The cheese thread

[Immabozo]

This thread is not for the lactose intolerant, for cheese is encouraged!

How much can you pack into a given LA/RHD?? How much boneses can you get out of a +0 or +1 LA especially. But the whole goal is to get as small of an ECL as possible with as big of bonuses as you can get.

I'll take a shot at it.

Warforged incarnate construct pseudonatural natural werepheonixkin (pseudonatural is on the base animal, not the character)

+1 LA, 1 RHD (RHD is max HP)

+26 str, +12 dex, +14 con, 39 NA, +2 will saves, DR 10/silver or DR 20/+5 (scales with HD), speed in human form, 30 ft, hybrid and animal form is 80 ft

Pounce,
Claw (1D4), claw (1D4), bite (1D6) natural attacks (or 3 tentacle attacks at 2D8 + str, scales with HD),
All attacks made with a +15 insight bonus,
Not subjected to miss chance for concealment,
low light vision,
Iron Will and improved initiative bonus feats,
Improved grab (tentacle),
During subsequent rounds of grapple (with tentacles), with each successful grapple attempt, dealing 2D4 permanent con damage and healing 10 hit points
Acid and Electricity resistance 15 (scales with HD)
SR = HD X 5

[Renen]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCN-QYOckO88BQCgAeFXp_8g90nDqWzXe6xK2rRKVOZLIxjSmJ

[Vaz]

Applying Incarnate Construct must be done first, and it reduces LA to no lower than 0.

[nedz]

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4852167302381774&pid=15.1

[Immabozo]

I love the cheese blocks!

So the -2 LA from incarnate construct doesn't "carry over"?

[The Viscount]

It reduces to a minimum of 0. You can however do as Vaz did in Iron Chef and chain infinite incarnate template and dustform templates (pretty clever, that). A base of something with half-minotaur attached should make it so that after incarnate you are a giant. Then apply Primordial giant at the end for +0LA and a neat SLA.

[Razanir]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2730/5854855611_b1be506d4f.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413)

Click the pic for extra cheese

[Vaz]

Primordial Giant is an Inherited template if I'm not mistaken. It's been a while since I've read Xen'drik.

There is very little reason to make a super-awesome base creature, and then apply Arbitrary Incarnate Dustform for infinite Strength and Intelligence 18. However, you lose all your Feats, Skills (not bonuses), Special Attacks and Special Qualities. Essentially you keep movement modes, and that's it.

An N*(Evolved) Spellstitched Necropolitan N*(Incarnate Dustform) Unseelie X Venerable Lesser Aasimar made by a Dread Necromancer with the Corpsecrafting Line of Feats in a Desecrafted area nets you a huge amount of bonuses.

It requires a HD of 17 to get all of the Evolved Undead Spell-likes, and requires your DM to allow the Corpsecrafter apply to the Necropolitan Ritual.

Infinite Strength
3 Dexterity
- Con
18 Intelligence
21 Wisdom
Infinate Charisma
Spell Like Abilities at CL=HD (2 1st Level Spell 4/day, 2 2nd Level Spell 4/day, 2 3rd Level Spell 2/day, 2 4th Level Spell 2/day, 2 5th Level Spell 2/day, 1 6th Level Spell 1/day, all of Choice. 1/day each Circle of Death, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Confusion, Contagion, Creeping Doom, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Haste, Hold Monster, See Invisibility, Unholy Blight).
DR10/+3 at 12HD
Spell Resistance 20+
+2 to All Saves
+8 Turn Resistance
+2 Resistance to Will versus Control Undead
Fast Healing 3
Infinite Natural Armour
+2 HP/HD
+1d6 Cold Damage with Natural Weapons (irrelevant)
1d6/2HD+1d6 damage to all within 10ft if killed
+4 Initiative
60ft Fly Speed
40ft Land Speed


You do that first. Theoretically, you can use LA buy-off to remove the +1LA each time you gain Evolved Undead before the next one applies. Heavily cheesy; but provided you stop using the Incarnate Dustform then you can gain Class-levels and adventure (you'd otherwise lose all Class Features); after all, Evolved Undead increases Strength and Charisma.

This is a heavily cheesy "race"; but it's essentially LA+0 (actually, LA Infinite, but because it's applied in stages, you can buy off before the next level), and still "Playable". You could go further and turn it into a 11*(Swarm Form) N*(Evolved) Spellstitched Necropolitan N*(Incarnate Dustform) Unseelie X Venerable Lesser Aasimar, which gives it various different swarms; including a Charisma Based Poison attack in Swarm Form (1d4/1d4 Dex, 1d2/1d2 Con or 1d3/1d3 Strength), Charisma Based Disease Attack in a different Swarm Form (1d8 Dex or a 1d3 Dex and Con), 2d4 rounds of Nausea, Charisma based Fear Attack causing 1d4 rounds of Frighten.

