What Should The New Chaotic Good Celestials Look Like?

[tbok1992]

If you've checked the Wandering Monsters columnon WotC'swebsite, then you know the polls show that people prefer Eladrin as Feywild inhabitants rather than the Chaotic Good Celestials.

This likely means that we're going to get a new type of CG Celestial that, if it doesn't replace them in the Outer Planes, they'd at least supplant them like the Inevitables did to the Modrons in 3e. I think this'd be a good thing, because the Eladrin were pretty bland design-wise when compared to, say, the Slaad or Demons.

But, that leaves me wondering, what should they replace them with? And that's what I'm putting this topic up for. To me, personally, I think that they should be replaced with something a bit more monstrous and grotesque, but whimsical as well, as that'd fit with Chaotic Good a lot more interestingly than "Elves, but Elfier!". Think something that'd be covered by/drawn by the webmaster of bogleech.com (http://bogleech.com/) and you get a good idea of what I mean.

But that's just my idea of what it should be. What're yours?

[Gildedragon]

I've always thought guardians' feel was more C than N .
Or something norsey since that's in vogue: some afterlife brawler types.

[TheOOB]

How about spirits who don't have a set physical form or name, but are rather mutable incarnations of concepts.

[tbok1992]

How about spirits who don't have a set physical form or name, but are rather mutable incarnations of concepts.

Funny thing, I had an idea similar to that for embodiments of Neutrality to replace the Rilmani (Because I hate the Stupid Neutral trope so very, very much). They'd basically be incarnations of various emotions and thoughts, and could be any alignment (They're more embodiments of neutrality as in "Like a normal person" than "THE BALANCE MUST BE KEPT!"). This'd allow for such things as a CG Embodiment of Pain that believes in pain as a crucible for self-improvement or a CE Embodiment of Love that's like a crazy super-stalker.

[erikun]

Chaotic Good tends towards wild and freedom loving people who tend towards alturism or at least good deeds. Older D&D had the typical CG plane the equilivant of Valhalla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla) with the Einherjar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einherjar). This makes me think wild-but-beautiful outsiders, in the sense of amazons or greek heroes. Creatures that look like they could easily survive by themselves out in the wilderness, but would still be able to rally and lead a group to their cause in a rebellion.

That said, one thing about Chaotic (especially Chaotic Good) is accepting others of different backgrounds to the cause. Besides a wide range of CG outsiders, I could easily see a division specifically for "past mortal heroes" of all different races.

[tbok1992]

Chaotic Good tends towards wild and freedom loving people who tend towards alturism or at least good deeds. Older D&D had the typical CG plane the equilivant of Valhalla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla) with the Einherjar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einherjar). This makes me think wild-but-beautiful outsiders, in the sense of amazons or greek heroes. Creatures that look like they could easily survive by themselves out in the wilderness, but would still be able to rally and lead a group to their cause in a rebellion.

Ya see, I kinda think the opposite. Chaotic Good seems to me more like it should be focused on the outcasts, the weirdos, the people who don't fit in and those who defend them. And that's kind of why I think the CG Celestials should be a bit more monstrous, because what's more outcast-y than a monster?

[Aidan305]

Quasar perhaps? IIRC they're chaotic good outsiders. Artificially created ones admittedly (by the Guardianals), but that could provide some interesting backstory to them.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Never liked the idea of having a force for each corner... I'd rather have a force for each side of individual scales. So a force of Chaos, which can include Chaotic evil to chaotic good (I imagine a less sadistic True Fae from nWoD), a force of Evil which ranges from Lawful evil to chaotic evil, etc.

More interesting that way. Sets up the conflicts between the opposing forces more naturally, while also allowing for more natural internal conflicts.

[Friv]

If the feywild weren't already a thing, I would go with fairies. Fairy godmothers, and most of the kind-hearted fae, fit the image of a divine being that is both kind and independent, not above giving people ironic punishment but not wanting to overdo it. The Hidden Folk, essentially.

But then you would need a different category for selfish or malicious fae, and things get complicated...


Never liked the idea of having a force for each corner... I'd rather have a force for each side of individual scales. So a force of Chaos, which can include Chaotic evil to chaotic good (I imagine a less sadistic True Fae from nWoD), a force of Evil which ranges from Lawful evil to chaotic evil, etc.

More interesting that way. Sets up the conflicts between the opposing forces more naturally, while also allowing for more natural internal conflicts.

I can see it either way, yeah.

Angels serving as the force of Good, ranging from the Hosts of Heaven to individual guardians.

Fae serving as the force of Chaos, ranging from the kindhearted brownies to the cruelest hags.

Demons serving as the force of Evil, from the lawful kyton to the chaotic Balor.

And elementals serving as the force of Law, gathering the building blocks of the universe into form.

[Man on Fire]

I could see it this way:
- LG are the Angels, as they are commonly seen by people, those winged beautiful androgynous beings, possibly of various races. They retain "winged humanoid" form, but as they go up in ranks, they become more mechanical in design and behavior
- CG are all those bizarre Angels, liek the ones decribed in Bible and other holy texts, the higher in hierarchy they are, the more bizarre and inhuman and chaotic they look. Most powerful ones look like this (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1355/36/1355365807527.jpg), this (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1335/91/1335918572144.jpg) or this (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1363/84/1363849308518.jpg), some steps lower in hierarchy there are guys like this one (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1340/28/1340283511226.jpg). The lowest are still a bit more humanoid, but even they have some really bizarre traits. Like this (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1341/44/1341440745341.jpg), this (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/24/1345248526435.jpg), this (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1336/15/1336150452001.jpg), this (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/24/1345248562264.jpg) or this (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/24/1345248630400.jpg). Maybe they have some connection to fey. On top of this there are guys who geniuqely look closer to Lovecraftian (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1363/86/1363860454007.jpg) stuff (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1337/05/1337055890213.jpg), than actual Angels, end they probably are.

Fill in whatever names you want instead of Angels.

[Talakeal]

I would go with the Asura for CG celestials.

Also, I always felt that the guardinals were more suited to the beastlands than Elysium. And why do you need Eladrin for the feywild, why not just use Seelie and Unseelie fey and Sidhe like in 3E?

So are Eladrin still the core race replacement for "high elves" in older editions or are they "monsters" again?

