Helping a friend who's frustrated over using Diplomacy.

[killem2]

We use:

The Old Rule: Burlew's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html)

She feels like she cannot RP this petal psion she has with a massive diplomacy skill of 29, because she would like to know how she harnesses the power of this skill, she loves the concept of this cute petal that has an amazing ability to talk down people and converse her way through actions.


Well I asked her what frustrates her about this skill: (and I quote)

"That its not clear when it will work."

"That I can't just sway and talk pretty and roll."

"I have to have leverage or something to get what I want and its annoying cause I know nothing about 95 % of races and classes to know what to offer.
Like the dragon for example. We killed her baby."

[for background we did kill a medium dragon that was the baby of a Huge White Dragon and it came for us. We killed it, but before we even got into the fighting, she wants to know if diplomacy could have helped and how?]

"I wanted to talk thru my psi crystal to her until I knew she wouldn't eat me off the bat and sway her it wasn't our fault but she knew."

"But I had nothing to offer"

"the mentalist, that's who want her to be like patrick jayne"

What would you say to this frustrated player? How can we help her?

[eggynack]

She should probably start offering money to folks. GP is like a universal incentive, detached from race, class, or separate motivations. If you killed a dragon's baby, it seems unreasonable that diplomacy would help you. The fact that it probably would under the old system doesn't give that system any points in my book. Also, if she's a psion, does she have any mind reading skills? If she does then finding a good incentive should be pretty easy. If she doesn't, then gold. Seriously, it works between most or all of the time. If you aren't willing to spend gold on an outcome, then it's not an outcome you particularly cared about.

[Zanfire]

If she's upset because she doesn't know enough about who the party is negotiating with to aptly manipulate them, <this is what she's trying to do right; it sounds like she want's to be doing more than just getting a sweet deal in the markets> then suggest she finds out more about them first? If she's going in cold, <there's no way to know anything about them beforehand> let her make a series of skill checks to glean some information about their motives, etc. ie. the pertinent knowledge skill to recall racial proclivities, search/spot to observe something about them which might reveal what they like, sense motive to get an idea of what their inclinations are, if she has time to prepare, suggest she does some recognizance to find some of these things out.

[Amnestic]

You're killing Huge Dragons so presumably you have some sort of decent level under your belt by now. Depending on the world the game is set in, this could make the party's (and by extension, the Petal's) set of skills very desirable. All she needs to do is use her Diplomacy to get her foot in the door (say "Look, we're high level adventurers - you need something? We can work out a deal that works for all of us." or the like) and go from there.

You killed the dragon's baby though - the desire for revenge would likely be throwing a +20 onto the DC ('Horrible' chance of equal reward and Nemesis level relationship) straight up. I'm not surprised they didn't manage it and I don't think the player should be either.

[Jasdoif]

She can certainly offer "nothing", although that doesn't help the risk-reward ratio much. Still, with that high Diplomacy modifier it'd possible for even a horrible deal to go through depending on the recipient. For example, a 5th level NPC with no relationship and Wisdom 16 would have DC 33 for a horrible deal. She'd make that on a roll of 4 or higher.

Also, don't forget about intangible/implied offers. Avoiding a confrontation with an adventuring party strong enough to take on huge dragons, and/or doing a favor for a cute petal, could be considered positives depending on who she's talking to without requiring any explicit proposal on her part.

[killem2]

Just a bit more back ground.

There are five party members.

Petal Psion who is level 4, with a psicrystal, and a warbeast tiger she handles through handle animals skill.

Elf Rogue who is level 5, Skill monkey.

Ghost Elf Wizard who is level 5.

Half Giant pyschic warrior who is level 4.

and me,

Goliath Barbarian/Fighter 4 (dungeon crasher).

The fight with the Dragon started off with me Going into my rage and activating a tatoo of expansion. (DM ruled exlated feat Righteous Wrath lets me be calm under rage)

I started off with a 111 point bullrush/knockback and sent that dragon flying 75 feet. We probably could have ended the fight outself but the Frost Giant who was kicked out of this cave came in to aid. (it was probably planned for that anyway)




She should probably start offering money to folks. GP is like a universal incentive, detached from race, class, or separate motivations. If you killed a dragon's baby, it seems unreasonable that diplomacy would help you. The fact that it probably would under the old system doesn't give that system any points in my book. Also, if she's a psion, does she have any mind reading skills? If she does then finding a good incentive should be pretty easy. If she doesn't, then gold. Seriously, it works between most or all of the time. If you aren't willing to spend gold on an outcome, then it's not an outcome you particularly cared about.

She doesn't have any real mind affecting things yet, I can help her with power selection, if you have any suggestions. Keep in mind she is new. She started playing with me as the DM back in October 2012, as a wizard, we played until Decemeber, and swiched to my friends session with him as the DM.

Currently we play around 7 solid hours each session, and there has been 5 sessions. She is pretty intimidated at speaking out and wanting to role play her character. She has the mechanics down, rolling dice, attack bonus, that sort of stuff. She understand how powers work and tactically is getting very good at using her Tiger. She has used her psicrystal a couple times for scouting.


I will let her know about gold. The reason we were even here, we had been sent here by a Duke on behalf of the Queen of the entire region, to find a book that hints at something about Dragons. The back story to this world is, it was ravaged by a dragon war 1000 years ago. Mortals lashed out at all dragons, so most dragons are pretty rare. That's all we really know right now.


If she's upset because she doesn't know enough about who the party is negotiating with to aptly manipulate them, <this is what she's trying to do right; it sounds like she want's to be doing more than just getting a sweet deal in the markets> then suggest she finds out more about them first? If she's going in cold, <there's no way to know anything about them beforehand> let her make a series of skill checks to glean some information about their motives, etc. ie. the pertinent knowledge skill to recall racial proclivities, search/spot to observe something about them which might reveal what they like, sense motive to get an idea of what their inclinations are, if she has time to prepare, suggest she does some recognizance to find some of these things out.

