Can an Angelic/Demonic Magic System Still Be Fresh and Interesting?

[Amaril]

There's certainly no shortage of games with cosmologies, and associated magic systems, based on conflict between Judeo-Christian angels and demons (or something very similar with a different name), but what I'm wondering is this--is there a way to make a world/magic system like this and have it not feel unoriginal and cliched?

This is a pretty open-ended question, but there are a couple provisions I have in mind.

1--There is no other kind of magic. If you have powers, they come from either the angels, the demons, or both, but none of this wishy-washy "impersonal cosmic power" nonsense. That kind of magic has its place, but this hypothetical cosmology would not be it.

2--That said, it could be possible to draw power simultaneously from both sources. This being a purely theoretical exercise rather than an attempt at building an actual cosmology, we can assume that there are ways to use both angelic and demonic powers without being rejected by either. I don't know how, but let's say it's the case anyway.

So, what do you think?

[Grinner]

The main problem is that religion is a very sensitive subject, particularly where it pertains to modern religions. To avoid offending too many people, I think many authors refrain from delving into the subject too deeply. It's a shame really, because there's a lot more going on there than "Angel vs. Demon".

With that said, I can think of two ideas.

Jesus was an Alien - Judeo-Christian with a sci-fi slant. The various scriptures are more or less accurate, but they are written from an extremely uninformed point of view.

In the Days of Yore - An early Bronze Age setting made with a close eye on the early events of the Book of Genesis (just after the exile from Eden). It would basically be "Exalted in the Fertile Crescent".


2--That said, it could be possible to draw power simultaneously from both sources. This being a purely theoretical exercise rather than an attempt at building an actual cosmology, we can assume that there are ways to use both angelic and demonic powers without being rejected by either. I don't know how, but let's say it's the case anyway.

Speaking of wishy-washy, trying to play the game from both ends of the table sounds very wishy-washy to me.

[Amaril]

The main problem is that religion is a very sensitive subject, particularly where it pertains to modern religions. To avoid offending too many people, I think many authors refrain from delving into the subject too deeply. It's a shame really, because there's a lot more going on there than "Angel vs. Demon".

With that said, I can think of two ideas.

Jesus was an Alien - Judeo-Christian with a sci-fi slant. The various scriptures are more or less accurate, but they are written from an extremely uninformed point of view.

In the Days of Yore - An early Bronze Age setting made with a close eye on the early events of the Book of Genesis (just after the exile from Eden). It would basically be "Exalted in the Fertile Crescent".



Speaking of wishy-washy, trying to play the game from both ends of the table sounds very wishy-washy to me.

I hadn't really intended to give this discussion a religious slant--plenty of thoroughly non-denominational media include stuff about angels and demons (Diablo and Devil May Cry immediately come to mind for me). Sorry if that wasn't clear.

You're right about the playing both sides thing, though. Remember, however, that I'm not opposed to the wishy-washy "impersonal cosmic power" nonsense on principle (my favorite class is the wizard), I just wanted to keep it out of this discussion.

[Grinner]

I hadn't really intended to give this discussion a religious slant--plenty of thoroughly non-denominational media include stuff about angels and demons (Diablo and Devil May Cry immediately come to mind for me). Sorry if that wasn't clear.

That's just the thing though. Plenty of authors do exactly that, perhaps in the interest of other peoples' sensitivities, but in stripping the material of its identity, they undermine the gravity of their work. To me, it's almost farcial.

If you decide to go the non-denominational route, be careful of falling into the same trap everyone else does. There needs to be some kind of spark to it. If you don't get it through controversy brand exploitation(?), then you've got to get it some other way.

[Amaril]

That's just the thing though. Plenty of authors do exactly that, perhaps in the interest of other peoples' sensitivities, but in stripping the material of its identity, they undermine the gravity of their work. To me, it's almost farcial.

