I challenge you to a duel!

[Panzerbjorn]

A friend of mine challenged me to a duel, level 10 characters, No relics or artifacts, pf and 3.5 rules, 3rd party is allowed, And very few other rules.
My friend loves playing things like a pixie summoner and an alchemist. He has been playing a very long time and is good at finding ways around problems.
The char I'm lookin to build isn't so much op as fun to play. I know warlock isn't a very powerful class but I do enjoy playing it. A couple of levels in the UA warrior and I can get 5d6 sneak attack. Add in the feat from wAEG Mercenaries and you change the d6 to d8. Is that all correct?
Would it work to play a warforged, apply the incarnate construct template then the saint template, would that leave me with a ecl the same as my level?
If you guys were to be in the dual what kind of builds would you build?
Oh and I really want to try the symbiotic template.

[Flickerdart]

Generic classes are mutually exclusive with non-generic classes. You can't have a campaign, never mind a character, with both.

[DeltaEmil]

I thought it was just recommended that generic classes be not together with regular classes.
But I don't see any balancing problem if you include the generics as a choice together with the non-generic classes, except perhaps the spellcaster, who can cast from three spell lists. Generic warrior looks like an okay alternative to fighter.

[Panzerbjorn]

Generic classes are mutually exclusive with non-generic classes. You can't have a campaign, never mind a character, with both.

Why not? Unless given a good reason a little home brew fudging is allowed (just asked)

[137beth]

Generic classes are mutually exclusive with non-generic classes. You can't have a campaign, never mind a character, with both.

And we're back to telling other people that their playing style is invalid!


Why not? Unless given a good reason a little home brew fudging is allowed (just asked)
The biggest issue, as noted in UA, is that you would then have two classes called "warrior." So basically, all you really need to do is either
a) not use the npc warrior
b)change the name of the generic warrior, or
c)change the name of the npc warrior.

[Panzerbjorn]

But this is just a dual between two PCs, not a campaign, so there are no NPCs...

[137beth]

But this is just a dual between two PCs, not a campaign, so there are no NPCs...

Well then, there is no reason at all that you can't mix generic with non-generic classes:smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

And we're back to telling other people that their playing style is invalid!

… what? No, it's in the rules that you're not supposed to mix them.

That's a little like someone suggesting that a Psion 2 can augment mind thrust to do 10d10 damage, someone else replying to say, "no, ML limits prevent that", and the first person then replying, "are you saying my playing style is invalid?"

Of course, mixing generic classes with regular won't usually have such horrendous implications, but it's still marked as "do not try this" for a reason. (That reason has little to do with names, and a lot more to do with exploitable class feature synergies.)

[Ceaon]

Why not? Unless given a good reason a little home brew fudging is allowed (just asked)

Okay, so there really aren't any rules. So... what is the duel about? Besides having fun, I mean.


And we're back to telling other people that their playing style is invalid!

I don't like it when people do that, but I don't think that's what was happening here.

[Jeff the Green]

… what? No, it's in the rules that you're not supposed to mix them.

No, it's in the rules that you shouldn't, in the same way the rules say you shouldn't allow RKVs or Arcane Hierophants in Gestalt. You can freely ignore those suggestions without messing anything up.

[Panzerbjorn]

There are rules, I'm not saying we can do anything. Things like mixing a generic class with a regular class works for us. It's not a campaign setting, it's just a duel. No op cheesiness like 10d10, just fun. To the death kinda fun. :) I'm just lookin for fun ways to build a powerful char for a duel.

[Tytalus]

Is that all correct?

Since the rules say you shouldn't mix generic and other classes, it seems bogus to do so in a build for a duel.



Would it work to play a warforged, apply the incarnate construct template then the saint template, would that leave me with a ecl the same as my level?


No. Cheese aside, Incarnate Construct sets your LA to -2 (minimum 0). That means:

Warforged --> Incarnate Construct sets your LA to 0 (minimum), not -2. Applying Saint brings it to +2.

Warforged (LA +0) --> Saint (LA +2) --> Incarnate Construct (LA +0). This one would work out to no LA, but isn't legal; Saint changes your type and makes no longer a legal target for Incarnate Construct.