I will forward this on. She wants to be like above the mentalist (I've never seen the show so I don't know what he's like) the closest comparison that I told her she's kind of like is Face from the A-Team.

The other issue is, we were going to use the base rules, but after the DM asked me about how the old diplomacy worked and I advised him with the straight yes, she can do that, yes full round action for rushes, and yes the enemy just gives in, yes that's the way this works, he wanted to use these rules.


You're killing Huge Dragons so presumably you have some sort of decent level under your belt by now. Depending on the world the game is set in, this could make the party's (and by extension, the Petal's) set of skills very desirable. All she needs to do is use her Diplomacy to get her foot in the door (say "Look, we're high level adventurers - you need something? We can work out a deal that works for all of us." or the like) and go from there.

You killed the dragon's baby though - the desire for revenge would likely be throwing a +20 onto the DC ('Horrible' chance of equal reward and Nemesis level relationship) straight up. I'm not surprised they didn't manage it and I don't think the player should be either.

Levels are above, with help of a frost giant (I think my goliath was holding his own).

I am also the one who mentioned she could have tried to be diplomatic with the dragon. They are charismatic and they are intelligent, it may not work out but she could have tried. But she didn't know how to start. I do agree, it would have came stacked with some DC, but at this point I think she could still nail it.


She can certainly offer "nothing", although that doesn't help the risk-reward ratio much. Still, with that high Diplomacy modifier it'd possible for even a horrible deal to go through depending on the recipient. For example, a 5th level NPC with no relationship and Wisdom 16 would have DC 33 for a horrible deal. She'd make that on a roll of 4 or higher.

Also, don't forget about intangible/implied offers. Avoiding a confrontation with an adventuring party strong enough to take on huge dragons, and/or doing a favor for a cute petal, could be considered positives depending on who she's talking to without requiring any explicit proposal on her part.


That's exactly why she didn't is because she just assume nothing = fail, and that isn't the case. Of course even if we got the dragon to let us slide we still don't really know why there was a dragon around in such a rare time anyway.

She wants to also use her character to talk down enemies if given the chance, but alsod didn't quite grasp who she is suppose to do that.

[-------------------------------------]

I also brought up to her (metagaming at this point but I want to help her understand what she is able to do), that she could go to the Duke who wants this book, and possibly make a long lasting friend from the Duke who has direct access to not just a Queen, but THE QUEEN. We could get something massive out of that later on.

She asked what can I offer?

I said, well you have some crucial piece of intel they want, sure they are rewarding you with a 5k magic item, but you are the party face, see what you can gain from it.

She asked how?

I told her I would get back to her.

I am hoping if I can help her succeed just once at diplomacy she will feel more apt to really use it more!

[Duke of Urrel]

Most people learn to crawl before they can walk. It's the same with Diplomacy. Starting off with a huge amount of Diplomacy skill without ever having managed a small amount of it must be daunting, and if your first task as a diplomat is to persuade an enraged white dragon to repress her own desire to kill the creatures that killed her own offspring (a task that some DMs would place beyond the power of mere Diplomacy, even following the "old" rule), I can fully understand why you might feel a little discouraged.

It would help if the party's leading diplomat could be given a task that's a little easier than shooting the moon. How about a little planning? I mean, if your aim is to get a dragon to co-operate with you, how about approaching the next dragon you see with some tact, rather than killing it? Diplomacy is a useful strategic tool, but you've got to give it a chance, and kill-first-apologize-later is not the best way to give it a chance.

[nedz]

Gold isn't the only answer, in fact it can be quite a poor choice.

She, or someone else, could make Knowledge rolls, Gather information rolls, etc. to find out what a good deal might be. Alternatively you could just ask what someone wants.

[killem2]

This is such good stuff guys, she is going to love this info!

She also replied just a few minutes ago after she re-read the Burlew Diplomacy:

"I also thought when we had changed the diplomacy rules it became useless in battle, therefore in the case of the dragon- I don’t know what we could have done to avoid battle when it would have become a fight before I would have a chance to talk to it, though I had contemplated the psi crystal going out first and talking thru it…but I wasn’t sure how that would translate for my diplomacy- I want to take hold of this and use it. I was thinking about when I speak with the duke again and how seeing as we lost a party member 5,000 gold doesn’t seem like nearly enough compensation…however when building ties, I can deceive and extort, however if I want lasting ties I need to be clever enough to make them think it was their idea…there is the challenge for me. I can only put into my character what I can think of to put into my character rp wise and I am not sure I can be quick, witty or clever enough to play her to her full potential, but I suppose if I don’t practice I’ll never get there. "

Thoughts?

[prufock]

She feels like she cannot RP this petal psion she has with a massive diplomacy skill of 29, because she would like to know how she harnesses the power of this skill, she loves the concept of this cute petal that has an amazing ability to talk down people and converse her way through actions.

I honestly dislike the Giant's alternate rule here. It is created to unbreak diplomacy, while your player friend likes the idea of the breakability of diplomacy with a very high check. It may simply be that her expectations are off compared to the new rule.

I really don't like the original flat DCs either though. I think Diplomacy should be opposed by Sense Motive, and the change in attitude should be based on the difference. Anyway, you're not asking for rule suggestions.

I would say that there are some things that can't be diplomacized, or at least should have a lower attitude than "hostile," similarly to how "fanatical" is higher than "helpful." Maybe "hatred." A dragon whose baby you just killed? Hatred. Want to get her up to "hostile"? Yeah, that's a DC 50 check.

