Advice for a new player (AD&D 2nd edition)

[TerribleMedic]

Hello all,
I have recently been invited to played Advanced D&D 2nd edition or "2.5", which I have never played before. My experience is primarily 3.5, PF, 4th, and a bit of playtesting NEXT. I wanted to know if there was an online resource for learning the system and if people had any suggestions for an easy to learn with character type such as a fighter, thief, etc. I appreciate you taking the time to help.

[Rhynn]

By 2.5, do you mean Player's Option (Skills & Powers, Combat & Tactics, Spells & Magic) is in use? You'll probably have to ask your DM about the options available - S&M, for instance, includes many optional and alternative magic systems. Also, are you using the Complete books and kits, or any of the FR books with kits (Warriors & Priests of the Realms, Wizards & Rogues of the Realms, Demihumans of the Realms) ?

If you don't mean PO, then it's pretty much a matter of picking race, class, and maybe kit, and there's not a lot of ways to go wrong. AD&D character creation is simple by default - complexity and depth is in play.

[Pilo]

I am currently playing a wizard, and the campaign starts a year ago (in Myth Drannor...).

What I can say is that in 2nd edition, fighter can have nice things, and rogues too.

I think the best class is bard, but you cannot be one in every game, rogues is nice too if you want to level faster and be necessary, Wizard can be hard to play because you can only cast a very small number of spells per day (no bonus spells, no 0 level spells).

The system is really hard to understand because it is not intuitive. You roll d20, d100, d10... Sometime the bigger is better, sometimes it is the opposite. You'll get that in playing.

[TerribleMedic]

I just clarified this with another player. The main book we are drawing from is the AD&D 2nd Edition Player's handbook and then any other book related to that is on table but subject to approval. This sounds like a lot of material so I may just stick with the PHB for now, but I will pick up some of the other books to see what is available. Thank you for your advice thus far.

[Rhynn]

Right, just with the PHB, pick a race and class combo. There's no free online resource for AD&D 2E, and no 2E retroclone - OSRIC is 1E, and using it could result in some small but possibly critical mistakes.

Basically, your race options are the basic human, elf, half-elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling. (No half-orc - sorry, that'd be 1E!) Classes are fighter, ranger, paladin, cleric, druid, wizard, specialist wizard, thief, bard, and multi-class combinations (like fighter/wizard) based on your race.

Your ability scores will determine what, exactly, you can be; specialist wizards require a 15-17 score somewhere, paladins need 17 Charisma, etc.

Going multi-classed (preferrably two classes, although three can work in a big party) is a good idea, IMO; you'll mostly be a level behind single-class characters in each class, which is hardly anything. If you have two 16s and get to assign them, it's an even better idea (16s in your prime requisites, like Strength for fighters, get you +10% XP for that class). Cleric/wizard, fighter/wizard, fighter/cleric, and fighter/thief are all good ideas; combining fighter with another class makes you more useful in combat, even without using up spells. (And especially at 1st level, a fighter/wizard is way better than a wizard with his paltry one spell.)

Classic combos are dwarf fighter (or fighter/cleric or fighter/thief) to take advantage of the Constitution bonus (Con 17 or higher only really benefits fighters), elf fighter/wizard (+1 Dex, +1 to hit with swords and bows, hopefully elfin chain mail in time), and halfing fighter/thief (with a bow or a sling).

If you play a 1st-level wizard, try to get sleep as a starting spell and memorize it. That spell is freaking gold (Saving Throw: None). With a good roll on the HD affected, you can take out a whole encounter of orcs, goblin, kobolds, or whatever with a single spell. You're a one-shot wonder, but those orcs, goblins, and kobolds could probably kill your friends with one lucky hit.

[TerribleMedic]

So after thinking about what I'd like to do I decided on making an Archer/Batman/GreenArrow type fellow. Are there any races, classes, or kits that I should look at in particular? I like the idea of the goofy smoke grenade arrows or shark repellant arrows, but I am uncertain if there are mechanics in this that would allow me to do things like that.

