Book fight! Legend of Drizzt vs Lord of the Rings!

[gurgleflep]

I'll be posting this in the 3.5 forums as well so that I have differing opinions on this:

Okay, which team would win between the Companions of the Hall:
Drizzt, Wulfgar, Bruenor, Catti-Brie, Regis, and Guenhwyvar
and the Fellowship of the Ring:
Aragorn, Legolas, Gimili, Boromir, Merry, Pippin, Frodo, Sam and Gandalf (the Gray, the fellowship was whole (nobody had died nor were they split up) when he was gray).

The teams are uneven seeing as the Companions don't have a spellcaster of any sort and their size is a bit smaller, so lets use Harkel Harpel.

1.) Team versus team in different locations - hilly wilderness, a flat prarie, cave system (appropriately lit).
2.) Dungeon crawl - goblins, orcs, hobgoblins and one giant at the end of the cave; plenty of traps; loot!

I'll be clarifying any points and modifying this as the post goes on so that I may get the best answers.

Edit: Specified which Gandalf and explained why.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm kind of leaning for the team with the demigod/embodied angel/CR20 Solar included in their roster, in both cases...:smallcool:

[gurgleflep]

I'm kind of leaning for the team with the demigod/embodied angel/CR20 Solar included in their roster, in both cases...:smallcool:

Who would that/they be :smallconfused:?

[Kitten Champion]

Gandalf. Whose powers are pretty vague. If it weren't for him I'd give it to Salvatore's creations.

[oblivion6]

Who would that/they be :smallconfused:?

Thats Gandalf. He is a Maia, which are essentially demigods.

Lets see...This is a tough question...I need to think on the team fight. Dungeon crawl, though? I must say the Companions of the Hall.

Edit: and ninja'd by Kitten Champion.

[gurgleflep]

Gandalf. Whose powers are pretty vague. If it weren't for him I'd give it to Salvatore's creations.


Thats Gandalf. He is a Maia, which are essentially demigods.

Lets see...This is a tough question...I need to think on the team fight. Dungeon crawl, though? I must say the Companions of the Hall.

Edit: and ninja'd by Kitten Champion.

So... should I remove him from the list? If he's basically a demigod, he kinda throws everything in his teams favor.

[oblivion6]

Well, What exactly he is capable of is only speculation as far as I know. Tolkien wasn't very specific on how powerful he actually is as far as I know. He is supposedly one of the most powerful beings in existence, but you never really see him do anything flashy or extraordinary.

[Anteros]

People like to pretend like he's all powerful, but in the books he's actually very weak. Didn't he get chased up a tree by a group of ordinary worgs? Hardly demigod behavior.

The Drizzt team wins in a curbstomp. Honestly Drizzt alone might be able to solo the whole group.

[oblivion6]

Didn't he get chased up a tree by a group of ordinary worgs?

I don't recall that, but then again, it has been a long time since I read the books.

You might be thinking of a similiar scene in the Hobbit? That wasn't Gandalf. It was his companions.

[Tyrant]

I'm going with team Drizzt. Gandalf's powers are quite vague and even the more flashy movies didn't do much with him. Even though this particular group is on the lower end, D&D characters are usually on another level compared to LotR folk. They have at least 2 fairly potent magic weapons between them (Aegis Fang and Catt's bow) not counting Guenhwyvar, and not including Drizzt's schimitars (which I don't see as that powerful). Drizzt also has unnatural agility (or is it speed?) and Regis has the Ruby Pendant.

The other side has 4 dead weights in the form of the Hobbits, 1 awesome ranged guy, and 3 guys that are probably going to get murdered up close. Then they have Gandalf with his vague abilities.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't recall that, but then again, it has been a long time since I read the books.

You might be thinking of a similiar scene in the Hobbit? That wasn't Gandalf. It was his companions.

Gandalf was with them at the time.


Really Gandalf is the only reason why this isn't an instant win for the Companions of the Hall. And while he's stated to be on demi-god levels we never see very much. Even then Drizzit and his team have taken out opponents who are in the 18-21 lv range. So I'll still give it to them.


Drizzit alone will massacre any or all of the melee fighters of the Fellowship. Legolas is a threat, but Wulfgar and Cattibre can at least keep him pinned down. Bruenor is another front line fighter to speed things up. Regis is useless unless he manages to snag Boromier with his amulet. Guenhwyvar would likely get taken out by Aragon or Gimli, but might manage a sneak attack.

[snoopy13a]

I don't recall that, but then again, it has been a long time since I read the books.

You might be thinking of a similiar scene in the Hobbit? That wasn't Gandalf. It was his companions.

It was Gandalf up in the trees along with the dwarves and Bilbo.

Quoting Tolkien,


Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped. (emphasis added)

[Sith_Happens]

IIRC, the deal with the Wizards in LotR is that their powers are extremely constrained while in their human-ish forms, because their mission in Middle-earth is that of advisors.

[Tengu_temp]

Gandalf was just a human wizard when Tolkien wrote the Hobbit. He was retconned into being a Maya when LotR came around and more of the setting got fleshed out. I doubt he'd get chased around by a pack of wolves if he was a godlike being from the start.


IIRC, the deal with the Wizards in LotR is that their powers are extremely constrained while in their human-ish forms, because their mission in Middle-earth is that of advisors.

Or more that magic in Middle-Earth is much more powerful, but also much more subtle, than DND's fireballs and magic missiles.

[BWR]

Old (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?300886-Gandalf-was-only-a-Fifth-Level-Magic-User!), but still a valid point.

Maybe magic and heroes in ME are generally weaker than D&D.
Blasphemy, I know, but that's the general impression you get comparing the two.
Saying the Istari are Maia, demigods, therefor super-powerful doesn't really help since apart from the Valar, the power levels of all beings are only measured against others in the same world, not based on things that one can measure objectivly.
If we had Gandalf blowing up mountain tops we could compare that to how big a Fireball one needed to blow one up in FR.
But what we get is people fighting against orcs (are orcs as dangerous in ME as in FR?), Gandalf casting a few spells that can be done by almost any low-level caster in D&D, hobbits that can sneak a bit.
On the other hand you have people with magical returning warhammers, super-swords and speed movement, magical bow and arrows that punch through anything, etc.

I know which of the worlds is better created, written and more fun to read, and I know which I'd back in fight.

[Tengu_temp]

Old (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?300886-Gandalf-was-only-a-Fifth-Level-Magic-User!), but still a valid point.


No, it's bull. It looks at Middle-Earth magic through a DND prism, when they work under different principles. In DND, magic is a tool - point a finger, recite incantation, fireball shoots. Middle-Earth magic has less impressive immediate effects, but it's all about subtle, large-scale and long-term effects. Most obvious example: look how battles in LotR look like when wizards are present, especially if they're on both sides. There's no throwing around magic missiles, but their sole presence brings valor to their allies and weakens their enemies, and when two spellcasters fight, it's also a struggle between their magic to see whose will come on top. In a small-scale fight, it might make much less of an impact, but it actually makes much more of a difference when it comes to turning the tides of a battle.

