outshine a 17th level (wiz3/cleric3/MT10/Whatever...) who has no 9th level spells and no class features.

Even at 20th level, where you can potentially get 17th level (arcane or divine) and 13th level (divine or arcane), you're getting capstones from nice prestige classes as a cleric or wizard. Not to mention more 9th level spells per day, which is where the $$$ is at.

3 lost spell levels is a huge deal, basically.

EDIT: Ninja'd, so hard.

[Vaz]

1) Gestalt disallows Theurge Classes
2) Gestalt disallows dual Prestige Classes
3) You are 3 levels behind in spell progression
4) You are 3 caster levels behind.
5) You lack the bonus spells (MAD)
6) You sacrifice feats for early entry.
7) You sacrifice feats for two uses of Practised Spellcaster.
8) More 9ths outweighs more 1st level spell slots.
9) If someone can cope with a Tier 1 class being purposefully used to break a class, they are easily able to cope with a "gestalted".
10) More spell-slots is okay, but usually the action economy blocks the usage of most spells like so.
11) It is more broken when used in conjunction with Dual 9th Builds.

[SaintRidley]

1) Gestalt disallows Theurge Classes
2) Gestalt disallows dual Prestige Classes
3) You are 3 levels behind in spell progression
4) You are 3 caster levels behind.
5) You lack the bonus spells (MAD)
6) You sacrifice feats for early entry.
7) You sacrifice feats for two uses of Practised Spellcaster.
8) More 9ths outweighs more 1st level spell slots.
9) If someone can cope with a Tier 1 class being purposefully used to break a class, they are easily able to cope with a "gestalted".
10) More spell-slots is okay, but usually the action economy blocks the usage of most spells like so.
11) It is more broken when used in conjunction with Dual 9th Builds.

12) If I'm your DM, you wasted your time trying early entry, because that just doesn't fly in my games.

I'm sure we could get this list up to twenty items.

[eggynack]

13) There's a high opportunity cost to being a mystic theurge. While you faff about with dual progression, you could have just gone incantrix or initiate of the sevenfold veil and done much better for yourself. You don't have to go that far for there to be a cost either. Just about any class features you would have gotten by taking master specialist or mage of the arcane order is a serious loss to any given build.

[Snails]

Mystic Theurge is really sub-par below 10th level. 4th level spells in two classes is okayish compared to 5th level in one class. A smart powergamer will never take this option, but it perfectly viable.

Cerebremancer has a bit more potential because you can push up Int sky high and get benefits in two classes. In particular, one can burn through those PPs as swift actions, which can mitigate some of loss of higher level slots.

[Malimar]

5) You lack the bonus spells (MAD)

Cerebremancer has a bit more potential because you can push up Int sky high and get benefits in two classes.

Certain combinations are less MAD than others.

Wizard/archivist, beguiler/archivist, wu jen/archivist, wizard/psion, beguiler/psion, wu jen/psion, and archivist/psion are all mostly INT.

Sorcerer/favored soul, sorcerer/shugenja, warmage/favored soul, warmage/shugenja, dread necromancer/favored soul, dread necromancer/shugenja, sorcerer/wilder, warmage/wilder, dread necromancer/wilder, favored soul/wilder, and shugenja/wilder are even less optimal than most of the INT-based combinations (because they tend to have slower progression already, the negative effects of which are only exacerbated by theurging), but are at least mostly CHA-dependent.

Also, there's allegedly sha'ir/sha'ir, but that's pretty pretty potent casu marzu.

[Phelix-Mu]

Straight full caster or caster into good casting PrC are both superior to theurging in every way but thematically. If some person wants to be able to be the wizard and the healbot, well, go ahead and let them. These dual-casting progression classes aren't overpowered, they just have a way of looking that way (especially to inexperienced DMs...I myself have fallen prey to this in the past).

And the fact is that if either of the base classes is Tier 1, then optimization can probably bring that theurge back up to the standard of many other character builds that aren't particularly high-op.

It's not impossible to match up to the rest of the party as a theurge. It's just impossible for the theurge to match up with the version of the same character that stuck to one casting class.

