Monster Advice

[Ardantis]

So, I'm starting a new game, and I'm using miniatures for the second time. The first time, we used "Heroclix," but they looked like superheroes and ruined the mood/legitimacy of the game.

I've recently got my hands on some Wizards and some PF miniatures, but I've never faced or used some of the monsters in my campaigns. Any advice on them?

We're playing PF (Core) with 4 players- an archer fighter, a cleric, a rogue, and probably a wizard. The goal is to get from level 1 to level 6 by the end of the summer (with Toughness as a free bonus feat) 3.5 experience with these beasties would also be appreciated.

Yeti- are they as beastly as they look for CR 4? Assuming a snowy environment, is a single Yeti a boss fight for a 4th level party?

Chimera- CR 6 breath weapon flyer. How scary are they?

Ghast- PF says that they are probably CR 3 (although listed at 2), but with AC 18, three attacks, DC 15 stench and DC 15 paralysis, are they a boss fight?

My mook miniatures are skeletons and cultists. I'm gonna buy a few more packs to see what I get (hopefully some goblins at least), but this is what I've grabbed for big fights.

[Zombimode]

Yeti- are they as beastly as they look for CR 4? Assuming a snowy environment, is a single Yeti a boss fight for a 4th level party?

Hm, maybe there is a misunderstanding on what CR means. CR X means that a party of 4 level X characters will be moderately challenged, in so much that they can reasonably handle 4 of such encounter per day.

When you say "boss fight" I understand that you want something more then moderately challenging. For boss fights, you can (in theory) go as high as CR X+4. For a nice boss fight for a level 4 party, I would pick a suitable CR 6 or CR 7 monster. Suitable means capable to engage a whole party by its own. Glass canon monster are usually a poor choice, as are monster with no ability to affect more then one target.


Chimera- CR 6 breath weapon flyer. How scary are they?

Reasonable. They can fly and have a ranged attack, and their full attack is nice. It doesn't have much in terms of defenses besides its HP. I would say its a quite balanced monster.

[Ardantis]

Thank you for your response.

So what you're saying is that the Chimera, a CR 6 monster, might be a challenging encounter for a 4th level party? With flying, range, and its aforementioned solid full attack, but lack of defenses, that sounds about right. Out-damaging the Chimera is the key, and with our archer fighter this would be feasible (although the Chimera might just run away).

The yeti, therefore, is an easy encounter on his own for a 4th level party, unless there are more than one. He's a challenging encounter for a 2nd level party.

With his stealth abilities in snow, would a single yeti severely outmatch a level 2 party (assuming he suceeds at an ambush)?

So that leaves the Ghast, who is (presumably) a challenging (to very challenging) fight for a level 1-2 party. I think with some skeletons he'd be an appropriate level 2 challenge.

The cultists would probably pad out either the Yeti or the Chimera encounter.

I need to buy more figurines.

[Phelix-Mu]

Thank you for your response.

So what you're saying is that the Chimera, a CR 6 monster, might be a challenging encounter for a 4th level party? With flying, range, and its aforementioned solid full attack, but lack of defenses, that sounds about right. Out-damaging the Chimera is the key, and with our archer fighter this would be feasible (although the Chimera might just run away).

The yeti, therefore, is an easy encounter on his own for a 4th level party, unless there are more than one. He's a challenging encounter for a 2nd level party.

With his stealth abilities in snow, would a single yeti severely outmatch a level 2 party (assuming he suceeds at an ambush)?

So that leaves the Ghast, who is (presumably) a challenging (to very challenging) fight for a level 1-2 party. I think with some skeletons he'd be an appropriate level 2 challenge.

The cultists would probably pad out either the Yeti or the Chimera encounter.

I need to buy more figurines.

Be careful with adding numbers to the ranks of the enemy. Once the number of enemies nears or exceeds the number of people in the party, then, especially at low levels, the luck factor will start to weigh in more heavily against the party. Also, the tanks in the party have to block all of the enemies from getting to the back row of the party (assuming a classic party makeup of front-row melee combatants and back row casters and ranged characters), and being outnumbered or close to outnumbered can make occupying all of the enemies very difficult.