Other Template Shenanigans include the removal of the Base Creature's Level Adjustment on the Base Creature of a Tauric Creature.

Essentially; add EVERY single template possible onto the Base Creature (Vermin, Animal, or Magical Beast) that doesn't change it to something outside of those 3 or make it larger than Large Size, or change it's RHD.

Have fun with that one.

[Immabozo]

but then you get lots of LA, the idea is low to no LA! Is Incarnate construct the only -LA thing out there?

[Vaz]

Depends on how you rule LA buyoff wrt Applied templates; whether it applies only at the time its applied (in which case, you buyoff LA cheap as chips) and once bought off, it's gone for good, or if LA is still present.

LA1+1 with LA buy off isn't necessarily LA2 if one of them is applied.

[TuggyNE]

Depends on how you rule LA buyoff wrt Applied templates; whether it applies only at the time its applied (in which case, you buyoff LA cheap as chips) and once bought off, it's gone for good, or if LA is still present.

Well, you can only buy off LA at best once every three character levels, so you can't really get infinite templates pre-epic. You can get at most 6 for minimal buyoff, in fact.

[Immabozo]

Well, you can only buy off LA at best once every three character levels, so you can't really get infinite templates pre-epic. You can get at most 6 for minimal buyoff, in fact.

So barring the Incarnate Construct shinanigans, there is no way to lower LA other than LA buy off?

[TuggyNE]

So barring the Incarnate Construct shinanigans, there is no way to lower LA other than LA buy off?

I can't think of one right now, even cheesy. Maybe there is some obscure trick out there that I haven't heard of, though.

[Jeff the Green]

Infinite Strength
Infinate Charisma
Infinite Natural Armour

Arbitrarily high, not infinite. Separate things, actually. If you have infinite natural armor you cannot even theoretically be hit with a normal attack except on a natural 20. If you have arbitrarily high natural armor, you can. D2 crusaders do infinite damage, for instance, which would still kill you if you used the armor as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm#naturalArmor) variant.


Well, you can only buy off LA at best once every three character levels, so you can't really get infinite templates pre-epic. You can get at most 6 for minimal buyoff, in fact.

I don't think that's quite right.


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0.

If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

So basically, you can buy off that +1, gain another +1, and then buy off that, without any levels coming in between.

[TuggyNE]

So basically, you can buy off that +1, gain another +1, and then buy off that, without any levels coming in between.

No, because of two things: first, this can only happen precisely at the indicated intervals (i.e., during level-up itself), and second, the latter bolded portion means the whole process repeats, including setting a new interval. The examples make this rather clear: the drow drops its first LA at class level 6, and its second at class level 9 (6 + 3).

[Vaz]

That's because they're applied, or natural LA.

Assume that character above.

It needs to be 17HD to get all the SLA's.

So, it's become 17HD prior to becoming Evolved.

It currently has a LA of 0.

Level up has occured, and we're slap bang in the middle of a level worth of XP. Suddenly, you're given the Evolved Undead Template, as you've met the criteria.

You've gone from 0, applied the template, it's now +1.

This matches the criteria for LA buy-off here.


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Evolved Undead is applied, and you've bought off the LA so you're now LA0, rather than +1.

You wait another 100 years until you've got the Evolved Undead applied once more. You're not a +2 LA, you're +1 again. You now meet the Criteria for the template, and you can buy it off to reduce yourself to LA0 once more. etc, etc.

I will admit that this doesn't work with Base Races, or Inherited Templates, but for applied templates only adding +1 it does.

It's not going to work on a Lycanthrope; as it would need to advance 3 levels to buy off the next bit of LA. A +1 applied template has no such problem.

It is very cheesy. But hey. That's what was asked.

[Spuddles]

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Cheese/Cheese_5_gallons/46_cheese_wheel_P3280463.jpg

[TuggyNE]

That's because they're applied, or natural LA.
[…]
I will admit that this doesn't work with Base Races, or Inherited Templates, but for applied templates only adding +1 it does.

It's not going to work on a Lycanthrope; as it would need to advance 3 levels to buy off the next bit of LA. A +1 applied template has no such problem.

It is very cheesy. But hey. That's what was asked.