[Jay R]

So after thinking about what I'd like to do I decided on making an Archer/Batman/GreenArrow type fellow. Are there any races, classes, or kits that I should look at in particular? I like the idea of the goofy smoke grenade arrows or shark repellant arrows, but I am uncertain if there are mechanics in this that would allow me to do things like that.

The ideal race for an archer is an Elf. But first find out if your DM is using level limits for non-humans.

Goofy arrows? Not unless you invent them yourself. There are a few interesting types in The Complete Thieves Handbook, as I recall.

You will probably do best trying to be a fairly normal type, not something strange. Modern D&D has lots of scope for designing a unique character. In 2E (and all previous versions) sticking with the archetypes works best.

One version that works very well, and can certainly be an archer, is an elven wizard/thief. By third level, it's an invisible thief, and by fifth level, it's a flying one. This solves a lot of thief problems, and more than makes up for being one level back (since the points are split).

But don't take a non-human if the game will advance quickly and your DM believes in non-human level limits.

[Rhynn]

If you don't care about slower advancement, you can even be a fighter/wizard/thief! (... or you could just be a human/half-elf bard I guess.)

Seriously, though, I wouldn't recommend triple-classes.


But don't take a non-human if the game will advance quickly and your DM believes in non-human level limits.

This is very true. If the game is supposed to hit 15th level or above, demi-humans are a bad idea, because you'll be left mercilessly in the dust. (Not as bad as in 1E, though.)

[Lord Torath]

Sounds like you want a Fighter, specializing in the Longbow and unarmed combat? I seem to recall an Archer kit, but I didn't see it in the Complete Fighter or Complete Ranger Hand Books (It might have been in Baldur's Gate II).

The availability of your trick arrows is something you'll need to discuss with your DM. In 2nd, you're pretty much limited to choosing between Sheaf and Flight arrows. Sheaf Arrows hit harder (1d8 vs 1d6), but have a shorter range. Anything else you'll need to get special from your DM.

If you want to be stealthy, you'll want to go with a Ranger, but your DM may or may not allow non-Fighters to specialize.

Another option is a Multi-class Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Cleric with an emphasis on combat-enhancing spells (Shocking Grasp, Strength, Blur/Mirror Image, Flame Arrows or Bless, Call Upon Faith, Draw Upon Holy Might, Strength of One).

[TerribleMedic]

I was originally looking into a Ranger with the Stalker kit, but after talking with the DM I'm going to change that. We have another player I wasn't aware of who already has a Stalker Ranger character on paper. Now I'm thinking somekind of a shrewd dwarf business men. Probably Trader Fighter/Thief. Thank you for all your help.

[TerribleMedic]

Does anyone have tips for playing a Trader? I've never played 2ed before and I'd like to avoid any common mistakes. Or if you have any tips in general for playing 2ed. I appreciate any help you have to offer.

[JadedDM]

Sounds like you want a Fighter, specializing in the Longbow and unarmed combat? I seem to recall an Archer kit, but I didn't see it in the Complete Fighter or Complete Ranger Hand Books (It might have been in Baldur's Gate II).

The Archer kit is in the Complete Book of Elves, actually.


Does anyone have tips for playing a Trader? I've never played 2ed before and I'd like to avoid any common mistakes. Or if you have any tips in general for playing 2ed. I appreciate any help you have to offer.

High Charisma? There really isn't a 'trader' mechanic in 2E, so it depends on how your DM will handle it.

[Jay R]

Does anyone have tips for playing a Trader? I've never played 2ed before and I'd like to avoid any common mistakes. Or if you have any tips in general for playing 2ed. I appreciate any help you have to offer.

First, stop capitalizing it as if it's a defined class like Fighter or Thief. It's not; it's just an activity you've decided to do separate from your class.

Second, focus on the character class first. You can be a Fighter who's conducting trade, or a Thief who's conducting trade, or a dwarf Fighter/Thief who's conducting trade. But his abilities will be determined by the fact of being a dwarf Fighter/Thief, not being a trader.

Third, let's turn it around. Why do you want him to be a trader? What are his goals? Why does being in trade make him an adventurer?

What does he trade in? Where does he get his stock, and who are his customers?

Is he an honest trader, or is it a blind for thieving activities?

