Mechanics of Flurry with 2+ arms. Sorry.

[SolioFebalas]

Sorry for the old topic, but I read all I could find, and did't understand it. If it is not difficult please answer briefly and concisely how it should look like. Only if you know without assumptions.

And now the question. Do not throw stones at once.:smallfrown:

How would be looking the flurry of blows with tri-kreen 4 arms and all feats like 'multi'.

Thanks in advance.

[Pickford]

Sorry for the old topic, but I read all I could find, and did't understand it. If it is not difficult please answer briefly and concisely how it should look like. Only if you know without assumptions.

And now the question. Do not throw stones at once.:smallfrown:

How would be looking the flurry of blows with tri-kreen 4 arms and all feats like 'multi'.

Thanks in advance.

This is covered in the wotc FAQ.

find the whole FAQ here: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

Your specific question answered as:

It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural
weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk
weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry
isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra
attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry,
and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks
from your base attack bonus. Please note that a vampire monk
using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and
cannot drain energy.

Bolded for emphasis. Natural weapons can't be used with flurry of blows, so you would only get the attacks from your BAB + flurry.

[Jigokuro]

There is another thread on this same thing going on right now, and the answer there is quite different. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15238461
It is noteworthy that UrPriest is the expert on monstrous PCs; though that rules quote above seems fairly clear, it only says manufactured monk weapons not unarmed strikes, so maybe that is why it is different. I'm in no state to say currently: I'm super tired.:smallsigh:

[Pickford]

There is another thread on this same thing going on right now, and the answer there is quite different. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15238461
It is noteworthy that UrPriest is the expert on monstrous PCs; though that rules quote above seems fairly clear, it only says manufactured monk weapons not unarmed strikes, so maybe that is why it is different. I'm in no state to say currently: I'm super tired.:smallsigh:

Right and manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes are the only options when flurrying.

[Darrin]

How would be looking the flurry of blows with tri-kreen 4 arms and all feats like 'multi'.


First, there are some rules kinks to work out. The D&D FAQ says you can mix Flurry of Blows with Two-Weapon Fighting (and hence Multi-Weapon Fighting), but some DMs don't allow this, and some people don't consider the FAQ a reliable rules authority, since it doesn't count as RAW (Rules As Written) or official errata. Even if your DM allows this, the penalties stack: -2 for Flurry, -2 for TWF/MWF, so -4 on pretty much all your attacks.

Second, the rules for Flurry say you're only allowed to attack with special monk weapons or unarmed strikes. It's not clear from either the PHB or the FAQ if this means you can add offhand strikes or natural weapons *after* your Flurry attacks, or if the restrictions on Flurry apply to all attacks you make on your turn. You'll need to consult your DM on this one.

So, assuming your DM has approved Flurry + TWF/MWF, and even if we're restricted to special monk weapons, there are a couple ways to do this:

A) Improved Unarmed Strike + Multiweapon Fighting. Put a kama (or some other light special monk weapon) in each claw. This gives you iterative attacks with your unarmed strike and three offhand kama attacks. Assuming a Thri-Kreen with 9 levels of Monk, your flurry is normally +8/+8/+3 (+2 BAB from racial HD). Add MWF with three kamas and your full attack should look something like:

unarmed#1 +6/unarmed#2 +6/kama#1 +6/kama#2 +6/kama#3 +6/unarmed#3 +1

BAB isn't quite high enough for Improved Multiweapon Fighting (from Savage Species), but once you have BAB +9, you could add that for another three offhand kama attacks at a -7 penalty.

B) Improved Unarmed Strike + Unorthodox Flurry (from Dragon Compendium). This allows you to designate your claws as a special monk weapon, and then you can use them in a flurry. Improved Unarmed Strike frees up all four claws to become secondary attacks, and they get a -5 penalty on top of the -2 Flurry penalty, but the -2 TWF/MWF penalty doesn't apply to secondary natural attacks. Again, assuming a Thri-Kreen with 9 levels of monk, Flurry is normally +8/+8/+3, but with four secondary claw attacks, your full attack progression should look something like:

unarmed#1 +8/unarmed#2 +8/unarmed#3 +3/claw#1 +3/claw#2 +3/claw#3 +3/claw#4 +3

You can use Multiattack (Monster Manual) to reduce the secondary attack penalty to -2, or Improved Multiattack (Savage Species) to get rid of it entirely.


Now, if you want iteratives + three offhand attacks + four claw attacks... this is a bit difficult to pull off, but if we replace three levels of monk with three levels of Shou Disciple (from Unapproachable East), then you can flurry with any light martial weapon. So, Thri-Kreen with Monk 6/Shou Disciple 3, Improved Unarmed Strike + MWF + Unorthodox Flurry, add three Elbow Blades (from Complete Scoundrel, -2 attack penalty for hidden weapon), and assuming Monk 6/Shou Disciple 3 has the same Flurry progression as a Monk 9 (+8/+8/+3, +2 from racial HD), we can get up to 10 attacks:

unarmed#1 +6/unarmed#2 +6/elbow#1 +4/elbow#2 +4/elbow#3 +4/unarmed#3 +1/claw#1 +1/claw#2 +1/claw#3 +1/claw#4 +1

Add one more +1 BAB and Improved Multiweapon Fighting, and you could get four more elbow blade attacks for a total of 13 attacks.

[SolioFebalas]

Many thanks for the clear and detailed answer.

[Keld Denar]

Darrin is mostly right. Kreen would only get 3 offhand attacks, though. Number of offhand attacks is always 1 less than total number of limbs normally capable of wielding weapons. Humans have 2, so 2-1=1 offhand. Mariliths have 6, so 6-1=5 offhands. If you designate your UAS as your mainhand, you could wield 4 weapons, but you could only attack with 3 of them just the same with a character with a sword in each hand and armor spikes is wielding 3 weapons, but only allowed to attack with 2 of them.

[Darrin]

Darrin is mostly right. Kreen would only get 3 offhand attacks, though. Number of offhand attacks is always 1 less than total number of limbs normally capable of wielding weapons.

Thanks for catching that. It appears I need to re-examine my understanding of Multiweapon Fighting.

Ok, I edited my post so there are only three offhand attacks. Unarmed strike (primary) + four secondary claw attacks still works. And you don't have to be a Thri-Kreen to do that... Totemist 2 with the Girallon Arms soulmeld can get four secondary claw attacks. Add Double Chakra + Lamia Belt and you can get up to six.

[JusticeZero]

I assume the fact that monk unarmed explicitly does not use a hand doesnt alter that math.

[Darrin]

I assume the fact that monk unarmed explicitly does not use a hand doesnt alter that math.

MWF rules says that one hand is still considered a "primary", even if they aren't technically using it as their primary attack. Or rather, as Keld puts more succinctly, your total number of offhands is one less than your total hands available.

[Pickford]

I missed this in the FAQ, apparently though you can't use the natural weapons as 'part' of the flurry, if in a full attack you could use both weapon and natural weapons, you can 'after the flurry' make the natural weapons attacks, though they suffer the penalty from flurrying.

From the FAQ:

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can
he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed
(plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof
attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).