With the rules you're using, Jasdoif makes some good points. DC 15 + 21 (dragon HD) + 1 (wisdom) + 10 (nemesis) + 10 (horrible exchange) = 57. A difficult check, for sure, and impossible with her current modifier, but if you make a slightly better offer, or buff her charisma/diplomacy somehow (spells, Aid Another, etc) she can make it possible, even if it takes a 20 (which, quite frankly, this type of situation should). Heck, even a proposed deal of "don't try to kill us, and we won't try to kill you" should be an Even trade, dropping the DC to 47 (possible on an 18-20 for her).

[killem2]

She's extremely mindful of stepping on peoples toes. She doesn't want to "break" diplomacy she just wants to know how to RP diplomacy and how you really insert yourself into the situation to do so.

I've tried explaining a bit, but I feel its good to get advice from all walks of d&d life :smallwink:

[Amnestic]

Heck, even a proposed deal of "don't try to kill us, and we won't try to kill you" should be an Even trade, dropping the DC to 47 (possible on an 18-20 for her).

If they had no history I'd agree, but the party killed her child. It's not "don't try to kill us, we won't try to kill you", it's "Forget that we killed your child, and we won't try to kill you." Not exactly an even trade ;)

I'm not a parent, but chances are if you floated that offer to one it'd only anger them more :smalltongue:

[Sugashane]

If they had no history I'd agree, but the party killed her child. It's not "don't try to kill us, we won't try to kill you", it's "Forget that we killed your child, and we won't try to kill you." Not exactly an even trade ;)

I'm not a parent, but chances are if you floated that offer to one it'd only anger them more :smalltongue:

I am, and you're damn right. :smallbiggrin:

[Pickford]

This is such good stuff guys, she is going to love this info!

She also replied just a few minutes ago after she re-read the Burlew Diplomacy:

"I also thought when we had changed the diplomacy rules it became useless in battle, therefore in the case of the dragon- I don’t know what we could have done to avoid battle when it would have become a fight before I would have a chance to talk to it, though I had contemplated the psi crystal going out first and talking thru it…but I wasn’t sure how that would translate for my diplomacy- I want to take hold of this and use it. I was thinking about when I speak with the duke again and how seeing as we lost a party member 5,000 gold doesn’t seem like nearly enough compensation…however when building ties, I can deceive and extort, however if I want lasting ties I need to be clever enough to make them think it was their idea…there is the challenge for me. I can only put into my character what I can think of to put into my character rp wise and I am not sure I can be quick, witty or clever enough to play her to her full potential, but I suppose if I don’t practice I’ll never get there. "

Thoughts?

Diplomacy requires 'time' to enact, it's at least one minute. That makes it impossible to truly use diplomacy in combat, there simply isn't the time required.

If you want to get out of this situation (very angry person attacking) two skills are required:

1) A bluff check to convince the entity you're just there to talk. This 'may' be enough to prevent the enraged whoever from following through into combat.
2) Then a diplomacy check to make your case.

Otherwise, you're pretty much down to subduing them (try dealing non-lethal damage) or otherwise tangling them up so you can have a nice chat.

Also, I'm not familiar with the burlew homebrew rule change to diplomacy. What is it?

[Larrx]

Losing a child can be a powerful motive to seek revenge, and could reasonably make diplomacy impossible. However, as I understand it, dragons are nearly extinct in this campaign. Surviving, to hopefully give birth to more dragons may, might outweigh combat and potential death. It would be up to the DM and the dragon's particular personality, but it could lead to an interesting conversation and fun roleplay. A result like that is the best use for diplomacy imho. It might not lead to success, but it could lead to fun rp, more info, and leads to further the main plot.

[Jasdoif]

Also, I'm not familiar with the burlew homebrew rule change to diplomacy. What is it?You can see the post form of the article here.


Losing a child can be a powerful motive to seek revenge, and could reasonably make diplomacy impossible. However, as I understand it, dragons are nearly extinct in this campaign. Surviving, to hopefully give birth to more dragons may, might outweigh combat and potential death. It would be up to the DM and the dragon's particular personality, but it could lead to an interesting conversation and fun roleplay. A result like that is the best use for diplomacy imho. It might not lead to success, but it could lead to fun rp, more info, and leads to further the main plot.Hmm....Suppose the dragon were willing to forego its undying hatred, if the party gets a cleric to resurrect her child. The party would have far better luck finding a cleric than a huge dragon would, so she might have let the party speak purely for that usefulness. Actually finding a cleric capable of casting resurrection would be a chore in itself, but that's why the dragon hasn't done it herself.

[killem2]

By chance do any of you have any podcasts, articles, other forum posts that just talk about diplomacy, the flavor, the rp side of it, anything?

She's actually really interested in learning anything she needs to get use out of this skill.


Are there any adventure you know of that have a scene where diplomacy can walk through?

[prufock]

If they had no history I'd agree, but the party killed her child. It's not "don't try to kill us, we won't try to kill you", it's "Forget that we killed your child, and we won't try to kill you." Not exactly an even trade ;)

I don't disagree with your principle, but in reference to this specific rule variant, the history/motive is factored into the "Relationship" section, increasing the DC by 10, which I included in my post.

"Risk vs Reward" is a judgment call on the DM's part, and depends on how high the dragon estimates her chance of success, and how highly she values revenge, a meal, and potential loot. Food and loot are probably negligible in this case, and revenge is not going to resurrect her baby. So +0 is a best case scenario.

[Phelix-Mu]

The level at which Diplomacy is implemented can often depend on DM willingness to allow good role play and such to augment the given rules. I am not particularly familiar with this version of the Diplomacy mechanic (though it sure sounds better than the very wonky flat DC), but my past experiences as both a player and DM lead me to suggest that adding more role play and a good argument can often influence the DM to ad hoc some bonuses or change the DC to account for it.