And this is not an uncommon way of portraying magic, at least until DND came and turned it all into standardized, instant spells.

[BWR]

I'm still waiting for actual quotes to show this power. Vague statements that "they could do more but choose not two" and "the books say X was powerful but we never actually see it" don't exactly do much to prove a point.
If you want to argue about who is more powerful, you have to be able to point to actual events that can show power more or less objectively.

D&D books tend to show a lot more than Tolkien's.

[Traab]

The problem is, while gandalf is supposed to be the living embodiment of all that is badass wizardry, he never ever uses it. The one and only time he ever truly kicked ass in a magical way was soloing a balrog. Oh, and he put shiny light into the sky to scare off the nazgul mounts once or twice. Other than that, he was kind of sad. All of my money goes on drizzt and crew. I dont think burning pinecones will be enough to carry the day. If you REALLY want to make it epic caster versus epic caster, keep harpell, give drizzt Cadderly. Sure he is a cleric, not a wizard, but he can dish out some serious magical hurting in his prime. And a healer on his level would just be hilariously overpowered in this fight. Yeah aragorn, go suck on some athelas to fix the gaping chest wound in gimli, cadderly here will just make the matching wound he gave bruenor go away.

[Frozen_Feet]

Uh, Gandalf was one of the biggest inspirations behind early D&D wizards. It's pretty evident when you look at invidual spells.

In terms of D&D magic, Gandalf uses at least Shatter, Ventriloquism, Pyrotechnics, Lightning Bolt, Light, Summon Monster (the eagles, remember?), Hold Portal and Fire Seeds. The movies add Telekinesis to the mix. Gandalf is also an expert swordsman and has quite a bit of hitpoints, as seen in how he prefers to fight with Glamdring and the battle with Balrog. He might not be a particularly high level Wizard, but he's certainly above 5th level. In earlier editions, he could've comfortably been statted as Fighter 10 /Magic-user 10 etc.

But beyond that, Aragorn, Legolas, Boromir and Gimli are all known for being able to hew through dozens of orcs in course of a battle. They are no slouches in terms of close combat. I've only read a few of Drizzt books, but from what I've seen, the teams are pretty much equal in terms of martial arts. The Hobbits are mostly there to get in the way, though.

[BWR]

How powerful are ME orcs? If they are anything like D&D orcs, just about any 5th level melee or ranged build could go through dozens of orcs at 5th level.
Also, Gandalf didn't call the eagles in the Hobbit, and I'm pretty sure he didn't call them in LOTR. It's been a while since I read the books so I could be mistaken. In any case, calling the eagles wouild not be Summon Monster, but more like a Sending.

[khoregate]

to give a comparison we the maia here are a few examples of Maia


Sauron,,,

ALL balrogs are fire maia

All the Istari are Maia

When gandalf returns as gandalf the White he has had some of his conraints lifted from him in order for him to take on Both Saruman and Sauron

oh and I seem to remember Galdriels mommie was a River Maia

[Traab]

How powerful are ME orcs? If they are anything like D&D orcs, just about any 5th level melee or ranged build could go through dozens of orcs at 5th level.
Also, Gandalf didn't call the eagles in the Hobbit, and I'm pretty sure he didn't call them in LOTR. It's been a while since I read the books so I could be mistaken. In any case, calling the eagles wouild not be Summon Monster, but more like a Sending.

Yeah he didnt summon squat, the eagles and he were sort of friends and allies, (I think he saved the eagle king once or something) and they came to lend a hand. As for preferring to fight with glamdring, thats because he flat out isnt allowed to use any of his kickass magic except under very specific scenarios. Not because he prefers to be all john rambo about his fights.

[Aotrs Commander]

Of course, if we want to use the MERP/RM takes on the Fellowship (Rolemaster is muuuuch better suited to modelling ME than D&D is - though even I will admit it's not exactly perfect) and the Fellowship would mop the floor with the other guys - though to be fair, by "Fellowship" I mean "Gandalf", because while Aragorn was about level 20 (which is not that far off comparable to level 20 in D&D, though RM to D&D is a poor analogue), Gandalf was like about level 60...!




How powerful are ME orcs? If they are anything like D&D orcs, just about any 5th level melee or ranged build could go through dozens of orcs at 5th level.

How long is a piece of string?

What level Orcs?

If you want to compare the bestiary stock entries for Orcs in then MERP/RM Orcs, for example, average much higher than the 1st level warriors in the MM around 3rd to 5th sort of level (and sometimes higher).

[gurgleflep]

Okay, so make things a bit more fair, I've specified which Gandalf - we're going with gray. When he was gray, the Fellowship was still whole (nobody had died, nor did they split the party) and he had a bit more of a restraint on his magic keeping him from doing a TPK in combat.

Also, would it be fair to have Cadderly and his magics up against Gandalf the White and his?

[Traab]

Its honestly hard to say, with gandalf, outside of the balrog incident, all we have is word of god that he is powerful, with no real benchmark for measuring it. Cadderly is insanely powerful, with enough wildly varied magic to do virtually anything and do it well. At one point he and his friends faced an ancient dragon and he was able to deage it to a young adult maybe more. Im not even sure how far he nerfed the CR on that fight. That was AFTER he mind controlled it and convinced him to carry his party across half a mountain range lengthwise.

[Ozfer]

When discussing Gandalf's powers, people always seem to forget the scene after Rivendell, and before the attempted crossing of Caradhras. The Fellowship is assaulted by Wargs, and when surrounded, Gandalf incinerates the entire hill they are standing on, trees and all, without harming any of his allies. Also, Legolas' arrow is lit on fire mid-flight.

Pretty dang cool.

[Eldan]

The problem is, Middle Earth magic is different. In the Silmarilion, the Maia sink continents, throw up mountains, extinguish the sun, veil entire countries or create dragons. But they never seem to do much of that in battle. The closest we get is probably Morgoth singing at someone until he's crushed by despair.

[Salbazier]

Yeah he didnt summon squat,...

Nope, he did summon the eagles. You know, summon. 'Authoritatively or urgently call on (someone) to be present'. :smalltongue:


When discussing Gandalf's powers, people always seem to forget the scene after Rivendell, and before the attempted crossing of Caradhras. The Fellowship is assaulted by Wargs, and when surrounded, Gandalf incinerates the entire hill they are standing on, trees and all, without harming any of his allies. Also, Legolas' arrow is lit on fire mid-flight.

Pretty dang cool.

There's also the scene right before Rivendell, where Elrond and Gandalf (and Glorfindel?) stop the Ringwariths from crossing. I need to read the book again. It's been a while but I seem to remember Gandalf doing some impressive stuff with fire and something like conjured horseman.


The problem is, Middle Earth magic is different. In the Silmarilion, the Maia sink continents, throw up mountains, extinguish the sun, veil entire countries or create dragons. But they never seem to do much of that in battle. The closest we get is probably Morgoth singing at someone until he's crushed by despair.