[tbok1992]

I would go with the Asura for CG celestials

Why? That's so... boring. I want something for Chaotic Good that as visually interesting/creative as, say Demons or the Slaad.


Quasar perhaps? IIRC they're chaotic good outsiders. Artificially created ones admittedly (by the Guardianals), but that could provide some interesting backstory to them.

Hmmm, that gives me an idea for what the new CG Celestials could be. Perhaps they could be the "rejects" from all across the planes, whether they be from the Elemental Planes (Wood Archons, shards of a murdered Archomental, Fundamentals from The Plane of Mirrors), the Far Realm (The flumph, the Sithilar), the Inner Planes (A race of demon that all went Good, a discarded Modron type that went haywire, a Slaad/Angel hybrid), the Feywild, the Shadowfell (Perhaps Gravecrawlers or a race of Undead Sentinels), and so-on. Maybe the new Chaotic Good plane could be a giant, chaotic, crazy city...

Be back tomorrow, Imma gonna fluff this up.

[Eldan]

I don't think there's really anything wrong with Eladrin. I mean, sure. They may look a bit boring, but with some updates, there could be something.

There is one basic idea about them that I really love. The Archons, Devils, Demons, Slaad, Modrons, Guardinals, 'loths et al all share a restriction. They can't leave the outer planes unless summoned by a mortal.

Eladrin can. As long as no one recognizes them. If recognizes, they are banished back to Arborea for a hundred years and a day. Therefore, the Eladrin have become masters of working from the shadows, in disguise. They become advisors to kings, instead of forces of destruction or salvation or temptation. You never know who they are, but they act at the pivotal points of history. The wounded messenger meets a kindly old healer on the road, who helps him get his message to the general? She might be Eladrin. The bard who sings a rousing song the evening before battle and is then never seen again? Eladrin. The wandering merchant who just so happens to carry an ancient book with the ritual to summon a powerful demon? Could be Eladrin, could be just a human.

I like that idea.

Now, I will admit that they do suffer a bit from More Elven Than Thou syndrome. I usually get around that by making that their disguised form, and giving them some bizarre, alternate true form. There is some support for that in their elemental shapes. With some building on that, it could work.

Really, poor chaotic good just never got much development in third edition. They threw tons of books at the lower planes, and gave us a new archon every now and then, but they pretty much left the Eladrin to rot.

Edit: tbok, you should go look up an article titled something like "Secret layers of Arborea" on planewalker. I think one of them was a city.

[Devils_Advocate]

CG are all those bizarre Angels, liek the ones decribed in Bible and other holy texts, the higher in hierarchy they are, the more bizarre and inhuman and chaotic they look.
Ooh, I like this. They decided to make devils the more humanoid fiends and demons more monstrous as a way of making them more distinct in 4E, right? Why not apply that principle to Lawful and Chaotic alignment exemplars in general? Diversity and freakishness are both Chaosy things, so it makes sense for Chaos to get a whole bunch of freaky monsters.

There don't seem to be nearly enough differences between Chaotic and Lawful things in D&D, to the point that that whole alignment axis seems pretty pointless a lot of the time. Even when ostensibly fallen angels, devils have typically been pretty much demons with differently politics. But really, they should have as much in common with archons.


Angels serving as the force of Good, ranging from the Hosts of Heaven to individual guardians.

Fae serving as the force of Chaos, ranging from the kindhearted brownies to the cruelest hags.

Demons serving as the force of Evil, from the lawful kyton to the chaotic Balor.

And elementals serving as the force of Law, gathering the building blocks of the universe into form.
How about elementals for Neutrality and undead for Law? Yeah, I know that undead are traditionally classified as Evil, but that's never made any particular sense. And they do have an Obedience thing going for them as a group, what with clerics being able to control them, and master commanding spawn.

Heck, the vampire's list of immunities is basically a weird and lengthy code of conduct, for the most part.

[Eldan]

Modrons or Inevitables for Law. Machine-like.
While an interesting idea for a cosmology, I don't think I would like having only five instead of nine races of exemplars. It would make the politics a lot simpler.

[Kami2awa]

I'd personally make them animal spirits like Coyote, Raven and Anansi.

[KillianHawkeye]

So are they bringing the Archons back to the Lawful Good planes? Or replacing them with somebody new?

[Talakeal]

I'd personally make them animal spirits like Coyote, Raven and Anansi.

In my campaign I have combined the "native American pantheon" of animal spirits and the Animal Lords of the Beast lands. They function kind of the like the Demon Princes or the Lords of the Nine do, as a cross between powerful outsiders and deities.

Of course, I also moved the Guardinals to the Beast lands and had the Assimon be the native outsiders of Elysium.

[Eldan]

Hm. If the Aasimon become exemplars, what did you put into their place as divine messengers?

[Pokonic]

Hmm...

Really like the idea of making them the more biblical sort that would really need to state "Fear Not!" when they show up to assist the PC's. Something like a mix between the animalistic Guardinals and the mutible forms that tend to show up in Indian myths (incorperating the general idea of Asuras).

They would probably start off simple, like little balls of light with mutible outer layers, then start getting into pesudohumanoid with several pairs of limbs, then finaly end up looking like inverted waterfalls made out of fire brandishing swords of pure awesomesauce and such when they get to unique status.

[Talakeal]

Hm. If the Aasimon become exemplars, what did you put into their place as divine messengers?

Usually whatever exemplar race is native to the deity's home plane.

[tbok1992]

I don't think there's really anything wrong with Eladrin. I mean, sure. They may look a bit boring, but with some updates, there could be something.

There is one basic idea about them that I really love. The Archons, Devils, Demons, Slaad, Modrons, Guardinals, 'loths et al all share a restriction. They can't leave the outer planes unless summoned by a mortal.

Eladrin can. As long as no one recognizes them. If recognizes, they are banished back to Arborea for a hundred years and a day. Therefore, the Eladrin have become masters of working from the shadows, in disguise. They become advisors to kings, instead of forces of destruction or salvation or temptation. You never know who they are, but they act at the pivotal points of history. The wounded messenger meets a kindly old healer on the road, who helps him get his message to the general? She might be Eladrin. The bard who sings a rousing song the evening before battle and is then never seen again? Eladrin. The wandering merchant who just so happens to carry an ancient book with the ritual to summon a powerful demon? Could be Eladrin, could be just a human.