The suggestion about the mother dragon not fighting the party so that the party could seek a cleric to raise dead/resurrection on the child is an excellent example. Not only can this arrangement be offered persuasively, but it is, in fact, a logical way for all parties to benefit from the interaction (though the dragon may still have hard feelings regarding the party, and it's not clear why the dragon will trust the party to keep their word).

The main problem is getting the dragon to think unemotionally about the issue, or to appeal to a set of emotions that will neutralize the dragon's current anger and desire for revenge. Stereotypical white dragons are not the easiest to rationalize with (not to mention not particularly intelligent), but all dragons are proud and ego-centric, so an appeal to the dragon as the future of its race, a rare species on the edge of extinction (if this is the case), and that the party can, as opposed to actively hunting down dragons, help this proud scion of dragonkind to carve out a place for itself in the world that will endure into the future, creating a legacy that will hold this mother dragon as the savior of white dragons. Blah, blah, blah, but you get the idea.

The basic premise of negotiation is to understand the other party's mindset, goals, motives, whether through intuition or book-smarts. Armed with this perspective on the other party, you then approach what could be a conflict and explain how things might be different if the two party's could reach an understanding, perhaps mutually beneficial, perhaps minimizing risks, perhaps logical. There are a number of approaches, but it all starts with empathy toward and comprehension of the other person/creature. A good DM will reward the player for putting emphasis on the role play aspect of this interaction skill, as opposed to making it a one-roll peacemaker.

[Zanfire]

Is she looking for advice on how to better role play diplomacy? ie. When she mentions getting more from the duke because a pc died, is she actually looking for a way to approach the duke? More plainly, is she asking what her character should actually say in game to the duke to start negotiations and what her character can actually say in game to manipulate him into giving her more than the previously agreed upon 5k?

If this is the case then maybe looking at it from a D&D/tabletop RPG game isn't the best angle. She should actually be looking into irl manipulation techniques. If Patric Jane's style is what she's after maybe she should watch a marathon and take notes. There are a couple other popculture examples out there too, or if she's like a more academic approach, there is always irl research into the topic.

[killem2]

Is she looking for advice on how to better role play diplomacy? ie. When she mentions getting more from the duke because a pc died, is she actually looking for a way to approach the duke? More plainly, is she asking what her character should actually say in game to the duke to start negotiations and what her character can actually say in game to manipulate him into giving her more than the previously agreed upon 5k?

If this is the case then maybe looking at it from a D&D/tabletop RPG game isn't the best angle. She should actually be looking into irl manipulation techniques. If Patric Jane's style is what she's after maybe she should watch a marathon and take notes. There are a couple other popculture examples out there too, or if she's like a more academic approach, there is always irl research into the topic.

I am going to ask her about this now, I will be back with you on that in a bit. I think it is best if she answers as much as she can with out me interpreting what she meant :).


Here we go!

"I’d say I am more looking for maybe the mechanics I guess, I want to know say I start talking to him, and I say something about looking for magic items and seeing if he knows anyone who could help us and that he may have “clout” with where we could get access to finding these sooner than we normally would. Or whatever I decide on trying to angle…if he were to shut me down, if things were to go bad, I don’t understand how to recover can I keep rolling checks, or do I have to stop…could it become a situation that he would step backwards, or do I just fail to progress…but all tips to how to better rp diplomacy are welcome…"

and

"Because Patrick Jayne would totally act unphased and accept the answer, and as he was walking away either add something that would give him leverage cleverly or come back to that person later once he felt he had more ammunition…"

[Zanfire]

Try Again: If you alter the parameters of the deal you are proposing, you may try to convince the subject that this new deal is even better than the last one. This is essentially how people haggle. As long as you never roll 10 or less than the DC on your Diplomacy check, you can continue to offer deals.


per the rules u quote; she can do just that <a la Jayne>: The duke shuts her down saying he won't make an introduction to the city's leading merchant <or w/e> she says "...very well then..." and starts to walk away, gets a few feet away, pauses, turns slightly "...its a shame THE QUEEN's praises of your benevolence were baseless, she'll be so disappointed..." <or something else> and makes another diplomacy check with different modifiers

[Vastly]

I've always found Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate to mechanically lean heavily on your DM regardless of which iteration of the rules they're using. Even in the same system, 2 different DMs will often implement 2 different interpretations of social skills. This makes RP and understanding what you can and can't do very difficult until you get very familiar with how specific DMs operate. This is further exacerbated if the character is more proficient then the player at this particular skill.

As someone suggested earlier, you often need to crawl before you walk, and so the best way I've found to crawl in this situation is simple communication. Ask the DM if what you want to do with diplomacy is possible, can you even try. Clearly explain your intent, before or after you RP your character. With time she'll need to ask fewer questions or explain her intent less often because she'll come to understand the DM better and vice versa.

Direct questions and explanations are also less intimidating and can lead to players being more comfortable straight RPing later on. I went through a similar issue recently with my own character, where I started out explaining myself rather then RPing, and after a few sessions I got into a grove and straight RPed it.

[Darrin]

"Dead child" is not exactly a good place to try and use diplomacy, but if I were trying to pull this off...

PC: "Hold, great wyrm! By the discolored pattern of your neck scales, I can see you are a member of the Greater Synod of Shadowfangs, and by the Draconic Accords of Skyvault I invoke the Bylaws of Dragonkin, so that we can discuss the wereguild reparations required to raise your accidentally slain child."

DM, who has never previously heared of the Greater Synod of Shadowfangs, Draconic Accords of Skyvault, or the Bylaws of Dragonkin: "...Ooookaaaay... what exactly are you trying to do?"

