Belkar's dream

[Spleen_]

It seems, based on a number of details, that this illusion is most likely a shared one amongst the whole party.

If it is, then Belkar now firmly believes that he has experienced his own death. He has completely taken in and internalized the idea that he is long dead, immortalized in a semi-heroic fashion, his story ended. So what happens when he wakes up? Can he wake up?

[Waspinator]

He's probably experiencing an imaginary afterlife right now. Knowing him, he's probably killing a bunch of demons and conquering one of the various hells.

[Dire Lemming]

It must be a continuous terrorism on all planes... and the sowers of fear possess THERMAL DETONATORS!

[Charity322]

He's probably experiencing an imaginary afterlife right now. Knowing him, he's probably killing a bunch of demons and conquering one of the various hells.

With Mr Scruffy at his side, of course.

[Waspinator]

His dream afterlife would probably also involve, in no particular order, getting a new fireball-shooting skull, killing a lot of kobolds, opportunities to humiliate Miko, and a lot of bikini models.

[Aolbain]

Related to this, what sort of afterlives do CE people get?

[Xervous]

some of them get the "Here's your new life, just elsewhere, and possibly more powerful"

would fit Belkar perfectly

[Waspinator]

The usual D&D scenario is that the afterlife is sorted by alignment, with each getting their own plane to run. So the Chaotic Evil afterlife would basically be a world where everyone is Chaotic Evil. Probably not a very fun place to live unless you're powerful enough to be on the top of the food chain. Belkar might do pretty decently though, especially in a dream scenario where he would likely be able to kill a ton of demons and take over the place.

[angry_bear]

Related to this, what sort of afterlives do CE people get?

The Abyss, it's where CE people typically wind up to be tortured for all time... Unless the CE person followed a deity, then he'll have probably wound up in that deity's domain... Where they're most likely going to be tortured for all time. Pretty sure Belkar doesn't have one though, so more than likely he'd go to The Abyss.

[snikrept]

Belkar-happiness being pointedly absent might suggest that Belkar has made his save and broken free of the enchantment.

Though that would mean he is probably proceeding to coup de grace them all for lols...

[angry_bear]

Belkar-happiness being pointedly absent might suggest that Belkar has made his save and broken free of the enchantment.

Though that would mean he is probably proceeding to coup de grace them all for lols...

I didn't even consider that Belkar made his save... That's an interesting point.

I kind of doubt it, since historically Belkar has failed every will save he's had to make; but first time for everything I guess?

[SteveMB]

Belkar-happiness being pointedly absent might suggest that Belkar has made his save and broken free of the enchantment.

The last panel of 886, showing all four of them under the spell, indicates otherwise.

[Sylthia]

Belker would notice that his party members didn't bother to raise him. So he can either take it as a sign he needs more "character development" or say "screw it" since all that development work was for nothing. That raises the question of just how far he'd regress.

[Osiris]

I agree everyone. with one minor detail
I believe maybe Belkar thinks he's a "sexy shoeless god of war". Would he have his own afterlife then? I bet it involves running around as usual, but he auto-heals with a Ring of Regeneration, and Miko's are chasing him, but he always wins and kills them. He also, as Waspinator says, he can get a new fireball-shooting skull, kill a lot of kobolds, and a lot of bikini models. :smallsmile: Yeah, that is kinda fun, which is not a very good sign :D

[snikrept]

The last panel of 886, showing all four of them under the spell, indicates otherwise.

Thus "broken free" and not "entirely unaffected to begin with"

[hoff]

I think that Durkon death really made a dent on belkar personality as if he knows he deserves to die.

[Lord]

Regarding Belkar's dream, I honestly think that people are assuming too much in regards to what he sees in his own lotus eater machine spell. Think about the last two major scenes he was in. After Durkon died, Belkar was clearly effected by it, and was obviously upset that Durkon had died in his place.

