Lv.16 druid vs lv.16 fighter

[Devronq]

I was just discussing with my player how a druid is way better at being a fighter than a fighter is at any level. Could you just help me out in this situation and show examples how a lv.16 druid is better than a lv.16 fighter. make the builds simple lets go no templates, be human build straight druid16 and fighter 16. even a link to a thread would be nice ty

[Snowbluff]

Uh.

Fell Drain anything. Felldrain Venomfire and wildshape with a poison.

[RFLS]

Well...if you have to ask, it'll probably be a closer fight than it should be. Anyway. Druids are more powerful than fighters (which is what I'm assuming you actually meant) because they can Wildshape, which gives them more (and more useful) abilities than a fighter, they have an animal companion, which is a challenge for the fighter in its own right, and they have spells, which they can lock the fighter up with without ever engaging in melee (which they'd probably win anyway).

[Trinoya]

One can heal through anything the other can throw... the other can not. Spellcaster win. By default a level 16 druid should only be getting passed by a fighter in base attack bonus, while it excels at everything else (fortitude saves, will saves).

In the best case scenario for the fighter he spends all his WBL on equipment and items to help protect him from the magic the druid is going to throw at him. The Druid, on the other hand, is free to spend his WBL on whatever he wants.

If the fighter DIDN'T do everything he could to nullify the druids spells than the druid could just cast any number of absurd things. Honestly he could just keep casting baleful polymorph till the fighter fails his save if he wanted to be lazy and inefficient about it..

[Gnaeus]

What books are in use? Core?

[Morbis Meh]

one feat should do it... level 9: Frozen Wildshape... become a 12 headed Cryohydra and feast upon the flesh of the poor fool who dared oppose your near omnipotence!

Human Druid Level 16 build (32 point buy):

Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 14 (don't like negative con scores...)
Int: 14
Wis: 18+4 level bonus+ 6 item= 28 (this is low balling but whatever)
Cha: 14

Feats:
1)Spell Focus: Conjuration
H)Augment Summoning
3)Extend Spell
6)Natural Spell
9)Frozen Wildshape
12)Quicken Spell
15)Assume Supernatural ability
Dire Tiger Companion for a laugh... spells aren't really nedded at this point since the poor sap has a 12 headed Cryo hydra to deal with...

[Carth]

Quickened snowsight + blizzard, both druid spells from Frostburn, will shut down vision and hearing for the fighter, who already can't achieve high listen and spot checks due to them not being class skills and having wisdom be a low stat priority. Ranged attacks are also impossible in a blizzard, so the fighter would be utterly screwed if they chose archery as their focus. Even if resorting to melee, the fighter needs blindsight to even stand a chance.

[Devronq]

What books are in use? Core?

any books really doesnt matter. i assumed the druid can just wild shape and natrual spell and just have higher attack and dam than a fighter with buffs and stuff?

[Vaz]

Wild Shape flying form. Cast blaster spells.

A Druid doesn't even need to do anything. It's Animal Companion does it for you.

[Gnaeus]

Dire Tiger
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 16d8+48 (120 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+24
Attack: Claw +20 melee (2d4+8)
Full Attack: 2 claws +20 melee (2d4+8) and bite +14 melee (2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 2d4+4
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +11
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +7*, Jump +14, Listen +6, Move Silently +11, Spot +7, Swim +10
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (claw), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Run, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 17-32 HD (Large); 33-48 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

Now adjust pet for:
Barkskin (lasts hours)
Greater Magic Fang x3 for all attacks +4 to hit and damage (hours)
Longstrider (hours)
Stoneskin (hours)
True Seeing
Animal Growth (Cast Round 1)
Belt of Strength +6
Amulet of Con +6
Lesser cloak of displacement.

Odds are good, fighter can't even beat his buffed and equipped pet. Thats a core pet, it only gets better from there.

[Flickerdart]

At level 16, a druid can have a Dire Tiger for an animal companion. The druid can also turn into one. The druid buffs himself and his companion with the following spells, all of which last 20 hours with a Bead of Karma and can be cast in the morning.

Longstrider: +10ft movement speed
Pass Without Trace: Can't be tracked
Delay Poison: Can't be poisoned
Greater Magic Fang + Chain Spell: All of the druid's and the pet's natural weapons are now +5
Water Breathing: Can breathe underwater
Tree Shape: Can turn into a tree
Tree Stride: Can teleport through trees
Control Weather: Command the weather to make storms, for instance

Thus buffed, the druid and his pet can stalk the fighter with impunity (possibly casting shorter-duration Silent buffs before engaging - at this point even 10min/level spells last nearly three hours, and 1 minute/level spells last 200 rounds - enough for the druid to track the fighter once he's determined that they're close), then drop tornadoes on his position or simply jump out of a tree and tear him to pieces. If things are going poorly, they can Word of Recall or Tree Stride out of there and try again a few minutes later once they've healed up. During the fight, the druid can also cast Quickened buffs.
The fighter has no way to locate his enemies, and is completely at their mercy essentially whenever they feel like a snack.

[Der_DWSage]

Heck, he doesn't even need all that. He doesn't even need to have the right spells prepared.

Spontaneous conversion:Summon Monster VIII. Summon Roc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm). Command?

"Grapple the Fighter and fly up until the spell duration runs out."

[Pally din]

Spontanious SNAs which with 2-4 feats equal the fighter, before counting wildshape, the animal companion, healing, or any other spells.

[Frosty]

Can you Animal Companion solo the fighter?

[Tvtyrant]

If it were me I would take the Dire Elephant animal companion (dire elephant is in the MMII, it is given as an animal companion in the PHB II.)

Dire Elephants are gargantuan and have a base strength of 40. Cast Animal Growth (SRD or PHB) on your Dire Elephant to make it colossal with a +8 size bonus to strength. So a strength check of 48 (higher with items) and a size of colossal grants your wondrous elephant a grapple check of 50 (+ 15 BaB, +16 size bonus, +19 strength bonus.) If you give it your Belt of Giant Strength +6 it gets a grapple of 53.

Have your Dire Elephant grapple the fighter while you target the fighter with debuffs. Eventually the Dire Elephant will kill the fighter with its natural attacks and you will win. Even if the fighter has Freedom of Movement from items, chances are the elephant can beat the fighter in a fight. Especially if you give it armor boosting items (it has a low AC.)

It would be at least as big as these things.
http://images.wikia.com/lotr/images/0/0f/Oliphant_RE_Animal_Rides-s1280x960-96816.jpg

[Menzath]

one feat.
Dragon wildshape. Rust Dragon. You can win with 1 breath attack.

if you want to be fun, you could just be a shadow dragon and get total concealment as long as you are not in full daylight, which let's you hide in plain sight, and what do you know you can conjure clouds. oh and a negative level breath weapon to boot.

[The Glyphstone]

The druid can turn into a bear riding on top of a bear with a pet bear and an army of summoned bears while shooting lightning from its eyes. Mr. Power Attack is rather more limited.:smallcool:

[INoKnowNames]

Dude, just eat him. Literally.

[CaladanMoonblad]

The OP's claim is dubious, but taken as a given on this board (blatant anti-fighter class bias).

To answer the question... do the following.

1) Limit all variables, 2) mock battle.

How do you do number 1? Limit resources to just the base classes. Impose the same scenario (terrain). Any equipment from WBL needs to remain generic and not specialized for the proposed mock battle. Limit the choice of feats to Core. Limit the choice of equipment to Core. In fact, limit everything to Core. Avoid all splatbooks for the builds. Don't even use a race, or even a roll attributes; use a standard 25 point stat build, and limit the lowest attribute to 8 (just like an NPC), or use the standard array (like an NPC). Use average hp generation. The problem will the be fighter, since there are melee fighters and ranged fighters; their tactics are different. A druid is more flexible in

So... create NPC stats at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, and 20. Start with the same battlemap/terrain and introduce the initiative start with the two combatants at the edges. Then, run the actual battle between you and your player. At least best 2 out of 3 for each level matchup. I would suggest starting the opponents at 50' apart, in a battlemap area that allows another 50' distance in any direction for our two starting locii.

Doing number 1 will focus primarily on the classes themselves as variables. The more you conflate splatbooks into the mix, the less objective the battles become. Doing number 2 will get you actual results. Heck, make sure both players who are running the two combatants have no stake in the outcome, but be as equally proficient in using the combat rules.

[SaintRidley]

The OP's claim is dubious, but taken as a given on this board (blatant anti-fighter class bias).


Is it really biased to say the fighter is way, way weaker than the Druid when the Druid basically gets a fighter as a class feature?

[eggynack]

The OP's claim is dubious, but taken as a given on this board (blatant anti-fighter class bias).

To answer the question... do the following.

1) Limit all variables, 2) mock battle.

How do you do number 1? Limit resources to just the base classes. Impose the same scenario (terrain). Any equipment from WBL needs to remain generic and not specialized for the proposed mock battle. Limit the choice of feats to Core. Limit the choice of equipment to Core. In fact, limit everything to Core. Avoid all splatbooks for the builds. Don't even use a race, or even a roll attributes; use a standard 25 point stat build, and limit the lowest attribute to 8 (just like an NPC), or use the standard array (like an NPC). Use average hp generation. The problem will the be fighter, since there are melee fighters and ranged fighters; their tactics are different. A druid is more flexible in

So... create NPC stats at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, and 20. Start with the same battlemap/terrain and introduce the initiative start with the two combatants at the edges. Then, run the actual battle between you and your player. At least best 2 out of 3 for each level matchup. I would suggest starting the opponents at 50' apart, in a battlemap area that allows another 50' distance in any direction for our two starting locii.

Doing number 1 will focus primarily on the classes themselves as variables. The more you conflate splatbooks into the mix, the less objective the battles become. Doing number 2 will get you actual results. Heck, make sure both players who are running the two combatants have no stake in the outcome, but be as equally proficient in using the combat rules.
This all sounds really really biased towards the druid. Out of core, and with access to multiclassing, you can at least get a fighter who can ubercharge if he wins initiative. Without multiclassing, prestige classing, high stats, and splat books, what does a druid lose? The answer is very little. There are some perfectly optimal druid wildshape forms and animal companions and feats sitting right there in core. Druids don't need books, or items, or races, or stats, or combos, or really anything at all. They can run into a fight completely naked and beat the fighter, and you can't say the same for the fighter against the druid. The equipment can't be specific for the fight? Then how does the fighter deal when the druid flies away and starts making bears? Your claims are all just pretty ridiculous. If he has archery, then what's to stop the druid from doing all of that, and casting a single wind wall? I don't see what you're trying to prove, but if it's that druids and fighters are balanced, then you've failed to a crazy degree.

[Kaeso]

Okay, so the fighter is pretty cool, but the druid has an animal companion, which is basically a slightly worse fighter without magical gear and without bonus feats. On top of that a druid that takes the natural spell feat (and ALL druids do that) is himself just as strong as his animal companion AND has a decent spell list (not as great as the cleric or wizard list, but good in its own right).

This means that you end up with a fighter vs two slightly worse fighters, one of which can cast spells.

[Vknight]

Get a T-Rex, or a Ape, or Dire Badger.

Have the Fighter duel that well you summon up d4+1 Girallons or Megaraptors
With Summon Monster 8. Or summon something else.

Or if you really want. Blast the designated area until he is no more. And summon whatever elemental is immune to the damage type your throwing down.

Core only there

[eggynack]

Okay, so the fighter is pretty cool, but the druid has an animal companion, which is basically a slightly worse fighter without magical gear and without bonus feats. On top of that a druid that takes the natural spell feat (and ALL druids do that) is himself just as strong as his animal companion AND has a decent spell list (not as great as the cleric or wizard list, but good in its own right).

This means that you end up with a fighter vs two slightly worse fighters, one of which can cast spells.
Don't forget that all of the druid's spell slots can also become slightly worse fighters if he wants. This isn't bringing up the idea that some of those slightly worse fighters might actually be slightly better fighters. Use animal growth, and suddenly your whole cavalcade of bear minions are probably individually stronger than the fighter. At the very least, one of your animal companions/summons can pretty efficiently grapple any given fighter indefinitely. It's a bad strategy for the fighter, but the druid basically just used a save or lose on the enemy, and the save is pretty high when the animals start scaling up.

[ShriekingDrake]

Heck, give the druid core and the fighter any additional five books. It's not going to matter. If they stay away from cheese and actually play the classes up to their class potential, it will be over before it starts.

[Flickerdart]

I would suggest starting the opponents at 50' apart, in a battlemap area that allows another 50' distance in any direction for our two starting locii.

Why? The basic untrained spot check will have the combatants notice each other at 100 feet, and a Druid gets both a Wisdom focus and Spot in-class to extend the notice range far beyond that, plus can conceal himself using various abilities (such as the built-in Hide bonus on various animal forms).

[Vknight]

Heck, give the druid core and the fighter any additional five books. It's not going to matter. If they stay away from cheese and actually play the classes up to their class potential, it will be over before it starts.

Preferably with the Fighter being eaten or beaten by a crazed badger

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Remember, not only is a druid good in combat, but out of combat versatility is unsurpassed by all except the wizard in core. Out of core, other casters also get some fun stuff.

In combat:
Against a single powerful enemy, there is rarely anything the druid can't contribute to. A powerful melee powerhouse? Entangle, rusting grasp, and flying to avoid its attacks. Psionic or magical dangers? Grapple it down with summoned creatures and animal companion. A sneaky assassin? Let's see that assassin eat the power of scent+blindsighted dinosaurs. While you're a lizard blended to the tree. The fighter can easily kill things out of core, but the druid can escape much more easily, fight without risks, and get to the battlefield with style.
In an adventuring party? Your front line friends will love you disabling sorcerers and wizards (low-mid levels) with armies of grappling scorpions. Staying back, you can defend your own casters and buff allied melees.
Defenses? They: A. Don't know which animal is the caster. B. Often can't catch up to the flying or hiding creature. C. Can't do anything to that huge tanky dire tortoise.

A fighter can only hit things. He can't do very many of the above; aka, no versatility. Out of combat? He does even less, with 2+Int points of skills and nothing besides feats. A druid can offer easy teleportation, healing, scrying, survival and tracking, and spying skills.

Spellcasters aren't high tier because of just raw power (although druids are powerful). They can adapt with prepared spells and escaping.

[gooddragon1]

Searing Spell + Fire Seeds

Please make 40 separate DC 25 reflex saves.

Fire Immunity? Okay you only take 20d8+320 damage

You made all your saves too? Well it's only 10d8+160 damage then.

Unless he has ring of evasion and some serious reflex save buffs he's soo dead.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Now, in combat, as the others have said, tell me how that fighter ever even finds the druid. Let alone hit him. A fighter doesn't know which of those flying birds are deadly nuke carriers.

Tell me how your melee build will react to a flying creature. How your archer build defends against grapplers and wind walls. How your grappler build acts to being tripped to death and buried under piles of snow/rubble/ice/wood.

Let me do a basis of levels.

1st level: The druid only has 2 1st level spell, but also gains a loyal animal that often will have higher hp than every other melee unit. He can do loads of damage via the produce flame+share spell combo on his animal, and then proceeding to help entangle everyone. Out of combat, he can use Survival skills to get food, track with his wolf, or scout with wild empathy to attempt to converse with the wildlife. Diplomacy, too. Fighters instead only do a bit more damage than the average person (+1 on average with a greatsword, and power attack means another +1).

2-5: Spells begin to increase. The fighter gains high hp and some tactics. Power attack is still weak. Druid begins to get mass buffing (mass snake's swiftness) and healing (vigor). They can summon better allies (eat 1d3 trippers) and save the party from death through escapes (fog cloud). Finally, wild shape becomes available. Druid can now do melee.

6-10: Fighter's tactics start to become actually good. Power attack is strong, and good builds start involving leap attack and shock trooper. Meanwhile, druids gain flight (bird forms), ranged attacks (call lightning), melee (tigers), lots of healing (unicorns) and spells get more powerful.

11-20: Well... then, we start getting into casters teleport throughout world. Casters melee monster (vemonfire). Armies are decimated (frostfell, storm of elemental fury). Save or dies, and better save or sucks. Fighters can chunk off a lot of hp from monsters that are big, but dragons can strafe them all day, and illithids control their minds.

[dascarletm]

Now, in combat, as the others have said, tell me how that fighter ever even finds the druid. Let alone hit him. A fighter doesn't know which of those flying birds are deadly nuke carriers.


No need to stack the fight against the fighter.

Druid comes pre-wildshaped with summons up?
If one says that the druid is superior don't use a situation with the druid in favor to explain it. If anything give your opponent of your argument situational advantages and show how your proponent is still better.

[Immabozo]

One Spell. Stormrage. Now the Druid can fly, shooting 8D6 (or easily getting to 10D6) lightning bolts FROM HIS FRIGGIN EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Plus, all that metal equipment he is so fond of gives you bonuses to hit him!

Then your animal companion gets to eat barbeque for dinner!

[CaladanMoonblad]

Is it really biased to say the fighter is way, way weaker than the Druid when the Druid basically gets a fighter as a class feature?

Without running the numbers, yes, that is a value statement. At least by doing the hard work of actually running a battle with strict limitations, the question can be answered in an objective manner.


This all sounds really really biased towards the druid. Out of core, and with access to multiclassing, you can at least get a fighter who can ubercharge if he wins initiative. Without multiclassing, prestige classing, high stats, and splat books, what does a druid lose? The answer is very little. There are some perfectly optimal druid wildshape forms and animal companions and feats sitting right there in core. Druids don't need books, or items, or races, or stats, or combos, or really anything at all. They can run into a fight completely naked and beat the fighter, and you can't say the same for the fighter against the druid. The equipment can't be specific for the fight? Then how does the fighter deal when the druid flies away and starts making bears? Your claims are all just pretty ridiculous. If he has archery, then what's to stop the druid from doing all of that, and casting a single wind wall? I don't see what you're trying to prove, but if it's that druids and fighters are balanced, then you've failed to a crazy degree.

I am not proving anything; I'm offering a solution to the original question using classic social science techniques. I have seen this done with all the classes at the prescribed levels among my own players. We had different results than the expectations of this board.


Heck, give the druid core and the fighter any additional five books. It's not going to matter. If they stay away from cheese and actually play the classes up to their class potential, it will be over before it starts.

If the question is "which class is superior in combat" then both sides need to adhere to the same restrictions to keep the focus on class.


Why? The basic untrained spot check will have the combatants notice each other at 100 feet, and a Druid gets both a Wisdom focus and Spot in-class to extend the notice range far beyond that, plus can conceal himself using various abilities (such as the built-in Hide bonus on various animal forms).

Because it is arbitrary. Even the terrain will greatly change the tactics (open field vs forest vs. uneven terrain, etc.). As long as the terrain is exactly the same, and the starting position is exactly the same, you are limiting the variables for a sneak round or the like. If the question is about class, then to answer the question requires minimizing all other variables that normally make the question difficult to answer.

[eggynack]

No need to stack the fight against the fighter.

Druid comes pre-wildshaped with summons up?
If one says that the druid is superior don't use a situation with the druid in favor to explain it. If anything give your opponent of your argument situational advantages and show how your proponent is still better.
Why wouldn't the druid be wildshaped? By level 8, he can be wildshaped for an actual 24 hours a day. He doesn't even need to know he's going to be fighting at any point in the day to be permanently flying around. He doesn't need his summons up, because he can just summon those in combat reliably. There's like, a bear on the ground all the time keeping the fighter busy, just because druids are unreasonably overpowered. It's frankly ridiculous. That's not to say that the druid wouldn't be capable of seeing the fighter coming from crazy far away with his combination of spells and skills, but he wouldn't need to. Cause druids are crazy.

[Carth]

Without running the numbers, yes, that is a value statement. At least by doing the hard work of actually running a battle with strict limitations, the question can be answered in an objective manner.


It's been done. Nothing since Test of Spite has done anything to disprove that casters are more powerful than mundanes.

[eggynack]

I am not proving anything; I'm offering a solution to the original question using classic social science techniques. I have seen this done with all the classes at the prescribed levels among my own players. We had different results than the expectations of this board.
You were definitely trying to prove something. You said that us folks had blatant anti-fighter viewpoints, and that the OP's claims of druidic superiority are dubious. Your solution, essentially pitting a druid with standard equipment, build, and stats, against a fighter with the same, will have the results of the druid winning. Level doesn't really matter, because at early levels the animal companion compensates for the low spells/day. If you stick a riding dog in front of the druid, and have the fighter attempt to beat that, the fighter is going to lose most of the time. Any intervention in the fight on the part of the druid is going to push it in the druid's favor by a lot. It basically goes like that all the time, with more emphasis being placed on spells and wildshape as the animal companion becomes relatively weaker. If you want to prove that fighters can ever win this fight ever you should probably lift some of those limits. They're just going to poorly reflect actual gameplay, and favor the druid more than the alternative.

[dascarletm]

Why wouldn't the druid be wildshaped? By level 8, he can be wildshaped for an actual 24 hours a day. He doesn't even need to know he's going to be fighting at any point in the day to be permanently flying around. He doesn't need his summons up, because he can just summon those in combat reliably. There's like, a bear on the ground all the time keeping the fighter busy, just because druids are unreasonably overpowered. It's frankly ridiculous. That's not to say that the druid wouldn't be capable of seeing the fighter coming from crazy far away with his combination of spells and skills, but he wouldn't need to. Cause druids are crazy.

Druids are crazy, of that I have no doubt. Usually when you do a vs comparison you have each opponent start fresh, as in no abilities activated and no spells pre-cast.

That's just what I think sounds logical, however if there are standardized rules on these things..

[eggynack]

Druids are crazy, of that I have no doubt. Usually when you do a vs comparison you have each opponent start fresh, as in no abilities activated and no spells pre-cast.

That's just what I think sounds logical, however if there are standardized rules on these things..
I usually let all day buffs into it, because they last all day. Unless there are some jerks with dispel magic running around, they're going to be on during the fight. I don't even think that stops wildshape, and at some levels it goes enough above 24 hours/day that there's nothing that would stop the druid from being wildshaped short of an arena wide AMF. This is leaving aside the fact that it takes the druid only one round to become a bird of some kind, and another round to launch a wind wall. If the fighter can't kill the druid through the animal companion in that time, the fighter basically just loses. Given that the animal companion is about as powerful as the fighter at most levels, it seems unlikely that the fighter would manage it.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Carth, even if we don't run any numbers, it's pretty evident that the druid will fight on his own terms. A fighter can't find a druid at all, because the druid sleeps in a extended land womb. And can use Master of Earth to instant-teleport anywhere.

Say the fighter finds him. The fighter can't sneak up on him (spot checks, scent, blindsight). Say he somehow does. Druid already is in dire tortoise with extended wind walk. Tortoise teleports.

Say he has no more spells. Animal Companion intercepts charge and trips the fighter, and then Druid wildshapes and escapes.

[Randomguy]

An optimized fighter of this level would have a decent chance agains the druid in melee. By focusing all of his feats into grapple, trip, charging or intimidation he'd be able to out-do the druid in that area, even with the druid in wildshape. I'd suggest not going into melee for this reason.

[dascarletm]

I usually let all day buffs into it, because they last all day. Unless there are some jerks with dispel magic running around, they're going to be on during the fight. I don't even think that stops wildshape, and at some levels it goes enough above 24 hours/day that there's nothing that would stop the druid from being wildshaped short of an arena wide AMF. This is leaving aside the fact that it takes the druid only one round to become a bird of some kind, and another round to launch a wind wall. If the fighter can't kill the druid through the animal companion in that time, the fighter basically just loses. Given that the animal companion is about as powerful as the fighter at most levels, it seems unlikely that the fighter would manage it.

Gets me to thinking, what if you say that the characters all just woke up (Never existed before this day), and have 1 hour to prepare for the fight. (Adjust time as needed since casters would only be able to prep spells.)

[CaladanMoonblad]

You were definitely trying to prove something. You said that us folks had blatant anti-fighter viewpoints, and that the OP's claims of druidic superiority are dubious. Your solution, essentially pitting a druid with standard equipment, build, and stats, against a fighter with the same, will have the results of the druid winning. Level doesn't really matter, because at early levels the animal companion compensates for the low spells/day. If you stick a riding dog in front of the druid, and have the fighter attempt to beat that, the fighter is going to lose most of the time. Any intervention in the fight on the part of the druid is going to push it in the druid's favor by a lot. It basically goes like that all the time, with more emphasis being placed on spells and wildshape as the animal companion becomes relatively weaker. If you want to prove that fighters can ever win this fight ever you should probably lift some of those limits. They're just going to poorly reflect actual gameplay, and favor the druid more than the alternative.

This is the problem with forums; it always devolves into personal attacks. My experience running all the classes at the prescribed levels gave me a different view of 3.5 than the common wisdom of this board. Until a person has run the numbers and witnessed the results in their own group, these sorts of discussions are so much displays of alpha-nerdness. The next time you have free time in your gaming group, run the scenarios and record the results. Now, if the same battle session is run 100+ times, then you have something close to a statistical argument, which will allow you to run a significance test if you have access to SPSS or something similar (even Excel can run this calculation). What I noticed, when I ran the exercise with my players, is that Fighters at levels 1-10 have a distinct advantage over casters. Between levels 11-15 it was middling, and at higher levels casters were fairly one sided victors.


It's been done. Nothing since Test of Spite has done anything to disprove that casters are more powerful than mundanes.

There are divergences in the classes, but Test of Spite is not equivalent to what I prescribe. The point of social science testing is to eliminate extraneous variables and test the variables that are pertinent to the question. In this case, class. Run the prescription sometime in your group, and if you've done it well and objectively, you'll have some hard data to back up hypotheses (which most of this thread is full of, and relying on other variables that have nothing to do with the classes in question).

[eggynack]

Gets me to thinking, what if you say that the characters all just woke up (Never existed before this day), and have 1 hour to prepare for the fight. (Adjust time as needed since casters would only be able to prep spells.)
I suppose it makes theoretical sense, like from a "why isn't this druid a bat" perspective. I just don't know what it tells us. Druids aren't going to not be bats in a regular game, and they're not going to be tossed randomly from waking into an arena fight. If arena fights don't really tell us anything about actual game balance, which they don't, then arena fights where the characters woke up next to each other, and recognized each other as enemies, tells us even less.

Druids are better than fighters in just about every way that counts. They generally do everything but fighting better, just as a default, except they can also do fighting better. Even if the characters just woke up, the druid still has a level appropriate animal companion, spells to shut the fighter down, level appropriate summons, and wild shape which can get the druid at fighter levels of fighting competence at around level 8. If we're trying to measure how powerful the classes actually are, through a series of encounters, then the druid obviously wins. If we're doing a crazy specific arena fight, with situational factors surrounding it that make no sense, then the druid still wins.

[Menzath]

An optimized fighter of this level would have a decent chance agains the druid in melee. By focusing all of his feats into grapple, trip, charging or intimidation he'd be able to out-do the druid in that area, even with the druid in wildshape. I'd suggest not going into melee for this reason.

So... aspect of the wolf, gives you the animal type. Animal growth youself and companion + summons. Wildshape to largest size/str creature.
if you add in magic fang, greater that is a grapple mod of
BaB +4(fang)+4(size mod from growth to str)+2(enchantment from bulls str or what have you+8 if you use largest bite spell)+12(For being gargantuan)+mod from new base creature.
so that is base str mod +22+BaB. Most of what you can change into that has good utility besides grapple that size has base str 29 or so.
so Base mod of 9 which is 31+BaB A 16druid has BaB 12.
total is grapple of 43. And that's a LOW grapple form.

what, I need time to buff?
Why I used a move action to become a badger, and a standard to burrow and get away and then shaped some earth below the field so as to not care about you before hand while I sit in safety and buff.
That or I blinded you with a cloud of X or fog of Y, or Blinded you PERIOD, or entangled you with any number of other spells.

Would it not be fun to do a quickened twined repeated create water with a twined repeated create water just so you could become a giant squid in his face?(could only do it in a place where you could bottle up the water, maybe earthquake or something first?)

Edit: my spellings r the sux.