The idea with the ghast + skeletons is a good place to start. A setup of one tough critter with a small contingent of weaklings is pretty safe, though there is still an increased chance that one of the enemies rolls lucky and lands some hard hits. But such is life.:smallsmile:

[Ardantis]

Thanks for weighing in on the Ghast encounter. I have five skeleton models- so, perhaps 3 at most for the Ghast encounter (to not overwhelm the party) and then two more for another fight. That's good advice about the # of enemies and I appreciate it.

Still no response on the Yeti question. Are Yetis that dangerous? Are they more or less dangerous than, say, a Minotaur, which has the same CR? Why or why not?

[yougi]

I need to buy more figurines.

That is what they want you to think.

Seriously, after spending lots of money I didn't have to build a minis collection, I've come to the realisation that paper tokens a la 4E work much better, are easier to get, and of course, cheaper.

To answer your questions, chimera is CR7, and a rather solid one. I personally am always against sending a single enemy at my PCs, as action economy always ends up winning out. Instead of sending the chimera to a level 4 party, what about teaming it up with a rider or a bunch of fodder on the ground with reach to keep your PCs from using their ranged attacks without causing AoOs, and sending it against a level 6 party? Bonus points if the minions are immune to the chimera's breath.

Same for the Yeti, which could be teamed with a Winter Wolf, and the Ghast, maybe with Ghouls or even its master, a 4th level Cleric.

Regarding the Cultists, it's not a bad idea to team them up with either encounters, but you have to think of a reason why. Maybe the Yeti is attacking Cultists when the PCs run into them. Maybe the Cultists are setting up an ambush for the PCs, and their master, the aforementionned Cleric, has its pet Ghast with him, the smell of which can tip the PCs about the ambush.

[turbo164]

You can also "bossify" the Yeti by giving it a level or two in Barbarian or something. Or by adding basic monster advancement hit dice.

It's good to keep a mix of fights vs single tough monsters vs fights with multiple weaker monsters (and/or a CR6 boss with some CR2 minions). This gives more players a chance to shine; crowds of weaklings make AOE casters, Cleave melee'rs, and people with Damage Reduction happy, while the 120 hp behemoths give the "bucket of dice" Sneak Attackers/Chargers/Mailmen happy.

So however you end up organizing this fight, feel free to switch it up for the next one.

[Duboris]

A yeti with 2 bonus levels in barbarian is going to hit like a freight train and chill whatever it touches, especially if, for the barbarian levels, you give it elemental rager.

You would literally have to make a mission *around* said yeti, and give them a heads up, otherwise a level 4 fighter is going to get pulped.

[ArcturusV]

The problem with the Yeti is the fight would be very swingy, depending on how round 1 goes. Least that's my experience with similar creatures with similar parties.

Since it's built for stealth and some bruiser power, it means that either it succeeds on its stealth (likely unless your party has access to something like Scent, or other options typically too high level for you to have), and someone is going to get mauled, badly. Or that it fails, is detected, and for all the trouble they might have run into a single Winter Wolf for all the memorable experience and difficulty it was for the party.

Even presuming the best case, for the Yeti... it is gonna die horribly. No real chance at victory. Even if it succeeded on its stealth, and attacked at night when only one character was on watch, and got to maul them pretty bad while the party woke up. It's going down. It's even doubtful that it'll meaningfully impact the player it mauls unless you kitbash a bit a do something like give it a disease or something that it inflicted on the unlucky player.

When something like the Yeti works, is when you have a number of them, over time. One yeti is something that momentarily will scare the one player it ambushes and surprises. When the players put down that one yeti, and find 3 more have been attracted to the scent of blood on the snow... it starts to get scarier.

