Favored soul and shugenja arent tier 1?

[Devronq]

Favored soul and shugenja arent tier 1? I can see how there arent as good as wiz/sor/clr/druid but why exactly aren't they tier 1? Also are their other classes with lv.9 casting that arent teir 1? ty

[mregecko]

Favored soul and shugenja arent tier 1? I can see how there arent as good as wiz/sor/clr/druid but why exactly aren't they tier 1? Also are their other classes with lv.9 casting that arent teir 1? ty

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

[RaggedAngel]

Favored soul and shugenja arent tier 1? I can see how there arent as good as wiz/sor/clr/druid but why exactly aren't they tier 1? Also are their other classes with lv.9 casting that arent teir 1? ty

Sorcerer is not Tier 1 either. To put it simply, any spellcasting class that has ninth level spells, can select from a very broad range of spells, but cannot change its spell selection on a day to day basis is considered Tier 2.

[thethird]

Because tier 1 doesn't mean 9th level spells.

Tier one means the ability to change the 9th level spells in a daily basis to adapt and solve every possible situations.

Classes with a subset of a larger spellcasting, such as favored soul (who picks spells from the cleric list) are tier 2, because they can access the tier 1 tricks, but not all of them at the same time or change them.

Classes with a fixed spellcasting are normally going to have lower tiers. Beguiler is a solid tier 3 while healer (who also gets 9) is tier 5.

[Tholomyes]

I'm pretty sure one of the requirements for Tier 1 is prepared casting, which is what makes Favored Soul, shugenja and Sorc tier 2

[Jack_Simth]

I'm pretty sure one of the requirements for Tier 1 is prepared castingNot exactly; an Erudite is tier-1, and doesn't prepare.

The big distinction is being able to swap tricks on a daily basis. The Sorcerer or Favored Soul is mostly stuck with their spell selection (barring Magic/Psionics transparency and duplicating Psychic Reformation at the drop of a hat), but the wizard, cleric, and druid can change out their loadout tomorrow if they find their spell selection wasn't so grand.

[Just to Browse]

I'm pretty sure one of the requirements for Tier 1 is prepared casting, which is what makes Favored Soul, shugenja and Sorc tier 2

To add another bit to what Jack said, note the Healer (Miniature's Handbook). Oh that is a terrible class.

Prepared casting helps because it gives flexibility, but you can still suck without it!

[Grod_The_Giant]

The T1 casters are the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Archivist-- all with 9th level spells, and enormous spell lists, and the ability to change their list of spells known each day.

The T2 casters are the Sorcerer and Favored Soul. They can pick any of the most broken spells, but they can't easily change their list.

The Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and probably Shugenja are T3-- their list is limited in both number of spells and thematically.

Warmage is generally put at T4, because while it has the same basic structure as the above classes, their list is too heavily combat-focused.

Healer is T5, because its list is even less useful than the Warmage's.

[Amphetryon]

The T1 casters are the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Archivist-- all with 9th level spells, and enormous spell lists, and the ability to change their list of spells known each day.

The T2 casters are the Sorcerer and Favored Soul. They can pick any of the most broken spells, but they can't easily change their list.

The Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and probably Shugenja are T3-- their list is limited in both number of spells and thematically.

Warmage is generally put at T4, because while it has the same basic structure as the above classes, their list is too heavily combat-focused.

Healer is T5, because its list is even less useful than the Warmage's.
This looks right to me. I think Wu Jen is typically lumped into T2 also, due to its lack of support/versatility. Shugenja's spell list is too limited between support and the forced Order specialization to reach the "game breaking" abilities of T2 on its own merits; any game in which it appears to tickle T2 has enough other tricks available that every other Class in play is also boosted so the increase isn't significant.

[Seer_of_Heart]

This looks right to me. I think Wu Jen is typically lumped into T2 also, due to its lack of support/versatility. Shugenja's spell list is too limited between support and the forced Order specialization to reach the "game breaking" abilities of T2 on its own merits; any game in which it appears to tickle T2 has enough other tricks available that every other Class in play is also boosted so the increase isn't significant.