Later on he snapped Roy out of his despair by carefully worded insults, and pointing out that Durkon's death would mean nothing otherwise, and it's only because of that that Roy got that far.

But look at what his response was when Elan called him on being such a jerk.

"That's why you keep me around, isn't it. Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at."

This combined with the fact that Belkar has gotten some sympathetic characteristics makes me think that Belkar's dream will be used for the purposes of developing him further, especially since, barring loophole abuse on the Oracles prophecy, he doesn't have much left.

As for what his hearts desire is, I think it will not be a possible future, but rather a what-could-have-been. Unlike the others members of the order, who have goals for the future that could at least theoretically happen {Though Tarquin and Nale going good is not likely to say the least}, Belkar doesn't really have many options for the future. He can continue being a murderous psychopath, or die somewhere in a ditch, and Belkar never struck me as a death seeker. I think that his hearts desire will be a world where he is nothing like his normal self, though I am unsure as to what.

[Warren Dew]

As for what his hearts desire is, I think it will not be a possible future, but rather a what-could-have-been. Unlike the others members of the order, who have goals for the future that could at least theoretically happen {Though Tarquin and Nale going good is not likely to say the least}, Belkar doesn't really have many options for the future. He can continue being a murderous psychopath, or die somewhere in a ditch, and Belkar never struck me as a death seeker. I think that his hearts desire will be a world where he is nothing like his normal self, though I am unsure as to what.

Owl's wisdom. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

[Dr.Epic]

He's probably experiencing an imaginary afterlife right now. Knowing him, he's probably killing a bunch of demons and conquering one of the various hells.

Nah, he's training with Goz and Mez.

[David Argall]

Belkar will be more or less [ab]normal in the next strip. All 4 were in the ending of the spell. He has not been in the recent strips because he has no good role to play. But we are done with the illusion, so we move on to something else. Belkar will be there to deal with it [not necessarily in a positive manner of course, but he will be around.]

[Coldwind]

Belkar will be with Shojo once again, I guess.

[Ghost Nappa]

Does anyone else suspect that the illusion not only serves as Character Development for Elan but also possibly Belkar? Imagine if he got his Wisdom just a point higher, what it might do?

He saw someone (who didn't entirely appreciate his presence) selflessly die for him, and then was caught in some kind of personal heaven (the details of which we are unaware of). He will undoubtedly be pretty damn pissed to have to leave it and be told it was all a lie. I think one more subsequent "punch to the face" could kick off either a barbarian rampage or some actual character development (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakTheHaughty) that Belkar has only previously thought he actually had.


Bonus points if Elan catches on by way of the Bardic Tradition.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Belkar will be with Shojo once again, I guess.

Why? Belkar knows he is Chaotic Evil and that Shojo is Chaotic Good, why would he dream they'd meet in an afterlife?

[Coldwind]

Why? Belkar knows he is Chaotic Evil and that Shojo is Chaotic Good, why would he dream they'd meet in an afterlife?


Because he already met with Shojo when he was in coma. Well, at least his imagination in a dream, quite fits too. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0605.html)

And I believe he will seek him again for his guidance in afterlife and how good he was since he woke from coma until his death. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html)

And maybe other further questions & revelations about philosophy of chaos. Who knows? It would be fun to see them together again.

[Chad30]

Owl's wisdom. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

I realize it was just for a one strip gag, but if casting owl's wisdom had such a big effect on him, you'd think they would do that much more often. Or go on a quest for something to give him a permanent wisdom boost.

[Kish]

I realize it was just for a one strip gag, but if casting owl's wisdom had such a big effect on him, you'd think they would do that much more often. Or go on a quest for something to give him a permanent wisdom boost.
Belkar the Good didn't voice his thoughts, and so no one in the Order knows that it did anything more than make him able to use scrolls and speak in a slightly quieter voice.

[EmperorSarda]

Belkar the Good didn't voice his thoughts, and so no one in the Order knows that it did anything more than make him able to use scrolls and speak in a slightly quieter voice.