[eggynack]

This is the problem with forums; it always devolves into personal attacks. My experience running all the classes at the prescribed levels gave me a different view of 3.5 than the common wisdom of this board. Until a person has run the numbers and witnessed the results in their own group, these sorts of discussions are so much displays of alpha-nerdness. The next time you have free time in your gaming group, run the scenarios and record the results. Now, if the same battle session is run 100+ times, then you have something close to a statistical argument, which will allow you to run a significance test if you have access to SPSS or something similar (even Excel can run this calculation). What I noticed, when I ran the exercise with my players, is that Fighters at levels 1-10 have a distinct advantage over casters. Between levels 11-15 it was middling, and at higher levels casters were fairly one sided victors.



There are divergences in the classes, but Test of Spite is not equivalent to what I prescribe. The point of social science testing is to eliminate extraneous variables and test the variables that are pertinent to the question. In this case, class. Run the prescription sometime in your group, and if you've done it well and objectively, you'll have some hard data to back up hypotheses (which most of this thread is full of, and relying on other variables that have nothing to do with the classes in question).

Design a fighter of the level you want then, I guess. I actually have run some arena fights as a druid, and the druid tends to dominate pretty handily against everything but other casters. I don't see why they wouldn't. Can you actually come up with a reason why druids wouldn't dominate? What does a fighter have at any level that the druid doesn't have? You don't need arena fights to tell you this stuff. I also don't feel that I was attacking you personally. If anything that's what you're doing right now by calling us druid biased folks who only care about our alpha-nerdiness.

I suppose that I can run some basic competency tests that exist in a reasonable arena format, but if the "extraneous variables" that you're trying to remove are the druid's ability to be in wildshape all day, and use spells and skills to realize that the fighter is approaching long before he's in melee range, then you have a skewed idea of what an extraneous variable is. These are advantages that druids have over fighters. Removing them makes no sense in general.

[Aharon]

This is the problem with forums; it always devolves into personal attacks. My experience running all the classes at the prescribed levels gave me a different view of 3.5 than the common wisdom of this board. Until a person has run the numbers and witnessed the results in their own group, these sorts of discussions are so much displays of alpha-nerdness. The next time you have free time in your gaming group, run the scenarios and record the results. Now, if the same battle session is run 100+ times, then you have something close to a statistical argument, which will allow you to run a significance test if you have access to SPSS or something similar (even Excel can run this calculation). What I noticed, when I ran the exercise with my players, is that Fighters at levels 1-10 have a distinct advantage over casters. Between levels 11-15 it was middling, and at higher levels casters were fairly one sided victors.



There are divergences in the classes, but Test of Spite is not equivalent to what I prescribe. The point of social science testing is to eliminate extraneous variables and test the variables that are pertinent to the question. In this case, class. Run the prescription sometime in your group, and if you've done it well and objectively, you'll have some hard data to back up hypotheses (which most of this thread is full of, and relying on other variables that have nothing to do with the classes in question).

While the test of spite is not exactly equivalent to what you describe, it does a fine job of showing that at level 13, casters already have a tremendous advantage at high, but equal optimization levels.

[Emmerask]

Here is what you do:

take a flying form, fly around
let your companion kill the fighter while healing it flying around

laugh at the fighter

[Menzath]

hmmm, despite how much I have been "for" druids in this, I could copy a bow fighter a friend has made with a few tweaks that could consistently kill anything with less than 170hp AC mid thirties, in one round, past one range increment using normal WBL. No prestige class. just all fighter.

The only problem is that he would have to go first in order to win.

[Emmerask]

hmmm, despite how much I have been "for" druids in this, I could copy a bow fighter a friend has made with a few tweaks that could consistently kill anything with less than 170hp AC mid thirties, in one round, past one range increment using normal WBL. No prestige class. just all fighter.

The only problem is that he would have to go first in order to win.

The only thing you would show this way however is that optimization can do soooooooo much in 3.5 and not that the druid is inherently worse then a fighter ^^

If we would use the same level of optimization for the druid then this fighter build would most likely lose ^^

[Gavinfoxx]

Look at this druid... without any magical equipment whatsoever:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17bYfVxcXM8uKmxtQAOHgKN7MNchvqcMw31R-k-NPrTw/edit?authkey=CLWf4ugH&authkey=CLWf4ugH

It's level 18... but you could lower the starting ability scores and downlevel it to 16 if you would like.

If you want to remove Quicken Spell for Initiate of Nature, you could say to the player playing a fighter, it's like, "You see before you, a Dire Tiger, a Dire Bear, and a Twelve Headed Cryohydra. They all seem to be wearing armor, and all have several very obvious defensive spell effects up on their person. What do you do?"

[Menzath]

The only thing you would show this way however is that optimization can do soooooooo much in 3.5 and not that the druid is inherently worse then a fighter ^^

If we would use the same level of optimization for the druid then this fighter build would most likely lose ^^

Yup that is true. fighter would still be extremely limited given certain combat or non-combat situations.
But like I also mentioned a dragon wildshape druid as a rust dragon can win in possibly 1 round. Vs just about ANY fighter. Not including animal companion or spells.(Except maybe a con buff, that could also be gotten with items)

[FleshrakerAbuse]

This is the problem with forums; it always devolves into personal attacks. My experience running all the classes at the prescribed levels gave me a different view of 3.5 than the common wisdom of this board. Until a person has run the numbers and witnessed the results in their own group, these sorts of discussions are so much displays of alpha-nerdness. The next time you have free time in your gaming group, run the scenarios and record the results. Now, if the same battle session is run 100+ times, then you have something close to a statistical argument, which will allow you to run a significance test if you have access to SPSS or something similar (even Excel can run this calculation). What I noticed, when I ran the exercise with my players, is that Fighters at levels 1-10 have a distinct advantage over casters. Between levels 11-15 it was middling, and at higher levels casters were fairly one sided victors.

Huh. What advantages did the Fighters have? At really low levels, they have the same amount of hp and attacking ability of the druid or his animal. At higher levels, a druid can just stay farther away and kill the Fighter through summoning. The Fighter can't cover the ground fast enough to kill him. At that level, archer builds aren't good enough, and chargers can't touch the druid with his animal guard.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm reading your request as "Druid can fight melee better than a Fighter can, help me explain how".

I'm not certain this is strictly true unless you mean "cast spells on myself to help me fight better". However, a LVL 16 druid can Wild Shape into some seriously bad stuff and self-buff before the battle if time allows.

[Carth]

There are divergences in the classes, but Test of Spite is not equivalent to what I prescribe. The point of social science testing is to eliminate extraneous variables and test the variables that are pertinent to the question. In this case, class. Run the prescription sometime in your group, and if you've done it well and objectively, you'll have some hard data to back up hypotheses (which most of this thread is full of, and relying on other variables that have nothing to do with the classes in question).

Describe ideal test settings, then.

[Juntao112]

Would n be greater than 30 for the ideal test?

[FleshrakerAbuse]

I'd think that the perfect testing conditions:
weather variable= sunny blaring into druid's eyes.
terrain variable=10 by 5 ft plastic box with antimagic field
Oh, and n, the bonus temporary hp the fighter has =30 while the druid has -10 hp. Otherwise, it's 200. And the fighter suddenly gains 60 arms and 3 artifacts.

CaladanMoonblad, just kidding.:smalltongue: I'm not trying to insult your methods. They do make sense, it's just that the druid gains so many advantages. Even at low levels, a druid has so many more options. Wall of animal allies often spells difficulty for the melee fighter, while an archer fighter at low levels isn't very viable.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, well I agree the druid dominates.

But I think several people have underestimated the fighter. It is a 16th level character. It can probably fly via item, so I doubt flight is such a decisive advantage, barring the druid actually bothering to dispel and not just blasting the guy out of the sky.

As for the animal companion, does the druid have a way to make it immune to fear? Might be worth an item, as a good Intimidation build might not work on the druid, but could work on the animal companion.

Martial Study can add a few options to the fighter's list of cards to play (though the druid will still have the run of the table), and couple of them will be difficult for the druid to counter quickly. ToB also opens up the Crown of the White Raven items, which can add more tricks to the fighter's hat.

It's all pebbles to the druid's boulders, but they do add capabilities to the fighter that the wise druid should take time to countermeasure against.

The druid will probably curbstomp the fighter, but I don't think it's so straightforward that the druid can just saunter in there, fly around and carpet bomb.

Hmm, nice metaphor mixing on my part.

[Devronq]

Searing Spell + Fire Seeds

Please make 40 separate DC 25 reflex saves.

Fire Immunity? Okay you only take 20d8+320 damage

You made all your saves too? Well it's only 10d8+160 damage then.

Unless he has ring of evasion and some serious reflex save buffs he's soo dead.

wait what why are you making 40 different saves? can someone explain.

[eggynack]

Well, I've personally been talking about druid capacity entirely in core. Out of core, things get a whole lot more complicated. Suddenly, the druid's summons are all either greenbound summoned guys or rashemi elementals. The druid is a dire tortoise all the time, and is thus always acting in the surprise round. The spells generally just become universally crazier. The fight is probably closer, but it's still favorable for the druid.

[Phelix-Mu]

This all basically illustrates that D&D is essentially a cooperative game. Absolutely no thought was put into balancing the player classes for player v player, and the game just implodes when high tier characters take on lower tier ones, all op being equal.

The fighter can struggle, and maybe manage to die in a blaze of glory. But, if all you can hope for is not to be subjected to the ultimate in humiliation, you're better off just buddying up to the druid and helping him/her kill some orc lumberjacks or something.

(Not that the druid needs help. I mean, honestly, why would anyone in D&D actually cut down trees? It's hardly necessary, and for all the risk of some druid noticing and taking umbrage, it'd probably be more productive just to shoot yourself in the leg.)

Druids. They're like wizards with a mission. Be afraid.

[Randomguy]

So... aspect of the wolf, gives you the animal type. Animal growth youself and companion + summons. Wildshape to largest size/str creature.
if you add in magic fang, greater that is a grapple mod of
BaB +4(fang)+4(size mod from growth to str)+2(enchantment from bulls str or what have you+8 if you use largest bite spell)+12(For being gargantuan)+mod from new base creature.
so that is base str mod +22+BaB. Most of what you can change into that has good utility besides grapple that size has base str 29 or so.
so Base mod of 9 which is 31+BaB A 16druid has BaB 12.
total is grapple of 43. And that's a LOW grapple form.


Grapple was probably a bad example, it's much easier to avoid or get out of it with Anklets of translocation, as well as with multiclassing, but it can still be done:

Fighter Feats: IUS, Improved Grapple.
Non Fighter Feats: Abberrant blood (flexible limbs), 3 misc incarnum feats that give +1 essentia, shape soulmeld (Girallon's arms), Open lesser chakra (arms).
Equipment of note: + 6 belt of giant strength, + 4 inherint bonus to strength from the relevant tome, Glove of Giant's Grip.

With all essentia in Girallon's arms and strength from levels maxed out, and base 18 strength, that's +8+4+2+2 = +16 feats, +12 Str, +16BAB, + 8 from the gloves = +52 to grapple.

And that's without consumables that can increase size.

A better reason that the druid should stay out of melee: You're using several rounds and several spells, AND putting yourself at risk, for a grapple of +43, when you could just cast Summon Desert Ally 8, summon a Dusform Colossal centipede and get a grapple bonus of +44, or +46 if you've got Augment Summoning.

[eggynack]

This all basically illustrates that D&D is essentially a cooperative game. Absolutely no thought was put into balancing the player classes for player v player, and the game just implodes when high tier characters take on lower tier ones, all op being equal.

The fighter can struggle, and maybe manage to die in a blaze of glory. But, if all you can hope for is not to be subjected to the ultimate in humiliation, you're better off just buddying up to the druid and helping him/her kill some orc lumberjacks or something.

(Not that the druid needs help. I mean, honestly, why would anyone in D&D actually cut down trees? It's hardly necessary, and for all the risk of some druid noticing and taking umbrage, it'd probably be more productive just to shoot yourself in the leg.)

Druids. They're like wizards with a mission. Be afraid.
But... the game is even less balanced for PvE. The fighter can basically do nothing but fight stuff in an arena. Granted, the arena might be a dungeon, or an open field, but if the situation calls for anything that isn't stabbing, the fighter is screwed. In the fighting situation, where he is expected to fight stuff, he's still playing second fiddle to the things the druid is doing. The tier system pays almost zero attention to PvP, in favor of cooperative and standard gameplay. The game clearly still breaks down under those circumstances.

[137beth]

This all basically illustrates that D&D is essentially a cooperative game. Absolutely no thought was put into balancing the player classes for player v player, and the game just implodes when high tier characters take on lower tier ones, all op being equal.
Until fairly high levels, the non-druid tier 1s are considerably better with a team--the best wizard spells don't "kill" monsters, they completely disable them making it trivial for anyone else to kill them. In pvp, the wizard and cleric do considerably worse than they do in pve (again, until high levels).

The druid, on the other hand...

[Dr.Epic]

Level whatever fighter: HEY GUYS! Check out all my cool feats that just about anyone could get.

Level 16 druid: Oh, me, I can turn into a powerful animal. I have highly destructive spells, and great healing spells. I can summon monster spontaneously. My HD and BAB may only be average, but again, I can become a powerful creature several times each day that more than make up for that. Also I have an animal companion that basically makes me two people.

[Acanous]

Honestly I think the best scenerio for the fighter would be underground in a 30'x30' well-lit dungeon, with a 10' ceiling.
The combattants start 10' away from eachother.

That's an actual environment you could expect to encounter with decent frequency in a regular game.

[eggynack]

Honestly I think the best scenerio for the fighter would be underground in a 30'x30' well-lit dungeon, with a 10' ceiling.
The combattants start 10' away from eachother.

That's an actual environment you could expect to encounter with decent frequency in a regular game.
It still works out pretty well for the druid. Compared to a wizard, who tends to lose if initiative doesn't run his way (if he doesn't have abrupt jaunt), the druid always has some bear variant (beariant) standing in between the druid and stabby pain. If the animal companion can't take the fighter on its own, the animal companion + summoned guys + the wildshaped druid + whatever else the druid wants to toss in there = druidic success. Basically, Dr. Epic has it correct in general.

[Pickford]

At level 16, a druid can have a Dire Tiger for an animal companion. The druid can also turn into one. The druid buffs himself and his companion with the following spells, all of which last 20 hours with a Bead of Karma and can be cast in the morning.

Longstrider: +10ft movement speed
Pass Without Trace: Can't be tracked
Delay Poison: Can't be poisoned
Greater Magic Fang + Chain Spell: All of the druid's and the pet's natural weapons are now +5
Water Breathing: Can breathe underwater
Tree Shape: Can turn into a tree
Tree Stride: Can teleport through trees
Control Weather: Command the weather to make storms, for instance

Thus buffed, the druid and his pet can stalk the fighter with impunity (possibly casting shorter-duration Silent buffs before engaging - at this point even 10min/level spells last nearly three hours, and 1 minute/level spells last 200 rounds - enough for the druid to track the fighter once he's determined that they're close), then drop tornadoes on his position or simply jump out of a tree and tear him to pieces. If things are going poorly, they can Word of Recall or Tree Stride out of there and try again a few minutes later once they've healed up. During the fight, the druid can also cast Quickened buffs.
The fighter has no way to locate his enemies, and is completely at their mercy essentially whenever they feel like a snack.

Magic Fang is +1 per 'four' caster levels. So it's only +4 at 16, not +5.
Also you can't chain spells with range of touch or less. (range must be greater than touch).
Also chain spell would require another metamagic feat even if this were a valid option so there's that to consider (I'm guessing you are thinking quicken spell).

The other benefits you mentioned: +10 movement, can't be tracked, delay poison, water breathing all seem to be useless in this matchup. Although if you can find a reason the +10 movement is 'awesome' then I'd like to introduce you to my friend the monk.

Turning into a tree, similarly useless (So the fighter can just sunder you to death at their leisure?)

So far I'm unconvinced given the Fighter can invest all their resources into weaponry/armor whereas the Druid has to dump money into magic thingies so they can self buff for this totally surprising encounter.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Design a fighter of the level you want then, I guess. I actually have run some arena fights as a druid, and the druid tends to dominate pretty handily against everything but other casters. I don't see why they wouldn't. Can you actually come up with a reason why druids wouldn't dominate? What does a fighter have at any level that the druid doesn't have? You don't need arena fights to tell you this stuff. I also don't feel that I was attacking you personally. If anything that's what you're doing right now by calling us druid biased folks who only care about our alpha-nerdiness.

I suppose that I can run some basic competency tests that exist in a reasonable arena format, but if the "extraneous variables" that you're trying to remove are the druid's ability to be in wildshape all day, and use spells and skills to realize that the fighter is approaching long before he's in melee range, then you have a skewed idea of what an extraneous variable is. These are advantages that druids have over fighters. Removing them makes no sense in general.

Actually, we took the exact same stats from the DMG tables, using a standard array, and chose feats for each of the combatants that made a general sense using Core only rules so that each combatant would be ready for any class. This takes out "optimization" as a variable. At lower levels, the victor was generally the fighter due to ranged weapons and initiative, things started shifting at mid levels and casters were lopsided victors at high levels simply due to specific spells. When spells were randomized, martial characters went back to even odds.

I never said anything about removing Wild Shape. It is a class feature. It becomes pertinent only for levels 8+ due to Large types (otherwise, the druid starts with Medium shapes). If everything is related to Core, than the druid's choices to Wildshape are in the Monster Manual. If the Wild Shape ability from the PHB is strictly adhered to, the druid can only Wildshape into Animals at first, then Plants, then Elementals. Dragons or Magical Beasts are not part of this description. Many of the hypotheticals (hence hypotheses) in this thread achieve their extraneous results via specific mechanics outside of Core.

Your last paragraph, is called a Strawman btw. Please just respond to what is actually written, instead of making stuff up for your perceived rhetorical opposition. I also underlined the "I know you are but what am I" part of your quote. You decided to write that I had a personal stake in this, that I had something to prove. That is a personalizing taunt. Debates should be about ideas, not character, but my indictment was not aimed at you personally, r pro-druid persons, but rather to what I have noticed on this board in any given thread. This is apparent in the grammar; English has specific pronouns such as "you" or "they." So your round about accusation of hypocrisy is false. At best, you can claim I made a hasty generalization (and my response is simply my indictment is based on my time on this board). So ce la vie.


Huh. What advantages did the Fighters have? At really low levels, they have the same amount of hp and attacking ability of the druid or his animal. At higher levels, a druid can just stay farther away and kill the Fighter through summoning. The Fighter can't cover the ground fast enough to kill him. At that level, archer builds aren't good enough, and chargers can't touch the druid with his animal guard.

Actually, Fighters with the standard array have more HP by 25%. at low to mid levels, and maintain/increase that advantage all the way to 20. Multiple attacks are also useful to damage output. Look to pages 116-117 and compare the plain jane class builds against each other (which assumes average die rolls at 2-20). As for Animal Companions, I remember it was not a real issue from levels 1-13, since the combatants focused on each other. If I remember correctly, we had a Generic Fighter Build (melee/ranged). Our first feats were Weapon Focus in both Longsword and Longbow, with feat choices in both PB Shot and Multishot as well as Weapon Specialization by mid levels. The problem the Druid had was related to the 1 spell per round (we didn't allow preparation time, as this was an extraneous variable to the class question). Everyone started at full hitpoints, with a normal spell array (we even did some spell randomization to reflect a spell caster's random needs for the day).


Describe ideal test settings, then.

I gave suggestions above. We used a standard Chessex Battlemap, randomly tossed obstructions on the mat with 3 different sized stones to allow Total Cover, 1/2 cover, and 1/4 cover. We used the same set up for all battles, but we only ran best 2 out of 3 for each of the class pairings. Initiative was very important to battle outcome at later levels, but the martial classes (barbarian, fighter, ranger) did exceptionally well at lower to mid levels.


I'd think that the perfect testing conditions:
weather variable= sunny blaring into druid's eyes.
terrain variable=10 by 5 ft plastic box with antimagic field
Oh, and n, the bonus temporary hp the fighter has =30 while the druid has -10 hp. Otherwise, it's 200. And the fighter suddenly gains 60 arms and 3 artifacts.

CaladanMoonblad, just kidding.:smalltongue: I'm not trying to insult your methods. They do make sense, it's just that the druid gains so many advantages. Even at low levels, a druid has so many more options. Wall of animal allies often spells difficulty for the melee fighter, while an archer fighter at low levels isn't very viable.

Cute. Run the exercise/experiment with your group. Otherwise, it's all just bias and ontology. Like I said before, the pairings depend on the level for classes. Some are good at low levels, then it evens out, then they run behind. The victories of other players using caster classes is not so much the class, but the unique combinations/strategies/exploits they have learned over time (a hypothesis).

@Juntao112- it depends on your confidence interval. In social science, n > 130 is normal for a 0.95 confidence interval. The best 2 of 3 we ran in my group was actually qualitative in nature (n<20) to get a general feel for what was happening across all classes. It took an afternoon all told, but everyone got a taste of all the classes.

[Gavinfoxx]

At level 16, a Core only Druid is rocking Dire Tiger or Triceratops form with a Dire Tiger or Triceratops Animal Companion. Both of which have armor (he's had Wood Shape and Ironwood for quite some time), so at the very least, he has +1 Ironwood Breastplate Barding, given no actual wealth. That, plus D3 Greater Elementals with one spell, means that as far as 'melee hurt' goes, the Druid is way, way ahead...

[137beth]

Cute. Run the exercise/experiment with your group. Otherwise, it's all just bias and ontology. Like I said before, the pairings depend on the level for classes. Some are good at low levels, then it evens out, then they run behind. The victories of other players using caster classes is not so much the class, but the unique combinations/strategies/exploits they have learned over time (a hypothesis).
I don't know if he has run it with his group, but I know I have run it with mine, since this exact question came up numerous times. Druid beat fighter ~60% of the time at level 1, and wins "at least" 99% of the time at level 6 (no recorded losses, but experimental error could have resulted in a rare win for the fighter.) At level 11, the druid wins at least 95% of the time even when we purposely stacked things in favor of the fighter (they start in adjacent squares, fighter gets access to every book and all optimization cheese, while druid got only core and limited optimization).
At level 16, the druid has ways to bypass rolls entirely, giving it a true 100% chance of winning.
I'm sorry, but the data does not support your assertions.

[eggynack]

Actually, we took the exact same stats from the DMG tables, using a standard array, and chose feats for each of the combatants that made a general sense using Core only rules so that each combatant would be ready for any class. This takes out "optimization" as a variable. At lower levels, the victor was generally the fighter due to ranged weapons and initiative, things started shifting at mid levels and casters were lopsided victors at high levels simply due to specific spells. When spells were randomized, martial characters went back to even odds.

I can't really evaluate this, because I don't know the specifics of the builds in question. The random spells thing doesn't make much sense, because spells aren't random, and any druid with random spells would probably just turn the bad ones into bears of appropriate level. Druids actually do pretty well with arbitrary spells as a result, though it's nonindicative.



I never said anything about removing Wild Shape. It is a class feature. It becomes pertinent only for levels 8+ due to Large types (otherwise, the druid starts with Medium shapes). If everything is related to Core, than the druid's choices to Wildshape are in the Monster Manual. If the Wild Shape ability from the PHB is strictly adhered to, the druid can only Wildshape into Animals at first, then Plants, then Elementals. Dragons or Magical Beasts are not part of this description. Many of the hypotheticals (hence hypotheses) in this thread achieve their extraneous results via specific mechanics outside of Core.

I wasn't actually referring to wildshape itself. I was referring to wildshaping prior to a battle because you have access to it all day. It's also a pertinent ability starting at level 6, because even if you can't fight you can still evade. Becoming something with wings and casting windwall while summons and a companion go to work is an effective strategy at that level. I doubt that any given fighter would have flight at that point, so it's a bit of a game winner. I don't think I ever brought up dragons or magical beasts, though if we leave core, I believe that draconic wildshape is not an uncommon pick.



Your last paragraph, is called a Strawman btw. Please just respond to what is actually written, instead of making stuff up for your perceived rhetorical opposition. I also underlined the "I know you are but what am I" part of your quote. You decided to write that I had a personal stake in this, that I had something to prove. That is a personalizing taunt. Debates should be about ideas, not character, but my indictment was not aimed at you personally, r pro-druid persons, but rather to what I have noticed on this board in any given thread. This is apparent in the grammar; English has specific pronouns such as "you" or "they." So your round about accusation of hypocrisy is false. At best, you can claim I made a hasty generalization (and my response is simply my indictment is based on my time on this board). So ce la vie. It's not really a strawman at all. Are you saying that these encounters do have buff rounds in them? That's what my comment was implying, and buff rounds give even more of an edge to the druid. I never said that you had a personal stake, just that you were making a claim of any kind. Further, I am a member of this forum, and am thus a subcategory of insults made against its members. That seems clear cut enough to me. You made attacks, which is true no matter who you made them against. Additionally, I don't see how me saying that you were trying to make a point qualifies as an attack. It's just a true thing, and not even a particularly insulting one.

In any case, this is a simple enough thing. The real stopping factor for running fights is a level, so pick one. Your claims are that fighter sway over druids holds until some level, so it should probably be at that level, and then worked downward. Presumably, the fight should be at a pretty reasonable distance, because we'd be taking into account skills, and the druid should start the fight wildshaped, because you said that any other assertion would be a strawman argument.

Edit: Also, fighters do not have 25% more HP than druids. Fighters get 5.5 HP per level, and druids get 4.5 HP. That's already a smaller difference than 25%. Further, HD only account for some of the character's HP. In a standard array, both characters can be assumed to have a 14 in con. thus, the comparison is between 6.5 and 7.5, which is significantly less difference than you've claimed.

[Carth]

I gave suggestions above. We used a standard Chessex Battlemap, randomly tossed obstructions on the mat with 3 different sized stones to allow Total Cover, 1/2 cover, and 1/4 cover. We used the same set up for all battles, but we only ran best 2 out of 3 for each of the class pairings. Initiative was very important to battle outcome at later levels, but the martial classes (barbarian, fighter, ranger) did exceptionally well at lower to mid levels.


I'm not talking about terrain, I'm talking about what's allowed for test characters. Terrain is important, but definitely secondary compared to what you can do with characters.

Edit: though for what it's worth, unless you're going to throw in walls in ceilings, and other confinements, that environment favors casters, especially at level 6 and beyond.

[eggynack]

Also, just pointing this out, but I don't see how animal companions would be a non-issue from levels 1-13. That just seems wildly inaccurate. At level one, you have a riding dog who has the stats to hold back any given core melee build for a pretty long time. Stick some leather barding onto them, and they have 18 AC and 13 HP with a potential trip on every attack. Fighters are probably a bit better, but there's an argument there, which is a serious problem. This problem is exacerbated if you're sticking to the standard array, because dog stats look better relative to those than to better arrays. At level 3 they get another 2 HD, and then the next major advancement is at 7th when he becomes a brown bear. Bears might not be up to fighter power levels, but they're more than enough to keep a fighter busy for awhile. Elasmosaurus is also an option at that level, and they actually have equal CR to the fighter. There's also the giant crocodile if you want to go all in on grappling. The point here, is that animal companions are highly relevant, especially in early levels.

Another note, why exactly wouldn't the druid have preparation time? When I said, "If the "extraneous variables" that you're trying to remove are the druid's ability to be in wildshape all day, and use spells and skills to realize that the fighter is approaching long before he's in melee range, then you have a skewed idea of what an extraneous variable is. These are advantages that druids have over fighters. Removing them makes no sense in general," you said that that was a strawman argument. If the druid has the ability to see the fighter coming from a distance, due to his spells and skills, then it's only reasonable to assume that he'd have time to prepare. I conclude that my argument was not a strawman at all, and instead a wholly accurate portrayal of your position.

Edit: Also, in reference to this, "(we even did some spell randomization to reflect a spell caster's random needs for the day)," how does that make any sense? If you're having the battle in the middle of the day, then the characters wouldn't start the fight at full health. A druid, who often hangs out in mid-air and behind his friendly animal companion, uses spells as a resource instead of HP. Taking spells away from the druid, without taking HP away from the fighter, makes little to no sense.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

CaladanMoonblad, pages 116-117 mean the DMG, right? Okay.
Now, remember, using that build, I'm not sure how the druid lost at low levels... that takes skill to lose. The fighters in core don't get pounce, need to move to the druid to deal damage, and the animal companion can stall for long enough for the druid to win. If the fighter charges and strikes the druid, he does about 10 damage. The druid, with his 35 ish hp (now 25) then sidesteps and orders animals to appear in front. Wall of animals means that the fighter can not hurt him. Druid then proceeds to lay on buffing spells till they win.
Lemme actually test it with my group, though, to see what happens. That's the highly probable result.