Eh in my opinion Wu Jen is T1 for being able to pull off tricks to add spells to its class list and then being able to change form day to day to satisfy T1. It also unofficially gets more spells from the spell compendium suggesting to add element themed spells to their list.

[137beth]

I'm pretty sure one of the requirements for Tier 1 is prepared casting, which is what makes Favored Soul, shugenja and Sorc tier 2

No. Certain subsystems are not prerequisites for any tier. In fact, I'm going to make a tier 1 class with no casting at all right now:

The generic super tier 1
In every world, there are people who think they are powerful. But all pale compared to me.
Skill points per level: As many as there are skills (all skills maxed, all the time)
Class skills: all of them
BAB: Good
Alignment: any
Saves: All good
Class features:
Be Awesome (not su or ex, just awesome): Starting at level 1, the Generic Super Tier 1 gains the ability to do almost anything they want. At any time, you can make up rules/powers concerning your character. You can give yourself any power you can think of, without an action, regardless of who's turn it is. It does not matter how powerful these abilities are--you could give yourself the power to instantly destroy every deity in the universe, with no action required. There are only three restrictions:
1. You cannot gain official spellcasting. You can gain abilities which are functionally identical to wizard/cleric/druid spells, but you cannot call them spells. Then you can laugh at anyone who is foolish enough to think that spells, or even subsystems, are required for true power.
2. You cannot override the "Be Awesome" ability of another Generic Super Tier 1 with a GST1 level equal to or greater than your own.
3. You cannot make up rules which alter or bypass restrictions 1, 2, or this one.
The big distinction between tier 1 and tier 2 is versatility. A sorcerer or favored soul, if they pick spells well, can handle most situations that are thrown at them. However, there will usually be some things that they can't handle (if fully optimized, especially at higher levels, the sorcerer can move up to tier 1 with general use OP spells, but almost any class can more up with enough optimization.)

[Kuulvheysoon]

The T1 casters are the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Archivist-- all with 9th level spells, and enormous spell lists, and the ability to change their list of spells known each day.

The T2 casters are the Sorcerer and Favored Soul. They can pick any of the most broken spells, but they can't easily change their list.

The Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and probably Shugenja are T3-- their list is limited in both number of spells and thematically.

Warmage is generally put at T4, because while it has the same basic structure as the above classes, their list is too heavily combat-focused.

Healer is T5, because its list is even less useful than the Warmage's.

IIRC, Spirit Shaman (CD) are generally lumped in as low-mid T2, for the sole fact that they have so few retrieved spells per day.

Psions are T2, as are Ardents, while poor, poor Wilders are high T3s. Erudites are T1, while StP Erudites are T0, I believe.

[holywhippet]

The T1 casters are the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Archivist-- all with 9th level spells, and enormous spell lists, and the ability to change their list of spells known each day.


Shouldn't the archivist be considered as being Tier 0 since their possible list of known spells is arguably every single spell in D&D (depending on how you interpret the rules)? It only falls behind cleric because it doesn't allow for the turn undead metaspell tricks.

[Jack_Simth]

Shouldn't the archivist be considered as being Tier 0 since their possible list of known spells is arguably every single spell in D&D (depending on how you interpret the rules)? It only falls behind cleric because it doesn't allow for the turn undead metaspell tricks.
Nah. It's just a higher tier-1. It still has the same basic limitations.

[Jeff the Green]

Shouldn't the archivist be considered as being Tier 0 since their possible list of known spells is arguably every single spell in D&D (depending on how you interpret the rules)? It only falls behind cleric because it doesn't allow for the turn undead metaspell tricks.

Doesn't matter. It's potentially the most versatile of Tier 1, but still tier 1.

Edit: Contingencied!