If you decide to go the non-denominational route, be careful of falling into the same trap everyone else does. There needs to be some kind of spark to it. If you don't get it through controversy brand exploitation(?), then you've got to get it some other way.

Well, I guess you could say I'm curious about ways to get that "spark". The non-denominational appropriation of angels and demons has been done so much that I'm trying to imagine ways to make it feel new and different just for the heck of it. I wasn't planning on doing anything in particular with this idea, it was just something that occurred to me.

[Avaris]

Interesting thought exercise, I'll give it a shot. What follows is stream of conciousness ideas, I make no promises that anything useful will come of it!

Angels and Demons, in the judeo-christian tradition, is about one monolithic good force versus one monolithic evil force. Typically, the Demons have fallen from heaven, and were once Angels.

There are a few ways this could be taken in my view, whether any or all of these are non-cliched is a different matter!

1) the two are in direct opposition, and grant boons to mortal followers to gain control over their immortal souls or to further their own ends in the mortal world. I guess this is the traditional approach

2) order vs chaos. Fundamentally, Demons are Angels that rebelled against their deity, who could be seen as the embodiment of order. Thus, the demons are chaos. Chaos does not need to equal evil, nor does order need to equal good. The system could have evil angels and good demons, the difference between the two is about whether you draw on principles of order or chaos, e.g. angels would give you ritualistic, pre-determined spells whereas demons would give you more spontaneous, flexible spells which are quicker to use. Sort of wizards vs sorcerors

3) Jailer vs jailed. The demons are prisoners. An interesting variation could be that the angels allow mortals to draw on the powers of jailed demons to an extent, forcing them to comply. This turns on its head the traditional devil's bargin theme: the angels are the ones you bargin with for power, the demons are the ones you force to work with you throughritual and will, and who are seeking to escape their bonds if you underestimate your ability to control them.

4) All part of the plan. THe demons were allowed/forced to fall by their deities, as someone was needed to watch over hell, which is where the evil mortals go. Demonic magic could therefore be focussed around combating evil, they are the experts on the matter after all! Angelic magic would therefore be the help yourself/othes style, and potentially more open to abuse for evil ends: the angels are either naive or uncaring what their boons are used for, and expect the demons to deal with any of the problems they create

Not sure if any of these count as original ways of taking it, but hopefully they give food for thought!

[Mx.Silver]

If you're deliberately trying to base this system on judeo-christan angels and demons, that's probably going to put a limit on how original you can be. You can still go for interesting of course.

Anyway, onto actual points.

What exactly do you want your magic system to do anyway? I ask this, because the traditional fantasy 'perform specific spell x to achieve result y' doesn't mesh easily with the real-world mythology/demonology you're trying to base this on (where the rituals were basically just ways to summon angels/demons and get them to work magic on your behalf). Unless you want to go with angels/demons just teaching people hidden magical knowledge - which I'd consider to be stretching the term 'drawing power' a bit- it's probably not going to work without some heavy modification.

One such modification might be to treat drawing power in a rather more literal sense. As in, using magic actually requires you to have access to the necessary amount of supernatural energy and the only way for humans to acquire that is through demons/angels. Maybe angels and demons use different types of this energy, or maybe it's the same stuff used in different ways. In either case, if you want access to the magic grid it's not going to come free, and you can be sure your access to it is going to be capped.

Alternatively, you can take a somewhat more traditional route, where human 'magic' takes the form of supernatural powers bestowed on them by an angel/demon. These powers may be temporary or permanent unless the being in question decides to revoke them, but while you're got them they're yours.
This is closer to the relevant real-world mythology/demonology, but if you really want to reflect said mythology, the magic system should probably be centred around summoning/binding demons/angels to work magic on your behalf - which means the system is going to take on a very ritualistic character, where working magic is not going to be particularly spontaneous. You could still incorporate this last option into another method as well, if you prefer.