After all, fighters gain a mainly inferior chassis. The only thing they get is 1 more extra hp per level. That's the amount one extra summoned creature could chunk off... in one round.

[dascarletm]

Also, just pointing this out, but I don't see how animal companions would be a non-issue from levels 1-13. That just seems wildly inaccurate. At level one, you have a riding dog who has the stats to hold back any given core melee build for a pretty long time. Stick some leather barding onto them, and they have 18 AC and 13 HP with a potential trip on every attack. Fighters are probably a bit better, but there's an argument there, which is a serious problem. This problem is exacerbated if you're sticking to the standard array, because dog stats look better relative to those than to better arrays. At level 3 they get another 2 HD, and then the next major advancement is at 7th when he becomes a brown bear. Bears might not be up to fighter power levels, but they're more than enough to keep a fighter busy for awhile. Elasmosaurus is also an option at that level, and they actually have equal CR to the fighter. There's also the giant crocodile if you want to go all in on grappling. The point here, is that animal companions are highly relevant, especially in early levels.

Another note, why exactly wouldn't the druid have preparation time? When I said, "If the "extraneous variables" that you're trying to remove are the druid's ability to be in wildshape all day, and use spells and skills to realize that the fighter is approaching long before he's in melee range, then you have a skewed idea of what an extraneous variable is. These are advantages that druids have over fighters. Removing them makes no sense in general," you said that that was a strawman argument. If the druid has the ability to see the fighter coming from a distance, due to his spells and skills, then it's only reasonable to assume that he'd have time to prepare. I conclude that my argument was not a strawman at all, and instead a wholly accurate portrayal of your position.

Edit: Also, in reference to this, "(we even did some spell randomization to reflect a spell caster's random needs for the day)," how does that make any sense? If you're having the battle in the middle of the day, then the characters wouldn't start the fight at full health. A druid, who often hangs out in mid-air and behind his friendly animal companion, uses spells as a resource instead of HP. Taking spells away from the druid, without taking HP away from the fighter, makes little to no sense.

Since PvP is less improtant than PvE, just pick like 3-4 different types of CR appropriate monsters, and see how two different builds fair, that should be fair.:smalltongue:

Or even better play multiple one-shot encounters with 3 other party members. Wasn't the original argument that the Druid outperforms the Fighter in its own role. So 3 party members, a wizard, a rogue, and a cleric. The fourth is either the druid or the fighter. Run it against each-other on multiple scenarios. See which party has the most fun.

[dascarletm]

CaladanMoonblad, pages 116-117 mean the DMG, right? Okay.
Now, remember, using that build, I'm not sure how the druid lost at low levels... that takes skill to lose. The fighters in core don't get pounce, need to move to the druid to deal damage, and the animal companion can stall for long enough for the druid to win. If the fighter charges and strikes the druid, he does about 10 damage. The druid, with his 35 ish hp (now 25) then sidesteps and orders animals to appear in front.

Does this fighter not have power attack?

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Or even better play multiple one-shot encounters with 3 other party members. Wasn't the original argument that the Druid outperforms the Fighter in its own role. So 3 party members, a wizard, a rogue, and a cleric. The fourth is either the druid or the fighter. Run it against each-other on multiple scenarios. See which party has the most fun.
The fighter party will have more fun because the fighter won't steal everyone's spotlights. :smalltongue:

Oh, and dacarletm, true. Good point, but it means +10 to damage at 5th level with nearly no chance of hitting. I'll see, though!

[eggynack]

Since PvP is less improtant than PvE, just pick like 3-4 different types of CR appropriate monsters, and see how two different builds fair, that should be fair.:smalltongue:

Or even better play multiple one-shot encounters with 3 other party members. Wasn't the original argument that the Druid outperforms the Fighter in its own role. So 3 party members, a wizard, a rogue, and a cleric. The fourth is either the druid or the fighter. Run it against each-other on multiple scenarios. See which party has the most fun.
It's definitely fair, it's just tricky as hell. It might be a nice break from running combats using a barbarian against equal CR'd opponents, and seeing who wins. The latter situation is probably the best test, though I'd put success level at a premium above fun. I'm not going to make any judgements on anything as subjective as that, although druids are definitely more fun to me. Still, I think if either situation is ever doable, it's the first one. Ideally we'd have something that didn't have crazy levels of time investment from a pile of people. I might stick together some basic druid builds. What levels/books/stat selection/other restrictions anyways? Also, if we have the builds anyway, running the characters at each other would be pretty trivial.

It's notable that there are certain levels at which I think a druid always has an advantage no matter what. There's basically no CR 1 opponent who will really challenge a first level druid, because riding dogs are actually pretty high up there for that CR. There's other levels that I think are like that, though I suppose that that's what we'd be testing.

[eggynack]

The fighter party will have more fun because the fighter won't steal everyone's spotlights. :smalltongue:

Oh, and dacarletm, true. Good point, but it means +10 to damage at 5th level with nearly no chance of hitting. I'll see, though!
I don't think that either of these claims are necessarily true. I think that a wizard cleric druid rogue party would be more fun than a wizard cleric fighter rogue party, because the DM can just run encounters at the wizard level, and make the rogue sad. If the druid is a fighter, then half of the party members will always be sad instead of 3/4's. For the power attack thing, all we'd really have to do to test that claim is put the numbers through a power attack calculator. When I was running barbarians, I found that it was often a beneficial feat even at low levels. It wasn't enough to win the game single handed, but it's a powerful thing. I don't know if those results work for fighters too, but it's worth testing.

[Sugashane]

If both players are competent with their characters, the only way the fighter is going to win is if he is a charger and wins initiative, that or is rolling hot (Ie- crit after crit).

[Yogibear41]

The smart fighter would have killed the druid when they were both still level 1.

[dascarletm]

It's definitely fair, it's just tricky as hell. It might be a nice break from running combats using a barbarian against equal CR'd opponents, and seeing who wins. The latter situation is probably the best test, though I'd put success level at a premium above fun. I'm not going to make any judgements on anything as subjective as that, although druids are definitely more fun to me. Still, I think if either situation is ever doable, it's the first one. Ideally we'd have something that didn't have crazy levels of time investment from a pile of people. I might stick together some basic druid builds. What levels/books/stat selection/other restrictions anyways? Also, if we have the builds anyway, running the characters at each other would be pretty trivial.

It's notable that there are certain levels at which I think a druid always has an advantage no matter what. There's basically no CR 1 opponent who will really challenge a first level druid, because riding dogs are actually pretty high up there for that CR. There's other levels that I think are like that, though I suppose that that's what we'd be testing.

I was mostly joking about the fun part.
I doubt we really need to run this comparison. It would be more fun to run similar powered characters, or even different builds of the same class.
3 Encounters roughly like this:
CR Adult Red Dragon in a Molten Cavern.
6 Trolls in a heavy forest
A mindflayer sorcerer with 3 minotaurs, and 20 goblins.

Not this exactly have the encounters secret.

EDIT:

The fighter party will have more fun because the fighter won't steal everyone's spotlights. :smalltongue:

Oh, and dacarletm, true. Good point, but it means +10 to damage at 5th level with nearly no chance of hitting. I'll see, though!

Oh don't PA for all of your BaB. PA is hard to use in these things. Since we can use a PA table if we know the AC to optimize damage.

[eggynack]

The smart fighter would have killed the druid when they were both still level 1.
I suppose if he could, and if he knew that the druid were there somehow. Both seem highly dubious to me. the latter for the obvious reason that the druid, with his spells, is far more likely to know about the fighter earlier than the fighter knows about the druid. The other part, the part where a level one fighter is more powerful than a level one druid, seems incorrect also. First, you have to get past the druid's riding dog. As I mentioned earlier, the riding dog has 18 AC and 13 HP. The fighter is likely to have fewer HP and less AC. He only has about 150 GP at that level, so his AC likely maxes out at 17, unless he has 18 dex with a chain shirt for some reason. In terms of offense, the fighter is probably a bit better. I don't think it's to a degree that significantly favors him, especially because the druid has spells, decent HP, and can help plink away with a sling or spear. The fact that the dog gets free trip attempts on a constant basis is also helpful. Really, just toss down an entangle field on the fighter, and have the riding dog engage him, and the fighter seems likely to die.

[eggynack]

I was mostly joking about the fun part.
I doubt we really need to run this comparison. It would be more fun to run similar powered characters, or even different builds of the same class.
3 Encounters roughly like this:
CR Adult Red Dragon in a Molten Cavern.
6 Trolls in a heavy forest
A mindflayer sorcerer with 3 minotaurs, and 20 goblins.

Not this exactly have the encounters secret.

I figured as much. Just thought I'd bring it up, cause that's a whole different can of argument flavored beans. Those encounters do seem halfway reasonable, but they also seem to be of different CR's. Like, I suppose I could stick together a halfway decent level 15 druid build at some point, to fight a cavern dragon. It seems like more stuff to put together druids of several different levels. For the dragon fight at least, that seems like the kinda fight where you'd know what you're preparing for beforehand, while the second appears more ambushy, and the third seems somewhere in the middle. Anyway, one decent way to do this might be to basically just say what the druid would do in a given situation rather than playing everything out with probability. Applying math straight on to 15th level druids seems like a fools errand. Every round is like a frigging branching pathway of insanity from which there is no escape.

[Flickerdart]

The smart fighter would have killed the druid when they were both still level 1.
You mean at the level where the druid gets a fighter as a class feature? Dream on.

[dascarletm]

I figured as much. Just thought I'd bring it up, cause that's a whole different can of argument flavored beans. Those encounters do seem halfway reasonable, but they also seem to be of different CR's. Like, I suppose I could stick together a halfway decent level 15 druid build at some point, to fight a cavern dragon. It seems like more stuff to put together druids of several different levels. For the dragon fight at least, that seems like the kinda fight where you'd know what you're preparing for beforehand, while the second appears more ambushy, and the third seems somewhere in the middle. Anyway, one decent way to do this might be to basically just say what the druid would do in a given situation rather than playing everything out with probability. Applying math straight on to 15th level druids seems like a fools errand. Every round is like a frigging branching pathway of insanity from which there is no escape.

True, I purposefully used different CRs. For a level 15-16 the Dragon should be a challenge, the Trolls should be fairly easy, and the last one they'd probably lose. I like giving a neigh impossible battle.

[eggynack]

True, I purposefully used different CRs. For a level 15-16 the Dragon should be a challenge, the Trolls should be fairly easy, and the last one they'd probably lose. I like giving a neigh impossible battle.
Ah, so this is all assuming a level 16 character? That probably makes sense. I figure that any given druid should generally be able to take out enemies somewhere above his CR. The effect of a pile of minotaurs and goblins on a 16th level druid is honestly pretty marginal, so it's really down to how well he can take down a mindflayer. I suppose it's partially dependent on book access, but I don't think it's impossible by any means. It's definitely tricky, and will likely require some thought though. It's just an example battle though, so I probably shouldn't look too deeply into it. If the druid is prepared for the fight at all, it shouldn't be that hard. The only thing that really needs to be changed out for individual fights are the day to day stuff, and even that can be subsumed by the power of mass summons.

[dascarletm]

Ah, so this is all assuming a level 16 character? That probably makes sense. I figure that any given druid should generally be able to take out enemies somewhere above his CR. The effect of a pile of minotaurs and goblins on a 16th level druid is honestly pretty marginal, so it's really down to how well he can take down a mindflayer. I suppose it's partially dependent on book access, but I don't think it's impossible by any means. It's definitely tricky, and will likely require some thought though. It's just an example battle though, so I probably shouldn't look too deeply into it. If the druid is prepared for the fight at all, it shouldn't be that hard. The only thing that really needs to be changed out for individual fights are the day to day stuff, and even that can be subsumed by the power of mass summons.

Never underestimate weak enemies when played smart, and with a mindflayer controlling them... I remember a certain group of kobolds...

Have the DM use the enemies tactically and suit the terrain to their highest advantage.

[Cerlis]

One shouldn't be arguing that a druid is better than a fighter, or that a druid could kill a fighter.

They should be talking about how a druid is a better fighter than a fighter

Talking about turning into birds and raining down lighting doesnt say anything about a druid being a better fighter. Because that doesn't exemplify what a fighter does. All that does is say that Flying is a good way to deal with melee , as is casting damaging spells.

The system wasn't made with the notion of all classes being equally powered so devolving into a "why magic is better" topic is pointless.

Also pointing out how a druid can Do This! better with the aid of that feat or that magic item is also pointless. It would be like saying that magic isnt all that powerful because you make a melee character who is almost immune to all magic and can teleport at will.

Also since its the notion of Playing a druid vs a fighter than whether or not they can beat EACH OTHER is also irrelevant.

It should be looked at at all levels.
All power levels.
in game given WBL
over the course of at least 4 encounters in a day with other things taking up resources (such as healing, looking for information, and roleplaying)

To give just one example of how this is relevant, a druid can turn into a bear at level 5 for 5 hours and be stronger than a fighter, outgrapple him and probably do more damage. However if he does that as a reaction to being woken up by a pack of dire wolves in the morning that power is completely nullified before noon. Hell the druid probably turns back to humanoid form a few minutes after the wolves are taken care of (and they believe they wont face anymore attacks) effectively wasting 4.9 hours of his ability. Later in the day maybe he casts entangle (which merely helps characters like the fighter finish off the enemy) and maybe kills a few mooks with a fire summoning spell.

by the end of the day he has maybe 1 or 2 1st level spells left which he'd probably want to save just incase they get woken up by fangs again in the middle of the night, effectively nullifying MORE of his power.

Also assuming he is the only spellcaster in the party (or 1 of 2) its likely after a day of chaos that he has NO spells left.

[Malroth]

To keep this fair lets use the zero optimization sample NPCs Mialee Jozan, and LIdda to accompany this druid and the fighter while they try to be the melee/ranged damage guy vs a variety of encounters.

[eggynack]

Never underestimate weak enemies when played smart, and with a mindflayer controlling them... I remember a certain group of kobolds...

Have the DM use the enemies tactically and suit the terrain to their highest advantage.
Eh, I guess. It feels different than tucker's kobolds though. We're talking about a high level druid here. They have flight, and a lot of it. I might be missing something, but even sorcerer mindflayers can do very little to make a group of groundbound enemies into flying threats. I'm not saying that these things are zero level threats to a 16th level druid, I'm just saying exactly that, in exactly those words, but maybe in a nice way. Terrain doesn't mean much to flight.

One shouldn't be arguing that a druid is better than a fighter, or that a druid could kill a fighter.

They should be talking about how a druid is a better fighter than a fighter

Talking about turning into birds and raining down lighting doesnt say anything about a druid being a better fighter. Because that doesn't exemplify what a fighter does. All that does is say that Flying is a good way to deal with melee , as is casting damaging spells.

The system wasn't made with the notion of all classes being equally powered so devolving into a "why magic is better" topic is pointless.

Also pointing out how a druid can Do This! better with the aid of that feat or that magic item is also pointless. It would be like saying that magic isnt all that powerful because you make a melee character who is almost immune to all magic and can teleport at will.

Also since its the notion of Playing a druid vs a fighter than whether or not they can beat EACH OTHER is also irrelevant.

It should be looked at at all levels.
All power levels.
in game given WBL
over the course of at least 4 encounters in a day with other things taking up resources (such as healing, looking for information, and roleplaying)

To give just one example of how this is relevant, a druid can turn into a bear at level 5 for 5 hours and be stronger than a fighter, outgrapple him and probably do more damage. However if he does that as a reaction to being woken up by a pack of dire wolves in the morning that power is completely nullified before noon. Hell the druid probably turns back to humanoid form a few minutes after the wolves are taken care of (and they believe they wont face anymore attacks) effectively wasting 5.9 hours of his ability. Later in the day maybe he casts entangle (which merely helps characters like the fighter finish off the enemy) and maybe kills a few mooks with a fire summoning spell.

by the end of the day he has maybe 1 or 2 1st level spells left which he'd probably want to save just incase they get woken up by fangs again in the middle of the night, effectively nullifying MORE of his power.

Also assuming he is the only spellcaster in the party (or 1 of 2) its likely after a day of chaos that he has NO spells left.
There're a few things that invalidate a few parts of your argument. First of all, your point against wildshape. I might not stand for everyone, but I don't really use wildshape at level five much, and certainly not for combat. If I'm using wildshape to hit something, I'm going to be at large forms at 8th level. If I'm using it before then, I'm becoming a bird of some kind and using a different resource from my own punching. The level at which I'd become a bird is level 6, when natural spell comes online. At that point, you go from wildshape 5 hours a day, to wildshape 12 hours a day. At level 7, you're wildshaped for 21 hours, and when you actually start punching on your own, at level 8, you're a bear on a 24/7 basis. I also probably wouldn't just morph back into human form with no provocation, in particular for the reason you've stated. Why would I turn off an ability that's good for five hours, five minutes in?

Second of all, druidic power doesn't rely on particular feats or magic items. It relies on natural spell, but that's more of a feat tax than a particular feat. Just about everyone can and does take it, so I don't think it's unfair to assume that any particular druid of 6th level has it. Fighters are hurt much more by limiting their access to stuff. Druids can change their whole build with very little downtime, and they never really need items for it.

Third, you brought up limits on spells per day, and on wildshapes per day, but you never brought up animal companions. This is important, because as the viability of having a pseudo-fighter in the party decreases, and it does, the druid's spells per day and wildshape access grows to cover the entire day, four encounters and all. For this reason, there's really no point in his progression at which he is weak.

Fourth, you brought up becoming a druid and raining lightning, but the thing that makes them really emulate a fighter is becoming a bird and raining bears. Between the animal companion, later wildshape forms, and spontaneous summons, any given druid has access to a vast array of meat shields and beat sticks. It's something he's spectacularly good at. The trick, is that the druid never actually has to engage in melee to be a good fighter. All he has to do is summon a giant crocodile five feet from the enemy caster's face, and he's as good a fighter as you could want.

Basically, druids are better fighters than fighters are. They get access to a lot of the durability and fighting potential of fighters, and trade in the marginal bonus to that ability for piles of spells. The lightning part of the bird flying around and shooting lightning is important, because it's something the druid can do while also being a fighter. While he's doing that, consuming only one spell slot due to call lightning, he also has a bear, running around and killing enemies, and he has whatever summons are level appropriate. The fighter basically just gets to be the bear. and can never also be the lightning bird, or the summons. This is what makes the druid great.

Edit: A note on kobolds, minotaurs, and the durability thereof, is this a core fight or isn't it? If it is, then there's some effect that these guys will have, and it'll probably be similar to the effect that the druid's animal companion has on the fight. If the fight isn't purely core, then the meatshields become far less threatening to a 16th level druid. If the druid can get a round in which he doesn't die, which he will if he's either a dire tortoise or a flying guy of some kind, (presumably with some access to rapid spell or something. It's not the least likely thing.) then he can summon orglashes. Like, orglashes plural.

The viability of rashemi elemental summoning kinda tops out at huge, so what I'd probably do is have a rapid summon nature's ally VII for 1d3 huge orglashes. It could also just be one orglash out of a 7th level slot, it doesn't matter much. Either way, we're talking 15d6 cold damage, 3/day. It's an average of 52.5 cold damage per cone, which isn't that much really, but it's enough to kill any minotaurs or kobolds you get in range of the cone. The full set of cones is enough to kill a mindflayer sorcerer if he doesn't make his saves, and that's all from one standard action. After the cones, you're left with a handy huge orglash, which would probably be worth the slot even without the cones. An ordinary huge air elemental has 136 HP, and this isn't an ordinary huge air elemental. You're getting an extra 4 HP per hit dice between augment summoning and the template, which means that the orglash is sitting on 200 HP. Also note that this isn't idle theory crafting. This is pretty much the exact build I would use for any given encounter with this level of book access. There's some variation in exactly how I'd use the resources that the character would have, but the build would stay the same, as befits a druid of high standing.

Things get more complicated when stuck in core, but I'm sure that it's nothing that a group of D&D optimizers can't handle. Moreover, trapping the druid in core means trapping the fighter in core. I'm not even sure if a core fighter could handle the troll fight.

[Pickford]

One shouldn't be arguing that a druid is better than a fighter, or that a druid could kill a fighter.

They should be talking about how a druid is a better fighter than a fighter

Talking about turning into birds and raining down lighting doesnt say anything about a druid being a better fighter. Because that doesn't exemplify what a fighter does. All that does is say that Flying is a good way to deal with melee , as is casting damaging spells.

The system wasn't made with the notion of all classes being equally powered so devolving into a "why magic is better" topic is pointless.

Also pointing out how a druid can Do This! better with the aid of that feat or that magic item is also pointless. It would be like saying that magic isnt all that powerful because you make a melee character who is almost immune to all magic and can teleport at will.

Also since its the notion of Playing a druid vs a fighter than whether or not they can beat EACH OTHER is also irrelevant.

It should be looked at at all levels.
All power levels.
in game given WBL
over the course of at least 4 encounters in a day with other things taking up resources (such as healing, looking for information, and roleplaying)

To give just one example of how this is relevant, a druid can turn into a bear at level 5 for 5 hours and be stronger than a fighter, outgrapple him and probably do more damage. However if he does that as a reaction to being woken up by a pack of dire wolves in the morning that power is completely nullified before noon. Hell the druid probably turns back to humanoid form a few minutes after the wolves are taken care of (and they believe they wont face anymore attacks) effectively wasting 4.9 hours of his ability. Later in the day maybe he casts entangle (which merely helps characters like the fighter finish off the enemy) and maybe kills a few mooks with a fire summoning spell.

by the end of the day he has maybe 1 or 2 1st level spells left which he'd probably want to save just incase they get woken up by fangs again in the middle of the night, effectively nullifying MORE of his power.

Also assuming he is the only spellcaster in the party (or 1 of 2) its likely after a day of chaos that he has NO spells left.

The Fighter can use ranged weaponry.

Ex: Composite greatbow dealing 1d10 + str bonus damage from 120' range increments

vs. A sling. 1d4 + str bonus from 50' range increment.

Say it's a human fighter using elite array with 15 str and 14 dex, 13 con.
Assuming the druid put 14 or 15 in con they would have 10 hp (probably not though, more likely 8 hp)

Fighter with str bonus on from the composite weapon kills on a hit in 3/10 cases (assuming 10 hp total) and 5/10 cases when the druid only has 8 hp.

Fighter hits said target in 7/20 cases. Given their near identical movement speed at 1st that's basically a no-joy for the Druid, ever.

[Snowbluff]

Between the Druid's spells and the cover on the field, an archer fighter might be the worst possible choice for 16 vs 16.

How could a level 1 fighter afford a strength rating?

[Pickford]

Between the Druid's spells and the cover on the field, an archer fighter might be the worst possible choice for 16 vs 16.

How could a level 1 fighter afford a strength rating?

A wizard did it.
Or if we're talking crossbows: Crossbow Sniper, though then it's just dex we care about.

Ok the 16 fighter has 4 ability point increases and +6 to both str and dex, that's say a 24 str and 22 dex. (+7/+6)

BAB +16/+11/+6/+1
RAB +22/+17/+12/+7
Weapon Focus+Greater Weapon Focus+Ranged Weapon Master:
+26/+21/+16/+11
+5 enhancement on the bow
+31/+26/+21/+16

For damage:
A composite greatbow could be +5 enhancement/+7 draw/+2 weapon spec/+2 ranged weapon mastery
for 1d10 + 16/x3 or 17-26 (51-78) per hit. If the druid is in dire tiger form it'll have an AC of 17, so we're looking at all hitting for between: 68-104 (204-312) per round. The Druid has (at most) 15d8+8 +con bonus (128 + (con bonus x 16)) hp and (likely) dies instantly.

within 30' there's another +1 to damage/hit from point blank shot and if we were really just going to be an incredible archer the fighter easily gets all the other ranged attack feats.

But of course, as we can see from the minimum damage range, that's just overkill

[Flickerdart]

If the druid is in dire tiger form it'll have an AC of 17
You...don't really know Druids very well, do you.

[Gavinfoxx]

After a certain point, Archery is a bad idea to try against the Druid, because:

Cloudburst
Snowsight
Summon Swarm
Obscuring Snow
Artic Haze
Wind Wall
Boreal Wind
Control Winds
Blizzard
Avalanche

etc. etc.

Also, that 'no magic gear' druid I linked to, at level 18, had AC ~34 when in most of her forms. Sometimes ~38.

The one for this post, eh?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15235027&postcount=50

[Pickford]

You...don't really know Druids very well, do you.

According to the MM the druid uses the form's natural armor and dex.
edit2: Also, the to-hit is without even optimizing.

edit: Gavin you don't include a dire tiger form in that so it doesn't include this example.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, no, I didn't write up the buffed stats. But the Animal Companion, with hours/level buffs only, is sitting at 33 armor class, and there would only be incidental, minor differences between that and the druid in dire tiger or celestial dire tiger form. So that's, what, -1 size, +3 Dex, +8 natural +5 natural beyond that, +8 Armor?

[Pickford]

Well, no, I didn't write up the buffed stats. But the Animal Companion, with hours/level buffs only, is sitting at 33 armor class, and there would only be incidental, minor differences between that and the druid in dire tiger or celestial dire tiger form. So that's, what, -1 size, +3 Dex, +8 natural +5 natural beyond that, +8 Armor?

Is that second bonus meant to be the enhancement bonus to AC? Because if the item gets subsumed into the new form...you see where I'm going with this right? Also, the actual armor.

edit:
In case I'm being too opaque, from the PHB under wild shape:

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the assumed form and becomes nonfunctional.

edit2:
This of course means the druid has no bonuses from gear in their dire tiger form and would thus 'only' benefit from the shape itself (AC 17) and any magical spells that were cast previously or afterwards.

So...Barkskin could be a +5 (though it's only going to last for 160 minutes at level 16); Cat's Grace for another +2 from the dex mod increase (only 16 minutes a pop though); So, in the breach, a druid could be up to 24 AC with both spells cast on them...

What am I missing?

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, the armor bonus comes from a spell, silly. Read more closely! The subsumed armor was a 2 ac leather barding or a 4 ac spell leather barding for a medium size form, depending.

You wear normal leather armor, cast greater luminous armor, wild shape into a medium form, use segojan's armor for that, wild shape again into your big form, and greater luminous armor, being a spell effect, sticks. Or you cast greater luminous armor in your big form. Whatever. Or you have an assistant help you put on your ironwood breastplate barding after you wild shape, if you want to be mundane about it.

You're missing "Greater Luminous Armor" from book of exalted deeds. You are also missing "Segojan's Armor" from an online link. You are missing the fact that animal forms can wear armor after they wild shape. You're missing the fact that you can wear multiple armors, but only the best applies. You're missing that after they wild shape, they can carry gear or use armor, and that armor that is glowy force spell armor that happens to provide an armor bonus doesn't subsume, and if it does, you just cast it AFTER you Wild Shape into your adventuring form for the day.

[Pickford]

Well, the armor bonus comes from a spell, silly. Read more closely! The subsumed armor was a 2 ac leather barding or a 4 ac spell leather barding for a medium size form, depending.

You wear normal leather armor, cast greater luminous armor, wild shape into a medium form, use segojan's armor for that, wild shape again into your big form, and greater luminous armor, being a spell effect, sticks. Or you cast greater luminous armor in your big form. Whatever. Or you have an assistant help you put on your ironwood breastplate barding after you wild shape, if you want to be mundane about it.

Took me some searching to find Luminous Armor (BoED) but I'd like to mention it includes a str damage sacrifice at the end of the spell (1d3) so this isn't something the druid can do every day. (Or they'll rather rapidly become an invalid)
Also it can only target a 'good' character. (Meaning only a Neutral Good druid can cast it)

As a result luminous armor won't affect the animal companion...not because it's an animal per se, but rather because it, like all animals, is neutral, not neutral good.

Putting on an actual breastplate armor takes 4 minutes (2 minutes assisted) So..the fight would probably be over in that time.

