Mounted Charge feats w/o the mount?

[willardthor]

Hi,

I am playing a a high-momentum character which I want to steer in the direction of using charge, spring attack and other nasty chicken-tactics. Feats like "Ride-by Attack" and "Spirited Charge" would be perfect for such a build. However, a mount just wouldn't make sense for my character (it's a wandering-on-foot kind of guy who runs faster than a horse). Do you know of variants of these feats which give the same benefits, but which do not require a mount? (and perhaps have other requirements, such as minimum distance traveled before an attack, minimum base land speed, etc.)

(put differently, what other than "training" and "you move faster because you are mounted" justifies the benefits of these two feats? If nothing, then the feat should be take-able for a high-mobility character, without riding on a mount)

Cheers,
Willard.

[Flickerdart]

Try to hit someone with a lance while mounted. Pretty simple, right? You can brace against the stirrups and put the entire weight of the horse behind the strike. Jousts work this way, and it's pretty effective.

Now try doing the same thing while running at someone. Even if you run as fast as a horse (which some people can), you simply don't have the same momentum, nor the ability to brace yourself on anything. The feat to represent this is Spring Attack - since you're busy both running and attacking, you don't get the double movement benefits of Ride-By.

Mounted charging feats are powerful, but they're intentionally offset by the fact that they can't be used in confined spaces, or if your mount is dead, or other such situations.

[willardthor]

Try to hit someone with a lance while mounted. Pretty simple, right? You can brace against the stirrups and put the entire weight of the horse behind the strike. Jousts work this way, and it's pretty effective.

Now try doing the same thing while running at someone. Even if you run as fast as a horse (which some people can), you simply don't have the same momentum, nor the ability to brace yourself on anything.
This is why the damage from a lance is tripled (can be braced), and the damage from other weapons is doubled (can't be braced).

Since there is no mount to brace a weapon against in my proposed feats, then damage should only be doubled, regardless of the weapon used.


The feat to represent this is Spring Attack - since you're busy both running and attacking, you don't get the double movement benefits of Ride-By.
I don't agree with you there. While Ride-by Attack is similar to Spring Attack in the "move before and after" sense, Ride-by Attack is more like a Charge action, which already gives you double movement. Spring Attack's main use is to sneak in an attack while maintaining distance and without provoking AoO (I think this makes the feat poorly named).


Mounted charging feats are powerful, but they're intentionally offset by the fact that they can't be used in confined spaces, or if your mount is dead, or other such situations.
I agree. This is why I suggested adding other prerequisites for taking the feat (base land speed X), and a limit on use (move Y before reaching the target).

[Slipperychicken]

You want to take a feat and double your dismounted charge damage? Look no further than Leap Attack. Once your 2H Power Attack gets ridiculous enough, it might as well be doubling your damage.

One can get around the mount requirement by being a Centaur, although this is often problematic.

As for qualifying, you need to be mounted not just because you move faster on a horse, but the horse's mass (which is roughly twice your own) also accelerates into the attack. This combined effect generates much more force than the speed alone does. You could argue the speed is already accounted for in the normal +2 attack bonus for charging.

Think about it like this: If a baseball is thrown into your face, it's going to hurt, especially if it does so very quickly. But a bowling ball moving at the same speed will hurt a lot more because it has much more weight and mass. The horse adds the mass difference, which lances are built to take advantage of, and a skilled lancer (represented by a character with the Spirited Charge feat) takes full advantage of this and can even apply the momentum to other weapons like swords.

[Telonius]

This would be completely homebrew, but ... with a character concept like this, I'd allow Dungeon Crasher to work with Overrun as well as Bull Rush.

[herrhauptmann]

Check out the zelekhut in the SRD, it qualifies for feats as if it mounted combat due to its body style.

There's similar rules in I think Races of Faerun (or players guide to faerun).

So now you can get your mounted combat feats without buying a mount because you are your own mount.

So play a centaur, bariaur, or tauric-template creature.

[willardthor]

You want to take a feat and double your dismounted charge damage? Look no further than Leap Attack.
Battle Jump is nice as well (and Headlong Rush in case you're a (half-)orc). I want more :-D


As for qualifying, you need to be mounted not just because you move faster on a horse, but the horse's mass (which is roughly twice your own) also accelerates into the attack.[...]

Think about it like this: If a baseball is thrown into your face, it's going to hurt, especially if it does so very quickly. But a bowling ball moving at the same speed will hurt a lot more because it has much more weight and mass.
I thought as you do at first. But consider the following two scenarios:

a) Joe becomes "huge". This makes Joe 64x heavier than a normal Joe. The only contribution to damage is a +4 Strength, and a slightly greater weapon damage die.

b) Joe sits on the shoulders of a "large" copy of himself. Together, the Joes are 9x heavier than a normal Joe. With Spirited Charge, rider Joe deals 2x damage.

Eventhough Joe a) is 7x heavier than Joes b) combined, the damage of Joes b) scales much faster.

This leads me to think that the 2x damage from Spirited Charge is not a consequence of increased movement speed and mass, but technique. Which a warrior should be able to learn, without the mount.


One can get around the mount requirement by being a Centaur, although this is often problematic.
Check out the zelekhut in the SRD, it qualifies for feats as if it mounted combat due to its body style. [...] So play a centaur, bariaur, or tauric-template creature.
Good to know. However, the character I am playing is already made, and our group would like to reduce the number of non-human player characters to a minimum.