In regards to the demon-angel conflict, if you want to make that interesting you'll need to establish what this conflict actually is and why it's happening(and also what effects it has on humans). For example, it's all very well deciding that demons are fallen angels but that's not much use without knowing what this fall was or why it happened.
Why are the two sides fighting? Is it an ideological conflict, a pragmatic one or some mixture of both? Is this conflict fairly symmetrical, or is there the supernatural equivalent of a guerilla campaign or insurgency going on? Maybe the conflict is more of a cold war, with the human world getting used for proxy wars rather than risk the mutual destruction?
There's a lot of ways you can go here, but if you want things to be interesting this is something that'll need to be addressed.



Speaking of wishy-washy, trying to play the game from both ends of the table sounds very wishy-washy to me.

Be that as it may, it is something that's cropped up in real-world demonology.
In regards to this system, I'd imagine playing both ends would require you to be very careful not to alert anyone to the fact that you're doing it - as I imagine most demons/angels would be reluctant to assist someone who's also making deals with 'the enemy'.

[JusticeZero]

I'll toss in another idea: Look up 'Maltheism'. This is a stance that takes a critical reading of the bad stuff in the good book and concludes that God is God, and God is a real jerk with a very jacked up idea of 'Good', which most people would peg as NE or CE. That does not, by the way, mean that the rebels are any better..

[Selenir]

I've always been a fan of the His Dark Materials series and its approach to the Judeo-Christian mythology. It's not a struggle between "good" and "evil." It's a struggle between "obedience" and "enlightenment." Throughout history, the Church has tried to suppress scientific advancement and crusade for blind faith and obedience, whereas the forces of "Hell" fight for truth and understanding.

[mystic1110]

I've always been a fan of the His Dark Materials series and its approach to the Judeo-Christian mythology. It's not a struggle between "good" and "evil." It's a struggle between "obedience" and "enlightenment." Throughout history, the Church has tried to suppress scientific advancement and crusade for blind faith and obedience, whereas the forces of "Hell" fight for truth and understanding.

Let's not make blanket statement - especially since the Church funded a lot of the earlier scientific advances and the fact that some modern scientific communities prevent further research, because of pre-concieved norms. Not that some pre-concieved norms are a bad thing (I.e. no human experemination).

I do like the Enlightenment and Obedience angle - especially how his dark materials did it, where no side was "good" OR "evil". Both sides had their points.

[Grinner]

Let's not make blanket statement - especially since the Church funded a lot of the earlier scientific advances and the fact that some modern scientific communities prevent further research, because of pre-concieved norms. Not that some pre-concieved norms are a bad thing (I.e. no human experemination).

Addendum: Life has always been more "Establishment vs. Disestablishment" than "Good vs Evil" or "Stupid vs Smart".

[mystic1110]

But in the end isn't that just chaos v. order?

[Grinner]

But in the end isn't that just chaos v. order?

How do you define chaos? It's a tricky concept.

[JusticeZero]

Sure, but this is another reason to like "grey vs. grey" or even "black vs. black" as the background conflict that your characters are dealing with. "The angels are coming!" "Aw, crud, that orphanage is doomed, we were almost better off dealing with the demons. Let's see if we can't rescue some people from the forces of Heaven.."

[zabbarot]

I would honestly say your best bet at not being a cliche will be getting as authentic as you possibly can. Look at the different versions of the old testament, dig up as much Jewish mysticism as you can find. Take a really good look at Islam. Islam probably has the best justification for why the devil is allowed to operate out of the set.

If you really aim for being authentic you're less likely to offend anyone than if you were to go along with the grey vs. grey or black vs black interpretation some people are suggesting. There is a lot of really great mythology to pull from, like an older belief that when Satan warred against god the angels who didn't choose sides were also banished and are now the fae. So that even gives you a neutral power. You have a lot to work with way before you need to start relying on more recent tropes.

[mystic1110]

I would recomend the mythology of To Reign in Hell (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/ToReignInHell?from=Main.ToReignInHell)

Basically god and the devil are good friends, just with different ideas of how to prevent destruction from chaos.