[3.5] Geomantic Grappler?

[Crasical]

Two questions.

1) A geomancer can pick up the Improved Trip, Improved Grab, Constrict, and Rake as Drifts. That means on a successful series of rolls, the target falls prone, is grappled and takes damage from constriction, and on all subsequent turns maintaining the grapple causes them to take that original attack's damage and then 1d3 constriction and 1d4, 1d4 damage from Rake. not really a huge amount of damage, but is each portion of that considered a separate hit for triggering sneak attack damage and similar? If not, how would you optimize deathhugging the opponent with spells and items?

2) Since a Geomancer only advances one casting class, is there a way to splash in 2nd level divine or arcane casting via an ACF or feat to avoid having a vestigal dip in wizard or cleric?

[TaiLiu]

Hm. Would the Southern Magician feat work?

[avr]

If it uses an attack roll, it could trigger sneak attack. I think that rules in the rakes but not the constriction.

Get bigger is the standard optimisation rule for 3.5e grappling. Righteous might or enlarge person or polymorph or whatever.

If you can, some method to escape the grapple if you've underestimated your opponent (I'm a grappling specialist! I can take on the advanced kraken!) might be handy.

[Vaz]

Wizard 2/Druid 8/Geomancer 10

Requires Natural Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, Martial Study and Stance Feats to get Assassins Stance

All day long Wild Shape into Giant Octopus (Giant Croc is sadly too big, you need Druid 15).

Insane Hide Bonuses (+4 from Geomancer, Giant Octopus Racials), Two constrict sources of damage, innate bite attack, improved grapple checks with 8 tentacles, wolf trip on any natural attack which hits, deal continual damage through weasel attach, poison on a bite attack, and it can Fly, travelling at 60-200ft/round.

Each time it makes an attack it is also dealing +2d6 damagethanks to assassins stance, and possibly rake as well. VenomfirE as well on poison. Greater mighty wallop is a thing as well.

However, you will need to counter freedom of movement somehow.

[Fouredged Sword]

I want to mix in the giant size spell somehow.

Dusk blade 3+ something divine...

Spellstriking divine spells through the geomancer with cool +size buffs would be nice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A recent Iron chef competition used Geomancer as the SI, I don't remember exactly; but I'm pretty sure at least one entry went for a grappling focus. It might be worthwhile to check it out.

[mattie_p]

Vaz, if you are a sneak attack wildshaper, you want the savage grapple feat from Complete Adventurer. Adds sneak attack to every grapple check that does damage.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Octupus familiar (Stromwrack) gives +4 to grapple checks IIRC, that is a whole size cathegory right there! You can also advance enough wiz levels so you can get Dispel magic, get craft contigent spell and set it to Cast dispel magic when I grapple someone or something like that.

[The Viscount]

Hm. Would the Southern Magician feat work?

It would, as would entry by Sha'ir.

[Crasical]

Technically if Southern Magician works, you could also take Precocious Apprentice at 1st level as a wizard and have the casting requirements done at level 2.

Also, as you probably guessed by my questions about easy 'splashes' of alternative casting, I'm trying to enter Geomancer as quickly as possible, which kind of precludes wild-shaping UFO flying abduction squid tactics.

[A_S]

Fun fact: Whirling Blade counts as a melee attack, and therefore triggers Improved Grab to function as a ranged pull.

*edit*
A recent Iron chef competition used Geomancer as the SI, I don't remember exactly; but I'm pretty sure at least one entry went for a grappling focus. It might be worthwhile to check it out.

One of them was mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14561181&postcount=149).

[Crasical]

Come to mention it, do I even keep my Drifts when in another form? That kind of puts the kibosh on Wild Shape and Polymorph shenanigans, doesn't it?


EDIT: Oh geeze. I'm scared now. If I enter Geomancer by Sorcerer 1 with Southern Magician and Precocious Apprentice, then four levels of Paladin, that delays my entry until 6, the usual time to start getting a prestige class, but lets me pick up Battle Blessing and Divine Metamagic, applied to the Sorcerer list...?

[Keld Denar]

Yes. You could use Geomancer to treat your Sorc spells as divine, then DMM them with your TU attempts from Pally4. You are 4 caster levels behind (2 whole spell levels), but persisting a Greater Blink is pretty darn smexy.

[123456789blaaa]

Lo Kag Rootwatcher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14561212&postcount=155) was a grappling Sha'ir Geomancer submitted by OMG Ponies for the IC contest. I think it's a really nice build.