Not sure how Segojan's armor:

midway down the page: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041117a
Segojan's Armor
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 1, Druid 1, Ranger 1
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Effect: One suit of armor for a Medium or smaller creature
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You fabricate a suit of armor from natural materials that is suitable for a creature of Medium or smaller size (you determine the armor's size at the time of casting, and it cannot change after that). The armor is equivalent to leather except that it grants a +4 armor bonus. That is, it has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of 0, and an arcane spell failure chance of 10%. It weighs as much as leather armor of similar size weighs (for example, 15 pounds if the armor is made for a Medium creature). The armor has a trace amount of metal in it (see material components section); however a druid can wear it without penalty.

When the spell ends, the armor falls apart, breaking back into the materials from which you made it. The armor's remains cannot be reused for another spell.

factor's in given that it creates an actual suit of armor and thus won't stack with the luminous armor bonus.

[Gavinfoxx]

To clarify, here is the spell list part of that document:


L1: 8 slots

Segojan’s Armor: 1x (Use for medium form, like your dragon form)

Kuo-Toa Skin: 3x (Use on self and animals, be sure to share the selfcast with companion)

Entangle 2x

Enrage Animal 1x -- use on your animal companion if you want! Or the bear! You can use it with Swift Concentration if you care to, or drop the concentration


L2: 8 Slots

Heart of Air (Personal, only works on you and AC)

Cloud Wings

Lesser Restoration (2x) -- For your Greater luminous armor and not sleeping

Bull’s Strength - 2x

Bear’s Endurance - 2x

L3: 7 Slots

Greater Magic Fang (3x) -- give a +1 to all natural weapns for 1- you and AC, 2. wild cohort, 3 commanded animal

Venomfire 1x

Heart of Water 1x (Personal, only works on you and AC)

Scales of the Sealord 1x (Personal--Only works on you and Animal Companion)

Treasure Scent 1x

L4: 7 Slots

Greater Luminous Armor (1x, share with animal companion via share spells; doesn’t work on other animals because they aren’t good aligned)

Heart of Earth

Extended Spiderskin (2x -- use on the OTHER two animals, a few minutes before you expect a fight)

Extended Giant’s Wrath (1x) -- use when in a Dire Polar Bear form... with bull’s strength up...

Dispel Magic (2x)

L5: 6 Slots

Heart of Fire (Personal, use on you and your AC)

Cloak of the Sea (1x)

Quickened Briar Web (1x) (Use in boss fights)

Quickened Bite of the Wererat (1x) (Use in boss fights)

Baleful Polymoph (2x)

L6: 6 Slots

Energy Immunity: Fire

Energy Immunity: Cold

Energy Immunity: Acid

Energy Immunity: Electricity

Energy Immunity: Sonic

Superior Resistance

(note that there is a trick to these, if you want to have more level 6 slots: extend spell them with a rod of extend spell, and cast half of them one day half of them another day. See superior resistance bit for level 7 as well)

L7: 4 Slots

Quickened Arctic Haze

Extended Fire Seeds (1x)

((Every other day)) Extended Superior Resistance (2x) (Here is how it works: Day 1. Cast extended superior resistance on self and share with animal companion, and another one one of the other animals. Cast Superior resistance on the last animal. Day 2: Cast Normal superior resistance on the last animal. Prepare a few more fire seeds or quickened arctic haze’s or whatever that day) Day three: Repeat day 1. Or adventure every other day, and fill up your l7 slots with Extened Superior Resistance and Extended Energy Immunity on your off days)

L8: 4 Slots

Leonal’s Roar

Quickened Freedom of Movement (2x) -- When you need this, you really need this...

Quickened Vortex of Teeth

L9: 3 Slots

Summon Elemental Monolith (Remember to use Swift Concentration on this one...)

Shapechange (2x)

[Gavinfoxx]

Sure it is something they can do every day, because they have two Lesser Restorations (2nd level spell) prepared every day! Or possibly three, if you want. :) :)

Heal the Str damage, easy. Druids a primary healer, eh?

And all the armor bonus is coming from Greater Luminous Armor. The Segojan's is just a backup, to use in your medium sized dragon form. And you can use Greater Luminous Armor on your animal companion because of Share Spells. If not, you just buy barding for your animal companion; if they aren't proficient, just make sure to get the armor check penalty down to 0.

[Gavinfoxx]

You could also just take Celestial Companion if you wanted to cast that armor spell on your animal companion, and DM rules that share spell doesn't work if they aren't good aligned.

Edit: here's the list of always up spells:


List of ‘always up’ spells (except for a few hours a day)

Segojan’s armor -- when in main Dragon form, is wearing a leather armor/ barding that adds +4 armor bonus, 0 acp.

Kuo-Toa Skin -- Skin of self and Animal Companion has an oily sheen, +8 untyped bonus to escape artist, and cannot be snared by webs

Heart of Air -- Self and animal companion get +10 enhancement bonus to jump checks, and fly speeds all get +10 enhancment bonus to speed

Heart of Water -- Self and Animal Companion have a +8 racial bonus to swim checks, always has a swim speed at least equal to land speed, can breathe water, +5 enhancement bonus to escape artist checks

Heart of Earth -- Self and Animal Companion have a +8 bonus to resist bull rush, overrun, trip. Has 30 temporary hitpoints

Heart of Fire -- Resist fire 20. +10 Enhancement bonus to land speed

ALL FOUR HEART SPELLS UP -- full fortification; immune to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attack -- on self and animal companion

Cloud Wings -- 30 feet untyped bonus to existing fly speed

Greater Magic Fang -- All Natural Weapons have +1 Enhancement Bonus

Venomfire -- All natural poison attacks that you do add 18d6 points of acid damage

Scales of the Sealord -- untyped 10 feet bonus to existing swim speed. +5 natural armor bonus (in addition to normal natural armor). -5 charisma penalty toward nonaquatic creatures

Treasure Scent -- Can smell copper, gold, silver, platinum, and gems within 30 feet by sense of smell, or 60 feet if upwind. Strong scents like Open treasure chests can be detected at twice this range. overpowering scents like a dragon hoard can be detected at three times this range.

Greater Luminous Armor -- Self and animal companion are treated as if in full plate, but with no penalty. Also at the center of a Daylight spell. Also, opponents take a -4 penalty to melee attacks against you

Cloak of the Sea -- when underwater, self and AC are treated as if under blur, freedom of movement, water breathing, and are immune to nonlethal damage. When not underwater, only water breathing is up

Energy Immunity -- Self and AC are immune to the damaging effects of fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic damage, but not secondary non-damaging effects of the same.

Superior Resistance -- +6 Resistance bonus to saves

[Flickerdart]

Greater Magic Fang -- All Natural Weapons have +1 Enhancement Bonus
Don't you mean +5 (with Bead of Karma)?

[Gavinfoxx]

That particular Druid was done without access to magic items. A friend of mine was like, "Ack, I am in a level 18 game, and DM said I only have access to mundane items at game start, what do I do? Also, I don't think this DM understands what a level 18 character means, what can I do to show him more of what level 18 characters can do? I want to push magic item independent characters as far as they can go!"

[Flickerdart]

+4 then, from straight CL.

[Snowbluff]

As for items equipped to the Druid... Wilding Clasps.

Also, Druid isn't limited to the animal spells. They get a full set of the Bite of- spells that would increase AC further.

An Ankh of Ascension could be helpful for CL as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

"Alternatively, you may imbue all of the creature’s natural weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (regardless of your caster level)."
^ That was used, due to how many natural weapons this druid is likely to use, and how much variety. Cryohydra and all...

And the Bite of spells were used, see the typical adventuring day spell list in an earlier spoiler.

And like I said, this was for a 'no magic items' Druid.

[Gavinfoxx]

Putting on an actual breastplate armor takes 4 minutes (2 minutes assisted) So..the fight would probably be over in that time.

I want to address this in particular. You don't wild shape DURING combat, you wild shape before.

By level 8, you are in Wild Shape form 24/7. There are magic items that you can use to communicate while in Wild Shape, if it matters. One of them is in the DMG, a good one is in the MIC.

There are also several wild shape forms that are explicitly capable of speech; this character is generally in one of these forms (in this case, the dragon form, you know, the one with 38 ac with all the buffs?) when not expecting a fight. And this character was designed to not have any magical items whatsoever; if you add magic items, things get MORE badass.

[Pickford]

Wouldn't that (permanancied magic fang) be at the mercy of say, arrows of dispelling?

edit:

I want to address this in particular. You don't wild shape DURING combat, you wild shape before.

By level 8, you are in Wild Shape form 24/7. There are magic items that you can use to communicate while in Wild Shape, if it matters. One of them is in the DMG, a good one is in the MIC.

There are also several wild shape forms that are explicitly capable of speech; this character is generally in one of these forms (in this case, the dragon form) when not expecting a fight.

Thus the Druid must re-apply their armor 3 times a day (items worn fall off when wild shape ends). An interesting, if unusual, ritual. Wild Shape is a single shape, not shapechange so if the druid encounters anything they can't be in dragon-form for they're kind of limited that way.

And frankly the celestial choices are questionable given that the base is an animal the druid has seen or could reasonable know of (and exalted wild shape doesn't alter this). Unless this particular druid has been planeshopping (possible, but not a default thing), this is stretching it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wouldn't that be at the mercy of say, arrows of dispelling?

...Yes? So? So is most of the fighter's capability (ie, from items)? Also, the Druid has a high wis and has been bumping his wis at every possible point, and has a high caster level, and is layering several spell buffs -- many that often do roughly the same thing, in case one is dispelled -- simultaneously?

"Oh my gosh, I shouldn't use buffs, because they can be dispelled in a very rare circumstance!"

The OP asked how the Druid could be better than the fighter at doing the fighter's job. With the Druid, being Wild Shaped all the time, the Animal Companion, the Wild Cohort, the Rebuked Animal, and a huge list of buffs, they are great at it!

Also, the animal companion and the wild cohort can't be dispelled. And I think the Rebuke can't either, but don't quote me on that. The initial question was 'how can a Druid be better at doing the fighter's job than the fighter', and I believe I have answered that question superbly... even without items.

You seem to be hostile to using lots of buffs on a primary caster so they can melee. Why?

[Gavinfoxx]

Thus the Druid must re-apply their armor 3 times a day (items worn fall off when wild shape ends). An interesting, if unusual, ritual.

And frankly the celestial choices are questionable given that the base is an animal the druid has seen or could reasonable know of (and exalted wild shape doesn't alter this).

Okay... no, you just use Wild Shape about a minute or two before it ends so you are extending the duration of the shapechange.

And, okay...

1.) You can take 10 on knowledge checks
2.) Collector of Stories is a thing, that gives you +5 there. Also, Masterwork tools are another thing, and they stack (competence and circumstance)
3.) The DC to know about an animal or celestial creature or whatever is 10+hd of the creature.
4.) Just take a few rank or two of Knowledge Religion, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge The Planes as necessary to be able to make the DC of the creature, with Collector of Stories, with Take 10, by the time you can wild shape into a creature of that many hit dice.

[Pickford]

...Yes? So? So is most of the fighter's capability (ie, from items)? Also, the Druid has a high wis and has been bumping his wis at every possible point, and has a high caster level, and is layering several spell buffs -- many that often do roughly the same thing, in case one is dispelled -- simultaneously?

"Oh my gosh, I shouldn't use buffs, because they can be dispelled in a very rare circumstance!"

The OP asked how the Druid could be better than the fighter at doing the fighter's job. With the Druid, being Wild Shaped all the time, the Animal Companion, the Wild Cohort, the Rebuked Animal, and a huge list of buffs, they are great at it!

Also, the animal companion and the wild cohort can't be dispelled. And I think the Rebuke can't either, but don't quote me on that.

You seem to be hostile to using lots of buffs on a primary caster so they can melee. Why?

No...all I meant was it's relatively easy to undo any magic buffing done ahead of time. And if these characters exist in magic thick worlds (plausible assumption) it would make sense for fighters to be stocked up with those items. I can't think of a good reason why a fighter wouldn't want anti-magical weaponry. A similar quandary would not impact the Fighter's ability to ...fight as most of the fighting ability is innate, not from buffs that both classes can access.

Dispelling weaponry is inexpensive and ought to be as prevalent (if not more so) than the high end items/spells. That it may not be is a blind-spot for DMs, but logically is not for the game.

edit:

Okay... no, you just use Wild Shape about a minute or two before it ends so you are extending the duration of the shapechange.

And, okay...

1.) You can take 10 on knowledge checks
2.) Collector of Stories is a thing, that gives you +5 there. Also, Masterwork tools are another thing, and they stack.
3.) The DC to know about an animal or celestial creature or whatever is 10+hd of the creature.
4.) Just take a few rank or two of Knowledge Religion, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge The Planes as necessary to be able to make the DC of the creature, with Collector of Stories, with Take 10, by the time you can wild shape into a creature of that many hit dice.

Spells don't work like that. The next use of wild-shape would subsume the currently worn armor.

Points 1-4 seems designed to specifically make this build work which undermines the idea this is going to be anything but a one in a million build chance. (actually less than that given the percentage of the population that might be a druid)

[Gavinfoxx]

If you undo magic buffing (which is NOT a sure thing, most of the dispelling weaponry only works on low caster level stuff), you STILL have to worry about:

1.) Angry Summoned Creatures
2.) Angry Wild Shaped druid
3.) Angry Animal Companion
4.) Angry Wild Cohort.
5.) Angry Rebuked Animal

She is still better than a Fighter at being a Fighter!

Also, buffs are done on multiple creatures, which can spread out!

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, if the Fighter gets magic gear, the Druid gets magic gear. In this case, the Druid is foregoing magic gear. Perhaps the Fighter should do the same for an apples to apples, hmmm? So I'd basically have to add L18 WBL worth of gear to this druid, making her EVEN MORE badass, if Janerris is going up against a level 18 fighter?

[Gavinfoxx]

No, points 1-4 are the actual rules of D&D 3.5e...

And why are we talking about a 'one in a million build chance'??

This is a build for a player character, with a single cohesive theme:

A Druid that focuses on exotic and varied forms for Wild Shape, Animal Companions, having multiple Animal Companion-like creatures, and kicking ass in melee with buffs to Wild Shape and animal companions, while downplaying Summoning, for the most part. The question was, "Can Druid outFighter Fighter?"

[Pickford]

Also, if the Fighter gets magic gear, the Druid gets magic gear. In this case, the Druid is foregoing magic gear. Perhaps the Fighter should do the same for an apples to apples, hmmm? So I'd basically have to add L18 WBL worth of gear to this druid, making him EVEN MORE badass, if Janerris is going up against a level 18 fighter?

This druid is also picking up a great deal of stretch feats (ex: Exalted feats)...if that's the case, why would the fighter not just pick up vow of poverty and use a sling/quarterstaff? Sure it cuts the damage potential (slightly), but the fighter still gains more benefit.

Also this was level 16, not 18. At 18 the fighter gets weapon supremacy and could, hypothetically, wield a greatsword or greatbow in a grapple.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, this Druid wasn't exactly made for this particular thread, but I already, in this thread, suggested methods to de-level her and maybe change some things around to make her level 16. Of course, you would have to add level 16 wealth by level, which would change things. This is a document from an earlier game, that is roughly close to what was needed as a proof of concept to answer the original question of the OP.

As far as the Fighter... go ahead, take all that stuff. Take vow of poverty or weapon mastery. Be my guest. Why would you think that such a fighter would be better at melee than this Druid? You DID look at the stats for this character turning into a Twelve Headed Cryohydra, both buffed and unbuffed stats, right? Right? And the question has always been, 'can druid outmelee fighter, given certain restrictions?' That build is, in part, a 'proof', in the mathematical sense, to answer to that question. It doesn't MATTER how 'rare' the build is, the question is 'can Druid do this?' ie, 'Is it possible for Druid to do this?' One of the options was 'all wotc sources open' after all, and I stayed within that constraint. So in PvP or PvM, or just comparing numbers, the answer to that earlier question, is a resounding YES!

[Gavinfoxx]

Just to clarify, you are talking about Dispelling and Greater Dispelling from Magic Item Compendium, right? vs a level 16 Druid, that is caster level 16, who has Wisdom of 22, without items or Owl's Wisdom at the beginning of the day? Correct? Who can soften the fighter up with summons, or rebuked animals, or wild cohort, or whatever?

[dascarletm]

Eh, I guess. It feels different than tucker's kobolds though. We're talking about a high level druid here. They have flight, and a lot of it. I might be missing something, but even sorcerer mindflayers can do very little to make a group of groundbound enemies into flying threats. I'm not saying that these things are zero level threats to a 16th level druid, I'm just saying exactly that, in exactly those words, but maybe in a nice way. Terrain doesn't mean much to flight.


True, perhaps the dragon fight should be outdoors and that one in a cavern. Make the goblins use ranged attacks and aid another to slowly eat away at their HP, unless they spend turns taking them out.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, Pickford, the question isn't:

"Given everything stacked against the Druid (no magic items for the Druid, Druid is limited to 'likely' feats and a generic, not heavily optimized build, the Fighter has magic items, especially magic items custom-chosen to fight this particular Druid, the Fighter is allowed to use rarer, high-optimization options and tactics, the Fighter has no limit in the price of expendables they are allowed to use, and situations that specifically favor the fighter and don't favor the druid, in as many tests like that as possible, can a Druid outFighter a Fighter?"

The question is,

"Given all books open, can a Druid outFighter a Fighter?"

Now, Pickford, if you want to put forward a particular set of constraints and tests, and describe how one character could win where another character wouldn't, and put this forth ahead of time so we can both agree on objective tests... I would be glad to make a Druid within those constraints. But don't move the goalposts to support your view!

[dascarletm]

The question is,

"Given all books open, can a Druid outFighter a Fighter?"

Now, Pickford, if you want to put forward a particular set of constraints and tests, and describe how one character could win where another character wouldn't, I would be glad to make a Druid within those constraints. But don't move the goalposts to support your view!

First, what does it mean to be a fighter? *Insert Philosoraptor*

Taking Damage?
Dealing Damage?
Both?
Something else?

If to be a fighter means keeping enemies busy while the rest of the party deals with the goals of an encounter, then we should have 3 (since 3 is the magic number), or more, varied encounters.

You could even put in 3 target-dummies that represent the party members, and see how well everything fairs after the combat is concluded.

[eggynack]

Wait, I don't want to reply to a specific thing here, cause there's a lot of them, but how exactly can a fighter with a bow be a threat to a druid with book access? Can't he just be a dire tortoise, which is a generally advisable form to take at 16th level, and cast wind wall? What can the bow fighter do against that? Also, can we please stop using these crazy damage ranges? It's just not a good way to calculate damage in a theoretical arena setting in which you want to know who wins a greater percentage of the time. Basically, we could talk all day about how high the druid's AC can get (really really high. Between greater luminous armor and other things, 17 is understating things by a wide margin. At 16, I can't imagine a druid not using that spell all the time.) but it wouldn't matter because a high level druid is like a high level wizard. He can just do things, and those things sometimes invalidate everything about a fighter.

[eggynack]

First, what does it mean to be a fighter? *Insert Philosoraptor*

Taking Damage?
Dealing Damage?
Both?
Something else?

If to be a fighter means keeping enemies busy while the rest of the party deals with the goals of an encounter, then we should have 3 (since 3 is the magic number), or more, varied encounters.

You could even put in 3 target-dummies that represent the party members, and see how well everything fairs after the combat is concluded.
I think that druids tend to be spectacularly good at this. A bear is perfectly competent at keeping enemies busy while the party (also the druid) deals with the goals of the encounter. It also only takes one round to summon a creature and compound the level of distraction. The fact that the druid is likely the single best grappler in the game only compounds the extent to which they're good at meat shielding.

[dascarletm]

I think that druids tend to be spectacularly good at this. A bear is perfectly competent at keeping enemies busy while the party (also the druid) deals with the goals of the encounter. It also only takes one round to summon a creature and compound the level of distraction. The fact that the druid is likely the single best grappler in the game only compounds the extent to which they're good at meat shielding.

I totally agree. I'm pretty sure a druid will in general be better than a fighter in this role, mechanically.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would say it as 'providing significant, clear, melee threat and damage sponge capability, which level appropriate enemies will consider a clear and present danger'.

[dascarletm]

I would say it as 'providing significant, clear, melee threat and damage sponge capability, which enemies will consider a clear and present danger'.

Though I still stand for enemy targeting variables to be too inconsistent to be really used, I'll keep it to just that statement.:smallwink:

What about the ranged fighter archetype?

[eggynack]

It's also notable that in an arena setting, in which initiative is often the deciding factor of a battle at not-16 levels, druids tend to win the initiative war. Primal instinct is a 24 hour +5 on initiative, and that's quite a bit right there. If you really want to be defensive, you're probably taking on a high dex form of some kind. I tend to like the desmodu hunting bat, which has 60 ft good flight, an AC of 20 before greater luminous armor, and perhaps most importantly, a dexterity of 24. Altogether, that comes out to a +12 to initiative that you can get access to all day pretty early on. It's not even a major consumer of resources, and it's a great form to use enhance wildshape on. 120 ft blindsight for hours per level is really really good. It's one of the better vision modes in the game in general. Leaving that aside, any druid that wants to can usually act first against a fighter, and probably has pretty high AC. Other people can probably come up with other wildshape forms and other initiative boosters too, particularly when you get up there in levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

Primal Instinct?

*checks*

Huh, Dragon Magic. I forgot one, I guess.

[eggynack]

Though I still stand for enemy targeting variables to be too inconsistent to be really used, I'll keep it to just that statement.:smallwink:

What about the ranged fighter archetype?
I don't even really know what the ranged fighter archetype really means, like in a role kind of way. Is the druid just trying to maximize damage over a distance? That's really all that the fighter would be bringing to the table in that case. Splinterbolt is a pretty good spell, as are flame strike and call lightning. Really, by that point, you actually can be a lightning bird in order to directly fill the fighter's role.

Primal Instinct?

*checks*

Huh, Dragon Magic. I forgot one, I guess.
Yeah, that spell is crazy as all hell. The other ones are generally pretty mediocre, but it's sometimes worth it to pick up primal hunter, heart of x style, for cheap uncanny dodge. You also get some skill bonuses and stuff, but that's largely pointless. I can't see either of the other two being worth it at all. Low light vision isn't worth a 4th level slot when you can pick up 120 foot blindsight at the same level, and +5 reflex saves and +10 to all speeds is just not worth it at all at 6th level.

[Talya]

Second of all, druidic power doesn't rely on particular feats or magic items. It relies on natural spell, but that's more of a feat tax than a particular feat.

I object to this comment.

Natural Spell is a good feat that any optimized druid should take, sure. But if you play a game where natural spell is banned, it really doesn't make as much difference as you think.

I'm currently playing a 7th level druid (with vow of poverty, no less, just to make her a bit weaker) in a campaign in which natural spell has been banned. The campaign has been running about a year. The party so far has been mostly Cleric/Prestige Paladin, Wizard, Rogue and myself, a druid. (We had a swordsage who quit, and recently had a Mystic Ranger skirmisher, dragonborn fighter, and bard join us, too.) The only one who can regularly be as useful as my druid is the Wizard, although he has to work a lot harder at it.

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, that spell is crazy as all hell. The other ones are generally pretty mediocre, but it's sometimes worth it to pick up primal hunter, heart of x style, for cheap uncanny dodge. You also get some skill bonuses and stuff, but that's largely pointless. I can't see either of the other two being worth it at all. Low light vision isn't worth a 4th level slot when you can pick up 120 foot blindsight at the same level, and +5 reflex saves and +10 to all speeds is just not worth it at all at 6th level.

By 16th level, I think it is worth it to have all of them up (you aren't going to need all those spell slots anyway, and they provide a touch of Dispel Magic protection). Improved Uncanny Dodge has saved me before. It is unlikely to make a difference in these challenges, but if you have a creative DM who likes to add levels to creatures (like mine does) that all-day sneak attack defense helps a lot.

[eggynack]

I object to this comment.

Natural Spell is a good feat that any optimized druid should take, sure. But if you play a game where natural spell is banned, it really doesn't make as much difference as you think.

I'm currently playing a 7th level druid (with vow of poverty, no less, just to make her a bit weaker) in a campaign in which natural spell has been banned. The campaign has been running about a year. The party so far has been mostly Cleric/Prestige Paladin, Wizard, Rogue and myself, a druid. (We had a swordsage who quit, and recently had a Mystic Ranger skirmisher, dragonborn fighter, and bard join us, too.) The only one who can regularly be as useful as my druid is the Wizard, although he has to work a lot harder at it.
I suppose that it is indeed true that a druid without natural spell is still a primary caster with a fighter friend who can still sometimes become a bear. I was mostly pointing out that having natural spell is about as far as a druid can get from having a specific build, so it's fair to assume that any build that we create would involve it. I guess that druidic power relies only on being a druid, though I think that druids still gain a ridiculous amount from the feat. The fact that it supercharges druids, but it isn't a necessary component to a druid, is pretty crazy.

[Gavinfoxx]

Improved Uncanny Dodge has saved me before. It is unlikely to make a difference in these challenges, but if you have a creative DM who likes to add levels to creatures (like mine does) that all-day sneak attack defense helps a lot.

I do like using the Heart spells to be immune to all sneak attacks. Though another line of defense, to get improved uncanny dodge, is of course useful.

[eggynack]

By 16th level, I think it is worth it to have all of them up (you aren't going to need all those spell slots anyway, and they provide a touch of Dispel Magic protection). Improved Uncanny Dodge has saved me before. It is unlikely to make a difference in these challenges, but if you have a creative DM who likes to add levels to creatures (like mine does) that all-day sneak attack defense helps a lot.
Eh, hours per level is about as good as all day by level 16. I'd much rather just stick the four heart of x spells onto the druid than use the four primal spells. You get perfect immunity to sneak attacks, the spell level tops out at level 5 rather than 6, and I think that the secondary effects are generally better. It would probably still be worth it to use primal instincts for the initiative boost, though dire tortoise might partially obviate that requirement.

[TuggyNE]

Hmm, I'm curious: what is the CL on (Greater) Dispelling weapons?

[CaladanMoonblad]

{Scrubbed}

[Scow2]

Not saying the druid wouldn't completely curbstomp the fighter... but how does a Druid manage to summon monsters while flying (Even with Natural Spell). Is it possible to take full-round actions while flying without falling (Druids don't qualify for Hover)?

Also - if the fighter is within closing distance of the druid at battle-start, how does the Druid get animals between them? Even if he goes first, it still takes one full round to get the critters on the field, leaving the fighter that round to get in the Druid's face, possibly around the animal companion (At the cost of an AoO).

[Carth]

So long as the terrain is exactly the same (randomized cover determined once) between tests, terrain as a variable is controlled (because it is the same between all class matchups). Why does everyone forget that martial characters have ranged weapons? I'm seeing a lot of 1 dimensional strawmen in place of fighters in this thread.


You can factor in ranged attacks if you want, the terrain still favors casters. I'm not sure why you mentioned that. If you've posted in greater detail the parameters of your experiment somewhere else in this thread, I missed it. Please repost it or link to it.

[Snowbluff]

Not saying the druid wouldn't completely curbstomp the fighter... but how does a Druid manage to summon monsters while flying (Even with Natural Spell). Is it possible to take full-round actions while flying without falling (Druids don't qualify for Hover)?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but you can only fall so far.

Also, if you have Improve Wildshape you get the Ex of your shape. Feats are usually Ex, right? Find a suitable creature with Hover.

[Gavinfoxx]

You know casting defensively, and auto-succeeding on your Concentration check, is a thing?

Also, past a certain level of maneuverability, you don't need Hover to Hover.

[eggynack]

@ CaladanMoonblad: I could address all of your points on an individual level, but I don't see the point. The main idea here, is that your testing apparatus makes no sense. Characters aren't randomized, and they're not based on NPC's. Characters are things that we build, and pit against each other. Further, my claim is that any reasonable fight involving a druid should have buff rounds, because he could reasonably be expected to see the fighter coming from outside of their charge range. If you don't want to account for that, then that's what my claim was. It's evident that this is not the definition of a strawman at all. If you think that the druid shouldn't have buff rounds for some reason, then you're going to need to prove that they shouldn't access them. Druids have listen as a class skill, and often have access to scent through an animal companion.