I like that idea.

Now, I will admit that they do suffer a bit from More Elven Than Thou syndrome. I usually get around that by making that their disguised form, and giving them some bizarre, alternate true form. There is some support for that in their elemental shapes. With some building on that, it could work.

Really, poor chaotic good just never got much development in third edition. They threw tons of books at the lower planes, and gave us a new archon every now and then, but they pretty much left the Eladrin to rot.

Edit: tbok, you should go look up an article titled something like "Secret layers of Arborea" on planewalker. I think one of them was a city.

Hm. That does make 'em a bit more interesting. Sine you seem more familiar with Planescape than me, could you also explain to me the appeal of Guardinals, Rilmani and Daemons? Because, I never got the appeal of them, and I find the Rilmani's version of "BALANCE ABOVE ALL ELSE" Neutrality more than a little creepy.

And I think I'll keep on with my idea of "Motley Crew of Planar Rejects" as a CG race, as I kind of like it. Plus, who says their plane and Arcadia can't co-exist? I mean, it's a plane of chaos, who says it has to obey traditional planar rules?

Now, here's what I wrote up for my take on the concept. Warning: It's long/long-winded and rambly, but hopefully it gets the idea across interestingly
-----
General Summary of The Motleys and Their Plane

Amongst the multiverse, there are those beings that do not fit in amongst the places of their origin, whether it be because they are too good, too chaotic, too strange, too recalcitrant or simply too abnormal to fit in with the rest of the planar cosmology.

But there is a place that exists in the cosmos just for these wayward souls, a place known as The City Where The Rush And The Party Never Ends No Matter The Time Or Place And The Maniac Howl Echoes Across The Cosmos. But it is usually referred to merely as “The City” for those folk with better things to remember than ludicrously long and incoherent names. It is the archetype of all cosmopolitan joys, the soul of the opportunity and life in all cities in all places. Well, sort of.

It was originally a demiplane, albeit one of unknown origin, where the more benevolent rejects of the planes used as a refuge, cavorting and pushing forth their various agendas away from the prying eyes of all but the few most learned of planar scholars.

But, then a funny thing happened. Portals in Sigil randomly started sending the walkers through to The City instead of their destination, leading travelers to come back telling wild tales to a mostly skeptical bunch. This started happening more and more, until the first Proper portal to The City (Known as Killjoy’s Bane, to be explained later) appeared and the inhabitants were able to make a “formal” introduction to the city. Well, as formal as a bunch of Chaotic creatures can be.

They are now considered to be the secondary Chaotic Good plane on the Great Wheel, though some members of the plane tell wild tales of a cosmology where the planes are but an Axis, not a wheel, that their city also accesses. These tales are not taken seriously by many visitors from certain Primes, and their tales of a Great Wheel are taken likewise by those from said Axis cosmology. The Eladrin don't mind this much, as chaos need not follow mortal classifications.

The city is unusual in that it would appear thoroughly modern in its sensibilities, with electrical lighting, running water, automobiles (Albeit self-propelled sans drivers) and so-on, but it is all exaggerated to dizzying heights. Lights are brighter, cars are feral and predatory, and the rooms are glitzy and glamorous (Along with accepting quite… unconventional forms of payment). Sigil’s got some points up over it, but it also happens to have some points over Sigil in its favor. It has three loosely organized layers, the streets, the sky (Which happens to have zeppelins and biplanes) and the sewers (The only place on the planes to find a Celestial Otyugh), though there is enough overlap between the three of them to make some scholars question whether they should be considered proper “layers”

The City’s inhabitants are known as Motleys, for the fact that they are a motley assortment of various creatures from across the planes cast out of their previous homes for whatever reasons, sharing only the Motley subtype from their residence in The City.

They do have a similar loophole to appearing on the Prime Material like Eladrin, in that at any time they are walking through the streets and corridors of The City, they may randomly and accidentally stumble down a certain corridor or street in the Prime Material. They get back in the same random way, but whenever they get brought there, it’s usually for a reason, even if the reason isn’t quite self-evident, and the Motley so brought there will do everything in his power to fufill it, or at least do general good before his plane whisks him back.

Their equivalents of Demon Lords or Archangels are more like celebrities or philosophers, great beings followed more out of admiration and respect rather than any actual chain of command. And right now said Celebrities are wondering what they should do with their newfound prominence now that their home has become a true plane. After all, "Prominence" and "chaotic good" also means being targeted by quite a few powerful and well-organized foes...

Here are a few of the most notable types of Motley:

Mini-Titans-
During the beginning of the Dawn War, the Primordials pooled their power to create four artifacts known as The Titan Mills, which was intended to create a new race of Elemental Titans combining multiple elements, to use as Super Soldiers in their attempts at destroying the Gods.

"Unfortunately", impurities from The Astral Sea crept in to the construction of said Mills, and when the mills were set into motion, instead of spawning a few great titans, they spawned hundreds and hundred of smaller beings, flickering with the roil of elemental chaos and the spark of divinity. They and the Mills were promptly thrown out onto the Astral Sea in the hopes of at least damaging the Gods’ cause.

But, they were instead found by The City, which gleefully scooped them up and let them join. They are something like the plane's equivalents of Quasits or Lantern Archons, albeit far less subtle in their abilities, with the ability to project various elemental blasts, sometimes with utilitarian uses but most of the time only for causing sheer damage and chaos.

They like to ally themselves with various Chaotic Good spellcasters on the material plane, usually at random in a crowd, so that they may gain enough renown and prestige to promote themselves into something more powerful. While oftentimes their lack of subtlety can be irritating, it’s just as often useful. There are five types of known Mini-Titans (who look like minature, muscled humanoids composed of the various elements that make them up), one based on the basic four elemental planes, one with elements from the paraelemental planes, two for the quasielemental planes (One for the Positive ones, one for the Negative ones), and one combining Negative and Positive energy (The most powerful type, but also the craziest one for blatantly obvious reasons). It has been much remarked upon how these creations match The Great Wheel’s model of the elemental planes despite coming from a World Axis cosmology, making them wonder about the links between the two.