Pick Non-Weapon Proficiencies to match. The most obvious one I can think of is Appraising. One or two involved with his line would not be amiss. An arms trader might be a Weaponsmith, for instance. Disguise and Forgery are good for a thief whose trade is merely cover.

But fundamentally, a trader isn't a defined role in the game, and it doesn't directly lead to adventures. If this is the DM's idea, then go with it, and assume that it's all part of the scenario.

But if you came up with it yourself, I don't recommend it for a first time playing the game. I'd start with a straightforward adventurer.

[Rhynn]

First, stop capitalizing it as if it's a defined class like Fighter or Thief. It's not; it's just an activity you've decided to do separate from your class.

Technically, there is a (somewhat poinless IMO) Trader class in the revised Dark Sun...

Might be a Trader Kit somewhere too, I guess.

Doesn't really change what you say, though, or your advice.

AD&D is such a simple game, compared to 3E, that there's very little mechanical advice. There's no "trap options." There's very little advice that's not just about general roleplaying, or about specific techniques for specific activities, that would transfer between different DMs' tables.

[TerribleMedic]

Oh, Trader is a specific kit for the Dwarf Fighter/Thief, so I assumed I could just say Trader and people would know what I was talking about. It is listed in the Book of the Dwarves. I've been thinking about this like it's 3.5 where there are feats that seem useful on paper but don't turn out that way. I haven't quite figured out what kind of business I want to set up, but I have figured out some of the other details. He's definitely more of a Fighter than a Thief. The Thief skills were picked up more out of necessity than the character's personal preference. Sometimes you need to know your way around locks if you want to relieve some evildoer of their gold. I also like the idea of having him being an avid collector of things he finds on his adventures. His collecting habits don't come from an academic desire for knowlege, rather it comes from his desire for making a profit and having the next best thing before anyone else. Thank you for your help thus far. I need to look into what proficiencies I should take for this character.

[Rhynn]

Oh, Trader is a specific kit for the Dwarf Fighter/Thief, so I assumed I could just say Trader and people would know what I was talking about. It is listed in the Book of the Dwarves. I've been thinking about this like it's 3.5 where there are feats that seem useful on paper but don't turn out that way.

:smallbiggrin: Yeah, no. Unlike many 3.X players, not many AD&D 2E players will recognize kits by name, largely because they're so scattered, most people didn't have or use most splatbooks, and they're not that mechanically powerful. I doubt most AD&D players would know off-hand what I mean by "Paragon," and that's the only one out of that book I can even name off-hand.

There's a great "cultural gulf", if you will, between AD&D (even 2E) and D&D 3.X.

There are really no trap options in AD&D that I'm aware. Some are not that great, but it's not a game of mechanical optimization, and it's not front-loaded (e.g. in 3.X building/designing your character is a challenge that requires, or rather allows for, great skill).

Some options are more powerful than others; Bladedancer from The Complete Book of Elves (and the other kits in that book to some extent) is notorious; and, for instance, the kits in Skills & Powers, The Complete Fighter's Handbook, and The Complete Thief's Handbook are all straight-up weaker than most kits in the other Completes. Some kits are just crazy, like clerics with full casting, priest XP progression, Exceptional Strength, and Warrior Constitution...

[Jay R]

Oh. No, I haven't memorized all the kits, and I'm not sure I've ever gone through my Complete Book of Dwarves. (Flips though book.)


Bonus NWPs: Appraising, Endurance, Navigation.
2 Weapon Proficiencies used up on inferior weapons.
Gets a free mule with packs.
+1 to hit or damage only when protecting your wares.
+1 reaction with other merchants. (-2 if he ever cheats on a deal.)

OK, why? What makes this seem either effective or fun to play?

You are choosing to play an unusual, off-the-beaten-path role, slightly underpowered, in a game you don't know well, so there must be a specific reason. What is it?

We can advise, but only after we know what your goals are.

[LibraryOgre]

IME, AD&D is less about what your stats are and more about what you do with them.