I also don't see why we'd use standard arrays for stats, when no games actually use that in general. The animal companions have an animal companion no matter what, and denying them access to an animal companion makes no sense. The animal companion is part of what allows a druid to emulate a fighter in the first place, so disregarding it makes no sense. If spells are being picked, then I'm pretty sure that the druid guys have a right to pick those spells, just as you'd have the right to build your fighter any way you want. There's not that much deviation between spell lists that randomization would be necessary. Anyway, the point is that you're generally controlling for the wrong things. If you want to run tests, then a core version of that would likely involve the standard 25 point buy, druids and fighters that are build to the specifications of the person building them, and animal companions.

@ Scow: you get hover at good maneuverability. At the very least, bats get access to that, so it's a strategy which can work. There's other creatures with that kind of maneuverability, though I'd rather not construct a list right now.

Edit: Also, when you talk about the standard array, are you talking about 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10? If so, then a riding dog seems ridiculously good. Like, he's now probably better than the fighter in every conceivable way. If you're talking about the elite array, then the HP comparison is as I said. I can't see any situation where the fighter would actually have 25% more HP than the druid. You may enlighten me on this, if you wish.

[Snails]

This all basically illustrates that D&D is essentially a cooperative game. Absolutely no thought was put into balancing the player classes for player v player, and the game just implodes when high tier characters take on lower tier ones, all op being equal.

Right. The question should not be "How does the Fighter fare in a grudge match with a Druid?" but "How often do situations come up during adventures where the Fighter is as useful or more useful to the party than a Druid would likely be?"

When it comes to kicking in doors, where the violence is up close and brutally quick, the Fighter's full iterative attack earns respect.

It is probably usually possible to adventure with Large companions, but Huge is usually not going to work out. So this optimal stacks for the Druid AC are not very realistic.

If it were really all about Tiers, then Four Wizards would make a fine adventuring party, yes? No. Without any meatshields, they would keep throwing in the towel at 9:05 am, and the BBEG would win.

[Arundel]

If it were really all about Tiers, then Four Wizards would make a fine adventuring party, yes? No. Without any meatshields, they would keep throwing in the towel at 9:05 am, and the BBEG would win.

Fun Fact: There was a game run on these forums a while back where all four party members were wizards. It went remarkably well for a quite a while until RL considerations ended it, as I recall. Basically not at all what one would think happens to a party of all arcane casters.

Fun Fact 2: A cleric or druid would be far far superior meat shields.

[angry_bear]

Though I still stand for enemy targeting variables to be too inconsistent to be really used, I'll keep it to just that statement.:smallwink:

What about the ranged fighter archetype?

Warp Wood, level 2 Druid spell that leaves your primary weapon worthless. Pretty sure that magic items don't even get a save against it.

[eggynack]

Right. The question should not be "How does the Fighter fare in a grudge match with a Druid?" but "How often do situations come up during adventures where the Fighter is as useful or more useful to the party than a Druid would likely be?"

When it comes to kicking in doors, where the violence is up close and brutally quick, the Fighter's full iterative attack earns respect.

It is probably usually possible to adventure with Large companions, but Huge is usually not going to work out. So this optimal stacks for the Druid AC are not very realistic.

If it were really all about Tiers, then Four Wizards would make a fine adventuring party, yes? No. Without any meatshields, they would keep throwing in the towel at 9:05 am, and the BBEG would win.
This seems fairly inaccurate on both counts. Both the all wizard and the all druid party seem perfectly viable. The former is viable because you can get a ridiculous total level of spell slots. They can wipe out any given fight pretty trivially, and they can do that pretty far into the day. Four encounters aren't that hard at a sufficient level. The druid party is viable because druids are crazy. If you really have a problem with huge companions in your game, it only takes 24 hours to switch them out with a large, medium, or even small one. Moreover, at the levels where large and huge animals become optimal, you get access to wildshape which makes you a perfectly good fighter in your own right. In particular you get a brown bear at 7th, which is large, and past that you get large wildshape. They also get the whole having infinite slots thing that wizards do.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Keep it civil in here please.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Kay, we'll try. I think.

There are 3 main fronts on this. 1v1 Duel, contribution to party, and Druid Outfightering Fighter. 1v1 Duel seems to have been milked quite a bit, so I'm gonna look at something else.

Fighter has Intimidate. He has Strength, so he can be the packhorse. In combat, he's the pool of hp that stands in front, doing often lots of damage to one target (other melees).
Druid has Survival Abilities and utility with wilderness spells. In combat, they can easily summon huge amounts of hp pools, of which he can mass buff to become damaging. He can do lots of ranged damage to multiple targets, along with melee damage, and also adds in debuffing and battlefield control.

As for Outfightering Fighter, a Druid comes with a chassis almost as good as the Fighter, with Good Will and Fort saves along with decent hp and lots of SAD. Fighters need max Strength, decent Dex, good Con, and decent Wis. Druids need 2 things. BAB a problems? The cats can get many more natural attacks than most fighters most levels. He can increase his HP to crazy amounts using bite of x or in core, bear's endurance and others. His damage output will be about the same without using venomfire or girallon's blessing. His long buffs (Magic Fang) last quite a while, and he can also get another .5 fighter with him.

On the 4 wizards part, here's how it would go.

Wizard 1: Conjuration. Battlefield control.
Wizard 2: Transmutation. Debuffer.
Wizard 3: Malconvoker or Summoning/Binding or Necromancy Expert with Pale Master. Bags of HP.
Wizard 4: Abjuration/Illusion. Buffs and defenses.

That's one setup.

[eggynack]

Why do fighters need wisdom for stuff? Seems kinda like a dump stat to me. Also, druids can literally packhorse, by having their animal companion be a horse. They also have reasonable diplomacy abilities. I don't see how fighters have any out of combat by comparison.

Edit: I think a big question here, is how does a level one fighter compare to a riding dog? Depending on the answer, the druid might get more of an edge than .5 fighters at certain levels. Similarly, there're fleshrakers at 4, and bear like creatures at 7.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

True... I'm just saying, a fighter at higher levels has many more feats that they could take. Low levels, they are equal to 1.5 fighters.
Disclaimers: Estimations not accurate.

And I'm trying to find, at all, any out of combat ability of Fighters.

And Fleshrakers are plain cheesy. :smallbiggrin: *cough* my name *cough*.

[TuggyNE]

Edit: Also, when you talk about the standard array, are you talking about 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10? If so, then a riding dog seems ridiculously good. Like, he's now probably better than the fighter in every conceivable way. If you're talking about the elite array, then the HP comparison is as I said.

There's actually three arrays; there's the standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10), the nonelite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), and the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). None of these are specifically designed for PC use; instead, they're designed for stock monsters, monsters with NPC classes, and monsters with PC classes, respectively. However, since the elite array is the equivalent of 25-point buy, it can be used for PCs in quite low-powered campaigns.

[eggynack]

I'm just saying that it's a bad arena to put a fighter into in general. When you have fighters and druids both trying to stab something, the fighter is gonna at least have some kind of answer. When they both need to do anything outside of combat, it feels like there's no argument that supports the fighter's superiority, even from the most ardent pro-fighter guys. It's not a contest they're even designed to win. The animal companion vs. fighter thing tends to be a tricky thing in general. I mean, once you get to level two I think the fighter starts surpassing the dog by a decent margin, before the dog advances at three. It goes back and forth a lot. I dunno what the exact range of fighter values the AC has either.

[eggynack]

There's actually three arrays; there's the standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10), the nonelite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), and the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). None of these are specifically designed for PC use; instead, they're designed for stock monsters, monsters with NPC classes, and monsters with PC classes, respectively. However, since the elite array is the equivalent of 25-point buy, it can be used for PCs in quite low-powered campaigns.
Fancy. I think my logic generically holds in all three cases though. In the standard array scenario, the riding dog is going to dominate by a wide margin. He's just sitting on higher stats. In the elite array, the druid has a con high enough to make the hit die relatively pointless, and the fighter might want to make his secondary stat dex instead of con. In the non-elite array, the druid gets a little from column A, and a little from column B. The riding dog is probably going to dominate a non-elite arrayed fighter, and the fighter is going to have less of an HP edge than if the HP were determined purely through HD. The fighter never has 25% more HP than the druid in any of the cases either.

[CaladanMoonblad]

@ CaladanMoonblad: I could address all of your points on an individual level, but I don't see the point. The main idea here, is that your testing apparatus makes no sense.


I will be courteous enough (yet again) to meet all your points, mostly by repeating myself from previous posts. The testing apparatus (initially described on page 1, post 19) was meant to isolate the variable of class while keeping all other things equal (ie, other variables not related to class). By using Core only (the original design of the primary classes in game) we measured the class, and not the quiltwork of options that become available with additional splat books. More about this below.



Characters aren't randomized, and they're not based on NPC's.


This a true statement... but 3.5 classes are standardized. There are not 3 variations of a Druid's BAB, or Save progression, or SQ order, or Spells per Day, etc. If the question is about class, then use class. If the question is about "who can make the best optimization" then... that's not a class vs class question but an optimization contest... something which was challenged of me previously, of which I explained why it is so much a social display and something I am not interested in doing. My argument relates to the interaction of classes, and not participating in a contest of "my optimization skills are better than yours." This is another example of what I
meant by "making things personal."



Characters are things that we build, and pit against each other. Further, my claim is that any reasonable fight involving a druid should have buff rounds, because he could reasonably be expected to see the fighter coming from outside of their charge range. If you don't want to account for that, then that's what my claim was. It's evident that this is not the definition of a strawman at all. If you think that the druid shouldn't have buff rounds for some reason, then you're going to need to prove that they shouldn't access them. Druids have listen as a class skill, and often have access to scent through an animal companion.


I already explained my reasoning for why my group's experiment gave no one buff rounds and started every fight on the map where they did (50 ft apart, 50 ft from every edge of the map). But here it is again; No class was favored in this regard; everyone started at the same point, in the same round, "seeing each other for the first time." The starting conditions were agreed to prior to any character build as a set of base parameters for the experiment. Everyone started on the same foot... so what precisely is your problem with equalizing the situation? This is what is meant by the phrase "all things being equal."

Here's the thing; Experiments are meant to isolate variables. By definition, experiments lose validity to increase control; because we extricate the action from the myriad other variables that normally take place, we can isolate the variables we want to study and observe the interaction. By controlling for extraneous factors (such as player character build skill, different stat arrays, different tastes in attribute tiers, different terrains, different levels of splatbook, etc.) we can study class A and class B. Then you run the experiment and see what you get.



I also don't see why we'd use standard arrays for stats, when no games actually use that in general. The animal companions have an animal companion no matter what, and denying them access to an animal companion makes no sense.


My error, I should have typed "elite array" using a standard 25 point build (the same as the DMG tables). We did no such thing for the animal companion, I never typed such a thing. I reported that it wasn't really an issue to the combat that my group witnessed until mid-high levels (13+,due to Dire Bear). The druid build came with a wolf companion at levels 1 and 6. It didn't prove much of an impediment in our session (btw, animal BAB progression is 3/4 HD, with base 1d8 HD, so... not equal to a Fighter as multiple people keep claiming).



The animal companion is part of what allows a druid to emulate a fighter in the first place, so disregarding it makes no sense. If spells are being picked, then I'm pretty sure that the druid guys have a right to pick those spells, just as you'd have the right to build your fighter any way you want. There's not that much deviation between spell lists that randomization would be necessary. Anyway, the point is that you're generally controlling for the wrong things. If you want to run tests, then a core version of that would likely involve the standard 25 point buy, druids and fighters that are build to the specifications of the person building them, and animal companions.


Sigh. Excuse me for mistyping "standard" for what I meant was "elite." For the third or fourth time, we used the standard DMG stats to control for stat placement and keep attribute point pool equal. It was a 25 point build. We were interested in the class, not the placement of stats. We accepted the game system's suggestion for stat priority in the interest of fairness.

As for spells, I already explained why spells were not randomized (as an initial condition) and then randomized (at higher levels) to reflect the various expectations of a caster build for what may happen in the coming day during spell preparation. The randomization was done only see how important spell preparation was to the class. My druid player was curious to try the fight with randomized spells. My druid player usually has 3 or 4 different lists based on what they reasonably expect in the coming day.



Edit: Also, when you talk about the standard array, are you talking about 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10? If so, then a riding dog seems ridiculously good. Like, he's now probably better than the fighter in every conceivable way. If you're talking about the elite array, then the HP comparison is as I said. I can't see any situation where the fighter would actually have 25% more HP than the druid. You may enlighten me on this, if you wish.

For the third or fourth time, please see the DMG page 116 and 117. Compare the hp totals by using (Druid HP) divided by (Fighter HP). Subtract that number from 1 to get a percentage difference. In the scrubbed post above, I had acknowledged the base class diff is ~10%. The DMG places Con as a 2nd tier attribute for Fighters, and 3rd tier attribute for Druids; this is where the 25% difference comes in for our experiment... the context of which I referenced.


You can factor in ranged attacks if you want, the terrain still favors casters. I'm not sure why you mentioned that. If you've posted in greater detail the parameters of your experiment somewhere else in this thread, I missed it. Please repost it or link to it.

page 1, post #19. Change "standard" to "elite." I do mention a standard 25 point buy. Ranged attacks proved detrimental to casters at levels 1 and 6.

I mentioned it because the terrain was a factor. I do not dispute that cover helps anyone fearing a ranged attack (be it spell or otherwise). I report it because it was part of the base parameter.


Sheriff: Keep it civil in here please.

I am exasperated by the repeated misrepresentation of my posts by others in this thread. I say the sky is blue, I am told I am wrong for saying the sky is green. It is maddening. I was unaware of "Tell a poster that they clearly didn't read what you or others wrote upthread." I apologize to all for this infraction of the Forum Rules.

[TuggyNE]

This a true statement... but 3.5 classes are standardized. There are not 3 variations of a Druid's BAB, or Save progression, or SQ order, or Spells per Day, etc. If the question is about class, then use class. If the question is about "who can make the best optimization" then... that's not a class vs class question but an optimization contest... something which was challenged of me previously, of which I explained why it is so much a social display and something I am not interested in doing. My argument relates to the interaction of classes, and not participating in a contest of "my optimization skills are better than yours." This is another example of what I
meant by "making things personal."

This is kind of missing the point, though; different classes reasonably have different baseline optimization (for the most basic example: running a barbarian vs wizard comparison using exactly the same stats for each is clearly bogus), so denying that on the basis that it's optimization is going to give you bizarre results. Whether those results favor one class or another isn't the point; the point is that those don't represent anything like actual game conditions.

The idea isn't particularly to make it about "who can optimize better"; if anything, rather the reverse: who can most convincingly show that a modicum of optimization applied to a given class produces disproportionately good results — in short, which class optimizes better at low, medium, and high degrees of effort, and at various levels.


I already explained my reasoning for why my group's experiment gave no one buff rounds and started every fight on the map where they did (50 ft apart, 50 ft from every edge of the map). But here it is again; No class was favored in this regard; everyone started at the same point, in the same round, "seeing each other for the first time." The starting conditions were agreed to prior to any character build as a set of base parameters for the experiment. Everyone started on the same foot... so what precisely is your problem with equalizing the situation? This is what is meant by the phrase "all things being equal."

Here's the thing; Experiments are meant to isolate variables. By definition, experiments lose validity to increase control; because we extricate the action from the myriad other variables that normally take place, we can isolate the variables we want to study and observe the interaction. By controlling for extraneous factors (such as player character build skill, different stat arrays, different tastes in attribute tiers, different terrains, different levels of splatbook, etc.) we can study class A and class B. Then you run the experiment and see what you get.

That's not a bad idea in principle; in practice, I think you might be cutting out a few too many things that do actually make a significant difference in practice and are not excessively difficult to control. For example, allowing cover for a rogue: a rogue can't always ensure that they'll be fighting near pre-existing cover, but it's fairly common; contrast with all-day buffs for a caster, which can be controlled by the caster (with rare exceptions such as being dispelled or being interrupted before daily preparations are complete).

For that matter, even such a seemingly minor thing as starting distance can have vast differences on outcome; a Fighter may struggle with distances beyond 10-15', a Barbarian might actually prefer 15-80', most Wizards would be fine as far away as they can still see the enemy, and an archer (especially Ranger) would like it if they could start out 1000' away or more. Unless it's an archery Rogue, in which case 35' or 65' are more likely. And so on!


(btw, animal BAB progression is 3/4 HD, with base 1d8 HD, so... not equal to a Fighter as multiple people keep claiming).

I think you mean that animal HD are d8s, right? Because a wolf has 2d8, and therefore has more HP and the same BAB as a Fighter 1. Bonus HD do not scale at full rate, but the wolf does start out a little ahead. :smallwink:


As for spells, I already explained why spells were not randomized (as an initial condition) and then randomized (at higher levels) to reflect the various expectations of a caster build for what may happen in the coming day during spell preparation. The randomization was done only see how important spell preparation was to the class. My druid player was curious to try the fight with randomized spells. My druid player usually has 3 or 4 different lists based on what they reasonably expect in the coming day.

OK, but … why would you ever actually randomize them at all? That just gives you spell selections that no one would ever actually choose except by mistake. What you could do is set up a fairly straightforward spell selection and then mark off which spells are definitely cast, and which spells have been expended randomly during the course of the day. Even that might be flawed, but it's likely to work a lot more sensibly.


The DMG places Con as a 2nd tier attribute for Fighters, and 3rd tier attribute for Druids; this is where the 25% difference comes in for our experiment... the context of which I referenced.

That's interesting, but pretty thoroughly low-op advice. Something to note, though, even if it doesn't necessarily affect too much. (Rather than just saying, "Druids have 25% less HP" with no explanation; raw numbers are inherently untrustworthy.)

[eggynack]

This a true statement... but 3.5 classes are standardized. There are not 3 variations of a Druid's BAB, or Save progression, or SQ order, or Spells per Day, etc. If the question is about class, then use class. If the question is about "who can make the best optimization" then... that's not a class vs class question but an optimization contest... something which was challenged of me previously, of which I explained why it is so much a social display and something I am not interested in doing. My argument relates to the interaction of classes, and not participating in a contest of "my optimization skills are better than yours." This is another example of what I
meant by "making things personal."

This is true, but optimization is still highly important to the argument, in several ways which will come up later. If I'm playing a druid, I'm going to pick spells that will be good. If you're playing a fighter, you're presumably going to pick build options that will be good. If we use the same books, then aren't we balancing things out just fine? If druids have a higher marginal value acquired from optimization, that's a thing which should be highly taken into account.



I already explained my reasoning for why my group's experiment gave no one buff rounds and started every fight on the map where they did (50 ft apart, 50 ft from every edge of the map). But here it is again; No class was favored in this regard; everyone started at the same point, in the same round, "seeing each other for the first time." The starting conditions were agreed to prior to any character build as a set of base parameters for the experiment. Everyone started on the same foot... so what precisely is your problem with equalizing the situation? This is what is meant by the phrase "all things being equal."

And what I'm saying is that you're controlling for variables that you have no right to control for, because they unfairly bias the fight towards the fighter. Here's a quick for instance. It uses non-core books, but that's just because it's easier to do this with non-core books, and uses an example I've already provided. Assume a druid who is permanently wildshaped into a desmodu hunting bat, and further assume that he always has enhanced wildshape up. It's not much of a stretch, as these two things last a ridiculously long amount of time. Now, the druid has access to 120 foot blindsight. How, exactly, are we getting into a situation in which the fight is starting with them 50 feet apart? The fighter is being favored, because the druid isn't being given access to his abilities. Another example is scent. Riding dogs have it, which means that the fighter won't be able to get close to the druid without the druid knowing about it. These are advantages that the druid has over the fighter, which you are taking away with your experiment. Your base parameters don't reflect real gameplay, and therefore it's not much of a valid experiment.



Here's the thing; Experiments are meant to isolate variables. By definition, experiments lose validity to increase control; because we extricate the action from the myriad other variables that normally take place, we can isolate the variables we want to study and observe the interaction. By controlling for extraneous factors (such as player character build skill, different stat arrays, different tastes in attribute tiers, different terrains, different levels of splatbook, etc.) we can study class A and class B. Then you run the experiment and see what you get.

And what I'm saying is that you don't need to control for nearly this many variables. All you need to do is set basic book limitations, and establish a point buy, and set them out further than you've indicated to reflect the druid's ability to locate the fighter before battle. Another way to manage this might be buff rounds. Player build skill is basically automatically controlled for if you have enough guys on it. If you think a build is under what you believe to be its capacity, then you can just suggest something else. It's not that hard.



My error, I should have typed "elite array" using a standard 25 point build (the same as the DMG tables). We did no such thing for the animal companion, I never typed such a thing. I reported that it wasn't really an issue to the combat that my group witnessed until mid-high levels (13+,due to Dire Bear). The druid build came with a wolf companion at levels 1 and 6. It didn't prove much of an impediment in our session (btw, animal BAB progression is 3/4 HD, with base 1d8 HD, so... not equal to a Fighter as multiple people keep claiming).

First of all, you should probably use a riding dog at both levels if you're stuck in core. It's generally just better. Second, the riding dog might have smaller hit dice, but it has two of them at first level which gives him a bit of an edge. The dog also has good dex, and some leather barding can easily put him at higher AC than any first level fighter.



Sigh. Excuse me for mistyping "standard" for what I meant was "elite." For the third or fourth time, we used the standard DMG stats to control for stat placement and keep attribute point pool equal. It was a 25 point build. We were interested in the class, not the placement of stats. We accepted the game system's suggestion for stat priority in the interest of fairness.

I don't really care what the DMG advises. Con is pretty clearly the secondary stat for any druid worth his salt, because it's the only physical stat which doesn't really change in a wildshape. It doesn't really increase fairness to assign stats in a suboptimal manner. It's not even a high-op thing.



As for spells, I already explained why spells were not randomized (as an initial condition) and then randomized (at higher levels) to reflect the various expectations of a caster build for what may happen in the coming day during spell preparation. The randomization was done only see how important spell preparation was to the class. My druid player was curious to try the fight with randomized spells. My druid player usually has 3 or 4 different lists based on what they reasonably expect in the coming day.

I don't see why a druid spell list would change in a negative way in response to a specific situation. I'd figure that they'd have a generic list, and then a few sub-lists in case something specific came up. I'd just usually run that generic list into any given arena fight.

The rest of the stuff is stuff I think I already argued against somewhere else in this post, so I think that's about it. I really don't think that your experiment is an adequate one to truly gauge an arena fight between a fighter and a druid. For one thing, the general assumption is that the characters will have a moderate level of optimization, in keeping with the tier list, rather than a maximum or minimal level. It's a tricky thing to measure, but it's doable if you just place no specific restrictions on a character that's already restricted to a set of books. I generally use the SRD as a guideline, but there are other options out there.

[Pickford]

No, points 1-4 are the actual rules of D&D 3.5e...

And why are we talking about a 'one in a million build chance'??

This is a build for a player character, with a single cohesive theme:

A Druid that focuses on exotic and varied forms for Wild Shape, Animal Companions, having multiple Animal Companion-like creatures, and kicking ass in melee with buffs to Wild Shape and animal companions, while downplaying Summoning, for the most part. The question was, "Can Druid outFighter Fighter?"

Well, by one in a million I mean it's a sui-generis example that has no bearing on your j-average druid.

Also, I didn't pick the restriction on magic items, that was from you. However, the point I was making in discussing wild-shape is that it removes any benefit garnered from said magic items rendering the point moot (insofar as the druid is concerned).

Also also, for whomever mentioned it the fight seriously violates basic dueling rules which require no buffs prior to engagement. Pg. 175 in Complete Arcane. Yes this complicates things for the Druid, but then again so does getting to dictate all the rules of the fight to a spellcaster's obvious advantage.

[Carth]

page 1, post #19. Change "standard" to "elite." I do mention a standard 25 point buy.

Ah, there we go. So, when you did this, how many players participated? How many battles were there?

[eggynack]

Well, by one in a million I mean it's a sui-generis example that has no bearing on your j-average druid.

Also, I didn't pick the restriction on magic items, that was from you. However, the point I was making in discussing wild-shape is that it removes any benefit garnered from said magic items rendering the point moot (insofar as the druid is concerned).

Also also, for whomever mentioned it the fight seriously violates basic dueling rules which require no buffs prior to engagement. Pg. 175 in Complete Arcane. Yes this complicates things for the Druid, but then again so does getting to dictate all the rules of the fight to a spellcaster's obvious advantage.
I didn't know this was a standard duel. I thought these were just two enemies who want to kill each other, which better reflects the actual capabilities of the classes. Additionally, wilding clasps are pretty cheap, especially at that level. The AC you mentioned is basically the bare minimum for a druid, between higher AC forms and luminous/greater luminous armor. We really need to standardize the book access here, or at least set up guidelines between the two types of book access, as per the monk v barbarian v warrior thread. I think that those guidelines, where you have online available battles, and you have everything battles, makes sense. I don't think that a druid can conceivably lose any level 16 fight wherein he has access to everything though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also also, for whomever mentioned it the fight seriously violates basic dueling rules which require no buffs prior to engagement. Pg. 175 in Complete Arcane. Yes this complicates things for the Druid, but then again so does getting to dictate all the rules of the fight to a spellcaster's obvious advantage.

Okay, okay. Let's do this differently then.

A Druid that focuses on having ally characters, with:
Initiate of Nature for a rebuked animal
A solid melee animal companion
Wild Cohort
all of which have barding

The Druid gets one of the rapid wild shape feats. The Druid gets magic armor that lets them keep it while wild shape (beastform armor, wild armor, or just attaching wilding clasps to it), and puts wilding clasps on all of her major magic items, and takes advantage of the rules for combining like-slotted magic items. The Druid prepares some of her summoning spells with quicken spell, to get one off quickly.

Then, the Fighter has to basically be fighting, say, three bears + 1d3 bears, and then the Druid wild shapes (keeping her armor and magic items active) while the fighter is busy, maybe does a quickened buff or two, and also joins the fight.

[Pickford]

Okay, okay. Let's do this differently then.

A Druid that focuses on having ally characters, with:
Initiate of Nature for a rebuked animal
A solid melee animal companion
Wild Cohort
all of which have barding

The Druid gets one of the rapid wild shape feats. The Druid gets magic armor that lets them keep it while wild shape (beastform armor, wild armor, or just attaching wilding clasps to it), and puts wilding clasps on all of her major magic items, and takes advantage of the rules for combining like-slotted magic items. The Druid prepares some of her summoning spells with quicken spell, to get one off quickly.

Then, the Fighter has to basically be fighting, say, three bears + 1d3 bears, and then the Druid wild shapes (keeping her armor and magic items active) while the fighter is busy, maybe does a quickened buff or two, and also joins the fight.

Why couldn't the Fighter get Leadership as well and have his archers volley the druid (and his friends) to death while the pikemen set against a charge and the cavalry does ride-by-attacks?

Also, as Mercenaries can be hired cheap, the Fighter could easily field a fairly large army at level 16 or 18.

Eggy: It's ok. The whole scenario doesn't exactly click (why are they enemies?).

Also you are mistaken. The AC I mentioned was the AC for a druid who wild-shapes into a dire tiger. For your convenience, this can be found in the monster manual.

[eggynack]

Also you are mistaken. The AC I mentioned was the AC for a druid who wild-shapes into a dire tiger. For your convenience, this can be found in the monster manual.
I'm aware. I'm pointing out that the AC is significantly lower than it easily could be in a different form. Desmodu hunting bats, for example, have 20 AC. That was just my first toss too. Legendary eagles have an AC of 25, and those are easily accessible by level 16. They also have +10 initiative, so now the whole thing is up to +15 for reference. Stacking greater luminous armor helps with AC in this case too. What I'm saying is that the druidic AC you mentioned is aberrantly low, and that's without items. Toss a monk's belt with a wilding clasp on, and you get your wisdom mod in AC. You can get much higher than 17.

[TuggyNE]

Why couldn't the Fighter get Leadership as well and have his archers volley the druid (and his friends) to death while the pikemen set against a charge and the cavalry does ride-by-attacks?

Also, as Mercenaries can be hired cheap, the Fighter could easily field a fairly large army at level 16 or 18.

Three main reasons: a) Leadership is not a Fighter class feature, and synergizes with exactly zero Fighter class features or ability scores; b) Druids are ridiculously good at trashing large armies of low-HD types; c) if this is a duel, minions are probably a no-go, especially in large groups like that, but if it's a set-piece battle, the Druid will have all its buffs up and be ready for most anything — neither possibility helps the Fighter especially.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why couldn't the Fighter get Leadership as well and have his archers volley the druid (and his friends) to death while the pikemen set against a charge and the cavalry does ride-by-attacks?