PC: "Well, I figure evil dragons probably have organizations, and those organizations probably have laws similar to the Vikings, so if you kill a dragon's family member, you could pay the wereguild or whatever to get them raised, and deciding how much that wereguild should be would be a Diplomacy roll."

DM, looking at a possible TPK, and ignoring the 'chaotic' portion of the white dragon's alignment for the time being: "Ok, that makes sense. Go ahead and roll."

It sounds like she's frustrated that she doesn't know the backstory to all the monsters (which would frustrate anyone playing with a bunch of book-memorizing grognards). Well, the DM probably doesn't have 100% of the backstory worked out either, so Make Stuff Up and see if the DM will weave it into his own backstory. If you've got a really good DM, he'll hear "organization of evil dragons" or be thinking "Skyvault = floating castle full of evil dragon lawyers" and then run with it.

At best, a creative player injects a little imagination into the DM's backstory, and he can surprise the players by bringing it up again later on, fleshing out the Synod or Skyvault or whatever to fit his particular plot.

At worst, the DM says "Nice try, but no. Roll initiative."

[NichG]

The issue is fundamentally one of information. The DM has (or can on the fly) create as much information as needed to understand for themselves the motivations of NPCs, how they will react, etc. The players have only what has come up during game.

Knowledge checks are conceivably the way around this, but it takes some leaps of logic to think that, e.g., Knowledge(History) should tell you about this particular dragon's habits. Or would that be Knowledge(Arcana) which normally applies to lore about dragons (but perhaps not this particular dragon) or even Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty). And really, should Knowledge checks be usable to get blackmail material which is very personal and not really part of the collected learnings of the civilized world?

So my suggestion would be, let a high Diplomacy check (or Sense Motive check to taste) correspond to 'I looked into this guy before we left and here's some information that could be used as leverage on him'. Instead of saying 'provide leverage and roll, and the roll determines how good you used your leverage', say 'the roll provides you with leverage that you must then use in RP'. That way you don't have to be a chessmaster out of character, knowing exactly who you're going to have to research ahead of time. Also, it means the skill is taking up what is IC the harder part of the task.

Basically, its a lot easier for the player who starts the encounter with 'ah, I know that there's a red wyrm that wants to kill you and I have someone waiting to tell him where you are if we don't return' to go and turn that into diplomatic progress than it is for a player to play 'guess the bribe' and then hope that their Diplomacy roll is enough to make the offer seem reasonable.

Plus, it still means that you can't just steamroll everything with Diplomacy. If a DC 40 check gets you a certain piece of leverage, that is what you get from the check, and the rest is up to you. If you try to push for more than the leverage is really worth, then you'll fail. But basically, that leverage appears out of thin air/dramatic editing for free as a result of your roll, so the high Diplomacy investment is actually worth something despite the final outcome being based on RP.

[ericgrau]

A lot of it is having enough roleplaying skill IRL to match it. The other thing to remember is that diplomacy is diplomacy: "skill in managing negotiations, handling people, etc., so that there is little or no ill will; tact:" (dictionary.com)

You should try to come to a reasonable peaceful agreement with the being you contact. There is often some give and take, especially if it's important or dangerous. When it sounds good and he's on the fence about whether or not to go along with it, that's when you roll your diplomacy check.

Dealing peacefully with someone after killing their child would be difficult regardless of your diplomacy modifier. You'd have to offer up something similar to their child, which is no small task. A demonstration that the fight is utterly hopeless for the dragon and that his vengeance is futile, sacrificing one party member rather than the whole party, offering to slay another mortal enemy of the dragon (besides yourself), etc.

[killem2]

Tonight I am going to give you a run down of every possible social interaction she was presented with and didn't use her diplomacy because of of similar frustrations and reservations and see if any of you want to take a stab at them.

[Sutremaine]

Nitpick:


Stereotypical white dragons are not the easiest to rationalize with (not to mention not particularly intelligent)
Compared to other dragons, sure. But a Huge White still has +1 or +2 to all mental stats.

NichG's idea seems good. The player gets to use the skill for the information she needs to RP the actual encounter, giving her the leverage incorporated into the new Diplomacy rules without having to guess at setting or situation details that would come naturally to the character but which are unrevealed to the player.

[BWR]

Honestly, since the problems seem to be in her mind rather than the system (and, I'm assuming, not a problem with the DM) the best thing to do is just explain to her that the skills actually allow her to do these things with a certain degree of success. Just like a spell may allow you to conjure a big ball of fire to damage enemies, heal yourself or a psionic power allows you to squeeze someone's brain out through their nose, Diplomacy allows you to convince people to agree with you. Don't overthink it, just do it.

Perhaps it would help if the DM just tells her to roll Diplomacy right off the bat rather than asking "what do you do?". Make it a statement rather than a question. Do this a couple of times, and give some description of what the character does with the roll and how people react, and pretty soon the player should have an idea of what works and what doesn't. Then she can start taking the initiative on her own.

As for the dragon, perhaps whites, or this particular white, has peculiar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uopoXtR0Kjk)feelings about her children.

[killem2]

I'd like to give you all some other instances where I feel she could have used Diplomacy in our sessions so far.

I understand if no one can take the time but you all have been so open and helpful for her I think I will ask more.

I'm going down a list of social areas she COULD have interjected, if anyone would like to take a stab at one or all or none, and let me know what she could have done.

Ok so here is the run down of every encounter that could have had some interaction.

I'll refer to my friend as Fay (short for Fayette.)

We found Fay in a lair of Kobolds which was the first thing we were suppose to check out from the Duke, she like us was part of small groups of 4-5 that knows this about the land:


There have been many stories told about the history of this land. 1,000 years ago, these lands were swarming with life of the greatest sort, while skies were dominated by the Dragon. Aside from every world’s collection of miscreants, vagabonds, and usual filth the populous lived in relative peace and harmony. The Great Dragon War began by the collective evil of the Chromatic dragons with their greed and lust for power attempted to eradicate most of the kind mortals and good natured Metallic dragons from the realm.