The problem isn't that it's cheesy, it's that it just doesn't work at all. You can only buy off LA once per 3+ levels. After you have done that, or not done that as the case may be, you have no further opportunity at all, no matter what your current level may be, until the next such opening appears.

Strictly speaking, of course, because you're only eligible at the listed levels (and not any higher ones), it would seem that the example Evolved Undead character here cannot buy off any LA whatsoever: it's not class level 3.

[Vaz]

It doesn't say that at all.


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Creature above, pre-Evolution, 3HD, 0 LA, no LA, nothing needs buying off.

Apply Evolved Template, 3HD, 0LA+1LA=1LA. 3 = 3*1, meets criteria, buy off occurs, becomes 3HD, 0LA.

Wait 100 years, apply Evolved Template, 3HD, 0LA+1LA=1LA. 3 =3*1, meets criteria, becomes 3HD.

I will concede however, that once it reaches its 4Class Level, it's ineligible to use this trick; so the evolved Spell-like abilities do not work (requiring HD to match earliest Wizard Caster level), but the rest of the build does; Arbitrary Strength, Charisma, Natural Armour, etc.

[Jon_Dahl]

http://www.megaportail.com/uploads/posts/2010-08/1282211028_sir010.jpg

[kabreras]

It doesn't say that at all.



Creature above, pre-Evolution, 3HD, 0 LA, no LA, nothing needs buying off.

Apply Evolved Template, 3HD, 0LA+1LA=1LA. 3 = 3*1, meets criteria, buy off occurs, becomes 3HD, 0LA.

Wait 100 years, apply Evolved Template, 3HD, 0LA+1LA=1LA. 3 =3*1, meets criteria, becomes 3HD.

I will concede however, that once it reaches its 4Class Level, it's ineligible to use this trick; so the evolved Spell-like abilities do not work (requiring HD to match earliest Wizard Caster level), but the rest of the build does; Arbitrary Strength, Charisma, Natural Armour, etc.

No,

You can buy off LA as part of the leveling process not any time during the level.

So it give :

Creature above, pre-Evolution, 3HD, 0 LA, no LA, nothing needs buying off.

Apply Evolved Template, 3HD, 0LA+1LA=1LA. Gain 3 levels in any class then buy off the LA. LA =1-1=0 HD=3+3=6


apply Evolved Template, 6HD, 0LA+1LA=1LA. 3 =3*1, Gain 3 levels in any class then buy off the LA. LA=1-1=0 HD=6+3=9

[Chronos]

There's always the Tauric trick. You start with some quadrupedal creature, apply templates out the wazoo for stat increases without regard for LA, then mate it with a humanoid. The offspring gets all of the stat increases without all of the LA, just (IIRC) a few racial HD.

[Immabozo]

There's always the Tauric trick. You start with some quadrupedal creature, apply templates out the wazoo for stat increases without regard for LA, then mate it with a humanoid. The offspring gets all of the stat increases without all of the LA, just (IIRC) a few racial HD.

This is true, tauric does give an entrance for shinanigans.

[Immabozo]

Sorry for the double post. If Psudonatural requires int to be at least 3, and paragon gives +15 int, that would make both ineligible to to subject to lycanthropy, right? And Feral makes it a magical beast and that likewise makes it ineligible, right?

[mattie_p]

Sgt. Cookie discovered a wonderful use for the symbiote template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259833).

[Vaz]

No,

You can buy off LA as part of the leveling process not any time during the level.

So it give :

Creature above, pre-Evolution, 3HD, 0 LA, no LA, nothing needs buying off.

Apply Evolved Template, 3HD, 0LA+1LA=1LA. Gain 3 levels in any class then buy off the LA. LA =1-1=0 HD=3+3=6


apply Evolved Template, 6HD, 0LA+1LA=1LA. 3 =3*1, Gain 3 levels in any class then buy off the LA. LA=1-1=0 HD=6+3=9

Nope. Nothing states it is the levelling process that does this.

It happens as soon as the HD is 3 times that of the LA. HD3, gains +1 LA. HD is now 3 times LA. Immediately bought off for XP.

Provided said creature stays at 3rd level over the course of hundreds of thousands of years. it can Arbitratily increase its Natural Armour, Strength and Charisma.

[kabreras]

You can do it only once at the leveling moment not anytime during the level. so yes you have to gein 3 levels for each +1 you have

[TuggyNE]

Nope. Nothing states it is the levelling process that does this.

As kabreras said, you can only do it during leveling, and only once.