Also, as Mercenaries can be hired cheap, the Fighter could easily field a fairly large army at level 16 or 18.

Eggy: It's ok. The whole scenario doesn't exactly click (why are they enemies?).

Also you are mistaken. The AC I mentioned was the AC for a druid who wild-shapes into a dire tiger. For your convenience, this can be found in the monster manual.

Alright, I will remove Wild Cohort, which isn't class-specific and has nothing to do with Druids in particular, if you'll remove Leadership and hirelings. Deal?

[angry_bear]

Level 1, the Druid is going to win the majority of those encounters. Round 1 he casts entangle on the Fighter. Round 2 he starts dishing out ranged attacks, with granted, a pretty unimpressive sling or some relatively unimpressive ranged spells (For level 1). If the Fighter gets out of the entangled area, then that's when the animal companion (Most likely a riding dog or wolf) starts attacking them. Or multiple animals if the druid burns one of his spells for a summon.

Granted in that scenario, a ranged fighter isn't going to have nearly as much difficulty as a melee one, but a standard fighter is going to need a lot of luck in winning that battle. For a level 1 duel between a druid and a ranged fighter, I'd say the odds are about 50/50 using just core.

Level 2 and up, it's basically the same thing except that from here on out, the druid is casting warp wood on any ranged weapon the fighter was hoping to use to win this. Leaving them essentially unarmed.

[Gavinfoxx]

Leaving them essentially unarmed.

Warp Wood, Repel Wood, Wood Rot...

[dascarletm]

Three main reasons: a) Leadership is not a Fighter class feature, and synergizes with exactly zero Fighter class features or ability scores; b) Druids are ridiculously good at trashing large armies of low-HD types; c) if this is a duel, minions are probably a no-go, especially in large groups like that, but if it's a set-piece battle, the Druid will have all its buffs up and be ready for most anything — neither possibility helps the Fighter especially.

Feats are fighter class features, and while this is not on the list, it's copious amount of feats mean that if anyone can afford it, a fighter can.

[angry_bear]

Warp Wood, Repel Wood, Wood Rot...

All of which take away the fighter's ranged weapons leaving them unable to perform any ranged combat...

[Kane0]

I'm sure its been said already, but why not compare the lvl 16 Animal companion against the fighter first, then the actual druid afterwards? I'm sure he would get the message after nearly being beaten by one of the druids class features (which the fighter does not have any of).

[Gavinfoxx]

Alright! Dire Polar Bear in +1 Mithral Chain Shirt Barding, vs Fighter, Go! Straight up slugmatch! Will anyone run it?

How about same with the Dire Tiger? The Triceratops, doing the Triceratops shuffle? The T-Rex?

[eggynack]

Sounds fair enough. I think it's worthy of note that any kind of strategy that takes a long enough amount of time from the beginning of the battle to kill the animal companion shouldn't be counted. If the fight takes long enough, the druid is going to win without any problems. The fighter is always one turn away from fighting another bear unless he puts on enough pressure.

[Gavinfoxx]

Should we do this both with and without the MIC's Collar of Healing?

[Angelmaker]

Feats are fighter class features, and while this is not on the list, it's copious amount of feats mean that if anyone can afford it, a fighter can.

I disagree strongly. While feats are a class feature of every class, leadership has to be treated seperately for this discussion.

1) leadership is only attainable with the DM's agreement.
2) Leadership has nothing to do with class features, because you're essentially getting an army for free, if you booste your leadership scores enough.

Pickford's example was perfect in showing how useless it would be to take leadership for one or both characters into account.

[TuggyNE]

Feats are fighter class features, and while this is not on the list, it's copious amount of feats mean that if anyone can afford it, a fighter can.

That's not necessarily the case, though, especially compared to a Druid, which only really needs one feat (although others do not go amiss). Basically, a Fighter is not in general so thoroughly endowed with feats that it can simply select random whatevers; each feat selected has a fairly substantial opportunity cost.

[Lans]

Level 1, the Druid is going to win the majority of those encounters. Round 1 he casts entangle on the Fighter. Round 2 he starts dishing out ranged attacks, with granted, a pretty unimpressive sling or some relatively unimpressive ranged spells (For level 1). .
The fighter can still shoot back. Granted he is taking -4 to his ranged attacks, so his attack modifier is going to be -1 unless he was archery based or took brutal throw. Alternatively he can pull out a tower shield and try to bust out.




Level 2 and up, it's basically the same thing except that from here on out, the druid is casting warp wood on any ranged weapon the fighter was hoping to use to win this. Leaving them essentially unarmed
You don't get warp wood till level 3, and bone bows and slings exist. I think.



Fun Fact 2: A cleric or druid would be far far superior meat shields.
Questionable, while a cleric or druid would be better overall, a fighter might be a better meat shield with combat reflexes, and crazy reach that can only be obtained at level one by flaws and selling your soul to devils.



Edit: I think a big question here, is how does a level one fighter compare to a riding dog? Depending on the answer, the druid might get more of an edge than .5 fighters at certain levels. Similarly, there're fleshrakers at 4, and bear like creatures at 7.

If I remember correctly Reach weapon fighter>Riding dog=>THF>S&B Fighter, with racial choices and high point buy being able to bump the fighter up.

Fleshraker was Reach Fighter=>Fleshraker>THF>S&B

I don't think bears were done, and I'm not sure on other resources being used on the druids part


I think you mean that animal HD are d8s, right? Because a wolf has 2d8, and therefore has more HP and the same BAB as a Fighter 1. Bonus HD do not scale at full rate, but the wolf does start out a little ahead.

Wolf has the average roll of 2d8, while a pc fighter has a maximized d10


If it were really all about Tiers, then Four Wizards would make a fine adventuring party, yes? No. Without any meatshields, they would keep throwing in the towel at 9:05 am, and the BBEG would win.

Wizards can get 5 1st level spells at level 1, a fighter feat, and either an animal companion or the ability to just say no to getting hit for 2d6+9*2 from the orc barbarian.

[eggynack]

If I remember correctly Reach weapon fighter>Riding dog=>THF>S&B Fighter, with racial choices and high point buy being able to bump the fighter up.

Fleshraker was Reach Fighter=>Fleshraker>THF>S&B

I don't think bears were done, and I'm not sure on other resources being used on the druids part
This analysis seems, at the very least, pretty close to accurate. Dogs are pretty sweet, but a dedicated tripper build could probably take them. Still. what you ultimately have to do is make a build that can kill a riding dog, and has enough punching power at the end to kill a druid. It's generally not the easiest thing in the world, especially if the druid casts any kind of spell or can plink the fighter during and after the riding dog fight with a sling. Another factor to take into account is higher levels of play. A lot of the builds I've seen that are designed to take on a higher level druid rely upon archery of some kind, which is a really uncommon build type for a fighter. It's basically ok against druids, and terrible against everything else.

[TuggyNE]

You don't get warp wood till level 3, and bone bows and slings exist. I think.

There are bone bows, but I think they're generally dragonbone or something; not cheap.


Questionable, while a cleric or druid would be better overall, a fighter might be a better meat shield with combat reflexes, and crazy reach that can only be obtained at level one by flaws and selling your soul to devils.

Doesn't everyone sell their soul to devils?


If I remember correctly Reach weapon fighter>Riding dog=>THF>S&B Fighter, with racial choices and high point buy being able to bump the fighter up.

Fleshraker was Reach Fighter=>Fleshraker>THF>S&B

Those greater-than-or-equal signs are confusing. Try >= instead?


Wolf has the average roll of 2d8, while a pc fighter has a maximized d10

Hmm, true. However, the extra Con boost (especially if you can rearrange the wolf's stats with one of the NPC stat arrays) per HD makes things even unless the Fighter has 18 Con or better, which is a bit tough to swing at level 1. It's basically a wash though at 1.

[mangosta71]

For a level 1 duel between a druid and a ranged fighter, I'd say the odds are about 50/50 using just core.
Except that every time the fighter takes a shot at the druid he's provoking an AoO from the druid's animal companion...

[eggynack]

Those greater-than-or-equal signs are confusing. Try >= instead?
I think I just have to know. Is gray the new official color for pedantic sub-comments that have nothing to do with the topic? If so, I think I'm going to be using that one all the time. Like, "Look over here, your grammar is wrong, and, "I think that the word here should be sardonic instead of sarcastic. It better reflects your comment's true meaning.

[Carth]

I could get behind that. Perfect color for it, too.

[eggynack]

I know, right? This feels like the kinda thing I might actually end up using in various places. I have arbitrary off-topic pedantic arguments to make all the time. It's all inconspicuous and underhanded. Apart from blue text, which is totally not used to indicate sarcasm, and white text, for hiding comments for reasons that have never been entirely clear to me, I don't think any of these have really caught on.

[TuggyNE]

I think I just have to know. Is gray the new official color for pedantic sub-comments that have nothing to do with the topic? If so, I think I'm going to be using that one all the time. Like, "Look over here, your grammar is wrong, and, "I think that the word here should be sardonic instead of sarcastic. It better reflects your comment's true meaning.

It's in my sig, so yeah, I'm hoping it catches on. :smallwink:

[eggynack]

Ah. I had not noticed that, because it's super tiny. Your puny letters might as well be invisible before my mighty druidic bear size. Still, I think that "pedantic sub-comments that have nothing to do with the topic" sounds cooler than nitpicking. :smallbiggrin:

[Talya]

(Druids don't qualify for Hover)?



Why? The only prerequisite is "Fly speed" and a druid has a very easy time getting that as it is selecting a feat. Druids qualify for other monster feats if they can wildshape into creatures that qualify. Nothing about the prerequisites of such things require that they be "permanent" or "part of the druid's natural form."

[angry_bear]

Except that every time the fighter takes a shot at the druid he's provoking an AoO from the druid's animal companion...

If the Druid doesn't use entangle, then yeah the fighter is taking AoO's from the pet. However, why wouldn't he lock his opponent down if all he sees is a fighter? At early levels, a druid is going to need to use that spell, and use it often if they're in solo combat. It's one of their most important spells since they don't become near invincible for a few more levels. The only downside to Entangle is that it's an area of effect, so sending in the animal companion means your dog or wolf is now trapped by your own spell.

The other option for the druid is to just summon an animal or two; but I don't know a lot of druid players that summon until a little later when they have access to stronger summon choices.

And for an earlier post, my mistake about warp wood. It is only available at level 3. However, bone bows are incredibly uncommon, and what's even more uncommon is a fighter with a sling. Also, I'm not even sure that bone weapons are in core; which this duel is still based around right? Because if splatbooks are available, the level 1 druid's standard combat rotation does change...

[CaladanMoonblad]

Ah, there we go. So, when you did this, how many players participated? How many battles were there?

I had 6 players at the time, and every class was straight up from the DMG tables, with group voted feat selection to get the most generic build possible (to guard against builds that specifically target a single type of opponent- this was the Boy Scout approach, such as "be prepared.") Every base class was pitted against every other class (except itself).

Thus... Bard vs. Wizard, Bard vs. Sorcerer, Bard vs. Barbarian, Bard vs. etc etc etc. No one knew who their opponent was, and there was no change once the build was established (again, by using the DMG tables).



@Eggynack- thanks for your input, but those sorts of questions belong in an intro to experimental design class. Our group followed sound scientific experimental policy (we're all in the sciences). I will no longer be responding to you because I draw the line at the fourth repetition.

Regarding 1st level hypothetical using Entangle tactic. A 1st level Druid (with Wis 15, as per DMG tables) has a save DC 13. A 1st level fighter will make this Reflex save 40% of the time, and has no problem using a ranged weapon (typically at 5% chance less of a hit chance). The problem with Entangle is that the spell specifically cites DM interpretation for different terrain types (for instance, I tell players that Entangle does not work in rocky or sandy terrains... because no plants). Entangle is a good spell for mass combat, but wasted against a single opponent (in this case, Magic Stone would be a better choice).

[Zarin]

I had 6 players at the time, and every class was straight up from the DMG tables, with group voted feat selection to get the most generic build possible (to guard against builds that specifically target a single type of opponent- this was the Boy Scout approach, such as "be prepared.") Every base class was pitted against every other class (except itself).

The one variable you haven't mentioned is players, did players rotate through the classes? Is it possible that the player playing a druid was inexperienced with druids?

I have a hard time believing that a fighter could beat a druid (or any caster played effectively) a majority of the time at any level.

[mangosta71]

If the Druid doesn't use entangle, then yeah the fighter is taking AoO's from the pet. However, why wouldn't he lock his opponent down if all he sees is a fighter? At early levels, a druid is going to need to use that spell, and use it often if they're in solo combat. It's one of their most important spells since they don't become near invincible for a few more levels. The only downside to Entangle is that it's an area of effect, so sending in the animal companion means your dog or wolf is now trapped by your own spell.

The entangle doesn't have to be centered on the fighter - the druid can center it behind the fighter so that the fighter is on the edge, and his animal companion is unhindered.

OR the druid doesn't use entangle, and the fighter provokes an AoO when he moves away from the animal companion so as to not provoke an AoO when he attacks.

OR the fighter limits himself to a 5-foot step, in which case the animal companion and druid both move up and flank him so that, no matter what the fighter does, he still provokes at least one AoO per round.

OR the druid summons something to flank with his animal companion.

[CaladanMoonblad]

The one variable you haven't mentioned is players, did players rotate through the classes? Is it possible that the player playing a druid was inexperienced with druids?

I have a hard time believing that a fighter could beat a druid (or any caster played effectively) a majority of the time at any level.

In our experiment, caster players played caster builds, and martial players played martial builds. This was done to mitigate the variable of system mastery.

Run the experiment yourself with your group. Replicate it based on what I've reported here. That's the value of a truly objective study with properly isolated variables.

What I find hard to believe, is all these druids willing to sacrifice their best friend on a chance encounter, but that's part of the validity issue with experimental designs.

[Snails]

Why? The only prerequisite is "Fly speed" and a druid has a very easy time getting that as it is selecting a feat. Druids qualify for other monster feats if they can wildshape into creatures that qualify. Nothing about the prerequisites of such things require that they be "permanent" or "part of the druid's natural form."

That is not how I would read Core RAW. There is nothing special about Wildshape that implies this kind of access. From a rules perspective, a Fighter can equally argue "Hey, the Wizard can polymorph me". In fact, it is a terrible interpretation because everyone will just take Flyby Attack by mid-levels. Everybody.

The Druid class has problematic aspects. It has many resources and many possible avenues to use those resources. Being indulgent in terms of monster feats and armor (non-Core is too nonrestrictive) is what takes a real but moderate-sized balance problem and makes it truly huge.

[Flickerdart]

What I find hard to believe, is all these druids willing to sacrifice their best friend on a chance encounter, but that's part of the validity issue with experimental designs.
The animal companion? He's not a druid's best friend by any stretch of the imagination. As one with nature, the druid knows all about survival of the fittest - if the pet dies, it's because it wasn't fit enough, and he can get a new one tomorrow that's better.

The fighter, on the other hand, only gets one fighter. Will he fight to the death?

[Pickford]

Three main reasons: a) Leadership is not a Fighter class feature, and synergizes with exactly zero Fighter class features or ability scores; b) Druids are ridiculously good at trashing large armies of low-HD types; c) if this is a duel, minions are probably a no-go, especially in large groups like that, but if it's a set-piece battle, the Druid will have all its buffs up and be ready for most anything — neither possibility helps the Fighter especially.

The door was opened by the Druid getting leadership for a cohort, I just followed through that door.

How effective the Druid is versus the army really depends on the Druid's ability to act before the army kills him. That means losing initiative is basically death for the Druid and winning is 'maybe' surviving.

If the Druid wants to skip the whole cohort thing for trying to show they're a 'better' Fighter, that would probably be the best route as some are fond of saying it's not the abilities of the Druid that are winning this argument anymore, it's the cohort.

edit: Gavin sure, sorry I got through typing all this to Tugg and scrolled to see your response :smalleek: well, it stands as worth saying.


Eggynack:

I'm aware. I'm pointing out that the AC is significantly lower than it easily could be in a different form. Desmodu hunting bats, for example, have 20 AC. That was just my first toss too. Legendary eagles have an AC of 25, and those are easily accessible by level 16. They also have +10 initiative, so now the whole thing is up to +15 for reference. Stacking greater luminous armor helps with AC in this case too. What I'm saying is that the druidic AC you mentioned is aberrantly low, and that's without items. Toss a monk's belt with a wilding clasp on, and you get your wisdom mod in AC. You can get much higher than 17.

That's all very well and good, but the example was the Dire Tiger form. I'm not going to address every conceivable case example as that is an infinitely long post which would include plausible homebrewed monsters (animals) that a DM could come up with.

Kane0:

I'm sure its been said already, but why not compare the lvl 16 Animal companion against the fighter first, then the actual druid afterwards? I'm sure he would get the message after nearly being beaten by one of the druids class features (which the fighter does not have any of).

Dire Tiger was mentioned specifically, AC 17, 120 hp. The Fighter can easily deal that much in ranged combat in 1 round at level 16. (Please bear in mind, the challenge rating of a Dire Tiger is 8, so animal companions really aren't as threatening at higher levels as at low levels;

Gavinnfoxx:

Warp Wood, Repel Wood, Wood Rot...

Good ideas assuming the bow/ranged weapon has a wood component (a likely assumption) or isn't made out of another material (possible, and given that tactic worth considering).

Flaw though:

L1: 8 slots

Segojan’s Armor: 1x (Use for medium form, like your dragon form)

Kuo-Toa Skin: 3x (Use on self and animals, be sure to share the selfcast with companion)

Entangle 2x

Enrage Animal 1x -- use on your animal companion if you want! Or the bear! You can use it with Swift Concentration if you care to, or drop the concentration


L2: 8 Slots

Heart of Air (Personal, only works on you and AC)

Cloud Wings

Lesser Restoration (2x) -- For your Greater luminous armor and not sleeping

Bull’s Strength - 2x

Bear’s Endurance - 2x

L3: 7 Slots

Greater Magic Fang (3x) -- give a +1 to all natural weapns for 1- you and AC, 2. wild cohort, 3 commanded animal

Venomfire 1x

Heart of Water 1x (Personal, only works on you and AC)

Scales of the Sealord 1x (Personal--Only works on you and Animal Companion)

Treasure Scent 1x

L4: 7 Slots

Greater Luminous Armor (1x, share with animal companion via share spells; doesn’t work on other animals because they aren’t good aligned)

Heart of Earth

Extended Spiderskin (2x -- use on the OTHER two animals, a few minutes before you expect a fight)

Extended Giant’s Wrath (1x) -- use when in a Dire Polar Bear form... with bull’s strength up...

Dispel Magic (2x)

L5: 6 Slots

Heart of Fire (Personal, use on you and your AC)

Cloak of the Sea (1x)

Quickened Briar Web (1x) (Use in boss fights)

Quickened Bite of the Wererat (1x) (Use in boss fights)

Baleful Polymoph (2x)

L6: 6 Slots

Energy Immunity: Fire

Energy Immunity: Cold

Energy Immunity: Acid

Energy Immunity: Electricity

Energy Immunity: Sonic

Superior Resistance

(note that there is a trick to these, if you want to have more level 6 slots: extend spell them with a rod of extend spell, and cast half of them one day half of them another day. See superior resistance bit for level 7 as well)

L7: 4 Slots

Quickened Arctic Haze

Extended Fire Seeds (1x)

((Every other day)) Extended Superior Resistance (2x) (Here is how it works: Day 1. Cast extended superior resistance on self and share with animal companion, and another one one of the other animals. Cast Superior resistance on the last animal. Day 2: Cast Normal superior resistance on the last animal. Prepare a few more fire seeds or quickened arctic haze’s or whatever that day) Day three: Repeat day 1. Or adventure every other day, and fill up your l7 slots with Extened Superior Resistance and Extended Energy Immunity on your off days)

L8: 4 Slots

Leonal’s Roar

Quickened Freedom of Movement (2x) -- When you need this, you really need this...

Quickened Vortex of Teeth

L9: 3 Slots

Summon Elemental Monolith (Remember to use Swift Concentration on this one...)

Shapechange (2x)

The druid you mentioned doesn't have those memorized for the fight. Ouch.

mangosta71:

Except that every time the fighter takes a shot at the druid he's provoking an AoO from the druid's animal companion...

5' steps don't exist in your game (they 'never' provoke an attack of opportunity)? And are there really 70 other mangostas?

Talya:

Why? The only prerequisite is "Fly speed" and a druid has a very easy time getting that as it is selecting a feat. Druids qualify for other monster feats if they can wildshape into creatures that qualify. Nothing about the prerequisites of such things require that they be "permanent" or "part of the druid's natural form."

Actually they have to have it naturally. The Druid doesn't have a fly speed, their wild-shape does. That's not feat-qualifying.

angry_bear:

And for an earlier post, my mistake about warp wood. It is only available at level 3. However, bone bows are incredibly uncommon, and what's even more uncommon is a fighter with a sling. Also, I'm not even sure that bone weapons are in core; which this duel is still based around right? Because if splatbooks are available, the level 1 druid's standard combat rotation does change...

Slings are actually free, given that I'd be a tad surprised if someone made a character who could use them but didn't take it for the ride.

[Snowbluff]

Wait, why are we using random spell lists? Those spells are pretty common for general druid use. We should have random fighter feats as well.

[Pickford]

Wait, why are we using random spell lists? Those spells are pretty common for general druid use. We should have random fighter feats as well.

We're not, that was a spell list drawn up specifically by Gavinnfoxx.

[Kazyan]

Wait, why are we using random spell lists? Those spells are pretty common for general druid use. We should have random fighter feats as well.

It's not a random list. The Druid also does not have access to Retconjuration, so he can't retroactively change his prepared spells for the day.

[Gnaeus]

Dire Tiger was mentioned specifically, AC 17, 120 hp. The Fighter can easily deal that much in ranged combat in 1 round at level 16. (Please bear in mind, the challenge rating of a Dire Tiger is 8, so animal companions really aren't as threatening at higher levels as at low levels;

Please bear in mind that the AC 17 120 hp Dire Tiger is not the one the fighter fights or competes with. Add leather armor, about a dozen long term buff spells, finishing up with Animal Growth on T1, and about 50-80k in gear. The tiger is going to be winning init, and with Pounce and its enhanced movement, it is entirely possible that it will be eating the fighter before he gets a shot off.

[GreenETC]

Our group followed sound scientific experimental policy (we're all in the sciences).
I actually quite like the way you did the experiment, considering how much you managed to limit random variables, but I believe that the problem lies in that fact that the fight was standardized to a way that is highly disadvantageous to anybody who wasn't a tough melee fighter.

Consider the fact that a martial character has no need to ready themselves. They know all their feats, have all their items, and their weapon is right there in their hand. By contrast, the direct advantage of a caster is that you can do things that are BEYOND what a martial character can do, provided you have time to cast spells. If the Druid gets even a few rounds of unimpeded casting, the fight suddenly gets exponentially harder for the Fighter. If you place them within charging range of each other, with no buffing rounds or cover from arrows, it's almost the equivalent to putting the Fighter's sword and armor away from him, and making him put it all on.

Even just consider a Bard with ONE wall to hide behind. He could cast Invisibility and walk away quietly, giving him time to buff. A Wizard can literally be 500 miles away in one round. You even said that with Entangle, the ground needs to have plants in order to be viable, but consider the implications of stuff like that, like light levels or environment choice, that could warp the entire fight to a different direction. Trying to force a fight that is an obvious disadvantage to a caster, or to any character simply by design doesn't seem like a fair representation of their capabilities, and Fighters lack the ability to adapt very well to the things that could give another class a slight advantage over them. A Druid can make Dogs to sniff out a hiding Rogue, while the Fighter has to go look himself.

This is why standardized arena fights just aren't worth doing.

[Snowbluff]

It's not a random list. The Druid also does not have access to Retconjuration, so he can't retroactively change his prepared spells for the day.

That spell list seems pretty general. What spell list are we going with. Did every level get filled with something crappy?

[angry_bear]

Doesn't matter that slings are free, it's a question of whether or not a fighter is going to bother having one with him. Clubs and Quarter Staffs are also free, but it's not often that a fighter uses those either. I'll agree that a fighter might have a bow, provided he had enough money left over after their armour purchases. But I've honestly never seen a fighter use a sling in any game I've played, or run. So the odds of one having a sling seem pretty low to me...

[Pickford]

Please bear in mind that the AC 17 120 hp Dire Tiger is not the one the fighter fights or competes with. Add leather armor, about a dozen long term buff spells, finishing up with Animal Growth on T1, and about 50-80k in gear. The tiger is going to be winning init, and with Pounce and its enhanced movement, it is entirely possible that it will be eating the fighter before he gets a shot off.

Animal growth has to be 'cast'. It's not on round 1 and even if the companion beat the Fighter in initiative, it doesn't matter, the animal only attacks as the result of a handle animal check which (even as a free action) must occur on the Druids turn.

Also, this fight starts at more than 80' distance which exceeds the Dire Tiger's ability to move in a charge. So no joy for the pincussion. I mean dead battle cat.

GreenETC:
Standard assumptions would be that all weapons are stowed.

Leaving the arena is a defeat.

Spells are memorized, so we're skipping the first hour of the day where spellcasters are basically helpless.

Snowbluff:
We're going with Gavinnfoxx's spell list, you'd have to take any complaints up with him, it was meant to buff the Druid's melee capabilities, meager though they may be.

Edit:
Angry_bear:
Well now that you know those are free, you're maybe inclined to pick one up as a backup weapon, no?

[CaladanMoonblad]

@GreenETC- Correct on the effect of different terrains. I previously typed our terrain feature, but I'll reiterate to save you time scrolling through this thread. We arbitrarily set the experimental stage as a standard Chessex battlemap, tossed 3 different sized stones to represent cover (1/4, 1/2, full) and rough terrain (2 squares vs 1 square)... and then kept it static between fight sessions. This was done on a group vote prior to any actual battle; everyone (including their playing style) agreed to the conditions.

So yes, the agreed upon battlemap had cover to varying degrees. It was not a Tron arena. Cover is useful to any character in fear of a ranged attack (spell or missile). Changing the terrain, while keeping everything else equal, would in effect be investigating the variable of terrain on the outcome of the fight.

The 50' apart, and 50' from the edge of the map (cannot leave the map) was arbitrarily chosen from the outset. A caster who wins initiative could cast a spell and move out of charge range. Please note that the terrain chosen also effectively negates a long range character from using the full extent of their longbow/etc. The parameters were agreed to in order to mitigate and hold constant terrain as a factor. Again, any time an experiment is run, it is to maximize control of variables at the expense of validity. It's the trade off between the lab and the field in order to study the relationship of specific variables (such as class superiority in our experiment).

For the record, we used "generic race"... basically human without the extra feat or skill point bonus. Just 30' movement, medium size, no attribute modifiers, no penalties or bonuses of any kind.

[GreenETC]

Leaving the arena is a defeat.
This seems unnecessary. What good is a win or loss to someone when all they care about is being alive or dead? I'd rather lose a boxing match, forfeiting, than fight and break my nose or worse. Why would the spellcaster care about beating someone, when they could just choose to not?


The 50' apart, and 50' from the edge of the map (cannot leave the map) was arbitrarily chosen from the outset. A caster who wins initiative could cast a spell and move out of charge range. Please note that the terrain chosen also effectively negates a long range character from using the full extent of their longbow/etc. The parameters were agreed to in order to mitigate and hold constant. Again, any time an experiment is run, it is to maximize control of variables at the expense of validity. It's the trade off between the lab and the field in order to study the relationship of specific variables (such as class superiority in our experiment).
This is my issue with the entire point of PvP style fighting. You traded off the ability for long-range strategies, which is inherently limiting. There's no way for something like this to actual be done in a way that could be represented as completely valid, since a nay-sayer will just say "Well why wasn't the Druid a 40ft flying bear floating above a dinosaur, since that's what he can do?"

Despite the effort placed into the test, I don't think it really proves anything other than some characters work well when placed under these specific conditions. It had a very nice set of parameters, but trying to judge characters who do entirely different things (Rogue vs Knight, etc) in the same way seems far too difficult to me.