This fighting continued for many years with no end in sight. Desperate for a resolution, the Metallic Dragons sought out for companionship and comrades in mortals of the land. That ally came in the form of the then appointed king, King Tristan. With the aid of King Tristan and the six generals of The Great Dragon war destroying the chaos at hand with order would soon come swift. Each general was in command to assign themselves to a region, establish a home-place for the citizens The Metallic dragons did not know that the good will of alliance they so trusted in these mortals would fade away as summer disappears into fall.

Decades and decades passed as the rubble of the seven major cities of the realm would be forged into militant establishments. Forged from the fear of the past the cities made great strides in their technological advancements to defend themselves against attacks from the air. Soon after even the Metallic dragons and Chromatic dragons alike were hunted and destroyed from the face of the planet.

These seven cities serve has hubs to the few and far between communities and villages that pop up around any large area of commerce. These communities range from farming to lumber work, to hunting or just the few remaining citizens who wish to live off the land alone and in peace. Ones who wish to forget about The Great Dragon war and the misery that it had caused. They have stopped relying on the seven cities for protection as it takes far too long for the trade routes to complete. As of this record there has not been a sighting of a dragon in many years, until now.

Like most inhabitants of the area you too have been living in the out skirt villages or tribes in the mountains. The closest main city of the seven is Winterfell, quite a long march from the king’s throne found at King’s Landing. Despite the lack of protection from the major cities, the sport of adventuring is alive and well and they keep close tabs on those who make worthy adventurers. You just so happen to be one of few who are chosen.
As you all arrive at Winterfell, you notice roughly a quarter mile away from you there is a rather large red dragon 100 feet north of the road being guarded by a number of able bodies. Something that you cannot quite tell what is being built around this beast. It is however getting dark and so the journey must continue to Winterfell for lodging.


And everyone was presented with this:


http://imageshack.us/a/img22/4615/interlude.png


Yes my DM is a huge game of thrones fan, moving on. :P

We stumbled upon a half elf that was fighting two kobolds and we helped him and he helped us get through this trap-ridden place. When we finally got to the room she was in, and we let her out of this secret room she was trapped in, she yells THAT MAN KILLED OUR PARTY.

1. Singling out the Half Elf and basically marking him for death on the spot.

2. We investigated one last room that had a Whitedragon Spawn creature that teleported away via a rune. We collapsed some statues over the rune and left it.

3. When we were on our way out, we searched one last room that we heard noise in, that had 5 kobolds in it, and mid combat they screamed "We just want to be left alone!" She did talk two of them down, passed, and basically offered them their lives if they leave. The other 3 didn't want her offer and died from fighting us.

4. We went back to town, we never spoke to the duke of what happened, only this Elf like check that turned into a silver dragon and told us to head to a cave that has had mysterious juju going on.

5. We ran into a Frost Giant at a camp, he was kicked out of this giant cave that he was in by a White Dragon. People besides her asked if he wanted to come with us, he refused.

6. We went into the cave, and saw a Medium White dragon and 5-6 kobolds taunting this other Kobold calling him "The Coward" and how he would be fed to Mother.

7. We killed the dragon and the Bolds, and the Coward was very much ready to leave our presence, no one spoke up to talk to him so I used my Conjurer to do so, he sucks at diplomacy I just asked the basics, he said that "The Half Breed is the Chosen one, and you'd best turn back now"

8. We took the Medium Dragon back to the Frost Giant he skinned it for us we went back.

9. We meet more 'bolds in the cave slowly work our way through them but my Conjurer dies, we pick up our selves and head out to see about resurrecting him.

10. We're told no one is around to cast such a powerful divine spell and the nearest town is two weeks away. We bury my conjurer.

11. We head back to the camp one more time, find the Frost Giant and one hell of an Ugly Goliath (my, C/N Barbarian/Fighter), he gives them the following orders or refuses to go with us, because he was drunk off his ass the night before when he woke up and the camp had a bunch of strangers he freaked out. (this next part was on purpose to encourage some RPing.)

1. The first thing I need to go over with all of yis is that we need to be prepared. Like I told ya, my full giant friend here tells me of a huge white dragon that has kicked him out of his home and I don’t think ya found it, because I wouldn’t be speaking to all yis now if it was. If you want me to risk my neck for you, we’re going to have to be prepared. I assume the wee man that was with ya, had a few coin in his purse now didn’t he?
a. Well then, why don’t we go back to the town and use that extra money and get potions and other tools of the trade to keep us alive. I ain’t afraid of no dragon but I haven’t lived this long by going in unprepared.
b. IF THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT MONEY – Is this how your friend would have wanted it? Being nit picky about every god damn coin?
c. IF THEY MAKE A COMMENT – Good riddance then, if he were here, I’d probably already kill him on general principle!
2. The next thing is, I don’t think it is conin, coin, cowince….I DON’T THINK IT IS fate that you just happen to be here. I also don’t think yous are up here out of the goodness of your hearts. What was promised to all of yis?
a. Was the wee man promised as well?
a.i. Then I expect if I ante my life for you, that all of yis put in the good world so I can walk away with some treasure as well!
3. The last thing is my friend has gone missing. His name is Goldbeard, hes my lion. He is smarter than you or I and I bet he figure this out already and went ahead. I told that damn lion not to go off on his own. Told him that he may think he's the grand king fish 'round these here parts but he's got books shoved so far up his arse he can fart the alphabet in more languages than I have fingers.
a. Oh sure, he's an arrogant, smart arse, snobbish companion, but he's MY arrogant, smart arse, snobbish COMPANION!!
b. For every hair I find missing from Gold beards mane, I’m going to take every scaly cold blooded freak and put its head on a stick and beat it out of the whore of a flying lizard in trade.
Do these three things for me, and we shall fight for our victory.
Do it not, and every last one of you will die in that cave.
Now, I’ve got to get packed up and go on my way, you can think about it while I’m doing that.