[Flickerdart]

There are certain cases where theurging is worth it. If one side of the theurge is a fast-progression class (Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest, Apostle of Peace, Divine Crusader, Nar Demonbinder) then you can actually get nines faster than a straight caster, while paying fewer levels for the privilege. For instance, a Wizard 5/Alchemist Savant 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Alchemist Savant 4 gets 9th level Ur-Priest spells at level 15, two levels earlier than everyone else, and only loses two levels of Wizard casting for the privilege.

However, it's still quite a trade-off - wizard casting is generally considered to be more powerful than cleric spells, you lose a couple of feats on qualifying, and you can't get any class features because you're stuck with those Mystic Theurge levels. And while you get nines earlier, a straight caster is ahead of you from level 7 (when they have 4th level spells and you don't) all the way to level 12 (when your Ur-Priest side finally catches up). Then you're ahead by a spell level for levels 14-16, after which the straight casters also hit 9th level spells.

And then there's material like Psiotheurgist which cracks the whole thing wide open.

[Ramza00]

I would still like the answer to my serious question though. In a normal game, how are these prc's in any way balanced? You are still getting two full caster levels for one.

Here is a breakdown for non gestalt (for gestalt your idea still would not work for mystic theurge is recommended ban in gestalt according to UA). I am assuming the traditional wizard/archivist mystic theurge entry, it is more sad if it is wizard/cleric.

10th Level Build, 24 Int (18 Base Int+2 Levels+4 Item), 14 Wisdom
Assuming Conjuration Specialist Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 4
vs
Conjuration Specialist Wizard 5/Full Spellcasting Prestige Class 5

Mystic Theurge (Casts as a 7th Level Wizard and 7th Level Archivist)
5 Total 4th Level Spells (3 Wizard 4th Level Spells+2 Archivist 4th Level Spells)
8 Total 3rd Level Spells (5 Wizard 3rd Level Spells+3 Archivist 3rd Level Spells)
11 Total 2nd Level Spells (6 Wizard 2nd Level Spells+5 Archivist 2nd Level Spells)
13 Total 1st Level Spells (7 Wizard 1st Level Spells+6 Archivist 1st Level Spells)


vs

4 5th Level Spells
5 4th Level Spells
6 3rd Level Spells
7 2nd Level Spells
7 1st Level Spells

So lets see the Conjuration Wizard has
4 Additional 5th Level Spells
the same amount of 4th Level Spells
2 Less 3rd Level Spells
4 Less 2nd Level Spells
6 Less 1st Level Spells

Furthermore the Wizard has 3 higher caster level than the mystic theurge, or he is 1 feat higher than the mystic theurge. Furthermore he can take a wizard prestige class when the mystic theurge can not.

Are you telling me a 10th level character would give up the awesomeness that is

Teleport
Wall of Stone
Telekinesis
Dominate Person

in exchange for 2 more Fireballs, 4 scorching rays, 6 burning hands?

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How about this
4 5th level Pearls of Power cost 25,000 gp so in gp cost 4 5th level spells cost about 100,000 gp

2 3rd Level Pearl of Power=18,000 gp
4 4th Level Pearl of Power=16,000 gp
6 1st Level Pearl of Power=6,000 gp
thus your total equivalent gp cost is 40000 gp

[Feint's End]

As partially mentioned there are more than on reason why they shouldn't be considerd overpowered.
I argue that without early entry they are actually subpar and just early entry brings those classes to a playable level. Why? Even with early entry you need to spend ressources on getting it, getting the feats for the classes and practised spellcaster/manifester. Not to forget you loose out on the great classfeatures you could get from other PRCs. (Noteable exception might be the Arcane Hierophant)

Even an early entry caster with wizard and cleric cl 19 is just soso compared to a straight wizard with good prcs or a dmm persist cleric for example.

So yeah ... I allow early entry in my games for that reason ... especially if you want to go into a theurg build.

[eggynack]

Ooh, I think I just remembered another one that hasn't been seriously considered yet.
14) Mystic theurge is a ten level class, and for the standard wizard/cleric build, there's nothing to advance it past that. Sure, there's arcane heirophant for wizard/druid, and you can probably take one of those "class advancement" classes to go further, but for the most part you're out of luck. The uncheesy build goes wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 10, but then you have 4 levels in which nothing is happening. Do you just take wizard or a wizard equivalent for those levels? The cheesy entry is, if anything, even worse. Now the build looks like wizard 1/cleric 3/ mystic theurge 10, and there's 6 levels just sitting there and not advancing both classes. It's a real blind spot to standard theurge builds.