Each type comes from their own Mill, still chugging along and traveling across the city, but there are rumors of a lost sixth mill, made from the elements of long forgotten/dead elemental planes, which the Mini Titans are still looking for after all these years. Most say that it’s just a myth, but there’s enough evidence for it to make one wonder…

Monstermen-
In the world there are many people who have been abandoned by their fellow man. Lost, poor, homeless, hungry, dejected these poor souls wander the city streets of every Prime plane, looking for even the slightest bit of hope to let them live one day more on the city streets. And sometimes, if they are pure enough of heart and desperate enough of soul, the paths they wander down lead from the city alleys to The City’s alleyways, where they are quickly sought out by one of the plane’s inhabitants.

There they offer the souls a deal, a bargain that can be struck by beings from the lowliest Mini Titan to the highest Prismatix. They will give them a new form, a greater; stranger one, with highly useful skills reflecting their souls (Read: The first level of an adventuring class based on their personality), enough to provide for them as they wander the Prime Material. But, as a catch, they must use their new skill to fight evil and wickedness wherever it lurks, in a manner as they see fit.

Almost always the answer is yes. And so, their form is changed into a regal yet chaotic humanoid mixture of monster parts (Which would give random Racial Abilities at Chargen), akin to the classic Mongrelman but more elegant. While their race and personality may play some role in deciding their racial abilities, oftentimes they can be completely askew or even at odds with that person’s personality, IE. An Artificer with a Rust Monster-like face or a Paladin with the hands of a Ghoul.

These are meant to be a “Celestial Player Race” ala the Bariaur or the 4e Deva. And if they turn evil, well, there is also a class of Demon known only as “The Tattered Ones”…

Ethereal Azlani-
These were a race that was supposed to exist in a certain Prime plane, but somehow just didn’t, their half-finished forms lying in a hypothetical stasis in the Ethereal Plane for aeons. And then, during the events of Die Vecna Die, eddies of power from that legendary confrontation rippled through the planes. Including the semi-real corpuses of the Azlani, who then ended up falling on the City in what still wasn’t the most ridiculous rainfall on the plane that week.

And the spark and rush of the city gave these theoretical beings life, even after they had faceplanted themselves in the city streets. Buuuut, thanks to the energy that revived them being chaotic, it did not quite give them form.

But they still do find a place amongst the motleys, mainly as wandering sages, going here and there trying to work towards massive changes with their high Charisma, and then promptly buggering off and leaving.

They look like normal, non anthropomorphic lions, but with various chunks made up of less-than-solid ethereal matter, which not only makes them harder to hit, but also allows them some limited phasing, with enough concentration. They also have various telekinetic powers, which happen to be short-range but very, very powerful. Powerful enough to send one flying in fact. It’s said that this has some connection to their origins, but how it does is a mystery for the ages.

Greyfires-
On a certain Prime Material Plane, there was a benevolent democracy of Necromancers, who used the animation of the dead (Combined with animal bones and flesh to avoid ending up killing their own/other citizens) to create a standard of living for their people unseen anywhere else in their world.

Of course, they had the misfortune to be in the same world as a hideously intolerant theocracy who considered undeath an abomination to their holy shiny gods. One that was incredibly militarily powerful and actually shared a border with said democracy. You all know where this is going.

As the final stages of the war drew to a close, there was one Necromancer holed up in his wizard’s tower at the edge of the Necocracy’s capital city, scribbling down notes as the hordes battened down his gates. He had been working on a new type of undead, one that was sentient but that did not have the homicidal insanity of other types of sentient but unsouled undead, and that combined positive and negative energy without ending in their mutual annihilation. But, he knew he would never be able to make them, his master work.

So, with sadness, he went to the window, just as the hordes were breaking the door down, and said “Wherever I may fall, this civilization shall still stand forevermore; as long as one being alive has read my notes.” Then, in front of the mob, he put his back to the window and he jumped to his death.

But his body never hit Prime Material Ground as, whether by some quirk of the planes or the pure force of his dying wish, it fell in The City, where a Sithillar happened to find it and investigate the notes. He read them, the wizard’s lament and pleas to read his work and the instructions on how to build the new type of undead. And, because Sithillar have few compunctions about this sort of thing, he decided to make one, using the Wizard’s dead body as material.

And, as things would so happen, the body retained most of its creator’s memories, and, seeing its situation, decided to make the most of things and try and re-establish the legacy of his lost civilization in The City, building more creatures like himself to do so.

The Greyfire are made by covering a skeleton (Or a bit of planar matter shaped into a skeletal form) in a coat of a silvery red alchemical material, covering it in chessboard-colored plates with runes inscribed on each square (Both of which hare meant to keep the two opposing energies in check), and infusing it with both the powers of Positive and Negative Energy.

They look like how you might expect something made that way would, a shiny red skeleton covered in chessboard-colored plates with runes on ‘em, with two balls of black and white “fire” dominating its torso, swirling together at the center into an eerie grey flame, allowing to both heal and harm as a cleric, as well as allowing them to heal via both positive and negative energy (Though less so than either a normal human or undead could).

They’re also, as you might expect, really good with Necromancy, as they carry with them the secrets of their progenitor’s civilization in their heads, so they know most Necromantic spells. Whether this is due to their progenitor/creator’s wellspring of knowledge or something in the nature of the formula/the plane itself is unknown.

They don’t get along too well with other Celestials, for very obvious reasons, but work great with those nonevil/willing-to-reform denizens of The Shadowfell for also very obvious reasons. They’re good natured and eager to share their secrets, though they also have quite the morbid sense of humor.

It is actually possible for a Greyfire to be produced on the Prime Material Plane, as they are very much willing to see the secrets of a creation, but the resulting being is much weaker than a normal Greyfire, though it is about as intelligent as an average human and just as capable of benevolence and of earning class levels.

As a postscript, right after said war, the theocracy was ironically destroyed by horrible star monsters (The kind that produce 4e’s Star Spawn), which they wrongly thought were their shiny holy gods and that had been worshipping all this time.

Sithillar-
Strange, radialy symmetrical pentipedal beings with a wormlike "head" and a true form that resembles a swarm of alien arthropods, these beings were created from those who delved too deep and too far into the lore of the planes.

But, unlike many of the races subject to this, they retained their sanity. Sort of. Their minds were warped certainly, but warped in such a way that they could understand both the perspective of this dread and maddening realm and the realm of the real. They have pretty much all the abilities they did in 3e

They likely have some link to the similarly-made Kaorti, hence the mutual loathing between the two species. Their forte is grafting various strange and alien parts to both themselves and willing others who can pay, and their surgical skills are often sought after by other members of the plane to "arm" themselves, if you'll pardon the pun.