Morgoth and again-forgot-who's-his-name-that-Noldor-High-King have pretty impressive fight thought. Also, the destruction made by dragons IIRC are pretty descriptive.

Magic in Middle-Earth does have tendency to be subtle and appear low powered, but once they unleash the big guns, mountains got shattered. Which make sense, I guess.

[Ursus the Grim]

Well, if we're not allowing Gandalf to win (and by extension the Fellowship) on account of being a demigod, and if Word of God isn't enough to confirm a power level, I think he still easily has enough to go toe-to-toe with Cadderly.

I mean, he became the White once the powers that be decided he could take off one (but not both) of his kid gloves. He guided the Fellowship towards victory because he was basically told not to do everything for them.

But if we still want flashy examples, its not all fireworks.

Call Lightning
Mass Blindness
Globe of Invulnerability? (Enough to shield from both the Balrog and Saruman's spells)
Fire Seeds (Among other fire spells)
Earthquake/Circle of Death (Shockwave that crumbles the bridge in Moria and instagibs masses of units in the games I think)

And most of that was done as the Grey. Those spells aren't exactly on part with 21 Wizard, to be fair, but its hardly the extent of his power.

[Anteros]

Gandalf had to go for help to save Helms Deep from the Orcs. Cadderly would have just soloed the entire lot. Cadderly would have walked into Morder, blasted the gates from their hinges, soloed the entire army of orcs, and ended the thing. Of course, that's assuming he doesn't just use his magic to move the ring there instantly and circumvent all this silliness.

It's not a comparable power scale. Again, he got chased up a tree by weakling enemies who would have killed him had it not been for outside help. Vague implications that a character might be more powerful, and directly contradicting information from the books by stating "but the author may have changed his mind" is not a valid counter argument for direct evidence from the books.

[Ursus the Grim]

It's not a comparable power scale. Again, he got chased up a tree by weakling enemies who would have killed him had it not been for outside help. Vague implications that a character might be more powerful, and directly contradicting information from the books by stating "but the author may have changed his mind" is not a valid counter argument for direct evidence from the books.

Pretty sure its called a retcon, honestly.

Edit: Okay. Here. The Maiar shaped Middle Earth. Therefore, Maiar as a race generally belong to the tier of reality warpers. Gandalf is a Maiar. Regardless of what he does or does not do in the books, you can't dispute that.

Just because I run from an evil squirrel with a knife doesn't mean I couldn't kick it halfway across the room. Especially if my race (humans) are known to be on a power level above the average squirrel with a knife.

[Bastian Weaver]

Ahem. Gandalf didn't "have to" go for help. His task was to help the people of Middle Earth to fight against Sauron. Would you like to know why?
That's because the last time the Ainur, Olorin's (Gandalf's) people, went to war themselves, they pretty much sunk half a continent.
And that's all I'd like to say on that topic, mostly because I find Salvatore's writing to be rather overrated.

[Anteros]

Pretty sure its called a retcon, honestly.

Edit: Okay. Here. The Maiar shaped Middle Earth. Therefore, Maiar as a race generally belong to the tier of reality warpers. Gandalf is a Maiar. Regardless of what he does or does not do in the books, you can't dispute that.

Just because I run from an evil squirrel with a knife doesn't mean I couldn't kick it halfway across the room. Especially if my race (humans) are known to be on a power level above the average squirrel with a knife.

A "retcon" is where the author decides to change his mind about something he already wrote and thus writes a new canon. A "retcon" is not when fanboys directly contradict what is in the books because "nah dude, the author totally could have changed his mind after he wrote all those scenes." If there was a scene of Gandalf being super-powerful after that one I would agree that it's a possibility. As it is he's decidedly mediocre throughout the entire books. His one big accomplishment is stale-mating a Balrog, and he died to do it.

The fact that other members of his race are powerful does not prove that he is. There are humans out there who can deadlift 1000lbs. Can you? I don't know you so maybe you can. However, if I repeatedly see you in the gym struggling to lift the 45lb dumbbells I'm not going to believe you when you tell me "nah man, I could have totally lifted way more than that...I just didn't want to" in order to support some silly argument.

Evidence is more important than what you "think the author might have intended after he possibly may have changed his mind about the things he wrote."


Ahem. Gandalf didn't "have to" go for help. His task was to help the people of Middle Earth to fight against Sauron. Would you like to know why?
That's because the last time the Ainur, Olorin's (Gandalf's) people, went to war themselves, they pretty much sunk half a continent.
And that's all I'd like to say on that topic, mostly because I find Salvatore's writing to be rather overrated.

Is it possible to be overrated when you're widely considered to be terrible?

[smellie_hippie]

Ahem. Gandalf didn't "have to" go for help. His task was to help the people of Middle Earth to fight against Sauron. Would you like to know why?
That's because the last time the Ainur, Olorin's (Gandalf's) people, went to war themselves, they pretty much sunk half a continent.
And that's all I'd like to say on that topic, mostly because I find Salvatore's writing to be rather overrated.

Pretty much this.

Driz'zt dances with his scimitars. That's nice. It's a friggin action book.

Now please understand this. I grew up with Fellowship, and I thoroughly enjoyed the Icewind Dale Trilogy. I ate them up, and have had to replace them all becasue they were so well loved...

Gandalf is a power, because he was able to save ME by encouraging the least likely of heroes to stand up against an unimaginable foe. Driz'zt can carve up a giant like a side of beef, and yes this has been well documented. Wulfgar took out a dragon (almost solo) early in his career. These are impressive, but they had to slug it out by hand.

Gandalf helped a crew of some misfit dwarves kill a legendary old dragon (Yes Bard shot him, but he still motivated Thorin and co to go in the first place) and he didn't lift a finger.

If Gandalf the Gray chose to lift a finger... Salvatore's crew would be wiped out.

Now I think I want to go read that series again! :smallamused:

[Bastian Weaver]

The fact that other members of his race are powerful does not prove that he is. There are humans out there who can deadlift 1000lbs. Can you? I don't know you so maybe you can. However, if I repeatedly see you in the gym struggling to lift the 45lb dumbbells I'm not going to believe you when you tell me "nah man, I could have totally lifted way more than that...I just didn't want to" in order to support some silly argument.


It's not really a valid comparison. All the Maiar are much more powerful than mortals, that's a known fact.
Now, if there was a heavy rock, and it needed to be removed from the road, and you could do that, no problem - bang, and it's done, but you knew that there were more rocks around, and I'm strong enough to remove the rock, but I have my doubts about my own strength, and you're really not going to go all the way with me just to remove rocks from my path - would it be so surprising if you said "Ugh... phew. Man, this rock sure is too heavy for me. Maybe we can move it together! Hey, it worked!" And I say "Wow, I think I could've done it by myself, actually!", and you say "I suppose you could!" with a chuckle.
That's what Gandalf does.





Is it possible to be overrated when you're widely considered to be terrible?

Two words.
Dan Brown.
Nuff said.

