Is it even possible to induce "natural undead birth" (?)??

[Mystia]

Hello there. The title is pretty much what I'm striving to know, but I'm pretty sure this is quite the odd question I'm asking here, so, well, let's elaborate..
Despite many people disliking them, undeads are quite my favorite monster type. Consequently, playing a necromancer really suits me. I'm looking for a way to acquire a certain undead as my minion, now that I'm quite sure it can't escape my grasp, thanks to my recently acquired Control Undead spell.
However, that's only the background, let's elaborate a bit more.

Now, we all know there are various ways undead come into existence... Wights, anyone killed by level drains. Vampires, shadows, wraiths, bodaks, all have specific abilities to reproduce. Ghouls inflict diseases which may turn you into one of them. Liches, mummies, skeletons and zombies are created by magic. Some creatures are even undead from the beginning thanks to being natives to other planes, thus being some sort of "life" on their plane of origin, like nightshades.

But, what about undeads who are only undead, but have no specific way of coming into being, nor happen to originate from other planes?
For example, a Angel of Decay, or a Boneyard (both from LM)? There's nothing at all referring to how they are born in their entries, and I'm pretty sure they do not reproduce. I could maybe remotely guess that a Boneyard is a desecrated graveyard which eventually came into sentience, or a graveyard in contact with negative energy, or something the likes... But, what about a Angel of Decay? Am I supposed to guess it reproduces through some twisted, decay-fueled, undead mitosis?
Is there even a way for someone to create them through magical ways, without requiring a Wish or a Miracle (house rule - those spells don't exist)? Without randomly finding them as encounters/minions of other necromancers and stealing them, that is.

That is a question I've been asking myself for a while, since I'd love to have those as additions for my horde.
However, there's one in special I'm seeking, one every necromancer loves. You may have guessed it so far - the ultimate cheese, the Slaymate. How can I possibly fetch one for myself?
I have no access at all to divination magic, absolutely not any kind of a deity's help at finding it, and I'm pretty sure there's just no way I'll just randomly find it as a encounter or someone else's minion. Since we play a custom map, there's just nowhere that they're "permanently placed".
Those impossibilities have led me to think of creative, alternative ways to acquire one.
A slaymate has a way of "reproducing", or at least, being "born".
The Libris Mortis preaches that "Slaymates are undead creatures given a semblance of life when a guardian's betrayal, either outright or through negligence, leads to death".
This gives me the twisted idea. If I emulate these conditions, is it possible for said undead to be born? I have one whole village of commoners and a few leveled guards and officials harboring Necrotic Cysts which I can manipulate at will through a Necrotic Domination, should I need to. (It took a while, infecting one at a time, as many as I could a day, silencing those who found me out. Yeah, broken and cheesy feat, yay).
If I order the parents of the village's innocent children to start murdering/neglecting them, will a Slaymate come into existence? This is quite a sick idea, but well, necromancers aren't saints. We are just scientists, who want results.

Then, the same question could go for other undeads that are born under specific conditions - if I use my Scabrous Touch to infect several commoners, and they die out of the plague, will eventually a Plague Blight come into existence?

I know this may sound a little pointless, but well, I'm really lost in how to obtain a few special undead. That's just because, me, being a necromancer who can easily control any unliving thrown at the party (and if they're any good, for sure won't ever relinquish that control over them), will hardly ever get any undead thrown against us at all.

If possible, please, I'd want to know if there is anything rule-wise that could make this possible, or that regulates this kind of thing. I found nothing on Libris Mortis, even if I took a look at the "Undead Propagation" section. And house-rules are also a no, I'm pretty sure no house rule will ever get set up just to give me cheese. (nor I'd like it, to be honest, I'd feel like a cheater)

Thank you very much. If I forgot to say anything, or made a mistake, feel free to add up or correct me, please! And if I blatantly missed something obvious, such as a previous thread on this (I did search, but maybe I'm a bad searcher?), or a rule somewhere, I'm sorry.

[Snowbluff]

Re: Slaymates. You are just asking for a surviving child growing up and seeking revenge. Standard hazards as a villain apply.

The slaymate seems rather straight forward. In the end I would ask a DM.

You can try dominating someone into Shapechanging (through a scroll or item) into an Undead you want to reproduce.

Also, nice avatar.

[Emperor Tippy]

Does Gate exist in your game?

Because if so, Gate in the Slaymate, Command it, give it an item of Greater Plane Shift so that it can get back to you, and then wait for Gate to run out and it to plane shift back to you.