[busterswd]

In our experiment, caster players played caster builds, and martial players played martial builds. This was done to mitigate the variable of system mastery.

Run the experiment yourself with your group. Replicate it based on what I've reported here. That's the value of a truly objective study with properly isolated variables.

What I find hard to believe, is all these druids willing to sacrifice their best friend on a chance encounter, but that's part of the validity issue with experimental designs.

You're ascribing positive generalities to the merits of your system, listing whatever conclusions you've come up with, and not actually SAYING what spell choices the druid had, what "generic feats good for fighting any class" constitute, and otherwise just committing one of the most basic errors with any purportedly reputable scientific study: you're omitting the details of your experiment so as to avoid peer review.

You've also proclaimed that spell choices must be random, and that optimization should be avoided for the sake of objectivity. Both of which are hogwash. As for the former, for some reason, you're equating randomization with a lack of bias, except you're breaking the framework of your experiment so as to yield completely irrelevant real world results by doing so. It is as if you are trying to test the effects of smoking on people, and your "smoker" pool is either a man who has smoked one cigarette a year, or a chain smoker who's on 3 packs a day and going strong. Both of them are technically active smokers, but their are going to be DRAMATIC differences when comparing them to someone who's never touched a cigarette in his life.

For the latter, there has to be some degree of intelligent design and play when you are conducting this sort of experiment, especially if you're trying to describe a flaw in the tier system. Tier systems are built on the assumption that each candidate is being used to its reasonably full potential. If you're trying to argue that with two players who have never seen 3.5 before, a fighter can beat a druid, there's enough of a random factor in that to make it a reasonable statement. That's not a particularly useful framework, however, regardless of what conclusions you arrive at.

[Pickford]

This seems unnecessary. What good is a win or loss to someone when all they care about is being alive or dead? I'd rather lose a boxing match, forfeiting, than fight and break my nose or worse. Why would the spellcaster care about beating someone, when they could just choose to not?

Yes, withdrawal is an option in all scenarios. How does that not say 'hey, I'm not capable of taking on my enemy'?

[Gnaeus]

Animal growth has to be 'cast'. It's not on round 1 and even if the companion beat the Fighter in initiative, it doesn't matter, the animal only attacks as the result of a handle animal check which (even as a free action) must occur on the Druids turn.

Also, this fight starts at more than 80' distance which exceeds the Dire Tiger's ability to move in a charge. So no joy for the pincussion. I mean dead battle cat.

We are comparing the pets ACTUAL ability to outtank the fighter. So stick the Druid in initiative order, with his buffs (so he goes before the fighter also), and he orders the pet to attack and buffs it on round one. Your strawman is a strawman.

This is a melee fighter, remember. Not a ranged build. So, he can't even drop the buffed pet in a round. Assuming that he has Adamantine arrows (not a guarantee for a melee fighter), he will get attacks at something like +19, +19, +14, +9, +4 (assuming Haste, not a lot of dex, probably has a magic bow, but he didn't spend much on it). The BUFFED pet will have an AC somewhere in the 25 range, possibly much higher. So fighter will hit something like 3 times, maybe less. Assuming his damage beats the tiger's DR, our melee fighter probably won't do much more than 40 damage, - the tiger's temp HP. If a melee fighter cannot beat the druid's pet, it is clear that druid outfighters the fighter.

Druid + Pet will do even better on a same game challenge, because while the fighter may have adamantine magic arrows, most opponents will not beat both DR's so the druid's Stoneskin will be a huge factor.

[GreenETC]

Yes, withdrawal is an option in all scenarios. How does that not say 'hey, I'm not capable of taking on my enemy'?
How does that say that at all? Different classes are suited to different things. If a Knight challenges a Rogue to a fight, and the Rogue concedes, letting himself get tied up, only to wiggle free from his bindings and slay the Knight as he sleeps, does that mean the Rogue "lost?"

Just because you can't beat someone in a specific scenario doesn't mean you can't handle them. You're not going to challenge an Olympian in their sport of choice, so why should a character continue to fight in a disadvantageous position when they could ditch out? Especially in the case of a spellcaster, who literally loses nothing other than a small amount of personal dignity if he teleports to his own house 4 days away.

[angry_bear]

I'm not really inclined to pick up a sling as a back up weapon, no. It might be free, but the ammunition is 1 SP for 10 bullets. The range is still weak, and the damage is still unimpressive. A sling is for a caster who doesn't have weapon familiarity with a good ranged weapon. And even then, he's just killing time until he gets that wand of magic missiles, or has a high enough caster level to call down lightning each turn.

[CaladanMoonblad]

You're ascribing positive generalities to the merits of your system, listing whatever conclusions you've come up with, and not actually SAYING what spell choices the druid had, what "generic feats good for fighting any class" constitute, and otherwise just committing one of the most basic errors with any purportedly reputable scientific study: you're omitting the details of your experiment so as to avoid peer review.

You've also proclaimed that spell choices must be random, and that optimization should be avoided for the sake of objectivity. Both of which are hogwash. As for the former, for some reason, you're equating randomization with a lack of bias, except you're breaking the framework of your experiment so as to yield completely irrelevant real world results by doing so. It is as if you are trying to test the effects of smoking on people, and your "smoker" pool is either a man who has smoked one cigarette a year, or a chain smoker who's on 3 packs a day and going strong. Both of them are technically active smokers, but their are going to be DRAMATIC differences when comparing them to someone who's never touched a cigarette in his life.

For the latter, there has to be some degree of intelligent design and play when you are conducting this sort of experiment, especially if you're trying to describe a flaw in the tier system. Tier systems are built on the assumption that each candidate is being used to its reasonably full potential. If you're trying to argue that with two players who have never seen 3.5 before, a fighter can beat a druid, there's enough of a random factor in that to make it a reasonable statement. That's not a particularly useful framework, however, regardless of what conclusions you arrive at.

You're mistaken on many points.

We did the experiment to satisfy our own curiosity about the classes. This is not a peer reviewed academic journal, but a forum. I am relating what my group did, years ago, based upon my memory. I have urged many people to run the experiment themselves, and purposely did not provide a spell list as that was up to my players who crafted their generic build (and not something I remember). I gave a description of underlying values for spell and feat selection. While the experiment was crafted with scientific principles in mind, we did not do a full run. We did best 2 out of 3 for time's sake. Our n=3, for each variable. In previous posts, this was clearly stated.

Regarding Random spells assertion; mistaken again. Please use direct quotes. Do not paraphrase and risk a strawman. I will not address this again, as I have repeated myself multiple times on this very point, and adequately explained what actually happened.

You are free to do a full run with N>130 using Excel (or SPSS) and post here. I'm not stopping you.

[Pickford]

We are comparing the pets ACTUAL ability to outtank the fighter. So stick the Druid in initiative order, with his buffs (so he goes before the fighter also), and he orders the pet to attack and buffs it on round one. Your strawman is a strawman.

This is a melee fighter, remember. Not a ranged build. So, he can't even drop the buffed pet in a round. Assuming that he has Adamantine arrows (not a guarantee for a melee fighter), he will get attacks at something like +19, +19, +14, +9, +4 (assuming Haste, not a lot of dex, probably has a magic bow, but he didn't spend much on it). The BUFFED pet will have an AC somewhere in the 25 range, possibly much higher. So fighter will hit something like 3 times, maybe less. Assuming his damage beats the tiger's DR, our melee fighter probably won't do much more than 40 damage, - the tiger's temp HP. If a melee fighter cannot beat the druid's pet, it is clear that druid outfighters the fighter.

Druid + Pet will do even better on a same game challenge, because while the fighter may have adamantine magic arrows, most opponents will not beat both DR's so the druid's Stoneskin will be a huge factor.

The Druid doesn't have an innate dexterity that's particularly high, what non-spell buffs (as remember, those have not been cast by round 1) and natural form ability is the Druid using that you can confidently claim they go first?

I assumed nothing, I worked the numbers and the Fighter can easily hit the Dire Tiger with every shot and standard weaponry. The damage dealt from a composite bow would be enough to kill the Tiger in most cases in one round.

Please show your work as it's easier to discuss something rather than nothing. edit: I also have no idea where you came to the conclusion Fighters can't use Ranged weapons.

GreenETC:
Because the character is fleeing the scenario. If they were capable of handling the scenario as given, they wouldn't be fleeing. Remember, this is a one-off fight to the death. We could equate it to an arena fight where options for fleeing the battlefield have been previously eliminated (i.e. teleportation out of the field is prevented).

angry_bear: By level 16 1sp is not really worth noting.

[dascarletm]

I disagree strongly. While feats are a class feature of every class, leadership has to be treated seperately for this discussion.

1) leadership is only attainable with the DM's agreement.
2) Leadership has nothing to do with class features, because you're essentially getting an army for free, if you booste your leadership scores enough.

Pickford's example was perfect in showing how useless it would be to take leadership for one or both characters into account.

I'm not really saying any of that, sorry if you were misled.
1) True, but the DM doesn't have to allow anything really.
2) Yes, (You seem to think I am making an argument that the fighter should be able to use leadership in a fight or something, which I'm not.) I'm not seeing the logic behind this. The feat leadership has nothing to do with class features, (that may very well be true) but the reason is that it gives you a free army. So thusly anything that gives a free army (Thrallherd or anything similar) is not applicable to class features. I don't think this is what your really meant.:smallbiggrin:


That's not necessarily the case, though, especially compared to a Druid, which only really needs one feat (although others do not go amiss). Basically, a Fighter is not in general so thoroughly endowed with feats that it can simply select random whatevers; each feat selected has a fairly substantial opportunity cost.

Give me a nickle for every time I've seen people say a fighter runs out of feats to take, and I'll give you one when they say a straight fighter still doesn't have enough feats. (I think I'll be richer.):smalltongue:

To be clear leadership isn't something I'd take into account necessarily, but it is a point to remember that in an actual game, unless the DM says no leadership, a fighter would probably find it easier to take.

For a Druid filling the role of melee bruiser he'll probably take something like this (I've not thought it out too much, but here is my first quick go at it.)
1. Extend Spell
3. Natural Spell
6. Hover
9. Imp Natural Attack
12. etc.

Now this is probably not optimized and I'm sure it could be better.

[Flickerdart]

If the fighter uses his Leadership army to win, what part of that is his accomplishment?

[dascarletm]

That's not necessarily the case, though, especially compared to a Druid, which only really needs one feat (although others do not go amiss). Basically, a Fighter is not in general so thoroughly endowed with feats that it can simply select random whatevers; each feat selected has a fairly substantial opportunity cost.

Hence:


2) Yes, (You seem to think I am making an argument that the fighter should be able to use leadership in a fight or something, which I'm not.)
And


To be clear leadership isn't something I'd take into account necessarily, but it is a point to remember that in an actual game, unless the DM says no leadership, a fighter would probably find it easier to take.

[Gnaeus]

The Druid doesn't have an innate dexterity that's particularly high, what non-spell buffs (as remember, those have not been cast by round 1) and natural form ability is the Druid using that you can confidently claim they go first?

I assumed nothing, I worked the numbers and the Fighter can easily hit the Dire Tiger with every shot and standard weaponry. The damage dealt from a composite bow would be enough to kill the Tiger in most cases in one round.

Please show your work as it's easier to discuss something rather than nothing. edit: I also have no idea where you came to the conclusion Fighters can't use Ranged weapons.
If long term buffs are not precast, your test is meaningless. All spells with a duration over 2 hours should be cast, or your analysis is pointless.

In play, the pet is buffed. If your test does not mimic play conditions, why bother?

Of course the fighter can use a bow. As long as it is a melee fighter build, it is not likely to be doing more than 1d8+1d6+6 or 7 per arrow. As the pet has an AC of at least 25 (leather armor, maybe magical, barkskin, defensive items), he won't be hitting with more than 3 arrows. Pet has DR 10/Adamantine from the Stoneskin, so if no adamantine arrows, damagw will be minimal. Otherwise, it won't come close to killing the pet, which has temp HP, and a con boost, and another con boost from Animal Growth. If you have a ranged fighter build, as was previously mentioned, you just get blown away by the lightning bird druid. The only reason to compare with the pet is tank vs. tank.

The Druid gets about a +6 dex bonus from his wildshaped dex, and another +5 from primal spells. He should be about +11 without any other init buffs. The tiger will have a similar lead over the fighter.

[Deadline]

In play, the pet is buffed. If your test does not mimic play conditions, why bother?

Because it is the only way to hold on to the idea that melee types in D&D are not at a horrible disadvantage when it comes to caster types. You'll see this often here, usually on Monkdays. Someone will make a claim about how a caster vs. a melee isn't as cut and dried as the "forum culture" or "forum groupthink" says it is, then there will be 10-20 or so pages of raging debate as general concepts are thrown around, people get accused of playing Schroedinger's whatever, a few people pop-in to say "lol, wizards win", and then the builds and scenarios come out around page 30. Once that happens, the caster proponents will claim that the melee proponents are posing ridiculous scenarios against incompetent casters and point out choices they think are biased, and the melee proponents will either defend their choices, declare their viewpoint correct via fiat, or change their melee type build for another go around of this cycle. Around page 40, things take a turn for the worse (if they haven't already), and the name-calling starts by both sides. Near page 50, the mods step in and there is cake.

[eggynack]

The Druid doesn't have an innate dexterity that's particularly high, what non-spell buffs (as remember, those have not been cast by round 1) and natural form ability is the Druid using that you can confidently claim they go first?

I assumed nothing, I worked the numbers and the Fighter can easily hit the Dire Tiger with every shot and standard weaponry. The damage dealt from a composite bow would be enough to kill the Tiger in most cases in one round.

Please show your work as it's easier to discuss something rather than nothing. edit: I also have no idea where you came to the conclusion Fighters can't use Ranged weapons.

Are we still talking about an all book game at level 16? I gave a pretty accurate description of a druid who uses nothing but all day buffs to get +15 to initiative. That's one 24 hour spell and one wildshape form as the only expended resources. buffs that last somewhere between rounds and ten minutes per level are up for debate, but by level 16 hours per day is an all day buff, and primal instinct literally lasts 24 hours. Even without that, seriously, dire tortoise. They always act in the surprise round. I can confidently state that the druid is going first, and there are several perfectly viable strategies that a druid can pull off in the surprise round if they're waddling around in dire tortoise form all the time. Greater luminous armor is another spell that lasts long enough and is low enough level at 16 that I'd expect any druid to have it on all day. The strength damage is really not a problem. Basically, the tiger is running around at 25 AC instead of 17 from that alone.

[Gavinfoxx]

We're not, that was a spell list drawn up specifically by Gavinnfoxx.

For the purposes of outfightering the fighter. Which, by this definition, is melee specific. And involves pre-buffing, with buffs that will last all day. If for some reason the Druid doesn't have the buffs up, she finds a safe place to hole up for until she can meditate at the next time of day, puts the buffs up, and attacks once she is ready.

If you are assuming that the arena fight is done with no-buffs, she will of course have a completely different list!!

[eggynack]

6. Hover
I really don't understand the point of hover here. There are lots of good wildshape forms that have good flying maneuverability. I think the best one in core at level 16 might be the dire bat, but I could easily be wrong. If the character's only goal is flying out of harm's way, hover isn't really giving a druid anything he doesn't already have. Also, it's a bit dubious to claim that wildshape grants prerequisites for stuff. I'm not saying that you can't, i'm just saying that there's a lot of controversy on that issue.

Edit: Also, natural spell can be taken at 6th at the earliest. Wildshape is a prerequisite.

[GreenETC]

We could equate it to an arena fight where options for fleeing the battlefield have been previously eliminated (i.e. teleportation out of the field is prevented).
Doesn't that just prove the point though? If the only reason one combatant won was because an outside force was preventing his opponent from using some of his strongest preventative measures, how can it truly be said that the first guy was better? No amount of numbers that a Fighter puts out can counteract the immeadiate "not there"ed-ness of a caster, which makes for a phyrric victory at best.

[eggynack]

You're mistaken on many points.

We did the experiment to satisfy our own curiosity about the classes. This is not a peer reviewed academic journal, but a forum. I am relating what my group did, years ago, based upon my memory. I have urged many people to run the experiment themselves, and purposely did not provide a spell list as that was up to my players who crafted their generic build (and not something I remember). I gave a description of underlying values for spell and feat selection. While the experiment was crafted with scientific principles in mind, we did not do a full run. We did best 2 out of 3 for time's sake. Our n=3, for each variable. In previous posts, this was clearly stated.

Regarding Random spells assertion; mistaken again. Please use direct quotes. Do not paraphrase and risk a strawman. I will not address this again, as I have repeated myself multiple times on this very point, and adequately explained what actually happened.

You are free to do a full run with N>130 using Excel (or SPSS) and post here. I'm not stopping you.
The fact of the matter is that you've continually relied on the idea that your experiments were sufficiently scientific to be used as the basis of our understanding of this battle. If you actually have no data at all about what went into these two characters, then I really don't see the point in bringing it up. Beyond everything else, beyond controlling for variables and running lots of tests, beyond setting stable parameters and making the fight fair, knowing what actually went into the experiment is possibly the most important thing behind making something scientific. Otherwise you just say, "This was a fair fight," and what? We all just stand around nodding our heads in agreement? Without the actual data, I have no way to say for sure whether your build choices were fair or logical or anything. Your druid spell list could be the greatest thing in the world, and I would have no way of knowing. This also applies to feats, equipment choices, and things in general. I feel, that given this utter lack of information, that it is fair to disregard your experiments entirely. If some guy came up to you, in your science field of choice, and gave you results that seemed totally off the wall to you, would you accept those results without fully formed data to support it? I somehow doubt it.

On the random spells thing, you've mentioned the idea several times, but have never given explicit mention of what randomized spells meant. By this point, I'm inclined to think that the character had several specialized lists and chose from them at random, but you could always just fill us in on what you meant with some examples or something. The term randomized spell list can mean a ton of different stuff, so it makes sense that we'd be confused by the term.

[busterswd]

The fact of the matter is that you've continually relied on the idea that your experiments were sufficiently scientific to be used as the basis of our understanding of this battle. If you actually have no data at all about what went into these two characters, then I really don't see the point in bringing it up. Beyond everything else, beyond controlling for variables and running lots of tests, beyond setting stable parameters and making the fight fair, knowing what actually went into the experiment is possibly the most important thing behind making something scientific. Otherwise you just say, "This was a fair fight," and what? We all just stand around nodding our heads in agreement? Without the actual data, I have no way to say for sure whether your build choices were fair or logical or anything. Your druid spell list could be the greatest thing in the world, and I would have no way of knowing. This also applies to feats, equipment choices, and things in general. I feel, that given this utter lack of information, that it is fair to disregard your experiments entirely. If some guy came up to you, in your science field of choice, and gave you results that seemed totally off the wall to you, would you accept those results without fully formed data to support it? I somehow doubt it.

On the random spells thing, you've mentioned the idea several times, but have never given explicit mention of what randomized spells meant. By this point, I'm inclined to think that the character had several specialized lists and chose from them at random, but you could always just fill us in on what you meant with some examples or something. The term randomized spell list can mean a ton of different stuff, so it makes sense that we'd be confused by the term.

This, pretty much. You can talk about proper inquiry all you want, but without actual data, it's just hearsay.

[dascarletm]

I really don't understand the point of hover here. There are lots of good wildshape forms that have good flying maneuverability. I think the best one in core at level 16 might be the dire bat, but I could easily be wrong. If the character's only goal is flying out of harm's way, hover isn't really giving a druid anything he doesn't already have. Also, it's a bit dubious to claim that wildshape grants prerequisites for stuff. I'm not saying that you can't, i'm just saying that there's a lot of controversy on that issue.

Edit: Also, natural spell can be taken at 6th at the earliest. Wildshape is a prerequisite.

Ah yes. forgot about that.

[Callin]

delete please

[angry_bear]

The Druid doesn't have an innate dexterity that's particularly high, what non-spell buffs (as remember, those have not been cast by round 1) and natural form ability is the Druid using that you can confidently claim they go first?

I assumed nothing, I worked the numbers and the Fighter can easily hit the Dire Tiger with every shot and standard weaponry. The damage dealt from a composite bow would be enough to kill the Tiger in most cases in one round.

Please show your work as it's easier to discuss something rather than nothing. edit: I also have no idea where you came to the conclusion Fighters can't use Ranged weapons.

GreenETC:
Because the character is fleeing the scenario. If they were capable of handling the scenario as given, they wouldn't be fleeing. Remember, this is a one-off fight to the death. We could equate it to an arena fight where options for fleeing the battlefield have been previously eliminated (i.e. teleportation out of the field is prevented).

angry_bear: By level 16 1sp is not really worth noting.


So is a D4 damage, unless the fighter wasted feats or gold in powering up his backup sling. I was talking about early levels which, it could kind of be useful if the fighter doesn't have a chance of getting into melee, or a bow, or even a couple of javelins to throw at an enemy. The only classes who can find a bit of use out of a sling are the ones who have no access to better ranged weapons, and can't cast repeat magic damage a turn. Basically by level 3 a sling has become obsolete for any character.

A ranged fighter still has a better chance at early levels against a druid; but after a while, the druid is near immune to ranged attacks, has a bevy of summoned creatures, and spells that make it extremely difficult for a core fighter to stand a serious chance against them.

The fighter is a great support unit though. Good at what they do, which is dealing reliable damage. However, a lot of other classes are just as capable, and in some cases, more capable than the fighter in their role. Granted people are focusing on the positives of the druid, and mentioning the negatives of a level 16 fighter right now. For example, I haven't noticed anyone mention the fact that at level 16 a fighter should have full plate, with more than a few magical enhancements; but I still think that the druid is going to definitively win against the fighter in most reasonable combat scenarios.

[eggynack]

For example, I haven't noticed anyone mention the fact that at level 16 a fighter should have full plate, with more than a few magical enhancements; but I still think that the druid is going to definitively win against the fighter in most reasonable combat scenarios.
That's only really an advantage in core. I think that an out of core druid can overcome a fighter in terms of AC. As I noted, a legendary eagle with greater luminous armor has about 33 AC, with a bonus +4 against melee. By 16th level, the druid can probably do somewhat better than that. In core, the fighter probably does a bit better in terms of AC, but I don't know the extent to which anyone particularly cares about AC at 16th level anyway.

Edit: The dire tortoise also has 25 base AC. You lose flight and regular massive initiative, and gain the utterly ridiculous lightning strike ability. It's a generally beneficial trade off in favor of the dire tortoise, I think. It's like the druidic celerity at high levels, like how primal instinct is like the druidic nerveskitter at high levels.

[Lans]

[SPOILER]


So is a D4 damage, unless the fighter wasted feats or gold in powering up his backup sling.

You add your strength to the damage dealt by a sling. Its still not a lot, but there is a pretty big difference between d4 and d4+5 to 11

[eggynack]

You add your strength to the damage dealt by a sling. Its still not a lot, but there is a pretty big difference between d4 and d4+5 to 11
I think the real question is how long it takes the sling using fighter to kill the druid. At most levels, a delay in druid murder means a pretty high chance of fighter murder. Like, as soon a summoning becomes highly viable you're pumping out a creature for every stone that the fighter is shooting. The only way for the fighter to win, if there's any way for the fighter to win, is for him to be killing the druid before he can get real actions off. If the fighter is going to be consistently one-shotting the druid, then it becomes a war that the fighter can win. If not, then at most levels the druid is a flight form and a wind wall away from leaving the fighter without any real offence. By a certain level, the fighter can be expected to have access to flight, but by that point the druid is doing other stuff

[angry_bear]

You add your strength to the damage dealt by a sling. Its still not a lot, but there is a pretty big difference between d4 and d4+5 to 11

Minimum of +7 strength mod and max damage roll to deal a point of damage if the Druid has stoneskin up. Which he probably does if he's going for a melee build, or it doesn't do anything because of wind wall if the Druid is relying on his animal companion/summons for melee combat, while he's dishing out spells at a distance. Either way, it's a worthless weapon after level 3 for any class.

This is also a level 16 fight, and we haven't discussed how badly Air or Water Elemental form is going to impact the Fighter's capabilities in damaging the Druid. There's also plant form, but I don't think there's anything particularly devastating with that option at level 16 a Druid could use against a Fighter in core. I could be mistaken on that though...

[Pickford]

If the fighter uses his Leadership army to win, what part of that is his accomplishment?

He won with a feat, and feats are Fighter class features. Bless your heart for asking though.

Dascarletm:

6. Hover

Characters have to qualify for feats when they take them. If the Druid lacks flight as a feature (Say, because they're from a monstrous race that flies naturally) they can't take the feat.

Gnaeus:

If long term buffs are not precast, your test is meaningless. All spells with a duration over 2 hours should be cast, or your analysis is pointless.

Why is it meaningless? The buffs aren't up 24/7. That means even if the Druid is as good at combat as the Fighter they can't do it all day, whereas the Fighter can.


In play, the pet is buffed. If your test does not mimic play conditions, why bother?

Ok, in play conditions the Druid encounters the Fighter in the morning and at Night. In the former scenario the Druid has 0 buffs in the latter the Druid has 0 buffs 'and' 0 spells left.

These are both entirely valid game scenarios. Which did you want to play out?


Of course the fighter can use a bow. As long as it is a melee fighter build, it is not likely to be doing more than 1d8+1d6+6 or 7 per arrow. As the pet has an AC of at least 25 (leather armor, maybe magical, barkskin, defensive items), he won't be hitting with more than 3 arrows. Pet has DR 10/Adamantine from the Stoneskin, so if no adamantine arrows, damagw will be minimal. Otherwise, it won't come close to killing the pet, which has temp HP, and a con boost, and another con boost from Animal Growth. If you have a ranged fighter build, as was previously mentioned, you just get blown away by the lightning bird druid. The only reason to compare with the pet is tank vs. tank.

The Fighter auto-hits on an AC of 25 and as mentioned in 'only' the ideal scenario does the Druid get to cast dozens of spells to buff their pet. That's 1 case out of 4 we've covered so far (Morning, Middle of the Day, Night, Duel which has rules in the game).


The Druid gets about a +6 dex bonus from his wildshaped dex, and another +5 from primal spells. He should be about +11 without any other init buffs. The tiger will have a similar lead over the fighter.

And the druid loses any dex bonus (or any other benefit) they had from items because those are subsumed in wild-shape.

Gavinnfoxx:

For the purposes of outfightering the fighter. Which, by this definition, is melee specific. And involves pre-buffing, with buffs that will last all day. If for some reason the Druid doesn't have the buffs up, she finds a safe place to hole up for until she can meditate at the next time of day, puts the buffs up, and attacks once she is ready.

If you are assuming that the arena fight is done with no-buffs, she will of course have a completely different list!!

So the Fighter has to be restricted from using their class abilities, but the Druid can pre-buff and set all the ideal conditions for the only circumstances in which they 'might' (but probably won't) win said fight? Because that's called rigging the fight.

Also for that last part about different lists. Are you saying you'd pick a different spell list if the fight was unexpected in the morning and a different one from that if the fight was unexpected at night? Because by definition the Druid has no way of knowing which it is, so this again sounds like the fight is being rigged in the Druids favor.

GreenETC:

Doesn't that just prove the point though? If the only reason one combatant won was because an outside force was preventing his opponent from using some of his strongest preventative measures, how can it truly be said that the first guy was better? No amount of numbers that a Fighter puts out can counteract the immeadiate "not there"ed-ness of a caster, which makes for a phyrric victory at best.

Not in the circumstances of a duel/arena fight, no. Fleeing the duel area is a loss there. Now don't take that to mean I don't think hit and run is a valid option, but if the question is who is better, on average, in a fight, if the Druid has to flee because their spell loadout is inadequate, they failed the test.

angry_bear:

So is a D4 damage, unless the fighter wasted feats or gold in powering up his backup sling. I was talking about early levels which, it could kind of be useful if the fighter doesn't have a chance of getting into melee, or a bow, or even a couple of javelins to throw at an enemy. The only classes who can find a bit of use out of a sling are the ones who have no access to better ranged weapons, and can't cast repeat magic damage a turn. Basically by level 3 a sling has become obsolete for any character.

A ranged fighter still has a better chance at early levels against a druid; but after a while, the druid is near immune to ranged attacks, has a bevy of summoned creatures, and spells that make it extremely difficult for a core fighter to stand a serious chance against them.