On the subject of minis? I never felt them all that integral to the process. If you need visual aids it's easy to improvise. Get something like a penny out of your pocket for a small creature. A nickle for a medium. Quarter for a Large. Salt shaker for something colossal, etc. But if you see value in it? I'd probably suggest looking into Mage Knight. Last time I was into minis, they were the cheapest on the block. Fits the fantasy flavoring of DnD. Despite being cheap, they already came painted and were robust enough that you weren't going to have to worry about them falling apart unless you were REALLY, REALLY hard on your figures.

[Sylthia]

I'm not sure if it would break your realism, but you don't have to use the plastic minis. You can use the cardboard markers that are sold at game shops or online, or just d12s or the like to mark monsters. I've even used Legos a few times to represent enemies. You are only limited by your imagination.

I'd recommend against only having one enemy fight against the party. It can work for some fights occasionally, but I've found many of the 4+vs1 fights to be somewhat boring. There's often not enough action economy for the fight to be truly balanced.


On the subject of minis? I never felt them all that integral to the process. If you need visual aids it's easy to improvise. Get something like a penny out of your pocket for a small creature. A nickle for a medium. Quarter for a Large. Salt shaker for something colossal, etc. But if you see value in it? I'd probably suggest looking into Mage Knight. Last time I was into minis, they were the cheapest on the block. Fits the fantasy flavoring of DnD. Despite being cheap, they already came painted and were robust enough that you weren't going to have to worry about them falling apart unless you were REALLY, REALLY hard on your figures.

Do those minis fit on a one inch grid?

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, should. If I remember the bases for them were 1 inch diameter circles. Might be larger for some of the rarer "bigger" creatures in there, but since the creatures they depict are also larger, shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[Ardantis]

OH my thank you for all the advice.

Here's what I've distilled from your posts:

1) It is perfectly acceptable to use odd minis.

I don't disagree, under normal conditions. I never used minis in college, but I wanted to try to use them to develop more tactical play. I tried them last campaign and liked the advantages they offered, but this particular group had a real hard time playing with my Heroclix superhero minis, which are high-quality but ruined the mood (didn't feel right). We were also playing E6 with homebrew classes, though, so that might have been some of the issue. Anyways, this is why I'm working so hard this game to use appropriate minis.

2) Action Economy Balance = Tactical Fun

This I can't disagree with, after considering the Playground's advice. "Boss Monsters" need to be part of "Boss Encounters" or they lose their effectiveness, both in storytelling and in tactical play.

That being said, here are the miniatures I have amassed so far (I've dropped less than 40 bucks so far, which is not bad at all as far as I'm concerned)

1 Chimera (large)
1 Yeti (large)
1 Ghast (medium)
1 Stone Giant (large)
1 Very Young Black Dragon (medium)
1 Lord (evil-looking knight/cleric with a torch) (medium)
3 Cultists
5 Skeletons
4 Heroes (Bard (female), War Chanter (male), Sorceress (female), Wizard(female elf))

What encounters could I build from these characters that would challenge my 4-man party at levels 1-6? Note I could re-use minis fight-to-fight, but may not use more than the minis I have per fight (1 Yeti per fight, for example).

Ex. Ghast + 3 skeletons as a lvl 2 encounter.

[yougi]

Well, the cultists and Lord can be many different things: the first could be a bunch of wizards, or just low level "commoners" (not the class, but the social level), the Lord culd be a cleric, a fighter, a black guard...

Here are a few (ELs assume Pathfinder, because Yeti):

EL8: Chimera and its master, a 6th level Wizard, who casts spells from the chimera's back. The wizard also has a robe of bones, and can can use it to send skeletons in the party's wizard's face. The chimera's breath being cold, the skeletons are unaffected.

EL7: A Blackguard (Warblade 6/Bg 1) is keeping watch over 3 kidnapped villagers he plans to sacrify to his dark gods. Within 3 rounds, 3 cultists (Rog2) come in to grab the villagers, and when they see the PCs, join the fight.