12. Well, we found the Half Breed who turned out to be a half dragon, we also found a kohbold priest behind a secret door that was very unhappy we found them, we killed them both, and as soon as we did, DM tells us we feel a blast of cold air from the tunnels, and there is a Huge Dragon Yelling for our heads for killing her baby.

13. Present Day, killed dragon, I took its head. Frost Giant is pleased with us and says we can use this cave as a save haven when ever we need.

14. We're on our way back to report about the Intel on the draconic book we found as per their request.


So, that's the spots in which there has been a chance to talk.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, it seems to me the party has acquired a pretty mixed record. On the one hand, you've spared some people that cooperated. On the other hand, you seem to have slaughtered some creatures (perfectly normal for this kind of game), and in particular killed several dragons. While killing evil dragons will improve relations with good dragons, it will worsen them with evil dragons, and dragons and kobolds will probably look at the party members as unreliable and dangerous.

Not much you can do about that. It's pretty much standard D&D for the party to acquire a reputation and make enemies, since adventurers are pretty much characterized by rocking the boat.

If the player who wants Diplomacy wants to use it more successfully, that player should try to apply it in non-combat situations. Form alliances with other groups, exchange services with npc affiliations, and negotiate non-violent disputes (like trade disputes or such). This stuff isn't terribly interesting, but is a great way for the party to legitimize it's activities and secure future employment. While this Duke figure is a patron of sorts, it may be worth it for the party to try to secure additional allies, as nobility often recruit adventurers as a kind of insurance, allowing them to unofficially achieve their goals by using the party as a proxy.

Anyway, I hope it works out. Players that use Diplomacy as a springboard for good role playing by their character can add a great deal to a campaign, and usually turn out to be very interesting people, as well.

[Larrx]

As mentioned in previous posts, different DMs rule the use of social skills very differently. If your friend is simply looking for a mechanical way to avoid/defeat encounters than I may not be much help. It seems from the setting however, that there is a mystery to explore. Does the return of the chromatic dragons coincide with the return of the good dragons? Are the human nations the true threat? Diplomacy should let the character discuss issues such as these and perhaps get answers that will further the plot or influence PC goals.

That's a pure win in my opinion, and from what you've posted from your DM it seems like the sort of thing s/he'd enjoy. It might not be the sort of thing your friend is looking for though.

[NichG]

To go off of ericgrau's comment, another thing you could have Diplomacy do is to adjust the cost. For example:

Player: This is what I want from the other person (the white dragon). What do I need to offer to get what I want (rolls Diplomacy)?

DM: If you hit DC 20, you need to offer a party member's life in exchange. If you hit DC 30, you just need to offer the cost of a resurrection and to defeat a rival dragon. If you hit DC 40, you just need to offer either the resurrection cost or the defeat of the rival. If you hit DC 50, you just need to offer...

So basically, unless you fail to hit the minimal DC, you always get something of the form 'If I do X, I will get what I asked for'. Then its up to you and the party to decide whether to accept or reject the deal. Your roll was what it was, so you can't just keep retrying until you get the best result - it represents the final outcome of the negotiations.

To do this fully mechanically, each NPC that might be diplomacied needs to have a list of values (lets say an ordered list for sake of keeping it simple, with the possibility of gaps to represent 'really wants this' or 'really doesn't care about this'). A DC 20 check allows you to make a deal where you trade things that are adjacent in value. Every 10 you beat the DC by lets you go one step down the chart.

So e.g. the BBEG wants to conquer the world (#1 value), wants to be powerful (#3 value), wants to keep a deal he made with a demon for his soul (#4 value), wants to just actually manage to survive his circumstances (#5 value), wants to protect his allies/family/whatever (#5 value). If you want to convince him to give up his plans to conquer the world, you'd need to offer an alterate way for him to be comparably powerful and hit a DC 30 check. If you just want to convince him to give up an opportunity for power, you could offer to get his soul back and hit a DC 20 check.

[killem2]

I'm going to sit down with this player (I'm not the DM here), to try and help with a laundry list of possible ways to approach the duke.

Here is also what I as my character brought up. We have warbeast tiger, a war beast mule, A rather strong Half-Giant and likewise Goliath (I think I have a couple more points of STR). We have rope/chains/call item, and enough of them to last at least 14 hours.

Sure a huge dragon weighs 20,000 but we can drag nearly 26,000 or so. According to a wizard of the coast article, you basically are moving half speed, and I assume it would be of the slowest person (so me, at 15 ft), and one day travel you can get nearly 12 miles or something. I don't think we are that far away maybe we are.

But the point is, At least as my character, I want to show these people who I have not met that I'm the real deal, I didn't just bring you a book, here is the dragon who is causing the problem.

I'd like to help her mix that in to give some clout in what she can offer.

We're currently then working on what kind of things she could do with regards to the Duke and his counsel who sent us on this mission to further our relations.

[Vaz]

Diplomacy requires 'time' to enact, it's at least one minute. That makes it impossible to truly use diplomacy in combat, there simply isn't the time required.
You can Rush for -10, or Bind Naberius for no Penalty (got through a Feat, or a Binder Dip; hint Binder Dip and take Improved Binding) and do it as a Standard.

@NichG, I thought when you took a check, you stated the effect you wanted, and then either passed or failed?

The equivalent of Blackjack, stick or fold.