I think I side with the gag reasoning on this. Cause having a higher wisdom score doesn't mean you will be good aligned. Look at every cleric ever.

My guess is that Belkar had a flash of insight with that bonus in bonus that would have changed his life had it been permanent. But if Belkar were to get another wisdom bonus, there is no guarantee that he'd react the same way. He might see wisdom in hiding/not voicing his intentions as loudly, or wisdom in how to better kill.

[Rakoa]

I think I side with the gag reasoning on this. Cause having a higher wisdom score doesn't mean you will be good aligned. Look at every cleric ever.

My guess is that Belkar had a flash of insight with that bonus in bonus that would have changed his life had it been permanent. But if Belkar were to get another wisdom bonus, there is no guarantee that he'd react the same way. He might see wisdom in hiding/not voicing his intentions as loudly, or wisdom in how to better kill.

In fact, his Wisdom at the time may have given him the sense to lie about his "new outlook" for anyone listening to hear, so that he would be able to do secret evil later without suspicion.

Scratch that, just reread the strip. It mostly takes place in thought bubbles.

[DaggerPen]

You know, I was originally a proponent of the "split off into a separate illusion" theory, but the idea of him conquering the afterlife with Mr. Scruffy by his side make a fair amount of sense, especially given that I doubt that Mr. Scruffy dying would really have occurred to the other party members if it were only their illusion, but may have been done so that Belkar would have been ensured Mr. Scruffy by his side.

I mean, unless Mr. Scruffy is also in the illusion and his greatest wish was to be with Belkar, but the shared illusion premise still works in that case, as frankly, if the illusion was designed to split if futures got too hard to reconcile, I would have expected them all to have separate illusions in the first place to prevent exactly this type of way of breaking out.

[EmperorSarda]

If Belkar has to break out on his own, I think the real question is how much does he know of the Chaotic Evil afterlife, and will he be able to realize that the afterlife he thinks he is going to is too perfect for him to actually be the afterlife.

[Spleen_]

So it turns out Belkar and Mr. Scruffy were sharing a dream, and a very mellow dream at that.

That was a great way to visualize the effect the cat is having on the little monster.

[Waspinator]

Huh. Roy apparently was thinking the same way we were, but we were all wrong. It makes a fair amount of sense though, especially because Mr Scruffy was in the spell too.

[Warren Dew]

Huh. Roy apparently was thinking the same way we were, but we were all wrong. It makes a fair amount of sense though, especially because Mr Scruffy was in the spell too.
Not all, really. Lord's prediction was pretty much correct, at least for the one panel we got to see.

[David Argall]

Not all, really. Lord's prediction was pretty much correct, at least for the one panel we got to see.

It was both highly correct and highly wrong. The dream was not at all what we would call normal for Belkar, but this is because it is not really Belkar's dream. In another display of Belkar's [lack of] mental powers, the dream is controlled by the cat and Belkar becomes his chef. Belkar's own ideal world may well be Roy's picture, and Belkar shows his approval of such a world, but he is trying to deny here that he is the mental inferior of his cat.

[Snails]

I would note that Belkar seems happy in Mr. Scruffy's dream.

Roy was playing along in Elan's dream, but he was not apparently happy about it. So getting carried around in someone's else dream does not really force any particular emotional reaction.

I would also note that the 12 Gods motif in the background might be interpreted as a hint that this is the afterlife. It is quite possible that Belkar and Mr. Scruffy died in their own Dream, but Mr. Scruffy carried his Animal's Companion into a place where they both would be happy in an afterlife together.

[EmperorSarda]

I would also note that the 12 Gods motif in the background might be interpreted as a hint that this is the afterlife. It is quite possible that Belkar and Mr. Scruffy died in their own Dream, but Mr. Scruffy carried his Animal's Companion into a place where they both would be happy in an afterlife together.

Except The Giant said that Belkar didn't die (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15306490#post15306490) in his illusion.