Surreal also had a really nice Totemist/Nentyar Hunter/Suel Arcanamach/Geomancer build for IC 4 that could easily be turned into a grappler with some different soulmeld and Drift choices:

Name: Peasmiil

Illumian Totemist 6/Nentyar Hunter 3/Suel Arcanamach 3/Geomancer 8

***No gear, no buffs, no soulmelds ||| with minimal gear/buffs/soulmelds***
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 6d8 + 3d6 + 3d8 + 8d6 + Con = 81 + 60 -20 (quick) = 121 hp ||| 201 hp
Initiative: +1 ||| +4
Speed: 55' ||| 85'
Armor Class: 11, Touch: 11, Flat-footed: 10 ||| AC = 31 = 10 + 10 (armor) + 4 (Dex) + +5 (barkskin) +2 (RM)
Base Attack/Grapple/Trip: 15/19/19 ||| 15/ 33 / 35
Attack: +15 ||| +29
Full Attack: 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 stinger ||| plus whatever else you get with soulmelds
Space/Reach: 5'/5' ||| 10'/10'
Special Abilities/Qualities: always literate, wild empathy, woodland stride, swift tracker, swiftness of the stag, tenacious spells, dispelling strike, extended spellstrength, ignore ASF 5%, drift 4, spell versatility 7, ley lines +2
Saves: base 11/9/9 ||| 24/19/19
Abilities: Str 16 (21 w/levels), Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10 ||| Str 36, Dex 18, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills: (4+1)*23 = 115 total;
Feats: see below
Flaws/Traits: Shaky, Vulnerable, Quick, Detached
Environment: forest
Alignment: non-evil
Languages Spoken:
Level Adjustment: +0

Feats:
F: track (prereq)
F: Confused open
otyugh hole: iron will (prereq)
1 alertness (prereq)
3 combat casting (prereq)
6 multiattack
9 double chakra
12 open lesser chakra - retrain to practiced spellcaster when we can cast the spell
15 battle jump
18 ?open greater chakra


Skill Tricks:
any relevant movement ones (climb, jump, charge, etc)


Possessions:
Mithril Breastplate +5
Cloak of Resistance +6
Belt of Magnificence +6
a couple Metamagic Rods of Extend
Necklace of Natural Weapons +1 Valorous for ? weapons
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5


Soulmelds:
Sphinx Claws (hands) - for pounce
Girallon Arms (totem) - 4 claws
whatever


Buffs active in stat block above:
Barkskin
Righteous Might
Expeditious Retreat


Spells known (Nentyar Hunter): **use Geomancer versatility: use Suel parameters, get extended duration and high CL**
1: barkskin, cure light wounds, detect magic, detect poison, entangle, jump, light, pass without trace, magic missile, snare, speak with animals, true strike
2: Aganazzar's Scorcher, blur, cure moderate wounds, gust of wind, moonbeam, neutralize poison, remove disease, resist elements, speak with plants, tree shape
3: cure serious wounds, freedom of movement, greenfire, invisibility, keen edge, moon blade, quench, see invisibility, wind wall
4: break enchantment, commune with nature, control winds, force orb, greater magic weapon, tree stride, wall of thorns
5: find the path, flame strike, healing circle, moon path, righteous might


Spells known (Suel Arcanamach): Caster Level 17 (base 9 + 2 Illumian + 2 ley lines + 4 prac)
1 (4): expeditious retreat, free, free, free
2 (4): heroics, wraithstrike. free, free
3 (3): free, free, free
4 (2): open least chakra, free
5 (2): free, free


Spells per Day: add bonus spells based on Strength (Illumian Aeshkrau sigil)
Nentyar Hunter/Suel Arcanamach
1: 3/4
2: 3/4
3: 2/3
4: 2/2
5: 1/1


Character background:
N/A


Pre-combat:
cast open lesser chakra a couple times (extend to last two or more days), bind whatever you feel like for the day
buff up with long duration spells


Combat:
move, jump, battle jump triggers charge, charge triggers pounce, slashy slashy, every attack trips at +35, can't be tripped in return, valorous doubles damage
standard silliness: heroics for power attack, pounce with wraithstrike with full power attack
assuming conservative 8 attacks, full power attack (15)...
... 1d4 + 13 (str) + 15 (PA) ~ 30 per attack, 8 attacks, valorous & battle jump... ~ 720 without considering anything else


Levels 1-6:
- straight Totemist, nothing overly fancy here

Levels: 7-10:
- grab Nentyar Hunter 2 and Suel Arcanamach 2
- still essentially playing a totemist with a few buffs