[Anadoru]

The Angels of Decay are undead created by Atrophus, from Elder Evils. In short, he's the cause of the universe who wants to destroy life. As far as I know, only the Aspect of Atrophus (same book) can create an Angel of Decay. A Dread Boneyard appears on the surface of Atrophus (who, by the way, is an omnicidal moon. Yeah... that makes more sense in the book :smalltongue:), but I honestly have no idea how to make one and I'd guess the Boneyard is really just intended for DM use, given the lack of a method; sorry I can't be more helpful there.

In regards to Slaymates:
I think your idea would come down to a DM ruling - they would be killed by their guardians, but being under your control they aren't really responsible. I'll avoid going further into the 'are dominated creatures guilty of their actions' territory though. You could argue an alternative spin on it though: technically, when you're Dominating those villagers, you are responsible for how safe they are(in that you can endanger them or remove them from danger), whether they protect themselves etc. So you could argue that, if you kill them when they're under your control, that fits the condition. Not sure how many DMs would let that pass, but it might be worth a shot.

If you really want one, then you could always find some kind of merchant caravan or something, offer to guard them, then kill them in their sleep (for bonus points, make it an evil race - even if you're playing a good guy the DM can't complain about it.) A drastic measure would also be to murder your familiar, but that isn't the greatest idea because of the level loss. Otherwise, basically any situation where you're responsible for the safety of someone that you then kill should produce one.

In terms of rules only, that depends on whether your group considers that part of the Slaymate entry to be a rule or just flavour text, as far as I know, in the same way that wights rise from those killed by negative levels.

[Mystia]

Re: Slaymates. You are just asking for a surviving child growing up and seeking revenge. Standard hazards as a villain apply.

The slaymate seems rather straight forward. In the end I would ask a DM.

You can try dominating someone into Shapechanging (through a scroll or item) into an Undead you want to reproduce.

Also, nice avatar.

Oh my, you're quite right, I had forgotten to consider the karmic backlash.. That could be quite bad for my future self. They do apply, thanks for reminding me. And the way you've worded it also made it really funny.

I see, I guess I'll give my irl diplomacy skills a try, then. Ah, the shapechange idea is also neat as a backup plan, not only for a slaymate, but could be all-purposes later, too. I'm grateful for your help.

And, thank you quite much, I'm happy to know someone likes it. She is my inspiration.


Does Gate exist in your game?

Because if so, Gate in the Slaymate, Command it, give it an item of Greater Plane Shift so that it can get back to you, and then wait for Gate to run out and it to plane shift back to you.

I'd never have thought of this one, I can see this working as well. Even if a Slaymate isn't outright extraplanar, I'm quite sure at least somewhere in the lower planes, one lord of the undead has a few of those around, right? I'm sure they wouldn't miss one... I'll require some spellcasting service, but if the other methods fail - this is what I keep my gold for. Thanks for your suggestion as well!

Edit: Anadoru's post ninja'd mine (I just take that long to write replies), so replying now:

The Angels of Decay are undead created by Atrophus, from Elder Evils. In short, he's the cause of the universe who wants to destroy life. As far as I know, only the Aspect of Atrophus (same book) can create an Angel of Decay. A Dread Boneyard appears on the surface of Atrophus (who, by the way, is an omnicidal moon. Yeah... that makes more sense in the book :smalltongue:), but I honestly have no idea how to make one and I'd guess the Boneyard is really just intended for DM use, given the lack of a method; sorry I can't be more helpful there.

In regards to Slaymates:
I think your idea would come down to a DM ruling - they would be killed by their guardians, but being under your control they aren't really responsible. I'll avoid going further into the 'are dominated creatures guilty of their actions' territory though. You could argue an alternative spin on it though: technically, when you're Dominating those villagers, you are responsible for how safe they are(in that you can endanger them or remove them from danger), whether they protect themselves etc. So you could argue that, if you kill them when they're under your control, that fits the condition. Not sure how many DMs would let that pass, but it might be worth a shot.

If you really want one, then you could always find some kind of merchant caravan or something, offer to guard them, then kill them in their sleep (for bonus points, make it an evil race - even if you're playing a good guy the DM can't complain about it.) A drastic measure would also be to murder your familiar, but that isn't the greatest idea because of the level loss. Otherwise, basically any situation where you're responsible for the safety of someone that you then kill should produce one.

In terms of rules only, that depends on whether your group considers that part of the Slaymate entry to be a rule or just flavour text, as far as I know, in the same way that wights rise from those killed by negative levels.

Aah, I see! Thank you quite much!! Those two were bugging me a lot. I had no idea that they had such origin.. Sounds like Atrophus isn't a nice.. sattelite to hang around with. :smalltongue: It's fine, I guess I can understand the existance of a omnicidal moon when we have things like a Genius Loci around... Kinda, since Genius Loci are quite weird. Don't worry though, you've been of a great help with this much information already, thanks.