[NamelessNPC]

"Dual casting" classes can be used in gestalt without problems, provided you get all the casting from the same side of your gestalt. The problem with your proposed build is that you have levels of the 3 base classes in both your gestalt sides, and that is not how it works.

Having a Wiz3/Psi3/Cm10//Whatever10 is perfectly fine.

Edit: Perfectly fine in the sense that Cerebremancer itself is a "perfectly fine" PrC, even if a bit lacking in the raw power department

[Vaz]

No they can't. It specifically calls out the Theurge as not allowed.

[BWR]

Where classes like the Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer really shine are when you play games that have a strict in-game deadline, meaning you are more likely to waste all your power before resting, and versatility.
The one game we had with an MT, the single class wizard was a better blaster/control, the single-classed cleric was a better healer/buff, but the MT could to both, had tons of utility spells and could keep at it just about twice as long. He was great support and a valuable member of the party.

The strength of double-casting classes is versatility, so build and play to that strength.

[Phelix-Mu]

Where classes like the Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer really shine are when you play games that have a strict in-game deadline, meaning you are more likely to waste all your power before resting, and versatility.
The one game we had with an MT, the single class wizard was a better blaster/control, the single-classed cleric was a better healer/buff, but the MT could to both, had tons of utility spells and could keep at it just about twice as long. He was great support and a valuable member of the party.

The strength of double-casting classes is versatility, so build and play to that strength.

Not a bad sentiment. There is an often erroneous assumption that players run the time table of encounters for their characters past a certain level. While this is often true, there is nothing that stops the DM from running events in the campaign world at a rate faster than the 15 minute adventuring day. That many high-level campaigns run without DMs forcing the party members to cope with compressed timelines is...well, in my mind it's weird. Time is one of the few things that DMs (READ: DMs with the good sense not to allow plane hopping between planes with differing Time traits) have going for them that players really can't touch, even at high level.

Theurging definitely results in more spells. Not always useful, but hey, endurance missions are a thing. And a favorite tactic of mine.

[Tulya]

Technically, Unearthed Arcana's section on Gestalt actually says, "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations ... should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes", rather than that they are prohibited.

I'd actually argue that Theurgic gestalts aren't really a problem for the same reason that double caster gestalts aren't that popular: A single class full spellcaster already has enormous amounts of power. Prepared spellcasters have flexibility to match, and all full spellcasters have ample endurance in the mid to end-game. Adding more spellcasting progressions provides increasingly redundant power, flexibility, and staying power.

[Chronos]

Quoth Ramza00:

Here is a breakdown for non gestalt (for gestalt your idea still would not work for mystic theurge is recommended ban in gestalt according to UA). I am assuming the traditional wizard/archivist mystic theurge entry, it is more sad if it is wizard/cleric.

10th Level Build, 24 Int (18 Base Int+2 Levels+4 Item), 14 Wisdom
Assuming Conjuration Specialist Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 4
vs
Conjuration Specialist Wizard 5/Full Spellcasting Prestige Class 5
...And this is actually being kind to the Mystic Theurge. At an even-numbered level, the straight wizard has one full level of spells that the Mystic Theurge lacks entirely. At an odd-numbered level, though, he has two full levels of spells that the theurge lacks. At 11th level, say, that wizard will have 5th and 6th level spells, while the theurge still tops out at 4ths.

[morkendi]

I don't see a problem if a player wanted to do thus as the action economy is only going to let so much happen. I think he would be versatile, but not over powered. The truly overpowered builds use classes that have stackable abilities. For example sorcerer/ scout focused on rays and such. Adding skirmish damage on top of spells. You can even go warlock scout, and do tons with your eldritch blast.