[Anteros]

The books literally say that the goblins and wargs would have killed him. He constantly struggles with low tier enemies like orcs throughout the books. He's not just pretending to be mortal for the sake of pretending.

[Bastian Weaver]

Actually, no, it doesn't. It says that he would kill himself - that is, destroy his human body - saving the dwarves from the goblins and wolves.
Which isn't even a big thing, because to Maiar, bodies are kind of like clothes.

[Starbuck_II]

Actually, no, it doesn't. It says that he would kill himself - that is, destroy his human body - saving the dwarves from the goblins and wolves.
Which isn't even a big thing, because to Maiar, bodies are kind of like clothes.

Drizzt killed a balor without dying. Gandalf died killing his.

[Bastian Weaver]

Drizzt killed a balor without dying. Gandalf died killing his.

Primo, let's not confuse balor and Balrog, shall we?
Second, if Drizzt died, it would be curtains for him. Curtains!
For Gandalf, like I said, it was like tearing up a suit. So he got a new one. White one.
And I suppose he also wanted to keep the battle between the two Maiar away from the rest of the Fellowship, hence all the "dropping down the bottomless chasm" thing. Maybe Aragorn would survive witnessing such a battle. All the others, probably not.

[Ursus the Grim]

Primo, let's not confuse balor and Balrog, shall we?
Second, if Drizzt died, it would be curtains for him. Curtains!
For Gandalf, like I said, it was like tearing up a suit. So he got a new one. White one.
And I suppose he also wanted to keep the battle between the two Maiar away from the rest of the Fellowship, hence all the "dropping down the bottomless chasm" thing. Maybe Aragorn would survive witnessing such a battle. All the others, probably not.

A few thoughts occur to me on this point.

One, the fall alone would prove fatal for many a character.

Two, Mr. Grey not only dukes it out with his balrog, but does so using primarily martial ability. He is effectively a venerable old man with poor base attack and d4 hit die. He kills his balrog. Yes, he "dies" and comes back. Under his own power. Not only does he not lose a level, but he gains one. In badass.

I don't even like Tolkien all that much. But Gandalf is more than some cheap conjurer of tricks.

[Anteros]

It says it would be "the end of him". That implied more than a mild inconvenience like changing a suit.

Also when he died, it said that he was sent back. It's not as if he came back under his own power.

[Forum Explorer]

Alright if Gandalf has a lot of potential power but he can only use a tiny fraction of it, then from the perspective of the fight he only has that tiny fraction. It's a classic Vs arguement failure where you are using what a character could do, but is never actually shown to do.

So Gandalf's presence doesn't mean an instant win for the Fellowship, because it never means an instant win for the Fellowship. Take the Warg example, Gandalf might personally have been fine (well been reincarnated or however it works), but all of the Dwarves would have died.

And yes having your body destroyed and your allies killed pretty much always seems to be considered a loss by these threads. Same thing if Gandalf and the Fellowship just ran away.

So we know Gandalf is roughly equal to a Balrog.

Now a balor is based off a Balrog, and Drizzit basically soloed his without dying. And then beat it again when it returned with a whole mini army of deamons and a powerful artifact.

Besides that their team has killed multiple dragons, and archwizards with their entire armies backing them up. This seems to put them pretty far out of the mortals in Lord of the Rings which just leaves Gandalf, who tends to behave as a mid level caster at best, while the Companions of the Hall are used to fighting near epic casters.

[grolim]

Actually, wouldn't Guen be able to solo many of the fellowship? As a magical and astral being only the ones with enchanted weapons or using magic should be able to harm her in any meaningful way.

[Eldan]

Half the fellowship has magical swords, though. Gandalf, Aragorn and three of the hobbits.

[DeusMortuusEst]

The Fellowship wins. They have the better writer.

[Ursus the Grim]

stuff

See, this man makes good points. I still think Mr. Grey is the most powerful, but you give good reasons for why it doesn't matter.

And you don't sound like an obnoxious fanboy in the process. Kudos.

[Sotharsyl]

On Gandalf if he chooses to fight as wizard he is toast because he is merely a NPC wizard who is there to help the story, while WhatSHisName is built like a PC wizard.

On the other hand, if Gandalf chooses to fight like a god/angel/etc well team Lotr wins and it's a short and not fun fight.

I remember posting a vs threads about drow from the FR vs elves in Lotr the consensus was if Tolkien's elves vaguely defined magic powers were really really awesome they insta-win if you go by the movies books where they're really good with bows ???

[Otomodachi]

There's only one way to do it- take it to the big board and make some hypothetical scenarios.

I can tell you one thing- if the fight came to "They meet on a neutral plane somewhere and have to fight" the ending will be "Gandalf solos everyone while the rest go home and then shows up later to prank someone after sending the Companions home."

[Lord Raziere]

You are all wrong.

They meet, no one has any problem with Drizzt since the fellowship only hates orcs.

they then sing, dance, and feast the night away while the two wizards exchange frivolous magic and be friends afterwards.

they then go their separate ways with nobody being hurt.

the end. because there is no reason for these people to fight each other.

[Forum Explorer]

See, this man makes good points. I still think Mr. Grey is the most powerful, but you give good reasons for why it doesn't matter.

And you don't sound like an obnoxious fanboy in the process. Kudos.

Thanks! :smallsmile:

[gurgleflep]

You are all wrong.

They meet, no one has any problem with Drizzt since the fellowship only hates orcs.

they then sing, dance, and feast the night away while the two wizards exchange frivolous magic and be friends afterwards.

they then go their separate ways with nobody being hurt.

the end. because there is no reason for these people to fight each other.

Between the two versions of this thread, you're the only one who actually posted this :smallbiggrin:
That's my personal thought on it as well, but I wanted to know which team (with well thought out logic and explanations) would win.

[grolim]

Either that or...they find an army of orcs and decide that one team will start killing into the middle from the right while the other starts from the left. The team that gets to the middle first or kills the most buys drinks that evening.

[Gnoman]

Half the fellowship has magical swords, though. Gandalf, Aragorn and three of the hobbits.

All four. Frodo had the same sort of sword as the other three from the Barrows (Bree in the film) to Weathertop, and carried Sting afterward. Sting has the same evidence of magic that Orcrist and Glamdring show (Namely, glowing blue when orcs are present). The only weapons not explicitly shown to carry magic are Legolas's bow and knives, Gimli's axe, and Boromir's sword.

[Traab]

All four. Frodo had the same sort of sword as the other three from the Barrows (Bree in the film) to Weathertop, and carried Sting afterward. Sting has the same evidence of magic that Orcrist and Glamdring show (Namely, glowing blue when orcs are present). The only weapons not explicitly shown to carry magic are Legolas's bow and knives, Gimli's axe, and Boromir's sword.

Aragorn only has a sword that can even be considered potentially magical when he gets anduril. And even then aside from elrond telling him it will never be broken or something along those lines, we have no real proof of it being magical. Just really well made.