[Rhynn]

I don't like it when people do that, but I don't think that's what was happening here.

Seriously. Flickerdart helpfully and neutrally pointed out that "the rules say X, by default", with no instruction, exhortation, or admonishment, and no suggestion of "should" or "ought."

That's generally damned helpful, because a lot of the time, people are not aware of some specific limitations or rules (like no double-prestige classes on gestalt), but often do in fact care when they are pointed out, because then they're less likely to have to deal with someone they play with going "hey, you're not following the rules."

[Panzerbjorn]

Thanks for the clarification to the incarnate question. The reason i like the saint template is for the three elemental immunities.
I think I understand the whole no mixing issue because it can be made broken. The only reason I wanted it was for the 5d6 sneak attack for just two levels instead of min. five via multiclassing. Any alternatives? I would really rather not put half my levels into just gettin 5d6 sneak attack.

[ahenobarbi]

Eh? If you want to throw many d6 for damage...

Human Half-ogre Half-minotaur
Cleric 9/ Hulking hurler 1
Take transformation domain and craft contingent spell and animal devotion feats.
DMM persist Divine Power, Righteous Might, craft contingent in combat cast polymorph (into centaur).

When you polymorph you will have strength 32 (18 (base from centaur) + 10 (Divine Power and Righteous Might) + 4 (animal devotion)), so you can lift as light load 5190lb (1730 (str 32) * 3 (large quadruped)). Throw sharp object with this weight at your enemy. They will do 50d6 damage each (double weight to 10380lb because it's sharp. First 500lb deals 5d6; each next 200lb deals 1d6 (1038-500)/200 = 45).

EDIT: I realized the character might not qualify for Craft Contingent spell.

[LordChaos13]

Or in a somewhat less cheesy way than above:
Blaster Wizard.

They are fun to play, (relatively) easy to build and love the smell of napalm in the morning

[ahenobarbi]

Or in a somewhat less cheesy way than above:
Blaster Wizard.

They are fun to play, (relatively) easy to build and love the smell of napalm in the morning

Hey! It wasn't that cheesy... Using Half-minotaur, Half-ogre water orc Barbarian 5 / Bear Warrior 1 / Hulking Hurler 2 / Cleric 1 with some one-shot items to get buffs would have been cheesy :smallwink:

EDIT: But yeah, blaster wizard probably will make a better impression

EDIT 2: Hmm That would be Str 40 (18 (centaur) + 10 (Divine Powah & Righteous Mightiness) + 4 (animal devotion) + 8 (rage)), 102144lb (now you can throw medium load) for 513d6 + 30 (double strength bonus) damage.

EDIT 3: I borked... I took templates to boost Str then polymorphed them all away... It should be

Str 64 (18 (pre-racial) + 4 (orc) + 18 (templates) + 2 (levelling) + 10 (buffs) + 4 (animal devotion) + 8 (rage))
Medium load 715776lb
Damage 3581d6 + 54.

[Tytalus]

Any alternatives? I would really rather not put half my levels into just gettin 5d6 sneak attack.

Please note that sneak attack is not the greates way to become powerful due to its limitations. That said:

The Craven feat gives you +10 SA damage over 10 levels, which almost as good as 3D6 (or better, since that damage actually multiplies on a critical hit).

Here are a couple of options:

- Classes: Rogue, Swordsage with initiator level 5+ has access to Assassin's Stance (+2D6 SA), Spellthief, Sneak Attack variant Fighter [UA], etc.. Other than that: Psychic Rogue, Assassin, Psychic Assassin, Nightsong enforcer, Ronin, Shadow Thief of Amn, Zhentarim Spy, etc.
- Items: Rogue's Vest (+1D6), Deadly Precision Weapon (+1D6), Bracers of the Hunter [SoX] (+1D6), Mantle of the Predator (+1D6), Belt of Battle (extra actions) etc.
- Feats: Craven (+level to SA), Staggering Strike (keep opponent from acting)

Here's a (very basic) sample build:

- Lion totem barbarian with whirling frenzy (pounce, extra attack) 1 / rogue 7 / Swordsage 2. Craven feat, Assassin's Stance. 6D6+10 SA without items. Assuming the items above, that becomes 10D6+10. With Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater TWF, you get 5 attacks/round, for 50D6+50 potential SA damage. If everything hits and you qualify for SA damage. Double that if you use the Belt of Battle.

