Assassin (not the prc) help.

[Gharkash]

Hello playground.

New campaign, new character, new questions. The main one is: how do you go about making an interesting assassin, competent to hold his own ( for example straight rogue is a no-no)?

Sources are pretty much anything, but the DM will check out the characters, can't really say what will and won't pass. 28 point buy. No templates, starting level unknown, probably in the 10s. No flaws.

To elaborate, i need help in finding races, classes and feats to make a competent infiltrate/assassinate/escape character, in the likes of Agent 47. Any races or classes with an affinity for shadow are welcome ( for example i considered Swordsage with heavy Shadow Hand, but i want to see what else is out there). If possible no vancian magic. Psionics are welcome, but mostly as a dip.

Thanks in advance.

tl;dr: how do i assassin

[illyrus]

Changeling can be a decent race to pick for flavor not that you couldn't emulate the ability with a hat of disguise. For a hide in the shadows type really any class will do as long as you can probably neutralize your target in a round. Other types might be more interesting and restrictive for class choice but that might go against what you're wanting.

I think a lot will depend on your expected targets. Targets like aristocrats generally require much less work to kill once you're past their defenses then let's say a devil.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I recommend looking at these two handbooks if you haven't done so already:
The assassin handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0)

The rogue handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233)

Now, I know that you might not want to go with the assassin prc but both handbooks do bring up a lot generally good stuff for stealthy characters.

I think that a changeling factotum could be a pretty interesting base. Be anyone, do anything. You should be able to fool most people. The master of masks and chameleon (IIRC) prc:s can further strengthen that concept.

Really, it depends on what you mean when you say 'hold his own'. Is that just in a straight out melee fight, or should the character be someone who never needs to fight, just sneaks/talks his way past all obstacles and eliminates his target?

[Callin]

Dark Templete Whisper Gnome or Strongheart Halfling.

There is an assassin base class out there (afb Atm). Barring that you could do Swordsage. Just be sure to grab the Darstalker feat no matter what.

[Gharkash]

Thanks for the handbooks, i have given the assassin one a look, will read both. I have no info on possible targets, that is a shame. As for holding his own, i mean not useless in a straight fight, a guy that can kill face to face but does not want to.

Are changelings Eberron? If so they are out, sorry, forgot to mention FR, with little to no tolerance to stuff from other settings.

[Gildedragon]

Dark is pretty good, though getting it with a necklace of umbral metamorphosis is handy.

Dark Changeling swordsage-rogue (poison use)
Maybe a couple levels in chamaleon to boost your disguises...

Dark Kenku can get some ridiculous sneaks and with a couple levels in bard to get throw voice it's excellent for making distractions

There's the half dopelganger template from dr 313 I think

[DeusMortuusEst]

You might want to check out the melee killer gnome (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny_But_Youre_Dead_the_other_melee_Kille r_Gnome_for_your_pleasure) build as well.

[Gharkash]

Read most of the Assassin, Rogue and Poisons handbook. Has any one any experience with poisons? The guide says that after level 13 or so they are weak, and i am probably playing at that level and up.

Would you suggest a permanent or activated collar of get-the-dark-template? Also would you get the level adjustment if you get the template from the magic item?

I am probably going to go Swordsage, with a level or two in rogue for craven. Any thoughts?

[ArcturusV]

Well, the reasons the poisons are considered weak is typically the DCs are fairly low, that when players start getting around those levels and have something like +9 to their save just from Save bonuses and Stat Bonuses, nevermind things like magic items that boost saves, you start talking about needing things like a 5 on your roll to save versus poison.

Not to mention that at high levels spells like Neutralize Poison become trivial to have on call. That and few poisons are really "lethal" in what they do. The ones that are most lethal tend to be things like Drow Sleep Poison, because, well... if you fell a asleep in a fight you're probably going to end up dead.