[russdm]

Neither team wins. They have not reason to fight each other, and Drizzt even volunteers to help the Fellowship get ring to mordor. Drizzt summons Guen and takes the ring, while his friends just drinks with the fellowship. After dropping the ring into mt. Doom, Drizzt returns and swaps stories with Legolas.

Seriously some comments regarding problems:

Drizzt would be seen as just some dark elf to the Fellowship. He is not some enemy because there are drow in ME. Also, he would get along really well with Legolas and Gimli, because he is already friends with Bruenor, a dwarf. The two dwarves say hi and engage in a drinking contest; Aragorn/Boromir chat up Cattie; while Regis talks shop with the four hobbits.

The hobbits are not thieves, but just chumps. None of them actually have any thieving skills. In fact, no one in the fellowship can deal with traps. As for numbers, that does really mean a lot because the hobbits aren't warriors only 4 are: Gimli, Aragorn, Legolas, and Boromir. Gandalf can swing his sword well, but it means half the fellowship is not useful in combat.

Also, there is no precedent or objective for them to fight over. Drizzt and Co would end up helping the fellowship in their quest.

[zimmerwald1915]

All four. Frodo had the same sort of sword as the other three from the Barrows (Bree in the film) to Weathertop, and carried Sting afterward. Sting has the same evidence of magic that Orcrist and Glamdring show (Namely, glowing blue when orcs are present). The only weapons not explicitly shown to carry magic are Legolas's bow and knives, Gimli's axe, and Boromir's sword.
The blue color only appears in the movies. In the books Orcrist, Glamdring, and Sting glow white. This is important because...


Aragorn only has a sword that can even be considered potentially magical when he gets anduril. And even then aside from elrond telling him it will never be broken or something along those lines, we have no real proof of it being magical. Just really well made.
"The sword of Elendil filled Orcs and Men with fear, for it shone with the light of the sun and of the moon, and it was named Narsil". Narsil's name is a compound of "fire" and "white light" as well as a reference to the Sun and the Moon, and it apparently glowed all the time and not in response to Orcish proximity. This light departed the sword when it broke and returned when it was reforged. If glowing is a marker of magic in Middle-Earth, then Anduril is as magical as Orcrist, Glamdring, and Sting, though possibly not in the same way.

Also, I believe it's the scabbard that Galadriel gives Aragorn that ensured that Anduril would never break unless he did.


Drizzt would be seen as just some dark elf to the Fellowship. He is not some enemy because there are drow in ME.
There are "dark elves" in Middle Earth. Legolas and his people, and most of the common folk of Lorien are such (though they're mostly called "sylvan elves"). There are no drow as we know them from FR - their closest analogue would probably be ME!orcs!


None of them actually have any thieving skills.
Farmer Maggot would disagree :smalltongue:

[Traab]

Bah, I dont think running into a field, ganking some carrots, and running for your life counts for real thieving skills. At least bilbo started to pick up the trade on his journey, though he really only had one moment of awesome theft, and that was freeing the dorfs from the elves. I dont count taking the cup from smaug as real thievery. It was nothing more complex than a smash grab and sprint. With the elves in mirkwood bilbo was upgraded to a full scale rogue. Picking pockets, sneaking around unseen, arranging a fairly massive secret prison break. Pure master rogue behavior.

As for aragorns sword, meh, its been so many years im not surprised I forgot that blurb. After all, its not like it played much of a role that I can remember. And anyways, like I said, he didnt exactly start out his travels with it anyways. He had a standard sword till whatever point he got it in the book. Again, i forget.

[Starwulf]

I'm kind of leaning for the team with the demigod/embodied angel/CR20 Solar included in their roster, in both cases...:smallcool:

Thing is, as of The Ghost King, Cattie-Brie Is a Demi-goddess herself, or so it kind of appears. However, my knowledge does not extend past the first book in the Neverwinter Series by Salvatore, so what I've read is quite likely not the full story, and I may have made false assumptions based on the information I have at hand so far.

[Anteros]

Thing is, as of The Ghost King, Cattie-Brie Is a Demi-goddess herself, or so it kind of appears. However, my knowledge does not extend past the first book in the Neverwinter Series by Salvatore, so what I've read is quite likely not the full story, and I may have made false assumptions based on the information I have at hand so far.

Hey, that's just as concrete as any evidence we have of Gandalf's power.

[Kyberwulf]

Is there any reason why Elminster wasn't put with Drizz't and his crew?

[oblivion6]

Because(Praise Lolth!) Elminster is not a Companion of the Hall.

[Starwulf]

Is there any reason why Elminster wasn't put with Drizz't and his crew?

Elminster has NEVER been associated with Drizzt, in any story. I don't even think Drizzt has been referenced in any of the many stories involving Elminster. I know Drizzt himself has referenced Elminster several times, but never on a personal level/note. If anything for this match-up, Alustriel of Silverymoon should be added to Drizzt's team, not Elminster(She is one of the Seven Sisters, and trained/raised by Elminster himself, so she's certainly got her fair share of power).

Also, it would depend on what era you are pulling from. In 4E, Elminster has been virtually powerless/non-existent, though I do believe that's changed in several of the more recent books. Couldn't really pull from 4E anyways though, as Wulfgar disappeared at the end of the Dwarf/Orc war and was never seen again. Cattie-Brie as I referenced before is possibly/likely a Demi-goddess, albeit trapped inside of a pocket realm due to the spellplague, Regis isDead Bruenor is Dead. Sooo..yeah. It would have to be from 3E, and they never had any cross-over in that time period.

[zimmerwald1915]

Bah, I dont think running into a field, ganking some carrots, and running for your life counts for real thieving skills.
T'was mushrooms, my good man, mushrooms, and Frodo got away three times before he was caught. :smalltongue:


And anyways, like I said, he didnt exactly start out his travels with it anyways. He had a standard sword till whatever point he got it in the book. Again, i forget.
He carried the broken sword, and no other weapon (unless you count the makeshift torches he used at Weathertop and the Ford of Bruinen), around with him until after the Council of Elrond, at which point the sword was reforged. He then carried it, and no other weapon, for the rest of the books.

[oblivion6]

possibly/likely a Demi-goddess, albeit trapped inside of a pocket realm due to the spellplague, Regis isDead Bruenor is Dead.

Depressing isn't it? I cried every single time.

[Starwulf]

Depressing isn't it? I cried every single time.

I am man enough to admit I did as well ><

[dehro]

Its honestly hard to say, with gandalf, outside of the balrog incident, all we have is word of god that he is powerful,

this made me laugh.. I thought that word of god was pretty much the ultimate authority, not "meh, he's saying so, but why should we believe him?"

so, my first reaction when I read the title to this thread was
"Imma go pick my hardcover edition of the lord of the rings and smack this unbeliever around the face with it"

then I read the thread and now I'm not going to be so hard on you anymore.

