How to counter a players attack

[EriksBlue]

(This is 3.5)
I'm a new DM and one of my characters used this character: http://tinyurl.com/c28dw8k ( I was a idiot and let one of my players who is a min/maxer help him build it).

He used Entangling Exhalation and Fire Breath on my encounter and completely disabled me.

So how can I counteract this so I don't end up killing the whole party?

[Rhynn]

Dracophilia: Just look at that big... scaly... beast...

Nice. :smallamused:


Your language suggests you're seeing yourself adversarially, versus the players. That's not quite right.

Anyway, don't group your monsters close together. Simplest answer. 2d6 damage doesn't look like a whole heck of a lot at fourth level, though, even on a breath weapon.

[Sylthia]

If you don't want the party to go around killing certain NPCs, you can always just put them several levels above the party.

Edit: I assume you mean story NPCs?

[EriksBlue]

It's just that I want my encounters to be a challenge.

[EriksBlue]

That player has called bull on me stopping him from killing NPC's.

Note: Yes story NPC's.

[Rhynn]

Well, what's the exact party composition (how many PCs and what are their classes and levels, are there NPCs or stuff like 20 war dogs along?), and what sort of encounters are you throwing at them? More detail means better help. What kind of encounter was it that got wrecked by entangling breath?

There's two aspects here: encounter design (what monsters and how many) and execution (their tactics), and knowing which one you need more help with would be useful.

[EriksBlue]

With the encouter that got wrecked they fought.
Fighter lvl 3 used a greatsword, Paladin lvl 3 sword and Shield, Warlock lvl 4, and
Bard lvl 5

The Party was: lvl 3 Bard, Warblade, Dragonfire Adept, and a Incarnate.

[Blaknic]

Get creative with the terrain. Archers behind cover, hills, mounds of rubble, all sorts of things. Also, get creative with the encounters in general. I know that there are fewer choices low level, but that doesn't mean you can't have, say, civilians fleeing through your fight. Give the PC's more objectives than "Kill those dudes". Heck, level 4? Put an enemy bard on the field pumping out buffs and illusory foes jumping from behind rocks and such. Make the terrain trapped- pitfalls in battle are always interesting. If the party is melee based, a few archers and a caster crouching behind some rocks on the far side of a pit can cause a lot of problems- especially if one has a readied action to screw up a jump over the pit. Add weather- it is hailing, and casters must make a Concentration check at, say +4 DC, and exposed creatures take 1d2-1 damage per round. But the enemy caster is under cover, and doesn't need to. Or, since you mentioned fire breath as a problem, have the party fight in an area with a bunch of gunpowder or similar lying around. If he uses fire breath, roll a d% to determine if he kills everybody.

The players control their characters. You control everything else. It shouldn't be you vs. them- that fight should be laughably easy to screw over the PC's, even without an inappropriate CR. What you should do is give the players a challenging, enjoyable game. The players, you said, are minmaxers. That means you get to powergame a little, too. If they were more casual, then fine, throw 1d4 kobolds at them. But you have license to free up a little.

Re-reading your post, it sounds like only one or two of the party is powergaming. That is trickier to handle, but it can still be done. The dragon guy is probably the only one spamming fire, so gunpowder would work, or give them an underwater quest/encounter, or simply have the enemies start manufacturing fire resistant gear in fear of being burnt alive by this terrible flame-wielding foe.

[Harrow]

At this level his options should be a 15 foot cone or a 30 foot line. The damage isn't fantastic at this level. Really, as long as you space people out a bit it shouldn't be a problem.

As a side note, I would like to point out that if this guy is too powerful, taking away those flaws and the feats with them would be a good start. Also, he seems to have taken Dragon Tail as a 3rd level feat when it's first level only.

[EriksBlue]

The thing is right now they are trapped in a underground prison.

Note: I let him take that feat since they have no easy access to weapons right now.

[Rhynn]

That doesn't tell me a lot. If they were all clumped together so one breath could entangle them, yeah, it probably was easy. Like I said, there's composition and execution.


That player has called bull on me stopping him from killing NPC's.

Note: Yes story NPC's.

Your players are being ***** if they kill NPCs for no reason. You are railroading if you just "stop" them for no reason. There's no winners there.

There's two approaches, which can be used in isolation or together:

1. Out-of-game. Talk with the players. Usually, killing NPCs is disruptive behavior for disruptive reasons (boredom, just being an arse, etc.), and should be dealt with this way. You shouldn't play with disruptive players. But you also can't be over-sensitive and declare a player disruptive when the player thinks he had a valid reason to do what he did.

2. In-game. There are consequences to attacking people. There's (almost) always someone more powerful than the PCs around, and much of the time, they are in authority, or serve the authority. City guards aside, there are special forces (like the Grey Hand of Waterdeep), especially in a world where the authorities may have to deal with monsters (including dragons) and worry about rampaging adventurers. The local arch-mage or the king's court wizard may take a dim view of PCs who murder important people.

If the player bitches about the first, kick them out. If the player bitches about the second, ignore them and keep on truckin' - they can leave if they're so terribly offended that the campaign world makes sense.

[EriksBlue]

In game what I did to stop him was I had another plot important character drop kick him in the face and drag him away from the NPC.

[Malroth]

think tactically, Their enemies now know one of the party has a member with a fire based breath weapon. Their clerics and wizards should be casting resist elements as preventive buffs on their warriors and their more acrobatic members are going to be hiding in the rafters waiting to drop on the enemy back lines. The only grouped together enemies should be archers set up to shoot from behind full fireproof cover well outside of expected breath range and Enemy front liners should attempt to grapple/bullrush as many PCs as possible into the breath area.

[Sylthia]

If the party's only around level 4, the local leaders are likely at least their level, if not several levels higher. I don't consider making it difficult to kill plot NPCs to be railroading.

[EriksBlue]

Thank you Malroth that very helpful advice.

[only1doug]

Problem entangling exhilation: 1/2 breath attack damage (2d6 drops to 2d6/2 (this is important if your NPCs have fire resistance as the chance of max damage is reduced)) to cause anything damaged to become entangled. Reflex save for 1/2 damage (1-6 damage drops to 1-3 damage).

Solution: Evasion, fire and lightning resistance (even 3 points would give your NPCs a reasonable chance of taking no damage and therefore not becoming entangled, 5 points almost guarantees it) or immunity (at higher levels).

I don't suggest giving this to everything but some of your more important NPCs should have one of these kinds of protection.

Note that your player has the ability to use lightning instead of fire if he chooses and still entangle.

Suggestion: a gang of Teiflings are opposed to the party in some fashion, with their innate resistances they are unlikely to get entangled and one of them can escape to become a BBEG with a grudge against the party at a later date.
Note: with energy resistance 5 the dragonfire adept is unlikely to damage then with entangling exhilation but likely to do so with normal breath attack.

[Tysis]

The dragonfire adept character has a fairly low will save and a low touch ac. Something to keep in mind if you send enemy spellcasters against him.

[EriksBlue]

yeah my play has a fetish for using lightning breath. Were in two other campaigns and his characters love to use lightning damage.