Anyways, Assassin Suggestions. Since you want the role, and not the PrC necessarily, and are starting at higher levels, I'd probably suggest a Bard as a decent starting chassis. It has the skills you may need/want to be able to do what you need. Social skills, stealth skills, enough skill points to actually make it an option to have both. You have spellcasting as well. And while Bardic casting isn't the strongest list, the Enchantments and Illusions are very useful for that "get in, get out" mission style. A little access to healing and buffing doesn't hurt either.

Not sure if I'd stick to Bard X as your full build however. PrCs are wonderful things, and part of it depends on what your DM is willing to approve for PrCs. But as a Bard you'd qualify for a metric ton of PrCs and I can't comb every option out there. Void Disciple would be nice. If you were Good, Anointed Knight is one I like a lot. I'd tend to avoid PrCs with actual "Assassin" fluff as they tend to be... weird. Mostly because they delay the payoff and are a lot more spread out ability wise than they really need to be.

[Gildedragon]

You don't get the LA. Yes. Get command word when you can afford it, and upgrade later on.

[Gavinfoxx]

The best assassin, if you want to be able to kill ANYTHING with proper preparation...

....is a Wizard.

No Rogue, no 'traditional' assassin stuff. Just Wizard, pure spells. Remember, Assassin is someone who is willing to, and is competent at, killing people for money. At certain levels of optimization, the only thing that one spellcaster fears is another spellcaster, and most of the rogue-y classes and prestige classes don't have NEAR enough spell access of appropriate spells to do the job. People think Assassin means 'poison, traditional stealth, knives, etc.', but that is TOTALLY unnecessary... and not the most effective tool set to do the job.

[Deadline]

Are changelings Eberron? If so they are out, sorry, forgot to mention FR, with little to no tolerance to stuff from other settings.

Changelings originally came from Eberron, but you can find them in the Monster Manual 3 as well.

[Unusual Muse]

If third-party content is allowed, check out Green Ronin's Assassin's Handbook, which has an assassin base class, more PrCs, and lots of other related material.

[Zombulian]

The Targeteer Fighter variant has an ability that lets them give up extra attacks that would be used in a Full Attack to increase crit threat range. So say you have a Keen Great Crossbow (threat 15-20) and you give up 2 attacks from BAB and 1 from rapid shot, your threat becomes 12-20. Find stuff that gives you tons of bonuses for critting and this gives a fairly good assassin mechanic, much better than Death Attack.

[Gharkash]

Thanks for responding, but i stated in the op no or little magic.

I will definitely grab my collar then and march into town like a goth:smallbiggrin:

Will check the changelings out, and sadly 3rd party material is not allowed.

@Zombu, just got informed, dragon material is out...

[Gavinfoxx]

Thanks for responding, but i stated in the op no or little magic.


I know you said no magic, but the thing is, D&D is such an absurdly high magic game, with spells and supernatural abilities that are SO POWERFUL, that it is essentially completely impossible to even come close to being able to assassinate powerful spellcasters without equal levels of magic access. If you want to be an assassin who never targets wizards above a certain capability, fine, but if you want to be best at killing people for money that don't want to be killed, you need magic. Just make sure to go into this with both eyes open, yea?

[Gharkash]

I understand there was no spite in your suggestion, and i assure there was none in my answer. I mostly understand the power gap, but my group is what you would call mid op most of the times, there are a bunch of spellcasters but mostly around tier 3 in power (even if the class is higher tier).

Since you brought magic up though, what are some good magic items for a sneak, aside from the collar of umbral something?

Also, can some one help with the stats of Zenythri, from MM2? And if possible explain the process behind it.

Will probably post a build soon, and if any one is interested they are welcome to critique it.

[Gildedragon]

Shadow-silk armor
Smoking weapons
Gloves of the shadow hand
Gloves of Dex
Ring of trap finding
Ring of lockpicking (filcher's friend?)

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?&topic=8995

There's a good handbook on scouting, it talks about some items as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would suggest that a good class for an assassin is the 'Psychic Rogue'. There's a handbook around here...