Gandalf is a trick card any way you put it. he is plotwise forbidden to engage in direct confrontations with the powers he's charged of defeating.. this means that he cannot don an armor and walk up to the black gates of Moria, trash them and spank Sauron's disembodies behind until he makes him cry.
there are multiple indications that tell us he might just be able to do that:
he defeats the Balrog, the only opponent in his league other than Sauron.. an opponent who has an advantage over Sauron, namely having an actual body and not having locked most of his strength away in a silly trinket.
his body is merely there to be looked at and interact with the locals. he doesn't actually need it and it isn't even the first one he's "worn".
So.. do the same rules of "no direct intervention" apply to him in this confrontation? if so, he's being treated unfairly and can probably be taken down by a serious magic wielder with some melee support of the highest order. if not, there is simply no telling what he could do to Drizzt and his buddies. Melian, another of his race, managed to shroud her entire kingdom with a protective spell simply by wanting it so.. Sauron is yet another of his race and we all know the scope of powers he wielded over the millennia.
more importantly, Gandalf wasn't born in a d&d context and has no numbers attached to a character sheet the way most of Salvatore's creatures do...which makes comparison really difficult.
this is also the case of Aragorn who was the greatest king of his day, a healer, the leader of the rangers and their champion, groomed for battle by the best teachers in his universe and as far as we can tell, undefeated in battle... but we also never see him square off directly with gods or dragons or somesuch, which again makes it hard to quantify just how badass he was...which is largely understated in terms of military prowess.
in other words, I am tempted to just out of hand say that Team Tolkien beats the crap out of Team Salvatore mainly thanks to Gandalf, but that would be unfair and fanboyish.

[Traab]

What I meant by "only word of god" is that all we have is, "Oh yeah, he is super duper strong" but only one real example of it. Whereas with people like cadderly, you get numerous examples of his power level and abilities, its not just, "Sure 99% of the time he is blowing fancy smoke rings and igniting pinecones, but trust me, he is badass." So thats why I generally vote against him, because he is like alucard. It doesnt matter how freaking powerful he CAN be, if noone ever lets him unlock his seal and USE it.

[zimmerwald1915]

his body is merely there to be looked at and interact with the locals. he doesn't actually need it and it isn't even the first one he's "worn".
Small nitpick, but the Istari seem to have operated under different rules, so to speak, than other Maiar do when they wear incarnate bodies. Normally, you're right, a Maia wears a form like clothing, and, depending on how powerful they are, can make many forms and change between them. Their spirit selves may sometimes be diminished when their bodies are destroyed by others, depending on how much of themselves and how much effort they put into creating their bodies, but as divine personages they cannot be killed in any meaningful sense.

We see three Maiar "die", or come close to it, in Lord of the Rings: Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron (c'mon, I don't think we have to worry about spoilers here). When Sauron "dies" a great black shadow is depicted rising up out of Mordor, looking westward with malice, and dissipating. However, we know that Sauron didn't "die" as in "cease to exist". Gandalf in The Last Debate tells us that if the Ring is dropped into the Fire, Sauron will still out there, he'll just so unbelievably wounded and diminished that he won't be able to incarnate a body or influence others again. Something similar happens when Sarumon dies. A gray mist, we are told, rose from the ground, hung in the air like a cloud, seeming to look plaintively west, and then dissipating.

Gandalf himself, however, did actually die when his body did, and not just in the sense that he went back to Valinor for a spell the way the movies imply. He actually left the circles of the World and came before Eru, the way Mortal Men do. Normally Ainur can't do that: those who chose to enter the world are bound do it unless, like Morgoth, the Valar force them out. When he was "sent back", it was Eru that did that, not Manwe or some other Vala, or even the collective. This implies a couple of things.

Gandalf really was, from the time he incarnated as such until the time he died and was reborn as Gandalf the White, a mortal Man. He could only be a mortal Man, because he did something only mortal Men can do in Middle-Earth. His "being held back" from using his angelic powers did not consist in some edict of the Valar, but was a physical limitation of that specific incarnated form. All the "magic" he does in the books up until his rebirth was, like Narvi's, or Celebrimbor's, or Elrond's or Galadriel's, a very elevated form of "craft" or world-wisdom, but "craft" within the scope of very wise, very learned Men or Elves.

[dehro]

agreed, but before becoming an Istari he had already walked Middle earth either in elven shape or as a whisper in their dreams...
not that I know where that leaves us in terms of this thread though.

[JadePhoenix]

How about Companions of the Hall versus the guys from Year of Rogue Dragons?

[gurgleflep]

How about Companions of the Hall versus the guys from Year of Rogue Dragons?

What's "Year of Rogue Dragons"? :smallconfused:

[JadePhoenix]

What's "Year of Rogue Dragons"? :smallconfused:

A trilogy about a group of adventurers that gets involved with Sammaster. All of Faerun's dragons go berserk and someone has to fix it.

[Forum Explorer]

A trilogy about a group of adventurers that gets involved with Sammaster. All of Faerun's dragons go berserk and someone has to fix it.

It's a good series because it has lots of dragons in it. (The only requirement for a story to be good, why do you think Skyrim was so popular? The gameplay? :smalltongue:)

You will have to specify on which members of the dragon hunters get counted. I mean if the full team is there then they technically have 3 dragons assisting them.

[JadePhoenix]

It's a good series because it has lots of dragons in it. (The only requirement for a story to be good, why do you think Skyrim was so popular? The gameplay? :smalltongue:)

You will have to specify on which members of the dragon hunters get counted. I mean if the full team is there then they technically have 3 dragons assisting them.

Three? Oh, you're counting Jivex :smallwink:
Let's see, Dorn, Pavel, Will, Raryn, Taegan (Jivex counts, Drizzt has Gwen after all) and Kara. I think they would end up in individual duels.
Dorn vs Wulfgar - Dorn wins. Wulfgar is tough, but Dorn is literally made of iron.
Raryn vs Bruenor - Tough match, but I'd go with Bruenor.
Will vs Regis - Will wins, easily. He is a fighter and Regis, well, isn't.
Taegan vs Drizzt - It would be a badass fight for sure and Taegan would bring Drizzt to the limit, but Drizzt would prevail at the end, flight or not.
Jivex vs Gwen - Poor Jivex doesn't stand a chance. All his trickery won't help against Gwen's instincts.
Not sure about the rest.

[gurgleflep]

Three? Oh, you're counting Jivex :smallwink:
Let's see, Dorn, Pavel, Will, Raryn, Taegan (Jivex counts, Drizzt has Gwen after all) and Kara. I think they would end up in individual duels.
Dorn vs Wulfgar - Dorn wins. Wulfgar is tough, but Dorn is literally made of iron.
Raryn vs Bruenor - Tough match, but I'd go with Bruenor.
Will vs Regis - Will wins, easily. He is a fighter and Regis, well, isn't.
Taegan vs Drizzt - It would be a badass fight for sure and Taegan would bring Drizzt to the limit, but Drizzt would prevail at the end, flight or not.
Jivex vs Gwen - Poor Jivex doesn't stand a chance. All his trickery won't help against Gwen's instincts.
Not sure about the rest.