[137beth]

But do we have a case that my Generic Super Tier 1 class might really be tier 0? I mean, it isn't restricted to the action economy (it's sole class feature uses no action, does not require it to be your turn, and can give you any other action-less power you can think of). It doesn't have the wizard's restriction of having to plan ahead of time, it can just say "I give my self the power to automatically win, then I use that power." Since "automatically winning" technically isn't a spell, it is RAW based on how I wrote it.
The GST1 also isn't limited by spells/day. Or really anything. Thoughts?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Shouldn't the archivist be considered as being Tier 0 since their possible list of known spells is arguably every single spell in D&D (depending on how you interpret the rules)? It only falls behind cleric because it doesn't allow for the turn undead metaspell tricks.
Yup- it's a better T1, but still falls under "Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing."

I'm not sure that T0 even exists, truth be told. I've heard stuff like the Beholder Mage (learns spells like a wizard, casts spontaneous from the entire list, and can cast 10 spells/round before action economy shenanigans), but PrCs don't really count, but that's still only "capable of doing everything, but EVEN BETTER than the wizard." Maybe Pun-Pun is T0-- "You don't even have a character sheet, just a piece of paper that says 'yes.'"

No, wait. T0 is the DM!

[Xervous]

It is generally my understanding that T0 builds off of what a T1 is defined by: adding on even greater versatility, power, and/or the ability to bring that to bear at all times.

T(-1) is the point of "I win" populated by the aforementioned "YES" buttons. This is the land of the omniscificer, Pun Pun, monty, and co.

[Amphetryon]

Yup- it's a better T1, but still falls under "Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing."

I'm not sure that T0 even exists, truth be told. I've heard stuff like the Beholder Mage (learns spells like a wizard, casts spontaneous from the entire list, and can cast 10 spells/round before action economy shenanigans), but PrCs don't really count, but that's still only "capable of doing everything, but EVEN BETTER than the wizard." Maybe Pun-Pun is T0-- "You don't even have a character sheet, just a piece of paper that says 'yes.'"

No, wait. T0 is the DM!The variant Psionic Artificer is arguably T0 in a game with transparency, just because it has access to all the things.

[Chronos]

My preferred explanation of the difference between Tier 1 and the other tiers:

Suppose that your gaming group has just gotten a new sourcebook. It's a great book, with something in it for everyone. The fighter player looks over it and says "Wow, these are some great feats! I'm going to get one of those the next time I gain a level or two!". The sorcerer player looks over it and says "Wow, these are some great spells! I'm going to get one of those the next time I level up!". Meanwhile, the wizard or cleric player looks over it and says "Wow, these are some great spells! I'm going to get all of them immediately!".

[Gnaeus]

IIRC, Spirit Shaman (CD) are generally lumped in as low-mid T2, for the sole fact that they have so few retrieved spells per day.

I think they are still tier 1, because they could choose the I win button for the particular encounter. They CAN pick different game breaking tricks every day.

Remember that tiers do not measure power. A sorcerer, or even a favored soul, with a really good spell list, might be stronger or more flexible in practice than the Spirit Shaman, who has very few prepared spells, and who can't even use most of the better druid spells effectively (since it lacks wildshape, or animal companion, and can't devote a slot to a 24 hour buff). That doesn't mean it isn't tier 1, it means that it is an abnormally weak tier 1.

By comparison, an ubercharger is firmly tier 4, even if it can kill anything it can hit. It may be an unusually effective tier 4, but it is still tier 4.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The question about the Spirit Shaman is whether or not the Druid list alone has enough win buttons to make it T1 as opposed to T3.

[nedz]

The question about the Spirit Shaman is whether or not the Druid list alone has enough win buttons to make it T1 as opposed to T3.

This argument could be applied equally to the Druid.

I've seen the Spirit Shaman T1/T2 question debated in at least three threads already. Opinions are about 50/50. BTW T3 is definitely a minority view. YMMV but this seems like a pointless derail.