Kaway-Ro-
They were created also by the Far Realm, using a perfectly human form, to use as "anchors" for the manifold monstrosities of the Far Realm in the prime plane, forming attachments to powerful beings so that they could not bear to retaliate and kill the beings keeping said monstrosities on the plane.

Of course, this backfired when the Kaways realized that they liked humanity, and hauled ass as far away from their Elder Evil creators as they could Planarly get. And as far as they could planarly get (At least without getting kicked back into the Astral straight afterwards) was The City.

They look perfectly human, and by all possible means of identification are human. But that doesn't explain their innate power over barriers and slight Charm Person powers, along with their links to/control over the VanGalion beasts, raw Far Realm matter thrown in the world and coalesced into living form, hulking monstrosities whose appearance and powers are never the same twice (Read: Randomly generated like Hordelings). While they are good, they are still creepy is all get out, thanks to their alien and pragmatic view of the world, and the fact that they tend to think in terms of "Deep Time".

Neon Knights-
Tiamat’s deal with Gith to give the Githiyanki the use of Red Dragon had quite a few conditions that are now only known to scholars of the truly obscure. One of these conditions was the elimination of the Neon Knights.

The Neon Knights were beings like solidified straw-thin light-rays molded into two-dimensional figures resembling paladins, riding steeds combining features of a horse with what those in our world would call a motorcycle, said to originate from the paths of the first Angel who crossed the Astral,. They roamed the Astral on various quests for good, and one of their big missions was keeping Tiamat from establishing a foothold on the Astral Plane.

Of course they did not anticipate the Githiyanki’s rebellion and alliance with their dread enemy, nor the efficacy of their silver swords of slicing through their lighted forms. They tried to make a last stand against the furious bands on their dragon steeds, but they were outmatched and were about to die, until they got the invitation from the City to join them.

Feeling no other choice was available, they left to the city, leaving their fortresses empty (At least the ones they could not transfer with them) and the Githiyanki very, very pissed that they would now have a much harder time fulfilling their debt.

They still act as wandering knights-errant across the planes, doing as they did before even though they entered the Motley fold. Personality-wise they tend to act like Paladins with less of a stick up their butt and less of a penchant for stabbing first and asking questions later. Perhaps that is why they are so much more popular in Sigil than most Paladins

In addition to the speed and flight of their motor-steeds and their ability to give their neon swords the properties of any weapon they can think of, they also have the ability to create portals. Only to the Inner Planes; the Ethereal or the Astral, but it’s still quite a useful ability in combat. They usually use it to escape, summon creatures and summon gouts of elemental/quasielemental/paraelemental matter. So that’s fun, though the ability gets a little wonky when they inevitably find themselves on Sigil.

They also like to give their swords or a foal of their trademark steeds to those who help them in their efforts, no matter how weak or lowly they are. These things have fueled revolutions.

Magnetons-
It is well known that the Demiplane of Electromagnetism has been slowly dying, only inhabited by those few bitter Shockers that refuse to let go. But it did once have more prominent inhabitants, the beings known as Magnetons.

They were a race of tinkerers and meddlers, using the properties of magnetism and electricity for fun and creating wondrous devices marvelled at all over the planes. But, then the now-imprisoned Princess of Elemental Lightning Beyizz started her plan in motion to take over all the adjacent planes to that of Air, one of the steps of which was to start the absorbtion of the Plane of Electromagnetism into the Plane of Lightning. Though they were able to seal her before her full plans were able to complete themselves, the process of destruction of their home was still moving irreversably forward

They had always been on good terms with The City, so it was no great stretch for them to migrate there from their dying plane, and it was no great stretch either to become a part of the Motley. They have the obvious magnetic powers (To attract and repel metal ala the metalmaster), are powered up by lightning damage, and are known as crafters of wondrous inventions, sought after by many an artificer as teachers.

Seskvintone-
There used to be a Modron species as a sort of intermediary between the Hirearchs and the Base Modrons. Their main job was to learn what went Wrong both when lower-level laws dissolved into chaos and lower-level Modrons went rogue, and then report their findings to the Nonatons so that these problems could be remedied.

Perhaps it is the result of all their exposure to these exotic (At least to Modron minds) stimuli that caused what happened next. Simultaneously, in an event never replicated in Mechanus' history, they all went rogue simultaneously.

There was no way they all could be destroyed without severe casualties, so Primus did the next best thing: He unpersoned them, re-writing the laws of Mechanus to be as if they never existed. For, in the eyes of Mechanus, if it is not covered by the law, it does not exist.

But, the City did not think so, and thus welcomed them in.

They look like a six-sided mechanical die (With the pips replaced by eyes) whirling in an orrey, with mechanical wings, arms and froglike legs. Their powers mainly deal with making things go very, very wrong for the wicked, screwing with die rolls and such. They also love making Modrons go rogue, which makes their relations with Mechanus even worse than it'd already be.

They also make vehicles out of the scrapped "corpses" of inevitables, bizarre, vaguely humanoid scrapheap-looking riding machines that travel the city as taxi cabs, which is why the other Modrons haven't declared a full-on vendetta on them, given the known rivalry between Modrons and Inevitables.

Succuwhy-
Of all the demons, Succubi are the most likely to reform. This is a fact supported in numerous historical documents, several (admittedly heretical versions of) holy books and a study by one wizard with a very, very low wisdom score but with high enough charisma to make up for it.

Perhaps it is because they are the ones most often forced to associate with humans as a part of their jobs, which would explain why the demon type second most likely to secede would be the Quasit (though it is a very distant second).

But then, the planar scholars ask, why are there so few seen about the planes then? After all, as outsiders they are immortal, and if they were caught by the various demon lords, surely they’d have at least left some alive (Albeit in unimaginable agony insome thematically-appropriate torture device) as an “example”.

But other scholars would point to the Succuwhy as the reason we do not hear about them, Succubi funneled out of the Abyss via some secret network of portals and converted into Motleys. Certainly, nobody else has given a definitive origin for them as with the other members of the Motleys, and they aren’t telling.