EL4: A 3rd level Cleric has just rebuked 4 skeletons, and is waiting for dusk in a cave so he can sneak them in town at night. The PCs either find him in a cave, or in the middle of the street in town, not far from his temple.

The first is a solid boss encounter for a 5th level party, the second for a 4th level party or a standard encounter for a 6th evel party, and the last one could be a regular encounter for a 3rd level party.

[hydraa]

A cheap way to get minis is to buy board games from garage sales and half-price books/ thrift stores.

I have a lord of the rings risk game that I use when I need to use a lot of mini's

[Gerrtt]

For minis I once bought an old, used copy of Heroquest on Amazon. For 8 dollars I got more goblins, skellies, zombies, mummies, evil looking knights, and more than I could shake a stick at. Not to mention that it's a great game all on it's own.

So, harvesting old board games or games that have minis you like can be a cheap way to build up a collection if you actually want to have minis.

I've also run a couple events at comic stores where the owner gave me a bunch for free, so I've got a fairly good pile of them laying around.

Another good game to pull some from would be Talisman. There are some great ones in there, but it'll likely cost you a little more.

[ksbsnowowl]

Good advice here, but there really is no better crack than that cheap Chinese plastic...

[Urpriest]

1 Chimera (large)
1 Yeti (large)
1 Ghast (medium)
1 Stone Giant (large)
1 Very Young Black Dragon (medium)
1 Lord (evil-looking knight/cleric with a torch) (medium)
3 Cultists
5 Skeletons
4 Heroes (Bard (female), War Chanter (male), Sorceress (female), Wizard(female elf))



Some thoughts:

Chimera looks fairly distinct, but can probably stand in for other Large magical quadrupeds in a pinch.
Yeti could probably also be a Minotaur, or an Ape (Dire or regular), or even an Ogre or other Large Giant.
Ghast can stand in for pretty much any Medium undead, especially more feral ones like Wights or Zombies. Could also be a normal Ghoul of course.
Stone Giant can be pretty much any Large Giant.
Very Young Black Dragon can be any of the Medium Black Dragons, or potentially some form of Spawn of Tiamat or the like. Could even sub in for a Crocodile or other Medium reptilian monster in a pinch.

Edit: Additionally, the Bard and the Warchanter will probably be quite useful. Bard minis tend to have light but unobtrusive armor and weapons, making them plausible stand-ins for lots of different classes.

[ksbsnowowl]

Yeti would also make a good troll or Ice Troll.

[Ardantis]

yougi-

Thank you for the explicit encounter ideas. I was pretty sure the "Lord" would work as several different characters, and your ideas are great. May I steal them? (especially the 1st one?)- although for that one I'll probably use the Sorceress model (no heavy armor).

Love the cleric and blackguard encounters, too, though, the minis will look perfect for them.

hydraa-

Out-swordsaged by Gertt. Sorry!

Gertt-

I have a copy of Heroquest, but my friend in Nashville has it. He's bringing it up later this month, and I will scrounge. Unfortunately, the scale is different- the heroes are a little bigger. Still a good idea though, especially for monsters.

ksbsnowowl-

TOTAL crack. ICE TROLL IS AWESOME (too high lvl for this party, though)

Urpriest-

Chimera looks like a Chimera, really.

Yeti could be an ape or giant (hill giant), but no way a minotaur (no horns or hooves).

Ghast makes a great Ghoul, Wight, or Zombie. He's standing tall, holding a bloody human hand and looks special(er), so I'd want to use him as a more "special" baddie, but it's flexible. It's a surprisingly good model.

The Stone Giant REALLY looks like a Stone Giant. I pulled it my last PF pack, and it's a really good model, very distinctly a Stone Giant.

Young and Juvenile Black Dragons are Medium, so awesome.

The only problem with the Bards (one looks like a stealth samurai, the other like a dual-wielding chainmail-wearing badass) is that they each have a sizeable mandolin strapped to their butts. I guess all my NPC uses for them will have a very obvious musical background.