- Alternatively, start with a Pixie (+4 LA) for improved invisibility (easy SA qualification), flight and a few other nice things. Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1 (as above), Sneak Attack Fighter 5 (sneak attack). Assassin's Stance doesn't work here (lack of IL), but if you follow the "A stance is a special type of maneuver." rule, you can get a Novice Shadow Hand Item that grants access to said stance for a mere 3k gold. It's a little less SA, but you are much more likely to get it off in the first place.

A web search for "sneak attack optimization" probably brings up a lot more.

[Fyermind]

You will want ways to be able to find your target even if it is invisible.

You will also want a very high initiative modifier.

Ideally you will make the battle yours before your opponent gets to act.

If you can get your K(religion) up to being able to make a DC 25 check and are okay with being vile you can get 24 hour divine power for free. If you make it that far you can also get a few other 24 hour buffs. BAB shouldn't be an issue then.

You could play an undead created in a desecrated area with an alter by a dread necromancer 8 for +4 HP/HD and +4 enhancement to strength and dexterity. Necropolitian costs XP and Gold, but doesn't actually increase your effective level and lets you dump constitution.

If you have con - that open the door to lifesight. The only better autodetect is mindsight which requires a one level dip in mindbender or some other form of telepathy. This will ensure that you can target your foe and they don't just play invisibility dance with you.

[Panzerbjorn]

Sneak attack just sounded like a fun flavor way of doin damage with a warlock. Although I do like the lion totem barbarian idea :)
Being undead might be hard cuz there are so many ways to do massive damage to them. And my friend usually has something up his sleeve just incase invade a horde of zombies or something tries to attack. Although that life sense does sound awesome.

[13_CBS]

From the srd: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#)


If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes.

The intention of the Generic Classes was to provide a simpler way to have PCs. Instead of players having to pick from Barbarians and Paladins and Rogues and Wizards and what have you, you instead pick a Warrior, Expert, or Spellcaster and keep things simple. Including the normal base classes seems to go against the designer's intentions with the generic classes.

[137beth]

From the srd: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#)



The intention of the Generic Classes was to provide a simpler way to have PCs. Instead of players having to pick from Barbarians and Paladins and Rogues and Wizards and what have you, you instead pick a Warrior, Expert, or Spellcaster and keep things simple. Including the normal base classes seems to go against the designer's intentions with the generic classes.

Going against their intention is very different from breaking the rules. It's called cheese:smallbiggrin:

Technically, everything in UA is an optional rule. So if we are talking about generic classes at all, then we are using house rules. Now, to make it more restricted, we could limit ourselves to only house rules appearing in a WotC publication, since that is the closest thing to RAW that includes house rules.
But--UA isn't an "all or nothing" deal. So we just include the house rule that you can take the generic classes, but not the house rule that they have to replace normal classes. Totally RAW (to the extent that anything in UA can be considered RAW.) No, it isn't RAI, but it is RAW.

[Acanous]

Gnome Ninja 2 Bard 8 (Sound Stiker Archetype) with Improved Initiative, Bewildering Koan, Craven, and that feat that maximizes your SA damage on the surprise round.
CHA-DEX-CON-everything else.
Have a few Initiative boosting items, I believe there's a guide somewhere to it that can get you to +20 at lv 10.

Go first. Move into range. Bewildering Koan as a Swift. Weird Words.

You just did 8d8+8*CHA, save for half, plus 56 to his flat-footed touch AC. He does not get a turn. You do it again next round.

[Panzerbjorn]

Gnome Ninja 2 Bard 8 (Sound Stiker Archetype) with Improved Initiative, Bewildering Koan, Craven, and that feat that maximizes your SA damage on the surprise round.
CHA-DEX-CON-everything else.
Have a few Initiative boosting items, I believe there's a guide somewhere to it that can get you to +20 at lv 10.

Go first. Move into range. Bewildering Koan as a Swift. Weird Words.

You just did 8d8+8*CHA, save for half, plus 56 to his flat-footed touch AC. He does not get a turn. You do it again next round.

Now that sounds like a fun build :D