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

For instance, a gnoll's level adjustment is +1. When a gnoll character gains his third class level (remember, the gnoll's 2 starting Hit Dice don't count), he can pay an XP cost to reduce his level adjustment to +0.
[…]
Experience Point Cost
Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000. This amount is immediately deducted from the character's XP total. The deduction should reduce the character's effective character level (ECL) by 1. (If this deduction would not reduce the character's ECL by 1, the character's XP total is set at the maximum of the level below his current ECL instead.) This XP cost can't be reversed in any way, and the payment must be voluntary on the part of the character. The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment.

Eligibility is triggered by having enough XP to gain another class level, and the decision to buy off must be made right then. Eligibility does not last after that, even if the condition would still be met.

[mattie_p]

Most importantly, LA buy-off can only be done on where the level is a multiple of three. This results in a reduction of LA (as well as a reduction in total XP), but the character still gains a level as a result.

Even if an undead had three levels and gained the evolved template again, they would have 4 class levels, and would be ineligible to buy off the LA.

[nedz]

http://ts2.explicit.bing.net/th?id=H.5014598643288589&pid=15.1
TL;DR: The trick doesn't work and the cheese has gone off.

[Vaz]

Most importantly, LA buy-off can only be done on where the level is a multiple of three. This results in a reduction of LA (as well as a reduction in total XP), but the character still gains a level as a result.

Even if an undead had three levels and gained the evolved template again, they would have 4 class levels, and would be ineligible to buy off the LA.

It specifically calls out to ignore LA and RHD when determining the point at which you can buy off LA.

TL:DR; the trick does still work.

3 Class Level Character, no LA.

Gains Evolved Template, +1LA. Character is now a 3 Class Level Character with 1 LA, and as soon as the template is applied, provided you have the experience leftover to buy it off without reducing your level, you do so.

The example is referring to existant LA.

You do not need to have existant LA at the level of first eligibility for the buy off, but you can attain it at that level.

Nothing, nothing whatsoever in the LA buy off states it can ONLY be done when gaining a LEVEL. It states that it can only be done as soon as the criteria is reached. That criteria being that Sum of total class levels is 3 times that of LA.

We're going to agree to disagree. This would never fly in a real game; of course; stacking all them templates in the first place, and you don't even need to have the Evolved template apply, so that's a moot point.

Just go around with Black Sand in your shoes, (and take Earth Power shenanigans at the same time), for 1d4 Fast Healing, while taking a Brutal Thrower and Bracers of Endless Javelins. It's like a Cancer Mage on Steroids.

Other cheese;

well, Pun Pun

and also

Either be a Mirror Mephit, or get an Arcane Caster Level of 7 somehow (races with HD based Arcane SLA's) before taking the Planar Familiar feat to get a Mirror Mephit. It has as an SLA, Simulacrum. Simulacrum an Efreeti, or a Lilitu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13106735&postcount=3). As it's an SLA, there's no Material Component either.

[kabreras]

Aquiring a template do not happend during the leveling process.

You get it either during level 2 or 3 but not at the moment you do your actual leveling.

So if you gain it during level 3 you canot buy it off as buying off is made at leveling process in a multiple of 3 so you have to whait till leveling 6 to do it.

[Vaz]

There is NO mention of getting it as soon as you level up. The example gives that, AS an example, but a) the number of times examples are incorrect and b) it is precisely that.

An example. NOT a rule. The rule is when your sum of class levels is 3 times that of the LA you can buy off.

Only WHEN your sum of Class levels is 3 times that of the LA.

[mattie_p]

Actually, reading through it, I do believe that Vaz is correct, but it would have to be timed extremely carefully.


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Undead with three class levels + Evolved (+1 LA) = eligible.


Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000.

So he would have to pay 3000 xp.


The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment.

So you would have to gain the evolved template while your xp total was between 9,000 and 9,999. If it wasn't, you miss the immediate window, and can't pay it at that time, or any time (not without gaining additional LA, anyway).

[Jeff the Green]

There is NO mention of getting it as soon as you level up. The example gives that, AS an example, but a) the number of times examples are incorrect and b) it is precisely that.

An example. NOT a rule. The rule is when your sum of class levels is 3 times that of the LA you can buy off.

Only WHEN your sum of Class levels is 3 times that of the LA.

Expanding on this, it says that you must make the payment as soon as you qualify for it. That's normally at 3rd for +1 LA. But if you don't have the LA, you don't qualify to buy it off. As soon as you gain +1 LA (assuming you have at least 3 character levels), you qualify to buy it off.