[Gharkash]

I did read some of that handbook. Would a psychic rogue fare better than a swordsage for this type of character? My main beef with characters that rely on sneak attack is that they are shut down or gimped by many enemies in many ways. I know there are ways around it, but still. Will read the whole handbook.

[Gavinfoxx]

Really, I would look at:

Factotum
Psychic Rogue
Swordsage

And, actually, mixing and matching some class levels from two of those or something.

Also, 'Ranger with a huge amount of ACF's' is quite viable. If you choose the right ACF mix.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotum makes the best traditional "Assassin" in the game.

Since you said no Templates Dark is out but you can pick that up with a magic item so it's ok.

Here (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=19176) is a Factotum assassin baddy that I used at one point.

You need to modify it but the idea works. Use Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos to make up for no flaws. Buy Novice Shadow Hand Gloves and then Embrace/Shun a feat for Martial Stance (Assassins Stance) to pump your sneak attack.

[Gildedragon]

factotum: The int-based fix-all

[Zombulian]

Thanks for responding, but i stated in the op no or little magic.

I will definitely grab my collar then and march into town like a goth:smallbiggrin:

Will check the changelings out, and sadly 3rd party material is not allowed.

@Zombu, just got informed, dragon material is out...

Awwww maaaaan.

[Phippster]

Something like Factotum/Swordsage would probably net you exactly what you wanted for an assassin-esque style. Factotum lives, breathes, and sleeps Intelligence, meaning that you'll not only get a ton of skill points and a great use out of class abilities, but are also smart enough to work out assassination plans in character. Every skill as a class skill is immensely helpful as well, obviously.

Swordsage, particularly using Shadow Hand maneuvers, fits the assassin like a glove. Because of how multiclassing works, you can grab some insanely high level maneuvers if you start in Factotum and switch into some Swordsage levels later on. One of the most common breakpoints in Factotum is 8th level, meaning that you'd be initiating at 16th level by level 20, and any of the maneuver granting items can fix the lack of 9th level maneuvers that you see fit.

[Eldest]

I would suggest that a good class for an assassin is the 'Psychic Rogue'. There's a handbook around here...

Ask and ye shall receive. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234327)

I would vote for the psychic rogue, I usually back Factotum but not thinking it works as well as a traditional assassin. I am aware that it can be a very effective one, just not feeling it.

[Gharkash]

I did read the guide. Isn't the psyrogue a bit limited with its toys? There did not seem to be enough good powers, unless you use that feat to get more.

I am strongly in favor of swordsage (love the class) but would like to see more options as my previous character was one. Any one ever played a psyrogue? Anything to say about it?

@Zombu, yes i know, i wanted to be an Athasian Human (fluffed as a psionicaly touched human), but nope.

@Tippy, the Shun/Embrace the Dark Chaos would not pass from my DM even if i had it covered with fluffy bunnies and kittens.

To make things a bit more clear, i will probably see a lot of straightforward fights judging by the group i am in, that is why i want some one that can be effective in assassination scenarios and in fight the monsters scenarios.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to recomend a

Duskblade 4 / spellthief 1 / Chameleon 10 / Aubjurent Champion 5 (advancing duskblade)

You get a lot of nice things.

First, you can, as a standard action, add any arcane spell as a rider on a melee attack. This is how you assassinate people. You get access to every arcane spell from level 1 through 5th, including those copied from domains through domain arcanist (any you can do so yourself with your floating feat). Read the trapsmith and assassin lists for early spell levels for things like haste, and gaseous form.

You also get divine spells, so divine power is a nice touch.

The master spellthief feat allows you to cast in light armor and sets your CL at higher than normal.

You get a floating feat that allows you to craft items without burning feats.

You get 1d6 sneak attack damage to power craven and can use it to steal spells from spellcasters.