As for the Slays, yep, I had been thinking about that too, if that'd qualify as them being guilty of their actions or not... That kind of debate could be loong and maybe it still wouldn't qualify, indeed. But that counter-argument is really wonderful. Definitely worth a shot, I'll try that one straight away when I have the opportunity, thanks. And the one with the caravan could also be quite good, should slaying my dominated ones fail.
But, I really had no idea that it could also depend on how they consider it as being flavour or not, akin to a wight (I think some part of the negative energy rules state that the slain arise a wight, though). Thank you once again.

[Cirrylius]

I think your idea would come down to a DM ruling - they would be killed by their guardians, but being under your control they aren't really responsible. I'll avoid going further into the 'are dominated creatures guilty of their actions' territory though.
I suppose the difference would be whether you consider the animating impulse to arise from the child's rage, pain, and neglect, or from the evil engendered by parents' hostility/indifference(/guilt-induced-deathwish?).

[holywhippet]

There is an undead that has been around for a few editions (actually I think it was classed as a construct in 3rd edition) called a crawling claw. It was implied in earlier editions that they could somehow reproduce by stealing hands from dead adventurers.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd never have thought of this one, I can see this working as well. Even if a Slaymate isn't outright extraplanar, I'm quite sure at least somewhere in the lower planes, one lord of the undead has a few of those around, right? I'm sure they wouldn't miss one... I'll require some spellcasting service, but if the other methods fail - this is what I keep my gold for. Thanks for your suggestion as well!

Actually, because of some wonky wording, you just need to travel to a plane where a gated slaymate will be extraplanar (which is any plane that is not the slaymate's plane of origin). So, etherealness or plane shift yourself to some other plane, gate a slaymate from the Prime, and order it to do whatever (like fail any save against your control technique, should said technique allow a save).

And then be ready for the DM to revise the way gate works. :smallwink: As written, it's right up there with wish for radically changing campaign dynamics.

[Mystia]

Actually, because of some wonky wording, you just need to travel to a plane where a gated slaymate will be extraplanar (which is any plane that is not the slaymate's plane of origin). So, etherealness or plane shift yourself to some other plane, gate a slaymate from the Prime, and order it to do whatever (like fail any save against your control technique, should said technique allow a save).

And then be ready for the DM to revise the way gate works. :smallwink: As written, it's right up there with wish for radically changing campaign dynamics.

... Holy goddess.
How I just love the loose wording that there is around some rules and spells :smallbiggrin: you're right, that way one'd qualify as extra-planar no matter what.
Thank you quite much, Phelix! Oh yep, I'd properly brace myself for the DM wanting to restrict gates as well after that, haha :smalltongue:

Now, all of this just made my day. Thank you all quite much, everyone. At first I was thinking that I had no proper ways to get one, but now I'm thinking that there isn't a way not to get one, unless I don't want to.

[Sith_Happens]

Actually, because of some wonky wording, you just need to travel to a plane where a gated slaymate will be extraplanar (which is any plane that is not the slaymate's plane of origin). So, etherealness or plane shift yourself to some other plane, gate a slaymate from the Prime, and order it to do whatever (like fail any save against your control technique, should said technique allow a save).

And then be ready for the DM to revise the way gate works. :smallwink: As written, it's right up there with wish for radically changing campaign dynamics.

The best part is, if the Gated Slaymate is from the Prime, you don't need the Plane Shift item to give it, just a way of finding it.

[Regitnui]

With the way the title was phrased, my mind went immediately to Mortasheen, (http://www.bogleech.com/mortasheen/festerling.htm) where there's an entire class devoted to the results of zombie reproduction.

[Phelix-Mu]

At first I was thinking that I had no proper ways to get one, but now I'm thinking that there isn't a way not to get one, unless I don't want to.

Welcome to the wonderful world of magic.:smallcool:

As an aside, enjoy low-level spell shenanigans. In an epic campaign I'm in, the DM green-lighted Epic Spellcasting, and I'm straining my mind trying to think of something that is not possible with epic magic. The current project is to build an interplanar starship for traversing the multiverse via Far Realm and void jumping.

About 4-5 epic spells later, it should be done. And we'll be packing more firepower than a Star Destroyer, though with slightly more limited range.

Oh, and that reminds me. Spell research is a thing. If you actually find something that published spells can't do, you can always work with your DM to have your character research a custom spell to achieve x or y. This is totally up to the DM, of course, but it was one of the coolest aspects of the game back in 2e, and depending on your character's goals, inventing a new necromancy spell might even be worth some experience points. For the love of the Art and all.