Levels 11-20:
- fill out the remainder with Geomancer 8/NH +1/SA +1
- Geomancer's spell versatility now let's us cast in heavier armor for SA spells, and use the higher CL and get extended durations for NH buffs
- alternatively drop NH 3 (which gives +10 speed) for Geomancer 9
- cold potentially drop SA 3 as well, since we're primarily aiming for long duration buffs anyways
- each level essentially brings more spells and natural weapons
- battle jump becomes a reliable way to boost damage when the buffs start spiking the jump check


Other notes:
- Nentyar Hunter fills the weapons prereq for Suel Arcanamach
- Totemist and NH fulfill most of the skill prereqs, use the cityscape web enhancement to get tumble
- buffing jump should be relatively easy: high speed, jump spell, soulmelds, etc
- Illumian: reduced MAD (makes bonus spells based off Str for both NH and SA), remain literate despite Totemist
- haste actually doesn't help that much, and the duration is short
- I absolutely hate dipping Lion-totem barbarian for pounce
- a grappling build is actually feasible here with soulmelds and geomancer (which can get constrict and improved grab), but then that involves mixing grappling rules with natural attacks, which makes the baby Pun-pun cry
- there are two empty feat slots; you can either build towards a lancer (and use heroics to get anything else) or do whatever else you feel like; I'm tempted to do shape soulmeld just for versatility

[Crasical]

Lo-Kag also seems to be assuming that Polymorph and Shapechange are still on the table and will stack with his Drifts, which I'm not really convinced is true anymore. Otherwise it's a neat as hell build, I must say.

[A_S]

Come to mention it, do I even keep my Drifts when in another form? That kind of puts the kibosh on Wild Shape and Polymorph shenanigans, doesn't it?

Wild Shape doesn't work, but Polymorph inherits some useful text from Alter Self:


You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

Drift is (Ex) and from class levels, so it stays.

[Crasical]

Wild Shape doesn't work, but Polymorph inherits some useful text from Alter Self:
Drift is (Ex) and from class levels, so it stays.

Ooooh. Thanks, A_S!


Also, opinions: In the paladin/Sorcerer setup I was considering above, do you think dropping Turn Undead for Mystic Fire Knight levels and full caster-level once you're into Geomancer is worth it? Or should I just take Practiced Spellcaster instead?

[WhatBigTeeth]

I'd be tempted to stick a shaman into it.

It has Polymorph, Divine Power, Giant Size, DMM, Anyspell/Miracled sorc/wiz spells and bonus unarmed feats all going its way. Probably some more gems too, depending if and how you allocate spell compendium materials beyond the domains.

[Crasical]

Further polymorph question: The SRD mentions that an Annis Hag "commonly uses its disguise self ability to take the form of an exceptionally tall human, a fair giant, or an ogre."

Does this means with a Hat of Disguise I can transform into a large-sized creature, then disguise myself as 'merely' a human of amazonian stature?

[Piggy Knowles]

Worth noting, the FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) has ruled against Southern Magician working. Yes, the FAQ has been known to contradict the actual rules in the past, so take this as you will. Relevant text follows:



Can a wizard with the Southern Magician feat qualify for prestige classes that require you to be able to cast a divine spell?

The Southern Magician feat does not allow you to cast divine spells per se. It only allows you to change the spells into divine spells once they have been cast. Thus, you won’t qualify for prestige classes that require you to be able to cast a divine spell. The Southern Magician feat only gives the bonuses specifically listed in the feat’s description.


(p44, if you're interested.)

The Alternate Source Spell feat should explicitly work, although it's a Dragon Magazine feat.

EDIT: The FAQ also mentions Precocious Apprentice the previous page, although it's much less strongly worded. Instead of saying something does or does not work, as in the majority of the FAQ, the answer is, "In the Sage's opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells."

[Crasical]

Worth noting, the FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) has ruled against Southern Magician working. Yes, the FAQ has been known to contradict the actual rules in the past, so take this as you will. Relevant text follows:



(p44, if you're interested.)

The Alternate Source Spell feat should explicitly work, although it's a Dragon Magazine feat.

EDIT: The FAQ also mentions Precocious Apprentice the previous page, although it's much less strongly worded. Instead of saying something does or does not work, as in the majority of the FAQ, the answer is, "In the Sage's opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells."

Er.... "does not allow you to cast divine spells per se. It only allows you to change the spells into divine spells once they have been cast"? That's a really fine distinction being drawn there...

Hm. If Precocious Apprentice doesn't work, three levels more of Sorcerer won't exactly kill the build, but it does delay getting into Geomancer a bit further than I really like. More troubling is if Southern Magician doesn't work, which kind of pidgeonholes the entry into Sha'ir entry, and the peculiar flavor of that class...