Furthermore, their powers are almost exactly like the Succubus’ save that they are slightly heightened and, instead of sapping life as a Succubus’ kiss does they indeed strengthen it (Read: Heal or grant temporary buffs). And there’s also the fact that they fly despite having no wings, but instead a network of blunt tendrils in the approximate place where wings would be on a normal succubus.

They are fun-loving and vivacious, but also quite reckless and headstrong. They are very popular as summoned creatures for younger wizards, but there is a reason the older and wiser ones keep at least a few Stoneskin spells and a Wand of Cure Light Wounds handy during said summonings. But, most of their duties on any given prime tend to involve convincing those people most restrained by their daily lives to let themselves loose, to feel freer and to generally break the bonds that restrict and choke them.

While they can change their gender, Succubi are functionally hermaphroditic in both "male" and "female" forms. Because of course they are, say scholars, sighing and facepalming in exasperation at the perversity of the cosmos and the stupid; stupid loopholes in the "Belief defines reality" rule.

Sickspawn-
There is a reason that Angels are never used as the host for Slaad larvae, bursting out of several unfortunate Angels who managed to stumble by Ygorl; Lord of Entropy, infected and entrapped "Just to see what would happen". What happened was that the birth of a twisted and stunted series of new beings.

Horrified at their surroundings, they blindly groped towards the nearest being that reflected their nature, which Just happened to be The City. They would have died if they weren't taken in by one of the Powers amongst the Motleys and nursed back to what he presumed was a state of health.

They look like twisted humans with hideous froglike deformities, skin flickering between a dull grey and glowing white, with tiny chickenlike wings and a cracked halo. They share both the powers of the Slaad (Though their spawning isn’t fatal and their teleportation is slightly iffy) and of Angels (Most notably their Protective Aura), along with a few of the Entropic powers of Ygorl (Mainly his ability to Command Undead and to Kill with a Word, though the latter is only powerful enough to injure).

They despise the Slaad, thanks to the traumatic memories of their race's "Birth" that persist in even the newest-born members of the race. They and the angels, on the other hand, get along quite well, as the latter do not resent the former for their origins and find something interesting in their nature, which is why they are very often collaborators.

Legalisnts-
There was once a contract written between the powers of the Lawful planes, to solve an issue only only remembered today by Primus, Asmodeus and Zakhiel. Naturally,the differing planes clashed over their other alignment axis, adding exceptions, clauses, sub-clauses and loopholes (Both intentional and unintentional) until the bill was such a mess that nobody could understand it.

Thus was the law tossed into the Astral Plane and the issue solved by a comparatively more trivial measure. But the law was complex enough to evolve, to grow into something approaching life as it swam through the Astral. And then it reached the City, who adopted it as a joke at first. But, after the plane started spawning more, they eventually decided to adopt it as one of the members of their loose "race"

Their specialty is using loopholes in the law to subvert and destroy tyranny, which also ties nicely in with their ability to alter the laws of reality (Such as gravity, time, distance, ect.) to an extent within a certain radius.

Quesar-
Very similar to their classic backstory, archons make constructs, constructs say thanks but no thanks and bugger off, archons get pissed, gods intervene and the Quesar go on their merry way. Of course, now their merry way included The City, where they joined the other outcasts.

Some say that they were the earliest there, though they are certainly not the most powerful things. Just goes to show how quickly things can change in a land of chaos. They keep their classic powers, and while the older ones look relatively lose to their classic appearance, the newer ones tend more and more towards looking like strange pieces of vaguely humanoid abstract art.

Prismatix-
Cobralike serpents with a great multitude of batlike wings, these are some of the most powerful creatures amongst the Motleys, their equivalents to Pit Fiends or Tome Archons. They are whispered to come from the long-lost Plane of Color, decayed into a crumbling demiplane by the hubristic ambitions of its mad ruler, The Crimson King.

They’re the only ones who’ve escaped the thrall of his mad court, likely escaping long before The King’s sanity and plans began to deteriorate out of disgust with what they saw happening to their home. They have a real hatred for those beings who abuse their power and who hurt people pursing their own selfish whims from atop the perch of power/law.

Needless to say, they really, really hate the Devils and Asmodeus, as he reminds them a lot of their old Crimson King, but infinitely worse. Though, they don’t go after The King oddly enough, both because they think their old plane is too far gone to save, and they are afraid it might bring the King’s still-terrible wrath upon the rest of the Motleys.

Their abilities all center around the various “Prismatic Whatevers”, as they were the supreme embodiments of color outside of the ruling Court Of The Crimson King, and this includes such things as a constant aura of “Color spray” around them, and the ability to use Color Spray like a Dragon’s breath weapon (albeit with a longer recharge time). So Fuuuuuuuuuun.

They’re most likely to appear in the Prime Material plane during circumstances of absolute hopelessness, usually in places where tyranny is so great that it draws them like a magnet. The phrase “Like a rainbow in the dark” has become popular over the planes thanks to one particular tale of one appearing/sacrificing itself in the Demiplane of Dread (How the tale got out is anyone’s guess).

They do have polymorph abilities to disguise themselves, usually as some matter of lesser vermin or lowly peasant, but always with a “tell” in the form of the shimmering rainbow they have in place of eyes.

:Note: Wow that post bloated fast. And I still haven't gotten to the details on the Demon Lord Equivalents, Locations and Artifacts of the place. And I'll probably go back and re-edit this idea dump later thanks to how awkwardly its written. But, I hope at least the idea' s interesting, albeit also Wall-O-Text-y

[Eldan]

A lot of good ideas there.

I cna't explain the appeal of Guardinals. I always thought they were hella boring. They are wise animal-men from the fables. Yawn.

Daemons I love. I should warn you, there will be a lot of semi-coherent rambling.

The Yugoloth. The Scientists of evil. The 'loth have three themes. (Absence of) Emotion, Plague and Purity and Secrets upon Secrets.

The 'loths come from Hades, the plane that eats your emotions. They don't have any themselves. They are clinical and detached. They are different from the Hordelings: the hordelings are a wild mob that does evil to you because you are different and you stand in the way. The 'loths corrupt you and twist you because you are there. Because there is knowledge to be gained from it. Because you are a little speck that does not matter in the multiverse. The world does not care about you. They do not care about you. They are cold and calculating. They don't want ot improve the multiverse, like the Baatezu, or enjoy what they do, like the Tanar'ri. They experiment, they twist, they break things just to see how far they will bend. Hades spreads plagues that infect everyone. Not the virtuous or the while or the sick and the weak. Everyone, equally, will be infected, then lose their emotions, then die. Because the universe is cold and makes no exceptions.