You get a untyped +6 to a stat. Put it in con and get a +6 item by 20th (make it yourself!). Mix with a +1 tome of odd starting stat and you are surprisingly tough.

[Waker]

You might also consider the Scout class when using the ACFs:
Dungeon Specialist Gain a Climb Speed and some other bonuses. Can be very handy in an urban setting.
Go to Ground Being untrackable certainly has it's benefits. Utilize some anti-divination magic and you're good to go.
Hidden Stalker If you get this high of a level, it can be handy. Being able to move and hide definitely has it's uses.

You could also mix in some Urban Ranger with the Swift Hunter feat to augment your combat abilities a bit.

[Shining Wrath]

A recent Iron Chef used Urban Soul as the SI, and I considered the idea of using Urban Soul to enhance an assassin. Someone who can teleport into a room, meld into the stone, and wait for their victim to be helpless or distracted, then attack. Since you can cast on yourself while melded, a dip into classes that give good self-buffs (druid?) and into classes that give enhanced senses (psion?). IIRC Meld With Stone requires a 4 level dip, and it's at-will.

So, a psion / druid changing who uses disguise to gain access to the castle, Meld with Stone to hide from guards, and hides in the bathroom, slaying his victims in the tub, or upon the throne.

[Fouredged Sword]

Those four levels seem like an awsome capstone to a chameleon build.

Duskblade 4 / Spellthief 1 / Chameleon 10 / Urban Soul 5

Invisible Gaseous form gets you in place. Meld with stone. Wraith strike yourself and Truestrike before you step out.

Then power attack them with a feeblemind weapon strike and a weapon that deals an int damaging poison.

Then it's just you and an Int 1 (or zero) creature who can't call for help.

If they are still not down, follow up with a UPD'd powerstone of egowhip.

[Gharkash]

Thanks for the advice, all of it. Due to a number of reasons i am going with a human rogue1/swordsage10, using the poison use rogue. Any one has any good suggestions for poisons that are useful and not to easy to save against at level 11 and beyond?

[Fouredged Sword]

Handbook? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)

[Gharkash]

Read it, solid advice, but it is a bit vague as to overall usefulness of the poisons.

[Shining Wrath]

Define "Not Easy to Save" as campaigns differ.

Start here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63130).

Level 11, I'm thinking most PCs will get something like +10 or +15 to their save from ability scores and items and class levels. So you really want +20 DC's.

For injury poisons with DC >=20, e.g., coat your blade stuff, you are looking at 1,000 or 2,000 GP per dose, and inflict 1D6 or 2D6 ability score damage for each missed save.

[Fouredged Sword]

It helps to play with other conditions that complement poison.

Shaken and Sickened both lower saves. There are feats that let you trade sneak attack to apply both. A paladin of Tyranny 3 adds another -2. Then greater magic weapon on an assassination weapon can add 3 at 11th level.

You can get a 10-12 point swing in saves, and that makes the diference between working and not.

The problem is that poison immunity is going to become a lot more common from 11th level on.

Like mind effecting stuff, poison is a nice tactic for a particular level bracket, and it starts to suffer increasing problems with immunity as the game goes on. Unlike mind effecting abilities, it targets fort, so the most vulnerable to low fort saves are the same full casters who can get access to poison immunity soonest.

[Gharkash]

I know about the sneak attack feats, but i am already feat starved.

The fact that poison is far from a foolproof tactic is written in the handbook, i am just getting it in place of trap finding cause it seems a tad better, and will try to complement the build with it rather than base a build around it.

Assassination is a nice enchantment that i will get eventually, but to give 3 to the poison dc wouldn't it be a +3 Assassination weapon, at 32k gp? Does that worth the money in comparison with two +4 attribute items?

[Fouredged Sword]

Nope, they are two +1 assassination weapons with Greater Magic Weapon cast on them by the team cleric. Much more affordable.

[Gharkash]

No cleric in the house. Or wizard. Psion is the only caster for now, waiting to see if two more people will join.