EDIT: Actually, if I'm remembering my Sha'ir teammate correctly, they have to use a diplomacy check to retrieve spells, don't they? Which makes it fall under the 'Chance' of casting a 2nd level spell that the Precocious Apprentice text warns against.

[Keld Denar]

Also, opinions: In the paladin/Sorcerer setup I was considering above, do you think dropping Turn Undead for Mystic Fire Knight levels and full caster-level once you're into Geomancer is worth it? Or should I just take Practiced Spellcaster instead?

Turn Undead is one of the single most powerful class features outside of spellcasting due to how many different powers and abilities it can be used to power. Do not, under any circumstances, EVER give it up, unless you are somehow getting it back from some other source (like Sacred Exorcist or similar).

[Crasical]

Turn Undead is one of the single most powerful class features outside of spellcasting due to how many different powers and abilities it can be used to power. Do not, under any circumstances, EVER give it up, unless you are somehow getting it back from some other source (like Sacred Exorcist or similar).

What feats would you recommend, then?

[Keld Denar]

Divine Might is almost always a winner. Requires Power Attack, which 9/10 melee builds will have anyway. Divine Vigor is a little lackluster, but Divine Shield can be a winner if you have an Animated Shield.

I'd just go with Divine Metamagic. With Geomancer's unique ability to mix and match divine and arcane, you'd be foolish not to try to DMM some killer Wiz spells like Wraithstrike or Greater Invisible or such.

[Crasical]

So, my terrible terrible character building senses tell me it breaks down somewhere like this?


Southern Magician and Precocious Apprentice approved

Human Sorcerer 1, Southern Magician/Precocious Apprentice
Paladin 1
Paladin 2, ????
Paladin 3
Paladin 4
Geomancer 1 Battle Blessing


Precocious Apprentice allowed, Southern Magic banned
Sorcerer 1 Precocious Apprentice
Sorcerer 2
Paladin 1 ?????
Paladin 2
Paladin 3
Paladin 4 Alternate Spell Source
Geomancer 1
Geomancer 2
Geomancer 3 Battle Blessing

Precocious apprentice banned, southern magic allowed.
Human Sorcerer 1 ??? ???
Sorcerer 2
Sorcerer 3 ???
Sorcerer 4
Paladin 1
Paladin 2 Southern Magic
Paladin 3
Paladin 4
Geomancer 1 Battle Blessing

Precocious Apprentice Banned, Southern Magic banned

Paladin 1 ???
Paladin 2
Paladin 3 ???
Paladin 4
Sorcerer 1
Sorcerer 2 Alternate Spell Source
Sorcerer 3
Sorcerer 4
Geomancer 1 Battle Blessing


That.... rapidly gets less and less elegant. And if Alternate Spell Source and Southern Magic are both disallowed it doesn't really work at all within a reasonable time frame.

[Vaz]

Come to mention it, do I even keep my Drifts when in another form? That kind of puts the kibosh on Wild Shape and Polymorph shenanigans, doesn't it?


EDIT: Oh geeze. I'm scared now. If I enter Geomancer by Sorcerer 1 with Southern Magician and Precocious Apprentice, then four levels of Paladin, that delays my entry until 6, the usual time to start getting a prestige class, but lets me pick up Battle Blessing and Divine Metamagic, applied to the Sorcerer list...?

Try this one on for size.

Wu Jen 1/Archivist 1/Geomancer 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 1

Versatile Spellcaster Shenanigans, Archivist Shenanigans, liberal wording abuse (fully RAW) allowing you to have Miracle as a 2/day SLA, Persisto-mancy with a Body Outside Body horde (who can Miracle 2/day SLA), Battle Blessing active to treat all Spells as Paladin Spells. You're a one man Team Solar.

Essentially, EVERY single spell in the entire game bar ~25 IIRC, all affected by Battle Blessing.

[Crasical]

Try this one on for size.

Wu Jen 1/Archivist 1/Geomancer 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 1

Versatile Spellcaster Shenanigans, Archivist Shenanigans, liberal wording abuse (fully RAW) allowing you to have Miracle as a 2/day SLA, Persisto-mancy with a Body Outside Body horde (who can Miracle 2/day SLA), Battle Blessing active to treat all Spells as Paladin Spells. You're a one man Team Solar.

Essentially, EVERY single spell in the entire game bar ~25 IIRC, all affected by Battle Blessing.

Yikes. Better question then: What would you guys allow in your game?