[killem2]

You can Rush for -10, or Bind Naberius for no Penalty (got through a Feat, or a Binder Dip; hint Binder Dip and take Improved Binding) and do it as a Standard.

@NichG, I thought when you took a check, you stated the effect you wanted, and then either passed or failed?

The equivalent of Blackjack, stick or fold.

I think that is the old rules isn't? :smallconfused:

[Pickford]

You can Rush for -10, or Bind Naberius for no Penalty (got through a Feat, or a Binder Dip; hint Binder Dip and take Improved Binding) and do it as a Standard.

@NichG, I thought when you took a check, you stated the effect you wanted, and then either passed or failed?

The equivalent of Blackjack, stick or fold.

No. Diplomacy requires opposed checks when someone has an opposing goal.

Edit: And where are you finding this 'rush' rule? I can't seem to locate it in the PHB for 3.5

[Debihuman]

She doesn't understand when to use Diplomacy. That's roleplaying vs. roll-playing. If she's a bit shy and doesn't like to initiate conversations (and I've been there), then the DM needs to set the stage for this and perhaps encourage her via the roll rather than the role. Her character is better at this than she is and a good DM will allow her to roll for things rather than make her roleplay them. It's not that difficult.

Not everyone is comfortable with roleplaying. As a DM, it's your job to make it better for those who are stuck. Pass her a note when you think she should be speaking up and let her roll for Diplomacy without making her roleplay it at least until she gets more comfortable.

Diplomacy: when she wants an answer to who, what, where, when, why and how. She goes to talk to a guard/bartender/other NPC about the creepy dude who came three days ago, or she tries to get an irate shopkeeper to lower his price.

Part of her issue might be she's overwhelmed and doesn't know who to ask. If that's it, give her choices.

Debby

[killem2]

She doesn't understand when to use Diplomacy. That's roleplaying vs. roll-playing. If she's a bit shy and doesn't like to initiate conversations (and I've been there), then the DM needs to set the stage for this and perhaps encourage her via the roll rather than the role. Her character is better at this than she is and a good DM will allow her to roll for things rather than make her roleplay them. It's not that difficult.


I do not know the intentions of my DM, but I don' t know if he requires roleplaying, I do think he kind of leaves us to our own devices.




Not everyone is comfortable with roleplaying. As a DM, it's your job to make it better for those who are stuck. Pass her a note when you think she should be speaking up and let her roll for Diplomacy without making her roleplay it at least until she gets more comfortable.

I can pass her a note, I don't the DM would at least not with out knowledge that he has been asked to do that. I feel she actually does want to role play, but also like a previous quote, WHEN it is ready to be used.



Diplomacy: when she wants an answer to who, what, where, when, why and how. She goes to talk to a guard/bartender/other NPC about the creepy dude who came three days ago, or she tries to get an irate shopkeeper to lower his price.

True that, I'll bring this up.



Part of her issue might be she's overwhelmed and doesn't know who to ask. If that's it, give her choices.

I'll ask her about it, it would probably be good if she talks with the DM too.

[nedz]

No. Diplomacy requires opposed checks when someone has an opposing goal.

Edit: And where are you finding this 'rush' rule? I can't seem to locate it in the PHB for 3.5

You're looking at the wrong rules — check the OP.

Besides this is a player coming of age question, which I doubt rules can help with.

[cerin616]

There isnt really a limit to how many times you can roll diplomacy. As long as you can keep talking, you can keep trying to be a diplomat. Until you get kicked out of the sitting room, the duke is going to hear you talk.

Now in the same breath, sometimes it isnt realistic to consider a diplomacy check as a way to do something.

Diplomcay is best seen as a way to convince someone your oppinion is the correct one.

Last thing, if your dm isnt a ****, and understands she is a new player, he might be willing to discuss with her the realistic use of diplomacy, or even be willing to answer "Is there any chance I can convince him otherwise?" mid game.

[NichG]

@NichG, I thought when you took a check, you stated the effect you wanted, and then either passed or failed?

The equivalent of Blackjack, stick or fold.

I'm posting suggested changes that might help players still use Diplomacy without it having the old problem of 'an optimized 6th level character can hit the highest DC possible to assign to any trade', the issue of no one at the table really knowing just what this character said to get someone to forgive the murder of their child, or the brittleness of a pass/fail system with a player who isn't on the same page as the DM about what is reasonable or not.

The idea is that you want to explicitly give the player the information they need to 'do justice to' their Diplomacy check. Then, if they still mess it up then they mess it up and thats that. If they do better with the information than you expected, thats fair game as well. But the skill ranks are still not 'wasted' since they are gaining access to leverage that would be impossible for someone without the Diplomacy skill to get (mostly because this leverage is created out of thin air in response to the check).

[nedz]

The social skills are always problematic. There are some people who dislike them for a number of reasons mainly being that you are creating a mechanic for things that could/should just be role-played.

My own preference is to make the roll, and then role-play the result. However: if the player lacks the confidence/ability to do this, then this won't work.

It's hard to know what to advise, but one thing which might work is if someone else can show how this can be played. This could even be an NPC. This is a case of providing a role-model for the player.

[Pickford]

You're looking at the wrong rules — check the OP.

Besides this is a player coming of age question, which I doubt rules can help with.

I still don't see it here:

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html

(the same link from the first post)

I tried doing a search for -10 and rushed, neither turned up anything related to increasing the speed of the check. (edit: I also scanned the article, didn't see anything along those lines)

[killem2]

I still don't see it here:

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html

(the same link from the first post)

I tried doing a search for -10 and rushed, neither turned up anything related to increasing the speed of the check. (edit: I also scanned the article, didn't see anything along those lines)

Yeah the rushed check is removed for sure, (basically nerfing it for combat.)