New to PF, can I build a bruiser druid?

[tadkins]

Going to be playing PF for the first time real soon and am looking for some insight.

Party so far consists of a sorcerer, alchemist (Chirurgeon), and potentially another who expressed interest in playing a rogue-type character. That leaves me to fill in the hole of playing a dedicated bruiser.

So far I'm set on playing a neutral good human druid, but as I don't know PF very well I'm wondering if a druid can take on that role. Characters will be starting at level 3, which means only one level to go until I can wildshape into strong, beefy animals to beat things up with. Before that I figure I can make liberal use of Summon Nature's Ally spells to summon some guys that can beat things up instead.

Any recommended archetypes I should consider? In regards to Nature Bond, is it generally better to take the domain or the animal companion?

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, druid can melee pretty well in PF, despite nerfs from 3E. Wildshape may come at level 4, but the beast shape 1 bonuses are pretty weak not to mention only 1/day, so I wouldn't count on wildshape turning you into an uber tank until Druid 6.

For race, you want Oread or Dwarf. There's also a +wis/str tiefling that's good. I like Oread the best, but both it and dwarf have nice racial features (check out the variant ones for oread).

PF did give druids scythe proficiency, so that is a decent weapon to 2H before then. If not, scimitar + shield is also good. For armor, you would probably want Do-maru or Horn Lamellar as they are the best non-metallic medium armors. Leather Lamellar is a good light armor. If you can't use the eastern armors from UC, you'll want hide or leather, I guess.

For the bond... you can actually have the companion AND the domain, but the domain will be slightly subpar and the companion won't come until 4th level and requires Boon Companion feat to get rid of the -3 effective level it has. In the end, you get a domain for the price of a feat, pretty good deal. What you want is to take Animal Domain (Feather subdomain if at all possible, it is a VAST improvement).

For archetypes, I recommend all druids to be Menhir Savant, it's just so good. Even though it does nothing to help melee. Being able to detect many of the monsters that tend to be hard to see; getting free CL boosts; being able to teleport the party around the world many times a day... all pretty awesome, and you barely give up much for it.

Summon Nature's Ally: I should warn you, SNA is greatly nerfed in PF. Summon Monster is like plainly superior now. Also, both summon lists seem to kinda suck the first 3 spell levels, even out at 4th, then get very good at 5th level and up. In terms of the CR of what you can summon vs. spell level. Still nice to have as a fallback to spont. cast, but you may not want to invest much into your summoning.

EDIT: You may want to take the Two-World Magic trait to get Ghost Sound on your orison list. That will let you talk while wildshaped (assuming you have Natural Spell to cast it with, of course).

[navar100]

You can, but Pathfinder changed how wildshape works from 3E. In 3E, when you wildshape, you get the physical scores of whatever creature you become. Your own character's physical score wouldn't matter. Your character can have an 8 Strength, but if you turn into a creature with 20 Strength, you fight with 20 Strength.

That is not the case in Pathfinder. Instead, wildshape enhances your character's ability scores. It starts small, like +2 and +4, but as the levels progress eventually you can get +6 and +8. That means if your Strength score is 8 and wildshape for a +4 bonus, you fight with Strength 12 even if the creature you turn into has 20 Strength in the Bestiary. Therefore, to be a bruiser druid you need to keep watch of your physical scores. If you can manage at first level to have minimum 14 ST, 14 DX, and 18 WI including racial modifiers, you should be fine. Use favored class bonus for hit points and consider Toughness Feat. If you aren't planning on casting a lot of attack spells, then 16 WI at first level after racial modifiers is fine if whatever your ability score creation method forces it. You may want a higher ST or DX or even your CO might be of great importance. Use ability score upgrades as you level for WI.

Human at 20 Point Buy points can have 16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10 as base. +2 racial modifier can be used for an 18 or another 16. You're good to go. You might even make a 10 an 8 or 7 to dump into Charisma for some extra points. Personal opinion I prefer 25 Point Buy points for a more comfortable build. That gets you 16, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10 before racial modifiers or take an 8/7 for extra points.

[tadkins]

Thanks guys. Good stuff so far.

I should have mentioned before but this is my first time playing with this group so I don't want to look *too* cheesy right off the bat. That said I'm pretty dead set on playing a human. Character creation rules are as follows;

"3rd, standard wealth for it, 2 traits (+# to saves or initiative ones aren't allowed), 22 point buy on a 1 on 1 ratio (no increasing cost, so an 18 is only 8 points) stat start at 10 like normal and you can't lower them to get extra points, a single 18 pre-racial modifiers."

I like the Shield/Scimitar setup, will go with that one. Menhir Savant too. Should be able to go with that stat build as well given the above rules.