[Immabozo]

Expanding on this, it says that you must make the payment as soon as you qualify for it. That's normally at 3rd for +1 LA. But if you don't have the LA, you don't qualify to buy it off. As soon as you gain +1 LA (assuming you have at least 3 character levels), you qualify to buy it off.

Also, LA buyoff CAN reduce your level from 3 to 2, then gaining 3 again allows you to qualify again

[mattie_p]

Also, LA buyoff CAN reduce your level from 3 to 2, then gaining 3 again allows you to qualify again

Umm, no. LA buyoff never reduces your class levels, just your ECL.

[Jeff the Green]

Also, LA buyoff CAN reduce your level from 3 to 2, then gaining 3 again allows you to qualify again

LA buyoff requires 3/6/9/12... class levels, not ECLs. Racial HD don't count either.

[Immabozo]

I t5hought I was reading that it could reduce your class level to one lower and if it did, it was at the max experience allowed for that level

[Sgt. Cookie]

I'ma, I'm gonna just leave this right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259833)

[mattie_p]

Sgt. Cookie discovered a wonderful use for the symbiote template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259833).


I'ma, I'm gonna just leave this right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259833)

Symbioted?

[Sgt. Cookie]

I didn't read too far into the Thread, so I didn't know it had already been posted. I saw the request, and then dipped into my bookmarks for my trick.

[Immabozo]

I'ma, I'm gonna just leave this right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259833)

I like it, but again, all the loopholes presented in the thread are big problems. But I like it!

[Snowbluff]

Yuan Tainted Ones
Polymorph into snake forms.
Assume (Su). Sarrukh?

EDIT: Haiku.

[Immabozo]

Again, does pseudonatural and paragon templates make an animal no longer able to be used in a Lycanthrope template because of raising the int to 3 or higher, respectively?

And Feral also makes it ineligible because it becomes a magical beast, right?

[Xervous]

Not sure if this is applicable, but would losing a level, gaining the +1 LA template, then leveling to 4 (3 class + 1 LA) allow that LA to be bought off, creating a repeatable scenario?

[Sgt. Cookie]

I like it, but again, all the loopholes presented in the thread are big problems. But I like it!

Easily plug-able though. You can, as early ECL 2!, be vulnerable to literally two things: Trollbane and Searing Spell.

All you need is the Fire and Cold subtypes. You can get them temporarily via the Blazing Beserker and Frozen Beserker feats. Or permanently via the Mantle of Icy Cold/Sandstorm counterpart.

[nedz]

OK, now that you have explained the trick: I get it, and it does seem to work.
It is very fragile though because of the 1000 xp window.
I guess, if you over shoot, you can do it again at 6th where the window is slightly wider.

[Immabozo]

Easily plug-able though. You can, as early ECL 2!, be vulnerable to literally two things: Trollbane and Searing Spell.

All you need is the Fire and Cold subtypes. You can get them temporarily via the Blazing Beserker and Frozen Beserker feats. Or permanently via the Mantle of Icy Cold/Sandstorm counterpart.

True, very true.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Haha, cheese pictures when discussing cheese, hilarious. Posts with images not really on topic and no other content are pretty much spam. Please don't spam/cheese up the forum.

[Clistenes]

You know, I have remembered that old trick of casting Baleful Polymorph and Awaken on your pet again and again to give it a bajizillon HD (which gives it feats and skill points too), and raise its Charisma (I would houserule that its Charisma never rises above 18).

The main problem with that trick (besides annoying your DM) is that, 1.-at the end of the day, you still have an animal (well a Magical Beast, but with very little "Magical" and a lot of "Beast") without special powers or special attacks (it can take a lot of damage without dying, and probably has some relatively good saves due to all the extra HD) and 2.-the awakened animal is an NPC and as such can get tired of being manipulated and leave you.

But, what if you use the trick to give more hit points, skill poins, better saves and feats to you poor little Nimblewright? O do the same to your Stone Golem (with the help of Stone to Flesh). The bugger is under your magical control, so it can't escape your abuse, and you are allowing it to earn very cheap HD plus some nice combat feats.

[Immabozo]

true, very true, but the whole point of this is to get the most out of LA and/or RHD for yourself.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I wonder if Savage Species Monster classes are still considered creatures, instead of classes. Because if they are, Alter Self just got vastly improved.

[Vaz]

Easily plug-able though. You can, as early ECL 2!, be vulnerable to literally two things: Trollbane and Searing Spell.