A Fighter can easily hit +11 str, giving those sling hits 1d4 + 11 damage, not to mention the use of Power Throw where the Fighter could easily hit another +6 damage without putting the chance of hitting at risk. So that's up to 5 attacks each dealing 18-22 (20 average) damage or 100 in one round from the lowly sling. Of course, if the fighter is going all David and specializing in sling combat, that'll be 22-26 (24 average) for up to 120 damage a round non-crit...of course if you're specializing in the sling it'll be magical, so that's 27-31, and possibly have some fire/frost/shock effects for another 3d6 per hit (adds 3 base damage and 18 to the max damage) for 30-49.

Average 38 x 5 hits is 190 damage...from the lowly 1d4 sling.

Of course, the bullets could have additional magical effects that increase damage and because the sling and bullets are so absurdly cheap it's not very expensive at all to do that. So we're not even near max damage. The only real deficiency is the sling will only have a range increment of 70' (+20 from ranged weapon mastery) or 120' (with Far Shot as well)

Heh, a Fighter with a composite greatbow (130' -> 195' -> 215') could fire at a target 2,150' away, further than the Druid can cast a spell, no?

[eggynack]

He won with a feat, and feats are Fighter class features. Bless your heart for asking though.

Look, can we just move past leadership? It's an utterly pointless thing to discuss. The fighter takes leadership and gets a druid friend, and the druid takes leadership and gets a druid friend, and we're back at square one. It's really not an interesting line of inquiry, and it's often not allowed in games.




Characters have to qualify for feats when they take them. If the Druid lacks flight as a feature (Say, because they're from a monstrous race that flies naturally) they can't take the feat.
This is kinda up for debate, but I don't really have an argument against yours. Suffice to say that the druid doesn't need hover because he can already get hover by taking any form with good maneuverability. I wouldn't even take hover if it were allowed, so I don't see why we should debate this point. He was wrong to bring up hover, but it makes no meaningful impact on druid power.





Why is it meaningless? The buffs aren't up 24/7. That means even if the Druid is as good at combat as the Fighter they can't do it all day, whereas the Fighter can.



Ok, in play conditions the Druid encounters the Fighter in the morning and at Night. In the former scenario the Druid has 0 buffs in the latter the Druid has 0 buffs 'and' 0 spells left.

These are both entirely valid game scenarios. Which did you want to play out?

I think it's fair to assume that the druid has access to spells that last 16 hours. He can cast them first thing in the morning, and they'll be up until he goes to sleep. 2 hours is a bit much, I think, but allowing hour/level spells at 16th seems fair. We could also just toss extend spell onto some of the lower ones and get literal all day spell having.






And the druid loses any dex bonus (or any other benefit) they had from items because those are subsumed in wild-shape.

The strategy I posted actually relies on non-core stuff in the first place, so wilding clasps are pretty cheap. It also doesn't rely on items at all ever. You get +10 to initiative just by being a legendary eagle, and primal instinct is actually 24 hour spell that gives +5 to initiative. It's 15 initiative and doesn't cost items at all. Seriously though, if we're talking out of core, wilding clasps. They're not that expensive, especially if you're at level 16 and have your items multitask a bit.




A Fighter can easily hit +11 str, giving those sling hits 1d4 + 11 damage, not to mention the use of Power Throw where the Fighter could easily hit another +6 damage without putting the chance of hitting at risk. So that's up to 5 attacks each dealing 18-22 (20 average) damage or 100 in one round from the lowly sling. Of course, if the fighter is going all David and specializing in sling combat, that'll be 22-26 (24 average) for up to 120 damage a round non-crit...of course if you're specializing in the sling it'll be magical, so that's 27-31, and possibly have some fire/frost/shock effects for another 3d6 per hit (adds 3 base damage and 18 to the max damage) for 30-49.

Average 38 x 5 hits is 190 damage...from the lowly 1d4 sling.

Of course, the bullets could have additional magical effects that increase damage and because the sling and bullets are so absurdly cheap it's not very expensive at all to do that. So we're not even near max damage. The only real deficiency is the sling will only have a range increment of 70' (+20 from ranged weapon mastery) or 120' (with Far Shot as well)

Heh, a Fighter with a composite greatbow (130' -> 195' -> 215') could fire at a target 2,150' away, further than the Druid can cast a spell, no?

Once again, are we talking about out of core? Power throw is from out of core, so I assume we are. The druid enters combat as a dire tortoise. He casts wind wall in the surprise round. Is there anything you can do to get around that? Also, can't you only use one bullet a round, because loading is a move action? Seriously though, surprise round wind wall is what you're competing with here. Also, in subsequent rounds you start facing legions of orglashes and thomils. It's pretty crazy.

[angry_bear]

He won with a feat, and feats are Fighter class features. Bless your heart for asking though.

Dascarletm:


Characters have to qualify for feats when they take them. If the Druid lacks flight as a feature (Say, because they're from a monstrous race that flies naturally) they can't take the feat.

Gnaeus:


Why is it meaningless? The buffs aren't up 24/7. That means even if the Druid is as good at combat as the Fighter they can't do it all day, whereas the Fighter can.



Ok, in play conditions the Druid encounters the Fighter in the morning and at Night. In the former scenario the Druid has 0 buffs in the latter the Druid has 0 buffs 'and' 0 spells left.

These are both entirely valid game scenarios. Which did you want to play out?



The Fighter auto-hits on an AC of 25 and as mentioned in 'only' the ideal scenario does the Druid get to cast dozens of spells to buff their pet. That's 1 case out of 4 we've covered so far (Morning, Middle of the Day, Night, Duel which has rules in the game).



And the druid loses any dex bonus (or any other benefit) they had from items because those are subsumed in wild-shape.

Gavinnfoxx:


So the Fighter has to be restricted from using their class abilities, but the Druid can pre-buff and set all the ideal conditions for the only circumstances in which they 'might' (but probably won't) win said fight? Because that's called rigging the fight.

Also for that last part about different lists. Are you saying you'd pick a different spell list if the fight was unexpected in the morning and a different one from that if the fight was unexpected at night? Because by definition the Druid has no way of knowing which it is, so this again sounds like the fight is being rigged in the Druids favor.

GreenETC:


Not in the circumstances of a duel/arena fight, no. Fleeing the duel area is a loss there. Now don't take that to mean I don't think hit and run is a valid option, but if the question is who is better, on average, in a fight, if the Druid has to flee because their spell loadout is inadequate, they failed the test.

angry_bear:


A Fighter can easily hit +11 str, giving those sling hits 1d4 + 11 damage, not to mention the use of Power Throw where the Fighter could easily hit another +6 damage without putting the chance of hitting at risk. So that's up to 5 attacks each dealing 18-22 (20 average) damage or 100 in one round from the lowly sling. Of course, if the fighter is going all David and specializing in sling combat, that'll be 22-26 (24 average) for up to 120 damage a round non-crit...of course if you're specializing in the sling it'll be magical, so that's 27-31, and possibly have some fire/frost/shock effects for another 3d6 per hit (adds 3 base damage and 18 to the max damage) for 30-49.

Average 38 x 5 hits is 190 damage...from the lowly 1d4 sling.

Of course, the bullets could have additional magical effects that increase damage and because the sling and bullets are so absurdly cheap it's not very expensive at all to do that. So we're not even near max damage. The only real deficiency is the sling will only have a range increment of 70' (+20 from ranged weapon mastery) or 120' (with Far Shot as well)

Heh, a Fighter with a composite greatbow (130' -> 195' -> 215') could fire at a target 2,150' away, further than the Druid can cast a spell, no?



So he gets 2 shots with a sling if he's taken rapid shot. If the average damage is 20, the druid takes 20 damage thanks to stone skin 40 if unbuffed. (Not counting any magical bonuses the Fighter paid gold for... On a sling) The druid casts wind wall if he didn't already have it up, and starts spam summoning animals to flank, or grapple the fighter. Loading a sling is a move action, and it's debatable that it benefits from rapid shot; but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

That's pretty impressive range for a composite greatbow, it's a shame that the duel is in warp wood or repel wood's spell radius. But granted, if the fighter wins initiative he might be able to take down an unbuffed druid on turn 1 with that equipment.

[Talya]

Talya:


Actually they have to have it naturally. The Druid doesn't have a fly speed, their wild-shape does. That's not feat-qualifying.

Show me that in the rules.

It is my understanding that you can qualify for any perequisites for feats, prestige classes, and other things, by any temporary means of gaining those prerequisites. (The downside, of course, is that you lose the benefits of those feats or prestige classes if you lose the prerequisites, until you regain them again.)

This is why items that grant feats or spells or abilities allow you to qualify for PrCs and feats... gloves of dexterity will let you take two weapon fighting for example. Take off those gloves, and you can no longer gain the benefits of two weapon fighting until you put the back on.

[TuggyNE]

He won with a feat, and feats are Fighter class features. Bless your heart for asking though.

More precisely, Fighter bonus feats are Fighter class features. Leadership is not a Fighter bonus feat.


Why is it meaningless? The buffs aren't up 24/7. That means even if the Druid is as good at combat as the Fighter they can't do it all day, whereas the Fighter can.

There's not, in general, much meaningful difference between "all the working day" and "literally all day", as long as there is at least some reasonable chance of getting a decent night's sleep (which is a high priority for casters in general, and usually achievable).


Ok, in play conditions the Druid encounters the Fighter in the morning and at Night. In the former scenario the Druid has 0 buffs in the latter the Druid has 0 buffs 'and' 0 spells left.

Are we still talking about a 16th level druid? Because the odds of them ending up with literally (or even figuratively) 0 spells is pretty low, and (up until they retreat to some safe zone to rest) their buffs haven't expired.

A Fighter might be able to penetrate such a zone, but it seems highly unlikely on the face of it, since that is very definitely not the intended purpose of the class.


The Fighter auto-hits on an AC of 25 and as mentioned in 'only' the ideal scenario does the Druid get to cast dozens of spells to buff their pet. That's 1 case out of 4 we've covered so far (Morning, Middle of the Day, Night, Duel which has rules in the game).

Morning, middle of the day, and evening will all have buffs up. (Probably not dozens in most cases, but eh.) Any other time, the Fighter has to find the Druid on their own terms.


And the druid loses any dex bonus (or any other benefit) they had from items because those are subsumed in wild-shape.

Wilding clasps are a thing, which I know should be known because they've been mentioned already in this thread.


Also for that last part about different lists. Are you saying you'd pick a different spell list if the fight was unexpected in the morning and a different one from that if the fight was unexpected at night? Because by definition the Druid has no way of knowing which it is, so this again sounds like the fight is being rigged in the Druids favor.

I think it was more "if you expect to be attacking more or less known targets, you'll pick one set of spells; if you expect to be going about your day peacefully crafting or whatever, you'd pick a different set; if you have no idea what'll happen but you're afraid of possible ambushes or whatever, yet a different one would be suitable".


Not in the circumstances of a duel/arena fight, no. Fleeing the duel area is a loss there. Now don't take that to mean I don't think hit and run is a valid option, but if the question is who is better, on average, in a fight, if the Druid has to flee because their spell loadout is inadequate, they failed the test.

Quite true, assuming an actual pre-arranged duel; any flight is forfeiting. However, in the situation of "random dude attacks you", pulling a strategic retreat for a bit while you get your ducks in a row is not a bad idea, and doesn't really count as a loss. So it's important to clarify which we're talking about!

I'd also note that a lot of those arguing for druid superiority are being rather overcautious to make sure there's a high chance of winning, rather than just leaving it to chance. However, to ensure time to buff in an arena fight, wouldn't wall of thorns (in a big heap on and over the enemy) take care of most challengers long enough to get absolutely everything up? Just about the only thing a martial character can do is use anklets of translocation, but that might have its own problems. Something to think about.

[eggynack]

Seriously, ya guys, this druid doesn't need hover. Like, he doesn't need it at all. In core, he can become a dire bat. Those things get flight speed with good maneuverability, and that means he's getting hover for free. Out of core, he can just be a dire tortoise and win the fight in the first round. There's no argument to be had here. The druid won't take hover, because why would he take hover? It doesn't make any sense. Moreover, it's not like we're going to find a solution to this sub-problem. It's a big controversy that I don't think has ever been entirely solved to anyone's satisfaction. All of the handbooks are like, "If you can get your DM's to agree with this ruling, then you can take the feat." We don't need to have this argument, and I don't think it's an argument that has a clear conclusion at all.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Druid needs no sleep. A few castings of Lesser Restoration remove the need for the Druid to sleep, and they only need to meditate to regain their spells.

[eggynack]

I'm just tossing this out there, but shouldn't we just assume that the druid wins when we're building with materials that are out of core? Am I the only one who thinks that that seems kinda self-evident? It just seems like giving the fighter access to anything from outside of core is opening up a whole can of worms that he really doesn't want to open. I've given several examples of ways for a druid to do more than win, by just winning without possibility for failure, but I could restate the whole thing if anyone thinks it's strictly necessary.

[Talya]

Seriously, ya guys, this druid doesn't need hover. Like, he doesn't need it at all. In core, he can become a dire bat. Those things get flight speed with good maneuverability, and that means he's getting hover for free. Out of core, he can just be a dire tortoise and win the fight in the first round. There's no argument to be had here. The druid won't take hover, because why would he take hover? It doesn't make any sense. Moreover, it's not like we're going to find a solution to this sub-problem. It's a big controversy that I don't think has ever been entirely solved to anyone's satisfaction. All of the handbooks are like, "If you can get your DM's to agree with this ruling, then you can take the feat." We don't need to have this argument, and I don't think it's an argument that has a clear conclusion at all.

I'm not saying they need it. It's not a particularly good feat (especially as there are some improved flight feats that would boost their speed and maneuverability in all fight forms that would be much better). I'm just objecting to the idea that they don't qualify for it. Pickford is making up rules that aren't there. It only says you need a fly speed. No matter how you get one, you qualify for hover the moment you have a fly speed.


More precisely, Fighter bonus feats are Fighter class features. Leadership is not a Fighter bonus feat.



Not only that, but despite the bonus feats a fighter has, the druid tends to have more available feats while they level to take things like leadership, at least outside of core, where the fighter narrows the gap a bit.

The fighter must string together a long bunch of synergistic feats with big prerequisites.

The druid takes Natural Spell, and perhaps Natural Bond (with natural bond, that level 16 druid's dire tiger has +2 hit dice, natural armor, strength and dexterity), and then is picking flavor that. It's not that there are no good druid feats, it's that there are none that are nearly as powerful as what they already can do as class features.


I'm just tossing this out there, but shouldn't we just assume that the druid wins when we're building with materials that are out of core? Am I the only one who thinks that that seems kinda self-evident? It just seems like giving the fighter access to anything from outside of core is opening up a whole can of worms that he really doesn't want to open. I've given several examples of ways for a druid to do more than win, by just winning without possibility for failure, but I could restate the whole thing if anyone thinks it's strictly necessary.

Well, yes, but only because we can already assume they won in core only. Splatbooks are actually more important to the fighter than they are to the druid. All the druid's most broken tricks are in core...fighter needs to dig for theirs in dozens of books at once. The druid actually drools more over new monster manuals than they do over new player resources.

The unfortunate truth is,though, that a core only druid still beats a fighter who can use every book published.

[eggynack]

I'm not saying they need it. It's not a particularly good feat (especially as there are some improved flight feats that would boost their speed and maneuverability in all fight forms that would be much better). I'm just objecting to the idea that they don't qualify for it. Pickford is making up rules that aren't there. It only says you need a fly speed. No matter how you get one, you qualify for hover the moment you have a fly speed.


I'm aware. I'm just saying that we're all kinda making up rules. It's like, an interaction that's generally not covered by rules. We could start up a new thread to argue about whether things you only get while wild shaped qualify you for feats, but I seriously don't think there's a solid answer anywhere. If you guys can find one, more power to you, but I don't think it exists. You're basically both simultaneously right, and wrong, and it doesn't really matter at all for this discussion.

[eggynack]

Well, yes, but only because we can already assume they won in core only. Splatbooks are actually more important to the fighter than they are to the druid. All the druid's most broken tricks are in core...fighter needs to dig for theirs in dozens of books at once. The druid actually drools more over new monster manuals than they do over new player resources.

The unfortunate truth is,though, that a core only druid still beats a fighter who can use every book published.
Yeah, but it's at least worth discussing at all. A druid at level 16, built to specifications, can make the fight basically impossible to win for the fighter in the surprise round. In core, at the very least he has a shot of winning initiative and shooting the druid to death with a lucky hit. I've only really been scratching the surface of non-core druid optimization with all of this initiative and AC stuff. Like, I haven't brought up golden desert honey, or the ring of the beast, or belts of battle, or anything. In core, druids are super crazy powerful. Out of core, druids are just ridiculous.

Edit: By the way, that belt of battle is also a monk's belt, in order to improve AC, and it gives a completely unnecessary, yet somewhat amusing, +2 to initiative. It's pretty cool, I think. The fighter can have a belt of battle too, but it's not really important because the goal is to kill the fighter in the surprise round before he even has time to use the belt. For those not keeping track, here's a quick log of the druid's actions. He's a dire tortoise, so in the surprise round he uses golden desert honey and a ring of the beast to summon 1d4+1 huge orglashes out of a 7th level slot as a standard action. Then, he activates the belt, and does the same thing a second time. If the fighter doesn't have a high ref save and evasion, or cold immunity, then he basically dies instantly to 7 15d6 cones of cold. That's 367.5 damage, by the by. If the first swarm of orglashes is revealed to do nothing with the cone, the second swarm can easily be something more relevant to the fight like a swarm of thomils. He can also just become a bat of some kind as a standard action, fly up as a move action, and cast wind wall as the final standard action. That's way less fun though.

Double edit: The really cool thing is that the plan is super versatile. You can basically get 1d4+1 of any summon monster VIII you want twice in a row. There's also other spells, but I like the summoning thing personally. If you can't come up with something beautiful to do with those actions, you're not thinking hard enough.

[Talya]

In core, at the very least he has a shot of winning initiative and shooting the druid to death with a lucky hit.

Level 16, in core, the fighter is missing all their ridiculous charger builds that could destroy the druid in one round.

in core, the fighter could, at best, attack 5 times with a bow (using rapid-shot).

If they roll 20's on all 5 attacks, and confirm their critical hits on all all 5, they're going to roll 15d8 damage (+ bonus.)

The druid has 8+15d8 hit points, + con bonus. The fighter's damage bonus may be slightly higher than the druids con bonus, so they've probably got about a 50-50 chance of taking the druid down in this situation. If the've got a burst-type weapon, the odds go up considerably...not that it maters.

Considering the odds of rolling 5 natural 20s on the opening salvo are 1:3,200,000 (not to mention the need to confirm the critical hits and then roll higher damage than the druid's hit points), I think we can safely assume the core fighter does not kill the druid with a bow in the opening salvo.

[Vknight]

Level 16, in core, the fighter is missing all their ridiculous charger builds that could destroy the druid in one round.

in core, the fighter could, at best, attack 5 times with a bow (using rapid-shot).

If they roll 20's on all 5 attacks, and confirm their critical hits on all all 5, they're going to roll 15d8 damage (+ bonus.)

The druid has 8+15d8 hit points, + con bonus. The fighter's damage bonus may be slightly higher than the druids con bonus, so they've probably got about a 50-50 chance of taking the druid down in this situation. If the've got a burst-type weapon, the odds go up considerably...not that it maters.

Considering the odds of rolling 5 natural 20s on the opening salvo are 1:3,200,000 (not to mention the need to confirm the critical hits and then roll higher damage than the druid's hit points), I think we can safely assume the core fighter does not kill the druid with a bow in the opening salvo.

I believe we can sum the odds up as the 1 in a million chance.
But as wizards have said the 1 in a million chance will succeed 1 out of 10 times

[eggynack]

Wow, is that really how damage looks on an archery build at level 16? I guess the fighter is kinda screwed no matter what then. I guess we could restrict book access to only the books that help the fighter without any of the ones that help druids, but that seems kinda pointless. Still, out of core I'd probably put it at even worse odds than that.

[Gnaeus]

Why is it meaningless? The buffs aren't up 24/7. That means even if the Druid is as good at combat as the Fighter they can't do it all day, whereas the Fighter can.



There's not, in general, much meaningful difference between "all the working day" and "literally all day", as long as there is at least some reasonable chance of getting a decent night's sleep (which is a high priority for casters in general, and usually achievable).

More than that, many of those buffs actually ARE up all day, because their duration is hour/level or 24h. Considering that the fighter isn't sleeping in his heavy armor, I don't think we are really factoring in what happens if they are attacked while sleeping. Considering the huge advantage that druid +pet get on their listen checks over a fighter, I think that is a good thing for the fighter, since his chances of being killed in his sleep because he didn't hear an attacker coming are ALSO much higher than druids.



Ok, in play conditions the Druid encounters the Fighter in the morning and at Night. In the former scenario the Druid has 0 buffs in the latter the Druid has 0 buffs 'and' 0 spells left.

These are both entirely valid game scenarios. Which did you want to play out?

The druid is "outfightering the fighter"? Then I want to play out normal adventuring conditions. I see the (enemy base/caves of horror/ancient tomb/wizard tower/whatever). Druid casts all his spells that have a duration that extends more than about 2 hours before he walks into the front door. Even this is actually something of an edge for the fighter, since most 16th level casters I see have a rod of metamagic:extend, or just extend spell feat and so he is also casting some min/level buffs, figuring that 32 minutes should see him through at least the first 3 fights.




The Fighter auto-hits on an AC of 25 and as mentioned in 'only' the ideal scenario does the Druid get to cast dozens of spells to buff their pet. That's 1 case out of 4 we've covered so far (Morning, Middle of the Day, Night, Duel which has rules in the game).

The melee fighter doesn't auto-hit a 25 even with his first attack.

I tell you what, pickford. Lets be adults and define this better.

Fighter can outfighter an unbuffed druid and his unbuffed pet. Once Druid has a chance to cast his normal, long duration buffs on self and pet, druid is a better fighter than fighter.

Either you agree to that statement or you agree that druid gets to prebuff.

[eggynack]

Fighter can outfighter an unbuffed druid and his unbuffed pet. Once Druid has a chance to cast his normal, long duration buffs on self and pet, druid is a better fighter than fighter.

Do note that this is only true in core, if it's ever true. Out of core, the druid beats the fighter without ever casting a single buff on himself through a combination of items and wildshape forms. Also, core wildshape forms can often make core fights swing in the druid's direction. Just being in dire bat form and casting wind wall is often enough to stop a fighter, particularly of the builds that have been proposed. The flight items that are accessible to a fighter in core aren't as good as those out of core, and the ability to get a single spell off while the fighter makes his approach can be invaluable. Summons are a big part of the druid fightering better than a fighter.

Edit: Seriously though, are we arguing about core or out of core. I still have some decent chunks of optimization stuff to rattle off if we're using all books. I haven't even gotten to non-summoning feats, and the rest of the druid's wealth by level, and the druid's spell list, and what his animal companion is, and summons that have nothing to do with rashemi elemental summoning. There's just so much to crush the fighter with, and I haven't even gotten started.

[Vknight]

I don't think Pickford will

Its the classic stalemate

Someone wants to put the one side in the least likely scenario which could happen to prove a point.

Lets say the following

-Druid & Fighter become aware of each other both are lvl16
-They know that they must kill the other in the next 24 hours or die themselves
-They both have big enough goals etc that are willing to fight one another.

-We will say that when this has happened the Druid has gone through
Half of his daily resources, and so has the Fighter(any replenishing magic item, 1/day item, whatever)

-No wish, miracle, blah blah blah etc.

-The druid Wildshapes to a prefered form. It will last for the next 32hours.
-The druid then casts the long term buffs. Digs or finds some den to sleep/hide in.
-Next morning replenished on Spells the Druid goes looking for the Fighter(taking on a aerial form for mobility). Also re-applys shorter buffs and makes sure long term buffs are still up and running

-The Fighter either is going to hunker down and prepare for stuff to get bad real fast and be really messy. Or he does whatever he can to confront the weakened Druid.


-Hunkered down fighter gets blasted out thanks to spells and buffs his set up may hit the Druid for some damage but its not going to be enough.

-Hunting Fighter encounter the Druid running a lot of Buffs still and if he's lucky standstill/long enough for both of them to think about retreating. At this point the druid will be able to heal up and come back around well the fighter may be able to heal he eats into resources that won't replenish

-Now lets say the Druid is completely without buffs(keeping in mind many run 16 hours or better), and so is his/her animal companion. The Druid is somehow out of Wildshapes and not using it(5/day that last 16 hours)
Keeping in mind a day lasts 24 hours.
So what does the Druid have at that point not much. But is that fair to the Druid no because at that point your saying take away all the things that make a Druid a Druid and have it Fight a Fighter

So all said and done

[eggynack]

I don't see why any of that stuff needs to be true. If we're not in core, then the druid just becomes a dire tortoise and casts just about zero buffs. I mean, he will cast buffs, because there are not-fighters out there that might actually be threatening, but it's not a strictly necessary thing for druid victory. The real question, ultimately, is how the fighter can possibly handle being surrounded by 2d4+2 huge thomils in the surprise round. That's like, 1,512 HP, good defenses, and a reasonable offence, all just kinda standing between the fighter and whatever he wants to do. It can also be orglashes, if cones of cold are a better plan.

Another idea that I just came up with is potentially using storm elementals instead. The sonic damage that they deal is quite a bit harder to resist in general. A single huge storm elemental is summon nature's ally VII, so that means we're getting 1d3 from an 8th level slot, and then ring of the beast takes that back down to a 7th level slot. They also all shoot out lighting damage, which isn't the most used type of damage either. Anyway, the sonic damage is about 84 from the three elementals, and then there's 189 lightning damage. That might be enough to one shot the fighter, but it also might not. There's always more options to try though. One that I haven't looked into is surrounding the fighter by a bunch of creatures with a really good grapple mod, and having them start grappling. If we want, we can even use the second standard action to cast animal growth instead of pulling out a second pile of creatures. You could probably send the grapple checks through the roof that way. Then you just kill the fighter at your leisure.

Edit: After a quick look, it seems like the roc has the best grapple mod on the summon nature's ally list with a mod of +37. If we put an animal growth on him, that might be downright inescapable, and it's another +2 from augment summoning. I should still probably take a look at thomils though, because those guys are pretty crazy sometimes.

[Gwendol]

That would be my suggestion. Simply summon a large enough grappler and pin the fighter. It can then be killed at leisure.

[Gnaeus]

I don't see why any of that stuff needs to be true. If we're not in core, then the druid just becomes a dire tortoise and casts just about zero buffs

If druid has time to wildshape, and the wildshape is still running, why isn't Heart of X, Primal X, and all the other long duration buffs running? If I have one, I'm gonna have the other. I'm not disagreeing with your analysis, but it seems like an arbitrary place to draw the line.

[eggynack]

That would be my suggestion. Simply summon a large enough grappler and pin the fighter. It can then be killed at leisure.
It's a pretty nice plan, especially with the animal growth addition. I think you get some bonus points if your ultimate kill condition is summoning yellow musk creepers to shoot musk puffs at the fighter until he fails his save and is uncontrollably drawn into plant zombification. I did that whole thing once, and it was pretty beautiful.

[eggynack]

If druid has time to wildshape, and the wildshape is still running, why isn't Heart of X, Primal X, and all the other long duration buffs running? If I have one, I'm gonna have the other. I'm not disagreeing with your analysis, but it seems like an arbitrary place to draw the line.
You're probably right, but the duration on being a dire tortoise is significantly greater than any of those. By 16th level you can wildshape 5 times a day, and each one lasts 16 hours. That's a duration that's just way too insane to ignore. Hours per level buffs definitely make sense to have too, and not having primal instinct seems pretty absurd. All I'm saying, is why argue about arbitrary preconditions when the druid can just kill the fighter essentially from nothing? It feels like all of this arguing is blinding us to the fact that druids are absurd. It's like, what if the fighter attacks the druid during the one minute of the day where he isn't buffed, and sneaks up on him, and is prepared for this exact fight, and is in terrain that's generally favorable for him? He still loses. He loses by a ton, and it's not even close. By 16th level, the druid has just transcended the fighter. If there was ever a competition running between the druid and the fighter over who is more powerful, then that competition just doesn't exist at 16th level outside of core.