Quick question though. "Use favored class bonus for hit points", where is this located? From what I see the human druid class bonus adds a Diplomacy/Intimidate bonus to change a creature's attitude.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a handbook for a more martial pf druid:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/druid-handbook-part-2

It's a bit long in tooth though, and doesn't talk about recent rules additions.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Thanks guys. Good stuff so far.
"3rd, standard wealth for it, 2 traits (+# to saves or initiative ones aren't allowed), 22 point buy on a 1 on 1 ratio (no increasing cost, so an 18 is only 8 points) stat start at 10 like normal and you can't lower them to get extra points, a single 18 pre-racial modifiers."I'll suggest an array

Oread or Dwarf
20 or 18 Str (8 points) +2 for Oread
14 Dex (4 points)
16 or 18 Con (6 points) +2 for Dwarf
10 Int (0 points)
16 Wis (4 points) +2 for Oread or Dwarf
8 Cha (0 points) -2 for Oread or Dwarf

Total points in this system: 22
Total points by standard rules: 37 ...


As for traits:
- Armor Expert
- Beast of the Society
- Desperate Focus
- Adopted
- Militant Merchant (Dwarf only)


Quick question though. "Use favored class bonus for hit points", where is this located? From what I see the human druid class bonus adds a Diplomacy/Intimidate bonus to change a creature's attitude.Every character may, at the start of their career, regardless of race, determine one class to be their favored class. Every time you gain a level in that class, you can gain 1 bonus hitpoint, or 1 bonus skill point, or a crazy third option (like you human bonus).

[navar100]

The original favored class rules are in the Core Rule Book. Your options are either 1 hit point per level or 1 skill point per level. Advanced Player's Guide introduced alternative options based on race and class combination.

With your creation method, you have good options.

1) 16, 14, 14, 14, 14, 10, human +2 for an 18 or another 16
2) 18, 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, human +2 for a 16
3) 18, 16, 16, 12, 10, 10, human +2 for a second 18

Arrange for your preference among ST, DX, CO, and WI, with ST and WI having priority over DX and CO.

If you don't mind delayed gratification and willing to have odd numbers to be increased every four levels, you have more flexibility with 17s and 15s.

17 17 15 13 10 10 is an interesting array. Human +2 gets you a third 17 or second 15. Even 18 17 15 12 10 10 looks good. Human +2 for a second 17 or have a 14.

[avr]

Remember 2H weapons are easy to change a grip on to cast a spell with somatic components. 1H weapon + shield not so much. You can still make it work as buff, then draw weapon or ready shield, then attack but you lose some flexibility if you need to cast a spell mid-combat.

At character level 3, shillelagh (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shillelagh) is your best buff spell. You may want to carry a club or quarterstaff for that reason alone.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow, that point buy... I would definitely get an 18 pre-race and a 16 or 17. Which is wisdom and which is str is up to you, but whatever gets 18 should get the human +2. I know you want to be great at melee, but I suggest wisdom be highest.

18, 16, 14, 14, 10, 10 looks like a good array to me. The 18 and 16 for Wis/Str, the 14's for Dex/Con, and 10's for Int and Cha.

I would seriously reconsider human, Oread is just a really great racial choice, and dwarf is quite good, too.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Now, level 3 is an interesting starting level. I have a build concept that dips Master of Many Styles Monk at 3rd level and picks up Crane Wing to vastly improve defense. And you wanted to be a tank. Boon Companion adds up to +4 to animal companion level, so you can still do feather domain and dip monk and end up with a full progression companion.

The thing is... the benefits from monk are absolutely weaker than advancing caster level. But, if what your DM cares about is the appearance of "cheesiness," I'm worried he'd think you nerfing yourself for more defense was cheesy. I really hate that word, it seems like everytime it's levied against a build, it's for something in the build that actually raw power for more breadth.

In any case, if you're interested, I have it spoilered. Relies on interpretation of the meaning of "free hand"; I intended the build to turn into an Allosaurus and similar bipedal dinosaurs, and thus have "free hands."

"Kung Fu Dino Druid" (snapshot at 9th level)
Oread Menhir Savant Druid 2 / MoMS Monk 1 / Druid +6
Bond: Feather subdomain (or just animal to save a feat)

Feats:
1 Dodge
3 Crane Style (Fight Defensive: -2 attack; +4 AC)
3 Improved Unarmed Strike [Monk]
3 Crane Wing [Monk]
3 Stunning Fist [Monk]
5 Boon Companion
7 Natural Spell (it’s not that useful at 5th level…)
9 Dragon Style or Crane Riposte

Alternative (no domain): Natural spell @ 5, Wild Speech @ 7, no Boon Companion

With good wisdom and strength and someone to use mage armor on you, you can get very good attack/damage and AC. My build assumed starting w/ Wis 18 and Str 16 after racial bonuses (up to Str 24 and Wis 22 from level up bonuses, +2 wis and str items, and wildshape by level 9), ends up at level 9 with AC 32 with mage armor and fighting defensively while in dinosaur form.

[Blyte]

ape shaman, will get you huge sized dire ape by 6th level (8th level ability with ape forms)... which let's you have (3x8hrs) 24hrs of huge ape form.

take throw anything feat.

two-hand an improvised Gargantuan sized club (a tree) and cast shillelagh on it, which gives you a 6d6 attack.

eventually take vital strike for a 12d6 beat stick.

then take improvised weapon mastery, to take it to 16d6 with a 19-20 crit range when vital striking.

you will be bruising things. another option, if you have the levels, is forgo the ape shaman and do it as an elemental.