Because there is less emphasis on having level-appropriate gear as part of your character's viability, and fewer ways to synergize race and class choices, there's less aspect to system mastery to being a good player. If you pick a straight human fighter, you might be a bit outshined by the wizard or the cleric, especially as levels climb, but I find you remain important, even if your role does switch from DPR to Tank (at low level, few will match your damage output, but you probably can't afford good armor; at high levels, the wizard can destroy cities, but can be easily felled by any foe you don't stop... even if your "stopping" consists of "slowing him down long enough for the wizard to kill him").

Being a good player in 2e, IME, comes down to being engaged and taking part of the team. It means having a good team that covers the bases and covers each other, because there aren't any system hacks that let one person rule an entire sphere of the game. Conversely, I also find that the lack of system mastery requirement means that even weird, unbalanced parties can survive by emphasizing world mastery... you can have a perfectly viable group of 4 thieves, or four fighters, provided you follow your strengths and weaknesses.

Note that I'm not saying other games cannot or do not include these aspects, simply that the lack of other options makes them far more important in AD&D.

[Rhynn]

IME, AD&D is less about what your stats are and more about what you do with them.

Yup. It's almost a relief to be running and playing a D&D game where you can have straight 9-11s in your abilities and be a perfectly great character. Indeed, 2E goes back to defaulting to 3d6 in order (and the DMG actually has strenuous warnings against all the other methods). When you add the fact that I've never seen a character in any pre-3E D&D game I've been in get past 9th level, it doesn't even matter if your wizard's Int doesn't allow him 9th or 7th level spells - who cares? (Obviously, some people's games go long enough that they will care, but even then, to me this just means that you shouldn't assume all levels of spells are in play.)


Conversely, I also find that the lack of system mastery requirement means that even weird, unbalanced parties can survive by emphasizing world mastery... you can have a perfectly viable group of 4 thieves, or four fighters, provided you follow your strengths and weaknesses.

Totally. I recall a Dragon Magazine article about single-class parties and what sort of campaigns you could have with them. (And if you include henchmen and hirelings, it's not even a question of "can we do it?", it's "do we want to?")

[TerribleMedic]

Ahh, thank you for giving me some more insight into the differences between AD&D and 3.5. My class decision mostly came from speaking with the DM. I was not sure at first if I'd be able to participate at first. Once I found I had the time I asked about what the party was lacking. She said the party was lacking someone to deal with traps, locks, and there wasn't a solid frontliner. So I saw that Dwarves got the Fighter/Thief option and I looked through the kits from there. Our DM has a large collection of books so she let me swing by to take a look at the options. Trader appealed to me the most. I like the idea of a dwarf setting off into the world to bring back treasure and commerce for his clan. There wasn't a mechanical appeal to the trader kit so much as it appealed thematically to the idea of a Dwarf Fighter/Thief in my head.

[MeeposFire]

2e is nice because the relative lack of trap options but that does not mean that there isn't OP potential in the game.

For instance the weapons are not all equal. At ranged combat darts are beastly with 3 attacks per round if you can get a decent damage bonus with them such as from weapon mastery or high str (assuming you are in a group that allows str with darts. Some books advocated for not allowing it but it did say the default was to allow it. Some then advocated only allowing str bonus up to the size of the damage die of the weapon 3 in this case).


In melee unarmed+cestus is a good combo as punching specialization allows for two attacks per round base (and you don't have to be a fighter to do it) and if you want you can two weapon style it fr 3 attacks per round. Makes for a good basic combo.

Only basic issue with these is that it is hard to find magic weapons of these compared to more classic items like long swords.

An example of class OP would be that the gladiator class is generally better than the fighter unless you want to use siege machines or multiclass (gladiators cannot multiclass). Do note however that fighters are perfectly fine and not every game would allow for the gladiator class.

[Lord Torath]

Also, the Gladiator class is unique to Dark Sun. There is a Gladiator Kit, I believe, in the CFHB, but it really doesn't compare.

I think you've got the right idea here. Pick a character concept you like that fills a particular role in the party, and go with it!

[MtlGuy]

So after thinking about what I'd like to do I decided on making an Archer/Batman/GreenArrow type fellow. Are there any races, classes, or kits that I should look at in particular? I like the idea of the goofy smoke grenade arrows or shark repellant arrows, but I am uncertain if there are mechanics in this that would allow me to do things like that.

If I recall, the Complete Book of Elves has some trick arrows.