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Everynone
2013-05-14, 08:15 PM
So my friends and I just decided we'd start a gestalt campaign, so I posed the (probably not-so original) idea of introducing a villain I came up with a long time ago, a true neutral human named Omnibus. We would meet him only 3 times (once at 10th, 15th, and 20th), and have to beat him each time. At Level 10, he would be gestalted to posses 10 levels of every base 3.5 class. At Level 15, he would posses 15 levels of every base 3.5 class as well as 5 levels of every 10-level base 3.5 PrC. And at 20th, he would have 20 levels of every base 3.5 class, 10 levels of every 10-level base 3.5 PrC, and 5 levels of each 5-level base 3.5 PrC (I believe these are only Archmage, Hierophant, and Thaumaturgist). This guy is deliberately overpowered and very dangerous, but is he so much so that a party of 4 gestalted and relatively optimized characters couldn't beat him at equal levels? I'd really like to know, and I can give the characters if that matters. Any input would be appreciated. I'll also be showing this thread to my DM. Thanks!

Nettlekid
2013-05-14, 08:34 PM
Well if you're playing him well at all, of course he'd be unbeatable. He'd have the class features of a ferociously unoptimized level 110 character at 10th level, level 225 at 15th level, and like a level 360 character at 20th level. (I didn't actually go over the numbers in depth, so they may be off, but they'd be around that). And of course, you only need one or two. To be able to call yourself Wizard 20/Archmage 5 means you're stronger than most of the game right there. To then be a Wizard 20/Archmage 5 with full Cleric and Druid casting (and various boosts from Hierophant), high skills and all skills as class skills, full BAB (not that a Cleric couldn't get that anyway with Divine Power), FEATS everywhere from bonuses due to Fighter, Wizard, and Hierophant, and other miscellaneous little boosts is just unreasonable. For one, you wouldn't be a masterful blend of all classes, you would be a pumped up Wizard. It's basically impossible to kill a level 20 Wizard anyway, what with Astral Projection and Genesis. If you want them to win, you'll have to let them win, because there's nothing they could do better than you.

Everynone
2013-05-14, 10:17 PM
Well if you're playing him well at all, of course he'd be unbeatable. He'd have the class features of a ferociously unoptimized level 110 character at 10th level, level 225 at 15th level, and like a level 360 character at 20th level. (I didn't actually go over the numbers in depth, so they may be off, but they'd be around that). And of course, you only need one or two. To be able to call yourself Wizard 20/Archmage 5 means you're stronger than most of the game right there. To then be a Wizard 20/Archmage 5 with full Cleric and Druid casting (and various boosts from Hierophant), high skills and all skills as class skills, full BAB (not that a Cleric couldn't get that anyway with Divine Power), FEATS everywhere from bonuses due to Fighter, Wizard, and Hierophant, and other miscellaneous little boosts is just unreasonable. For one, you wouldn't be a masterful blend of all classes, you would be a pumped up Wizard. It's basically impossible to kill a level 20 Wizard anyway, what with Astral Projection and Genesis. If you want them to win, you'll have to let them win, because there's nothing they could do better than you.

Alright, noted. But he would be played as a balanced character, not focusing on any one class. Also, he would have force-balanced stats (even amounts of STR, INT and the like), if that changes anything. In what situation might a party be able to beat him?

Nettlekid
2013-05-14, 10:28 PM
It still depends greatly on what you mean by balanced play, because he only has so many actions available every turn. Is he going to cast a spell one turn, then next turn charge the enemy and attack with his greatsword, and then spend the next two turns hiding and setting up for a Sneak Attack? If that's the case then the party will beat him any turn he isn't doing wizardy things, because if they're high level gestalt and decently optimized then anyone operating on a melee-ish system is dead. If they have a charger who does Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack stuff, they'll be doing several hundred damage, and if he's not protected (by spells, most likely) then he's done for.

However, as I think you'll find shortly, he will be protected because he'll be using spells whenever he gets the chance. Because spells are better. If he has the option between using a full round to charge into battle and do 2d6+10 damage, or casting Wings of Flurry and dealing 20d6 (or more likely a solid 120, or 120+10d6) in a burst, and still have the time to move away, he'll be using the spell. And that's just talking straight damage, which everyone knows isn't the way that casters dominate battle. He can Forcecage the BSF, Feeblemind the caster, and Greater Blink to make himself largely immune to the rogue. If you don't want to make the guy an idiot, that's what he's going to be doing, just because it's the best option available. Otherwise he's not trying.

What are the party's builds?

Deffers
2013-05-14, 10:35 PM
I don't know what counts as base, but unless Dungeonscape's not base and yet you let one of your characters gestalt Factotum with a primary caster, yeah, they're dead.

And even then, they're only alive because of Surge of Inspiration/Time Stop/Celerity/FIRE EVERYTHIIIIIIIIIING.

Everynone
2013-05-14, 10:48 PM
It still depends greatly on what you mean by balanced play, because he only has so many actions available every turn. Is he going to cast a spell one turn, then next turn charge the enemy and attack with his greatsword, and then spend the next two turns hiding and setting up for a Sneak Attack? If that's the case then the party will beat him any turn he isn't doing wizardy things, because if they're high level gestalt and decently optimized then anyone operating on a melee-ish system is dead. If they have a charger who does Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack stuff, they'll be doing several hundred damage, and if he's not protected (by spells, most likely) then he's done for.

However, as I think you'll find shortly, he will be protected because he'll be using spells whenever he gets the chance. Because spells are better. If he has the option between using a full round to charge into battle and do 2d6+10 damage, or casting Wings of Flurry and dealing 20d6 (or more likely a solid 120, or 120+10d6) in a burst, and still have the time to move away, he'll be using the spell. And that's just talking straight damage, which everyone knows isn't the way that casters dominate battle. He can Forcecage the BSF, Feeblemind the caster, and Greater Blink to make himself largely immune to the rogue. If you don't want to make the guy an idiot, that's what he's going to be doing, just because it's the best option available. Otherwise he's not trying.

What are the party's builds?

There are 6 characters, and we will be operating with a party of 4. I tried to keep them as stereotypical as possible, and cover all the bases:

-Elven Druid/Ranger
-Human Psion/Monk
-Dwarven Cleric/Paladin
-Halfling Wizard/Rogue
-Gnomish Sorcerer/Bard
-Orcish Barbarian/Fighter (with some spell from the Druid/Ranger list; casts like a Ranger, no animal companion)

Each character has starting stats of 18:16:14:12:10:10, and each, except the Orc, has the 18 as they're casting stat, the other two mental stats as 10, and the 16:14:12 as some combination of the physical stats. They will be maxing out the 18 as they level up (the Halfling maxes INT, the Dwarf maxes WIS, the Gnome maxes CHA and so on). The two PCs will be the first two characters listed, so the last four will be the ones we choose from to form the rest of the party.