Plague and purity. The yugoloth were created by the Baernoloth, the original source of evil. Or at least, they say that. They are seeking the purity of that expression of evil. They claim to have created the Baatezu and Tanar'ri race from themselves, to purge all law and chaos from evil. The blood war is an experiment in the nature of evil.
This goes further. With every step a Yugoloth advances, he leaves something behind. A part of its identity, an emotion, an aspect of reality. They see it as becoming more pure.
The Baernoloth, those that yet survive, are diseased wreck, oozing, coughing, covered in sores and open wounds. Hades spreads plagues and the loths embrace them. Disease burns weakness from the body and plagues burn weakness from the population and the universe.

Secrets upon secrets. It is mentioned that the 'loths love to be summoned by mortals. When a mortal mage tries to summon a fiend and does badly, being inexact about his circles or the names of the fiends to be called, an Arcanaloth can step into his summoning circle instead and begin to twist the mortal with lies.
No one knows the true nature of the Yugoloth. There are an infinite amount of stories about them, and they all contradict each other. Are they the progenitors of evil, or just mercenaries? Have they begun the blood war as an experiment, or do they just sell themselves so as not to be crushed in the middle? Who rules them? The General of Gehenna, the Oinoloth, the Baern, someone else? Probably none of those answers are true, but no one knows.
The Ultroloths go so far as to erase their own identity when they ascend. To become an Ultroloth, one has to both literally and symbolically tear off one's own face. They erase their true names from the multiverse, so that they can become shadows.
Yugoloths always lie.

[Seharvepernfan]

I've always thought that eldarin were interesting and awesome, and that slaad were bland and boring. I decided a while back to make elementals the new CN outsiders, getting rid of Slaad.

Eladrin are visually interesting, mainly due to being colorful/flashy. I don't see the problem with them being elf-angels, basically. Archons are just people-shaped beings, as are angels, and guardinals (who also have animal characteristics). Demons and devils are mostly people-shaped, as are slaad and inevitables. So, that by itself doesn't make them boring.

That said, I could see guardinals being a CG type, since animal-people is kinda what you were describing by "could survive in the wild, but could also group together", as well as being "grotesque". You could make angels the regular NG outsiders. I don't see any particular reason why good should have four kinds of outsiders.

If you're looking for something new, how about something like this: colorful "demons" like oni/ogre-mages, or a totem-pole in creature form, or genies? I think they should be colorful, somewhat shape-shifty, a bit animalistic, and be focused more on natural attacks (like claws/horns/bite) and armor rather than manufactured weapons and armor. Personally, I think Titans are great as CG outsiders, so maybe some of them could be giant-themed?

[Eldan]

Angels should just drop the pretense and become omni-aligned. They serve the gods, not an alignment, so I see no reason why only good gods should get them.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I could see it this way:
- LG are the Angels, as they are commonly seen by people, those winged beautiful androgynous beings, possibly of various races. They retain "winged humanoid" form, but as they go up in ranks, they become more mechanical in design and behavior
- CG are all those bizarre Angels, liek the ones decribed in Bible and other holy texts, the higher in hierarchy they are, the more bizarre and inhuman and chaotic they look. Most powerful ones look like this (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1355/36/1355365807527.jpg), this (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1335/91/1335918572144.jpg) or this (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1363/84/1363849308518.jpg), some steps lower in hierarchy there are guys like this one (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1340/28/1340283511226.jpg). The lowest are still a bit more humanoid, but even they have some really bizarre traits. Like this (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1341/44/1341440745341.jpg), this (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/24/1345248526435.jpg), this (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1336/15/1336150452001.jpg), this (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/24/1345248562264.jpg) or this (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1345/24/1345248630400.jpg). Maybe they have some connection to fey. On top of this there are guys who geniuqely look closer to Lovecraftian (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1363/86/1363860454007.jpg) stuff (http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1337/05/1337055890213.jpg), than actual Angels, end they probably are.

Fill in whatever names you want instead of Angels.

I like the way your mind thinks

[DMVerdandi]

Asuras.

Break them down into Daityas, Rakshasas, and Ashuras

Don't go crazy with the multiple arms, But rather give them alternate roles and images. All have fangs, and claws, but some are closer and farther away from the human image.

Daityas are Chaotic neutral, Rakshasas are chaotic evil, and Ashuras are chaotic good.
All are highly magical, usually violent, but ALWAYS chaotic.

Daityas are brown, Rakshasas are black, Ashuras are red.
All have indian garb and weapons. Also all have EXTREMELY high spellcaster level and cast as various spellcasters of equal HD.

[Talya]

Eladrin / Guardinals / Archons
Slaadi / (?????????) /Inevitables
Demons / Yugoloths / Devils

I liked symmetry.

[Eldan]

Eladrin / Guardinals / Archons
Slaadi / (?????????) /Inevitables
Demons / Yugoloths / Devils

I liked symmetry.

Rilmani is what you're looking for for True Neutral. Third Edition forgot them even more than the poor 'Loth and Guardinals but there's a few in the Fiend Folio.

[tbok1992]

By the way,what do you folks think about my concept for the Chaotic Good Celestials as "rejects" from all over the planes?

I'm still trying to think about what their "Lords" would be, though so far I've thought of a sentient Artifact, a Factol for a "let's-find-out-the-game-rules-our-world-works-on" Planescape faction that was ret-conned out of existence by The Lady of Pain, and a relatively friendly Abomination (Maybe 2, one from the 3e definition of the term and one from the 4e one). And I still haven't thought much about the structure of The City.

Also, Eldan, could you tell me what the appeal of the Rilmani are? Because, I've always found something kind of creepy/reactionary about the whole "Keep the balance!" type of Neutral, and I've only seen their Fiend Folio appearance which, like you said, isn't much.

[Talya]

By the way,what do you folks think about my concept for the Chaotic Good Celestials as "rejects" from all over the planes?


I don't.

Nature is Chaos. Freedom is chaos. Chaos is not somehow "less good" than Lawful. It's about individualism (chaos) over authoritarianism (law).