[eggynack]

I don't see a problem if a player wanted to do thus as the action economy is only going to let so much happen. I think he would be versatile, but not over powered. The truly overpowered builds use classes that have stackable abilities. For example sorcerer/ scout focused on rays and such. Adding skirmish damage on top of spells. You can even go warlock scout, and do tons with your eldritch blast.
Those builds aren't overpowered at all. Well, they are, but only to the extent that the sorcerer one has sorcerer levels. Damaging spells have just about nothing to do with the casting class' placement on the tier list, and a higher amount of casting has just about everything to do with it. To this end, sorcerer10/sorcerer10 is probably the strongest sorcerer build that doesn't use prestige classes. With prestige classes, you can obviously do better. Additionally, you can probably do better for damage as a sorcerer going full sorcerer anyway. The mailman build is basically just sorcerer and sorcerer accessories, and deals crazy damage.

[morkendi]

Their are better builds by far, I am just saying the best gestalt builds have abilities that complement each other. My fealing is that stacking wiz/cleric and such are still viable because of the core classes, but the actions per round are only going to let you do onr thing. You get versatility, but that's it. I would rather do sorcerer or wizard scout, or ranger/ druid.

[eggynack]

Their are better builds by far, I am just saying the best gestalt builds have abilities that complement each other. My fealing is that stacking wiz/cleric and such are still viable because of the core classes, but the actions per round are only going to let you do onr thing. You get versatility, but that's it. I would rather do sorcerer or wizard scout, or ranger/ druid.
You're going to have to clarify things a bit then. Sorcerer/scout is a build with some sorcerer levels and some scout levels. What you're looking for, if we're talking gestalt, is sorcerer//scout. The // indicates gestalt. In any case, in a gestalt, wizard//cleric suffers from some of the same problems as wizard 3/cleric 3/ mystic theurge 10 does in a normal game. You're significantly MAD, and the action economy is a problem. Your sorcerer//scout and warlock//scout builds are ok, but I'd really rather put together something where the passive class was really giving the active class something. The most powerful gestalt is probably wizard//factotum for all of those stated reasons. There's likely a cheese build out there that gets 9's in everything, but wizard//factotum can compete with most things out there. Warlock//scout will never overpower anything really. They kinda do a little damage I guess, but you're not outdamaging dedicated melee builds, and you don't have much versatility.

[Ramza00]

And this is actually being kind to the Mystic Theurge. At an even-numbered level, the straight wizard has one full level of spells that the Mystic Theurge lacks entirely. At an odd-numbered level, though, he has two full levels of spells that the theurge lacks. At 11th level, say, that wizard will have 5th and 6th level spells, while the theurge still tops out at 4ths.

You are correct, I was using the best case scenario of the mystic theurge for simplicity sake. (Showing how gimped mystic theurge is, showing even on the best day he just sucks compared to a real wizard or a real archivist)

For example at level 9 you can only cast 3rd level spells with the mystic theurge while a normal wizard is throwing out about 3 5th level spells per day (specialist, bonus spell, 1 base).

[morkendi]

You're going to have to clarify things a bit then. Sorcerer/scout is a build with some sorcerer levels and some scout levels. What you're looking for, if we're talking gestalt, is sorcerer//scout. The // indicates gestalt. In any case, in a gestalt, wizard//cleric suffers from some of the same problems as wizard 3/cleric 3/ mystic theurge 10 does in a normal game. You're significantly MAD, and the action economy is a problem. Your sorcerer//scout and warlock//scout builds are ok, but I'd really rather put together something where the passive class was really giving the active class something. The most powerful gestalt is probably wizard//factotum for all of those stated reasons. There's likely a cheese build out there that gets 9's in everything, but wizard//factotum can compete with most things out there. Warlock//scout will never overpower anything really. They kinda do a little damage I guess, but you're not outdamaging dedicated melee builds, and you don't have much versatility.

I agree, all I am saying is that when you build a gestalt character, chose classes that complement each other. Gestalt was made for a party with few players to help fill out the tools for the group, but it is still possible to spread yourself to thin. A wizard// cleric build or such is only going to act as a wizard or cleric each round. Its OK if you get to buff before combat, but cleric to me pairs up better with a combat oriented character. I am by no means a gestalt master, as we just started doing it this year. Yes the wizard//factorum Is probably most powerful. My character in game right now is wiz/Iniciate of the seven fold// scout with a couple levels in ranger. I can solo most lvl appropriate encounters myself if I choose, but I hold back to let the others do stuff. We have a cleric/ radient servant// monk and a warrior/ barbarian// bard.