I have to argue with the Will vs Regis bit, Regis still has his amulet. He'd use it to convince him to... I don't know, give him his weapons and jump off a cliff - after giving him his money!

[JadePhoenix]

Will is called will for a reason. That is one halfling with heroic resolve, I'll tell ya. Don't think any kind of mind control would hit him easily.

[gurgleflep]

Will is called will for a reason. That is one halfling with heroic resolve, I'll tell ya. Don't think any kinf od mind control would hit him easily.

I haven't personally read the series, so I'll take your word for it. Halfings - regardless of the book/movie/game/series they come from - always have really good Will saves.

[JadePhoenix]

I haven't personally read the series, so I'll take your word for it. Halfings - regardless of the book/movie/game/series they come from - always have really good Will saves.

Read it, it's quite entertaining

[gurgleflep]

Read it, it's quite entertaining

Will do. Who's the author?

[JadePhoenix]

Will do. Who's the author?

Richard Lee Byers

[Forum Explorer]

Three? Oh, you're counting Jivex :smallwink:
Let's see, Dorn, Pavel, Will, Raryn, Taegan (Jivex counts, Drizzt has Gwen after all) and Kara. I think they would end up in individual duels.
Dorn vs Wulfgar - Dorn wins. Wulfgar is tough, but Dorn is literally made of iron.
Raryn vs Bruenor - Tough match, but I'd go with Bruenor.
Will vs Regis - Will wins, easily. He is a fighter and Regis, well, isn't.
Taegan vs Drizzt - It would be a badass fight for sure and Taegan would bring Drizzt to the limit, but Drizzt would prevail at the end, flight or not.
Jivex vs Gwen - Poor Jivex doesn't stand a chance. All his trickery won't help against Gwen's instincts.
Not sure about the rest.

Of course I'm counting Jivex! He's only the greatest dragon of them all! :smallbiggrin:

It's been a while since I read that series so lets see how my memory stands up,

Dorn- Half-golem

Pavel - Sun Cleric

Will - Halfling Rogue

Raryn - Dwarven Ranger

Taegan and Jivex - Pure awesome

Kara - Song Dragon

vs

Wulfgar - Barbarian King

Bruenor - Dwarf King

Drizzit - Drow Ranger

Regis - Halfling Rogue

Cattiebre - Archer

Gwen - Panther

Regis is kinda useless in this fight. He might manage to play a minor role but he really lacks the skill for a straight up fight, and his charm wouldn't be effective.

Drizzit could likely outfight any member of the Dragonhunters, except for Kara. Because Dragon. Oh he'd put up a good fight but Kara would end up hitting all of the Companions with things like her spells, her breath weapon and just her attacks.

Wulfgar could bring a lot of force but Dorn would meet him head on and tanks dragon's attacks. I think Dorn would be fine. Wulfgar would likely tie him up for the entire fight, but if he threw his hammer Dorn would just gut him.

Will plays the same sort of role as Gwen weirdly enough. Sneaking his way and ambushing a vulnerable target. Most likely he'd pick off Regis or go after Cattie

Cattie is the long ranged specialist of the Companions, though she does have Cutter. Her bow is decently lethal and she has pretty good aim. She might pick off a Dragonhunter with a lucky arrow and would keep Taegan out of the sky.

Taegan would likely go up against Drizzit. Alone he would likely lose, though his magic would make it a tough fight. However Kara's presence and Jivex's support would turn the tide. Not to mention Pavel.

Pavel is a Cleric. So a front line fighter as well as a healer and all around buffer. Good armor as well. Bruenor could likely take him down, but his magic would be likely preventing any lucky blows from becoming winning blows. Jivex is a debuffer. He would avoid direct fighting and the biggest threat to him is Cattibre with her bow. His blindness and deafness spells would eliminate anyone but Drizzit as an opponent and perhaps even him. He also can claw someone up pretty good.

Raryn is the long ranged specialist of the Dragonhunters. Unlike Cattibre he doesn't have a magic bow. However he does have a lot more skill as well as some magic charms to increase the effectiveness of his shots. They'd be around the same effectiveness I would think. Gwen would likely target him, or Jivex or Pavel.

Anyways I'd give it to the team that has both a primary caster but also a dragon.

[gurgleflep]

Of course I'm counting Jivex! He's only the greatest dragon of them all! :smallbiggrin:

It's been a while since I read that series so lets see how my memory stands up,

Dorn- Half-golem

Pavel - Sun Cleric

Will - Halfling Rogue

Raryn - Dwarven Ranger

Taegan and Jivex - Pure awesome

Kara - Song Dragon

vs

Wulfgar - Barbarian King

Bruenor - Dwarf King

Drizzit - Drow Ranger

Regis - Halfling Rogue

Cattiebre - Archer

Gwen - Panther

Regis is kinda useless in this fight. He might manage to play a minor role but he really lacks the skill for a straight up fight, and his charm wouldn't be effective.

Drizzit could likely outfight any member of the Dragonhunters, except for Kara. Because Dragon. Oh he'd put up a good fight but Kara would end up hitting all of the Companions with things like her spells, her breath weapon and just her attacks.

Wulfgar could bring a lot of force but Dorn would meet him head on and tanks dragon's attacks. I think Dorn would be fine. Wulfgar would likely tie him up for the entire fight, but if he threw his hammer Dorn would just gut him.

Will plays the same sort of role as Gwen weirdly enough. Sneaking his way and ambushing a vulnerable target. Most likely he'd pick off Regis or go after Cattie

Cattie is the long ranged specialist of the Companions, though she does have Cutter. Her bow is decently lethal and she has pretty good aim. She might pick off a Dragonhunter with a lucky arrow and would keep Taegan out of the sky.

Taegan would likely go up against Drizzit. Alone he would likely lose, though his magic would make it a tough fight. However Kara's presence and Jivex's support would turn the tide. Not to mention Pavel.

Pavel is a Cleric. So a front line fighter as well as a healer and all around buffer. Good armor as well. Bruenor could likely take him down, but his magic would be likely preventing any lucky blows from becoming winning blows. Jivex is a debuffer. He would avoid direct fighting and the biggest threat to him is Cattibre with her bow. His blindness and deafness spells would eliminate anyone but Drizzit as an opponent and perhaps even him. He also can claw someone up pretty good.

Raryn is the long ranged specialist of the Dragonhunters. Unlike Cattibre he doesn't have a magic bow. However he does have a lot more skill as well as some magic charms to increase the effectiveness of his shots. They'd be around the same effectiveness I would think. Gwen would likely target him, or Jivex or Pavel.

Anyways I'd give it to the team that has both a primary caster but also a dragon.

All very sound reasons, but what if we were to throw in Cadderly so that the Companions have a spellcaster? Or if he's to powerful the wizard from Captain Deudermont's ship, Robillard?

[Traab]

All very sound reasons, but what if we were to throw in Cadderly so that the Companions have a spellcaster? Or if he's to powerful the wizard from Captain Deudermont's ship, Robillard?