All you need is the Fire and Cold subtypes. You can get them temporarily via the Blazing Beserker and Frozen Beserker feats. Or permanently via the Mantle of Icy Cold/Sandstorm counterpart.

If I remember correctly, the spells in question are now (as of Spell Compendium) Hours/Level, or similar. Of course, point still stands.

[Immabozo]

I wonder if Savage Species Monster classes are still considered creatures, instead of classes. Because if they are, Alter Self just got vastly improved.

whoa, where is this written?

[mattie_p]

I wonder if Savage Species Monster classes are still considered creatures, instead of classes. Because if they are, Alter Self just got vastly improved.

Not really, they still retain type and subtype - alter self is same type only. No alter selfing into a level 1 minotaur, for instance. Now, it does say that "Clever DMs can also make use of this method to regress monsters..." (edit: SS p 25).

In a discussion like this, why not assume this is on the table. But type is still a big barrier.

[Sgt. Cookie]

If I remember correctly, the spells in question are now (as of Spell Compendium) Hours/Level, or similar. Of course, point still stands.

Only one was updated, Icy Cold I think it was.


whoa, where is this written?

It isn't written anywhere, but, if SS Monster classes do still count as Monsters, then Planetouched could AS into, for example, a 10th level Dijinni or a 9th level Bargest as they are both 5hd Outsiders.

[Immabozo]

Only one was updated, Icy Cold I think it was.

It isn't written anywhere, but, if SS Monster classes do still count as Monsters, then Planetouched could AS into, for example, a 10th level Dijinni or a 9th level Bargest as they are both 5hd Outsiders.

wow, so as long as you are the same type as them, it works?

Templates can change type, so perhaps a template would be a good idea

[Vaz]

You explicitly transform into normal types of those creatures. Regardless of whether they are creatures or monsters or characters, transforming into them does not work, as one with less than usual HD, templated, advanced, or Sovereign archetyped (in the case of Dragons from Eberron) is not a "normal" creature of its type; the monster entries in the relevant books are explicitly the normal versions of said type.

[Sgt. Cookie]

*Flicks through Alter Self* Nope, it only has a clause about Templates. Lower HD versions of creatures are kosher as far as AS is concerned.

[Vaz]

Well what do you know. I agree with Mattie_P, though, in that it is on the table, but due to subjective wording on the part of Alter Self. From the wording of Alter Self, as I understand it, you can copy Class Features from a Monster with Class Features. For example, Alter Self into a Human Warblade, or whatever. It doesn't explicitly rule that out. But that's more a case of the whole "it doesn't say you can't argument".

However, in Savage Species;

"This chapter presents rules for treating monster kinds as character classes"

...

"The only way to take a level of a monster class is to be that monster. ... Unlike the standard classes in the Player’s Handbook, monster classes have racial traits as well as character traits. Racial traits are not given in the class tables themselves; they appear as a separate section before the Class Features section for each monster."

This means that a Minotaur without Monster Class Levels (and provided my strawman above) would never exist in that instance, and as you cannot AS into a Monster with Class Levels, you wouldn't be able to use that form.

[Immabozo]

Well what do you know. I agree with Mattie_P, though, in that it is on the table, but due to subjective wording on the part of Alter Self. From the wording of Alter Self, as I understand it, you can copy Class Features from a Monster with Class Features. For example, Alter Self into a Human Warblade, or whatever. It doesn't explicitly rule that out. But that's more a case of the whole "it doesn't say you can't argument".

However, in Savage Species;

"This chapter presents rules for treating monster kinds as character classes"

...

"The only way to take a level of a monster class is to be that monster. ... Unlike the standard classes in the Player’s Handbook, monster classes have racial traits as well as character traits. Racial traits are not given in the class tables themselves; they appear as a separate section before the Class Features section for each monster."

This means that a Minotaur without Monster Class Levels (and provided my strawman above) would never exist in that instance, and as you cannot AS into a Monster with Class Levels, you wouldn't be able to use that form.

Because it's not the normal form for the monster, right? Its not the usual version of the monster.

[Zombulian]

I like how like two days after someone in your Warhulk Hanbook brings up incarnate construct, you make this thread, and lead it off with IC cheese :smalltongue:

[thethird]

Why don't you turn it the other way around? If Savage Species monster classes are indeed class levels. Wouldn't you keep those class features when polymorphing?

[Immabozo]

I like how like two days after someone in your Warhulk Hanbook brings up incarnate construct, you make this thread, and lead it off with IC cheese :smalltongue:

hey, it got me thinking! I like the -2 LA idea!