How about this one:

Young Black Dragon (CR 7) and worshippers (2 cultists, Ranger 2) stalk the party through a marsh.

Boss fight for a lvl 5 party?

[ksbsnowowl]

yougi-

ksbsnowowl-

TOTAL crack. ICE TROLL IS AWESOME (too high lvl for this party, though)



Don't know about PF stats, but the Ice Trolls from Unapproachable East (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413b) are only CR 4.

[Sylthia]

How about this one:

Young Black Dragon (CR 7) and worshippers (2 cultists, Ranger 2) stalk the party through a marsh.

Boss fight for a lvl 5 party?

It really depends on your party, what is the CR of the worshipers? CR7 is meant to, by itself be a challenge for a Lvl 7 party of 4. If your party is well optimized, it could probably handle CR 7 pretty well, but depending on the CR of the rest of the enemies in that encounter, it will likely get bumped up to CR 8 or 9. Throwing a CR 4 levels above the party level could quite easily become overwhelming.

How has your party been handling CR=EPL encounters? Are they easy, or are they barely scraping by? I'd gradually increase the difficulty until you fid the sweet spot CR for your group, and not all encounters are as easy or difficult as they appear on paper.

[Ardantis]

K- Trolls are CR 7? I assumed you were talking about a PF variant or template that would be above CR 7, and probably too strong for the party. I'll look at UE, but I don't own it and I'm mostly using PF bestiary for now.

R- This thread began with a discussion on how CR worked, and I was led to believe that in Pathfinder, a CR 5 monster was considered a "daily" encounter for a party, and that CR X+4 was a "difficult" encounter (where X is party leve), depending on party optimization. So, I'm trying to design tougher fights, using big monsters at CR X+2 or so plus a few low-level baddies to keep the action economy fair for the monsters.

My campaign has not started yet, and for previously mentioned reasons, I am using minis, of which I currently have a limited supply. I'm asking for help in designing some CR-appropriate encounters using the minis I have available. I've had some great feedback so far, and would love to have a few more suggestions.

The best suggestions so far have been for a Chimera-riding Wizard encounter, a Ghast/Cultists encounter, and a Cleric+Skeletons encounter.

[ksbsnowowl]

K- Trolls are CR 7? I assumed you were talking about a PF variant or template that would be above CR 7, and probably too strong for the party. I'll look at UE, but I don't own it and I'm mostly using PF bestiary for now.
Click the link I provided before: the stats were posted on the Wizards site.

Though I can understand wanting to stick with PF stats, if there are some.

[Sylthia]

R- This thread began with a discussion on how CR worked, and I was led to believe that in Pathfinder, a CR 5 monster was considered a "daily" encounter for a party, and that CR X+4 was a "difficult" encounter (where X is party leve), depending on party optimization. So, I'm trying to design tougher fights, using big monsters at CR X+2 or so plus a few low-level baddies to keep the action economy fair for the monsters.

My campaign has not started yet, and for previously mentioned reasons, I am using minis, of which I currently have a limited supply. I'm asking for help in designing some CR-appropriate encounters using the minis I have available. I've had some great feedback so far, and would love to have a few more suggestions.

The best suggestions so far have been for a Chimera-riding Wizard encounter, a Ghast/Cultists encounter, and a Cleric+Skeletons encounter.

One thing Pathfinder did well was make CR easy to put encounters together. Since you haven't started yet, I'd definitely start at CR=APL. According to Paizo, the table goes...
Easy: APL-1
Average: APL
Challenging: APL+1
Hard: APL+2
Epic: APL+3

With a party of 4, once you get to APL+4, it gets into overwhelming encounter territory, unless they are very well optimized or the deck is stacked against the enemies.

A party is expected to be able to do four appropriate level encounters per day and have a pretty good chance for 100% survival. APL+4 would likely expend all of their resources and possibly kill at least one party member. Those types of battles can be nice for a story-arc cap, but if they do that regularly, it encourages the 15 minute adventure day.