Cadderly at his peak is a walking deus ex machina. Seriously, most clerics have magic limited to a fairly narrow focus, cadderly having the connection to denir he has is able to discover that the song of denir lets him do pretty much anything. He can turn back time, mind control, control the elements, heal, bring back the dead, (though thats a really rough thing for him to try) He is so powerful he can even do things that are utterly opposed to his gods tenets like access chaos magic itself to do things. He is like an epic level wizard/sorc/druid/cleric who could probably do necromantic magic if he bothered to try. This is going by the books, not any D&D campaign setups or anything.

[BWR]

Cadderly at his peak is a walking deus ex machina.
Isn't that the point of clerics? :smallwink:

Apart from the time-turning thing, most of that sounds like stuff high-level clerics should be able to do, and could do under AD&D rules. At least 2E. Not sure about 1E. The chaos magic stuff: are we talking wild magic? I haven't read the books, but that does sound weird.

[Starwulf]

Isn't that the point of clerics? :smallwink:

Apart from the time-turning thing, most of that sounds like stuff high-level clerics should be able to do, and could do under AD&D rules. At least 2E. Not sure about 1E. The chaos magic stuff: are we talking wild magic? I haven't read the books, but that does sound weird.

I think the difference between Cadderly and regular clerics, is he isn't limited in spells a day. He is able to directly access the "Song of Deneir", and pulls his spells directly from that, basically at will and as much or as little as he wants. He is, from what I can tell(having read the Cleric Quintent and other books involving him multiple times) as far above an Arch-Priest/Cleric as an Arch Priest/Cleric is above a Priest.

[Traab]

Isn't that the point of clerics? :smallwink:

Apart from the time-turning thing, most of that sounds like stuff high-level clerics should be able to do, and could do under AD&D rules. At least 2E. Not sure about 1E. The chaos magic stuff: are we talking wild magic? I haven't read the books, but that does sound weird.

No, not wild magic. The way he uses magic is he literally hears the song of denir. Its like a river of music, and by following different tributaries of it, different harmonies, he can access different magic, including stuff outside the general sphere of what a cleric would be expected to do. When facing off against an ancient red dragon, his normal magic was useless against it for (reasons) so he found a way. He literally screwed up the song of denir as completely and chaotically as he could. He found his way to basically as far as it is possible to get from the magic of the god of order and used it. Up was down, right was circle, 1+1= dandelion, total and utter chaos. He used that to cast some sort of emotion reversal magic on the dragon. Basically, whatever he would normally feel, he felt the opposite. So suddenly they went from smaug level reactions of "THIEF AND LIAR!!!!!!" to, "Friend priest, what do you need?"

His friends with him at the time, convinced him to use the dragon as a mode of conveyance to speed up a long journey they were on. Unfortunately, the spell wore off when he got worked up over destroying a large column of giants goblins and other nasty creatures, and after killing them all off, they had to turn around and fight the dragon. Cadderly managed to use some magic that literally stole the dragons age from him. Turning him from an ancient dragon large enough to swallow a giant whole, to the size of a young dragon. He literally made the dragon centuries younger.

[Barmoz]

Cadderly at his peak is a walking deus ex machina. Seriously, most clerics have magic limited to a fairly narrow focus, cadderly having the connection to denir he has is able to discover that the song of denir lets him do pretty much anything. He can turn back time, mind control, control the elements, heal, bring back the dead, (though thats a really rough thing for him to try) He is so powerful he can even do things that are utterly opposed to his gods tenets like access chaos magic itself to do things. He is like an epic level wizard/sorc/druid/cleric who could probably do necromantic magic if he bothered to try. This is going by the books, not any D&D campaign setups or anything.

So he's the Drizzt of spellcasting?

[JadePhoenix]

So he's the Drizzt of spellcasting?

What? :smallconfused: That statement does not make a lot of sense. Being powerful and skilled is one thing, being a walking deus ex machina (i.e., basically being able to do anything) is another. Drizzt's abilities are very well defined, even.

[Traab]

So he's the Drizzt of spellcasting?

What Jade said, Cadderlys power is the ability to cast any spell for any scenario that may arise. It is justified as "Different ways to play the song of denir" or some such rot. Maybe different tributaries to the river leading to different skill sets, whatever. Point being, if a spell needs to be cast, cadderly will pretty much always be capable of casting it, no matter what classic spell caster school it belongs to.

[dehro]

What Jade said, Cadderlys power is the ability to cast any spell for any scenario that may arise. It is justified as "Different ways to play the song of denir" or some such rot. Maybe different tributaries to the river leading to different skill sets, whatever. Point being, if a spell needs to be cast, cadderly will pretty much always be capable of casting it, no matter what classic spell caster school it belongs to.

Cadderly Vs Batman, anyone?

[Tanuki Tales]

Drizzt killed a balor without dying. Gandalf died killing his.

I'm still catching up on the thread, but that's honestly an unfair representation of the event.

The plot conveniently killed Errtu, not Drizzt.

[Traab]

Cadderly Vs Batman, anyone?

Pretty sure one on one, in general batman would win, if only because cadderly needs TIME to cast his spells. Once batman closes the gap, no half assed walking stick swinging is going to fend him off long enough to cast a spell, and the dude dodges automatic gunfire, an explosive tipped crossbow isnt going to be that big a challenge. If batman had to fight his way through danica and the dwarves, it would be a different matter. Hell, danica could likely feed batman his feet in a straight up fight and then make him swallow. But either way, even if it wasnt that easy, by the time he realizes this freaking waif of a girl can beat him to death with his own arms and disengages, cadderly would already be casting his mojo and defeating him with one of a thousand possible options. But one on one? Meh, batman likely wins.

[oblivion6]

I would comment on Cadderly versus Batman, but I couldn't even consider it fairly considering I HATE Bats and am sort of a Cadderly and co. fanboy.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I'll be posting this in the 3.5 forums as well so that I have differing opinions on this:

Okay, which team would win between the Companions of the Hall:
Drizzt, Wulfgar, Bruenor, Catti-Brie, Regis, and Guenhwyvar
and the Fellowship of the Ring:
Aragorn, Legolas, Gimili, Boromir, Merry, Pippin, Frodo, Sam and Gandalf (the Gray, the fellowship was whole (nobody had died nor were they split up) when he was gray).

The teams are uneven seeing as the Companions don't have a spellcaster of any sort and their size is a bit smaller, so lets use Harkel Harpel.

1.) Team versus team in different locations - hilly wilderness, a flat prarie, cave system (appropriately lit).
2.) Dungeon crawl - goblins, orcs, hobgoblins and one giant at the end of the cave; plenty of traps; loot!

I'll be clarifying any points and modifying this as the post goes on so that I may get the best answers.

Edit: Specified which Gandalf and explained why.

If we take Gandalf out of the equation then Drizzt and company wins, I love the LOTRS characters but only Aragorn can stand up to Drizzt and if we have a D&D wizard into things then we are in trouble. If we have Gandalf the White then no way Drizzt can win.