As to the OP:
Favored soul and Shugenja aren't Tier 1 because they lack flexibility. T1 is about having all options open provided you have 8 hours sleep.

Incidental T0, IMHO, is about being able to do this without preparation. Beguiler X / Rainbow Servant 10 for example.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. As pointed out, as I've seen the tiers defined the real difference between 1 and 2 is:

Tier 1: "I have a magic bullet to solve every problem that I would ever run into."

Tier 2: "I COULD have had a magic bullet to solve any problem. But I was forced to choose to have only a limited number of bullets, so I ignored some others."

So the main difference, as far as I can tell between the two is "Would I be tier 1 if I had access to my spell/power list, the complete one, all the time? Am I forced to choose a limited subset of those powers instead?"

I'm not even sure I'd rank Shugenja at tier 2. They do have a lot of tricks. But seem to lack a lot of solid "I win the encounter with one action" sort of buttons that most tier 1/2s have. Add in that a lot of their utility is mutually exclusive due to the Elemental split/opposites, I just can't imagine they'd crack tier 2. Add in various other weaknesses to them and I'm not even sure if they really have the right to maintain tier 3. Definitely on the lower edge of it. Lower than say, Beguiler or even Warmage as they both are decent at what they do. Plus it does seem like Arcane Classes typically have better "tricks" out there in terms of PrCs and such.

[Amphetryon]

Yeah. As pointed out, as I've seen the tiers defined the real difference between 1 and 2 is:

Tier 1: "I have a magic bullet to solve every problem that I would ever run into."

Tier 2: "I COULD have had a magic bullet to solve any problem. But I was forced to choose to have only a limited number of bullets, so I ignored some others."

So the main difference, as far as I can tell between the two is "Would I be tier 1 if I had access to my spell/power list, the complete one, all the time? Am I forced to choose a limited subset of those powers instead?"

I'm not even sure I'd rank Shugenja at tier 2. They do have a lot of tricks. But seem to lack a lot of solid "I win the encounter with one action" sort of buttons that most tier 1/2s have. Add in that a lot of their utility is mutually exclusive due to the Elemental split/opposites, I just can't imagine they'd crack tier 2. Add in various other weaknesses to them and I'm not even sure if they really have the right to maintain tier 3. Definitely on the lower edge of it. Lower than say, Beguiler or even Warmage as they both are decent at what they do. Plus it does seem like Arcane Classes typically have better "tricks" out there in terms of PrCs and such.If Shugenja are T2, they're the very bottom rung of T2; they play a lot more like the arcane List Casters than anything else, and those aren't typically lumped into T2 except in corner cases (mostly involving Rainbow Servant).

[nedz]

I thought that the tier of Shugenjas depending upon their flavour ?

I'm not an expert on these oriental flowers but I seem to recall that some elements/orders are better than others.

Air and Earth look T3, but Fire is possibly T4 and Water T5 ?
Fire being a blaster and Water a sub-par healer.

[kulosle]

Shouldn't the archivist be considered as being Tier 0 since their possible list of known spells is arguably every single spell in D&D (depending on how you interpret the rules)? It only falls behind cleric because it doesn't allow for the turn undead metaspell tricks.

Well they can still do just about the same amount of stuff as anyone else though. I mean the archivist can learn almost everyspell, but you can't really do anything more broken then what can normally be done with them anyways. I mean the spell to power erudite can also learn just as many things. But what can those classes do that a cleric or wizard couldn't do anyways?

[Amphetryon]

I thought that the tier of Shugenjas depending upon their flavour ?

I'm not an expert on these oriental flowers but I seem to recall that some elements/orders are better than others.

Air and Earth look T3, but Fire is possibly T4 and Water T5 ?
Fire being a blaster and Water a sub-par healer.
Water gets Divine Power for no easily justifiable reason, which lets it do a bit more than heal - particularly if it didn't choose an order that was also dedicated to healing.