The Eladrin were already perfect there. Barring putting them back, moving fey there would be my choice.

[Seharvepernfan]

The Eladrin were already perfect there.

+1

If you're not getting rid of half the other types of outsiders, don't get rid of Eladrin.

[Eldan]

Yeah. If you have to get rid of anything, get rid of either Guardinals or Rilmani. Both are pretty bland.

[tbok1992]

I don't.

Nature is Chaos. Freedom is chaos. Chaos is not somehow "less good" than Lawful. It's about individualism (chaos) over authoritarianism (law).

The Eladrin were already perfect there. Barring putting them back, moving fey there would be my choice.

Didn't say Chaos wasn't good as Law. But Chaos is the stuff that doesn't fit in any systems, and I do think that those Good beings rejected by the various cultures of the universe would fit with that idea of Chaos as the outcasts and the rejected, united in benevolent anarchy and rabble-rousing, a bunch of Planar countercultural rebels.

Plus, who's to say The City and Arborea can't coexist on the Great Wheel? The other two Chaotic planes break the rules in some way (The Abyss having way more layers than any other plane, Limbo being so chaotic that it has no real layers), so who's to say that The City and Arborea's coexistence on that spot of the wheel isn't that sort of rulebreaking?

Also, you mentioned the Rilmani being bland Eldan. Well, in my mind, I had the idea that the "balance" the Rilmani want is generally unpleasant for everyone, a sort of "No Exit"-y compromise that makes everyone miserable, and may even be an usher of the apocalypse. Hell, I even used that idea in my Dungeonworld setting. So that could be a hook to spiff 'em up.

[Talya]

Didn't say Chaos wasn't good as Law. But Chaos is the stuff that doesn't fit in any systems,


No no no...Chaos is the default state of the universe. Any closed system will keep becoming more chaotic until it reaches equilibrium at maximum entropy. Order ("law") is an ephemeral state where some level of organization has been created from the chaos.

[tbok1992]

No no no...Chaos is the default state of the universe. Any closed system will keep becoming more chaotic until it reaches equilibrium at maximum entropy. Order ("law") is an ephemeral state where some level of organization has been created from the chaos.

But that's the whole idea of the Motleys, the remnants of those broken systems of Order joining together for the purposes of constructive chaos. They're the new; wondrous; perhaps even greater things created when the old systems decay.

[tbok1992]

By the way, on how to improve the Guardinals, I was just thinking of something. The way the 5 Companions/Lords of the Guardinals were described as being like an adventuring party in the Book of Exalted Deeds made me think, what if they were like a planar race of adventurers, wandering about the Inner, Outer, Demi and Sigil planes doing works of good for hire?

Each type could correspond to a specific class, and their animalian features could be shown as mirrors of humanity in the same way as Aesop's fables. And, though they'd probably put less of an emphasis on the "Murder" part of Murderhobo, they would be willing to break laws and deals in order to get the job done for the greater good, though they'd be willing to follow the laws if they are just. What do you think of that re-conception of their role?

[Talakeal]

No no no...Chaos is the default state of the universe. Any closed system will keep becoming more chaotic until it reaches equilibrium at maximum entropy. Order ("law") is an ephemeral state where some level of organization has been created from the chaos.

One could also look at that from the opposite perspctive. Homogeony is the natural state of thr universe, perfect and orderly. Variety is only a short lived anomaly, temporary chaos in a lawful universe.

[Farastu]

I really like the Eladrin/Azata, but Planescape had Maenads too, they could be expanded upon and become part of the "chaotic good" group of celestials too (granted as petitioners they were basically the lowest rank of chaotic good celestial beings all ready anyways).
Someone mentioned Einherjar, they actually are lawful good beings in D&D all ready (occasionally lawful neutral), but I certainly wouldn't mind both them and the Maenads being expanded upon.
However isn't the only similarity between celestial Eladrin and Eladrin as a name for high elves the name? Why not just use them but apply a different name? That's what Pathfinder did, they just call them Azata instead.

[Devils_Advocate]

Eladrin / Guardinals / Archons
Slaadi / (?????????) /Inevitables
Demons / Yugoloths / Devils

I liked symmetry.
Eladrin / Guardinals / Archons
Slaadi / Rilmani / Modrons
Tanar'ri / Yugoloths / Baatezu


By the way,what do you folks think about my concept for the Chaotic Good Celestials as "rejects" from all over the planes?
tl;dr post was tl;dr. Could you summarize how they became celestials if they're not celestial in origin? Is it like the fallen angels origin story for devils, i.e. pretty much "They just did"?


a "let's-find-out-the-game-rules-our-world-works-on" Planescape faction
This is at least one of the things that the Fraternity of Order is.


Also, Eldan, could you tell me what the appeal of the Rilmani are? Because, I've always found something kind of creepy/reactionary about the whole "Keep the balance!" type of Neutral
Well, yeah, they're creepy and reactionary in an intriguingly weird way. Also the one exemplar race that wouldn't at least obliterate humanity's way of life, if not humanity itself, if given absolute control of everything, I'm pretty sure.


Chaos is the default state of the universe. Any closed system will keep becoming more chaotic until it reaches equilibrium at maximum entropy. Order ("law") is an ephemeral state where some level of organization has been created from the chaos.
(A) That's "chaos" in the sense of disorder, not in the alignment sense.
(B) The default state of our own universe need not be the default state of the D&D multiverse, and so far as I know there is no definitive proof of this particular bit of Doomguard doctrine.

I'm pretty sure that stars in Spelljammer are basically huge portals to the Elemental Plane of Fire, and will never burn out of their own accord, for example.

[Eldan]

Unless, of course, Fenris eats them.

[tbok1992]

Could you summarize how they became celestials if they're not celestial in origin? Is it like the fallen angels origin story for devils, i.e. pretty much "They just did"?

I'd assume it's them finding the city and living in it for so long that changed their "types" as-it-were to "Motley". Of course, as to where the city came from; nobody really knows for sure. There are bits and pieces of lore; relics; archetecture; grafitti and so on that hint at its origins; but the hints tend to be widely different; and often contradictory. It may just be the singularity where the outcasts of the universe coalesce and find a home; and that may include timelines; which explains it multiple possible origins.

Also; I'll try and make the post talkin' about 'em a little less rambling/tl;dr.