Druid change balance question

[Invader]

Assuming a druid gave up all casting except for SNA and got bonus feats every other level would you consider that balanced at tier 3?

What if they gave up all casting except SNA and personal buffs with bonus feats, still tier 3

[eggynack]

Well, wildshape rangers are tier 3 as a baseline. Thus, it seems obvious to me that a druid with just wildshape and an animal companion would also be tier 3. Really, wildshape is a tier 3 ability on its own, so extra stuff just pushes him around on that tier. I don't think he can reach sorcerer power without better casting than you've said, so yeah he'd be tier 3.

[Kristinn]

Even without casting at all, I would say the class still is Tier 3. It would basically be a Wild Shape Ranger, with a stronger Animal Companion to compensate for the 3/4 BAB, and good Will save, which is better than a good Reflex save, and a bonus feat on every other level. In core of course, this many feat slots quickly become useless. Out of core however, you can pick up beautiful feat chains for melee, Tripping, Shock trooping, Leap attacking, etc., that you usually dip fighter to be able to get.

If you then add in Summon Natures Ally, with the same number of spell slots as a druid has, I would argue you go up to Tier 2. Summoning is one of the best things you can do with your spell slots anyway. Summoning has huge versatality (need a flying combatant? Summon an eagle. Need a grappler? Summon a Dire Lion, etc.), and quite a bit of power (an appropriate bear will match or eclipse a Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization unoptimized fighter any day of the week and twice on Sundays).

Need to distract the enemy caster behind an army of beatsticks? Just summon a grappling monkey behind him. Need a flanking buddy for the rogue? Summon a bear. Every hit a Summon takes is Hit Points you saved for your team.

In conclusion, my money is on solid Tier 2. Strictly superior by quite a lot than a Wild Shape Ranger.

[eggynack]

You may have a point. Summoning is pretty sweet all the time. It scales up pretty well, and if you get a ton of feats it can be even better. If you toss one of the feats on greenbound summoning, that's pretty crazy. I think I agree with the tier 2 assessment then. You're still a bear riding a bear shooting bears. You just don't have the spells that sometimes become bears.

[Invader]

So with the extra feats and self buffs it'd be tier 2 but with regular feat progression and just SNA it'd bump up to tier 2. I think that sounds reasonable.

[eggynack]

I think that the way I'd put it is that if you just took spell casting out of the class entirely, you'd have a tier 3 class. You'd probably be a bit more powerful than wildshape rangers given the access to larger forms and an animal companion. Having access to summon nature's ally is enough of a power and versatility boost on its own to get you into tier 2, however a large amount of feats isn't enough to push you into tier 1.