PC and power surge issue. Any advice?

[Salbazier]

So, I'm almost totally at lost with this kind of stuff.

Previously with my old PC I used to connect it like this: Power socket - UPS - voltage stabilizer - CPU (Only bought the power supply 2-3 years ago since my new place often have black out). It works fine without a problem.

Recently, I bought a new PC. Because of space & stupid unmovable furniture problem I - foolishly - arranged it like this: Power socket - voltage stabilizer - UPS - CPU.

Two problems keep happening (which I let on for a while, again foolishly so):

1) the UPS sometimes having clicking noise - I'm guessing it was power down or something - and whenever it does my computer lag for a moment. The clicking obviously happened with my old PC but not the lag.

2) Asus power surge protection sometimes activates and shut down my PC giving warning 'power surge detected during previous run' on reboot.

I've change it back to previous configuration (power-UPS-stabilizer-CPU) and the lag problem is gone. But the Asus power surge still triggers. There is no sign at all from the UPS or stabilizer - like the clicking noise at 1) - when this happened.

So, uh, what's happening here? What I can't figure out is if the Power surge Protection supposedly doing some protection, why it does nothing when problem 1) happens? Which make suspect if the Asus protect thing is the one being faulty here. On the other hand the more obvious suspect is my UPS, but nothing like this happened with my previous PC, or at least what I identified as such. My previous PC does experience 'sudden reboot/turn off without explanation' problem but I blame it on my old PC being old.

[Mando Knight]

How old is your UPS?

[factotum]

Yeah, I'd be looking at the UPS as well--if it's not capable of supplying clean current when it actually has a power supply, how useful is it going to be when the power goes out?

[Salbazier]

How old is your UPS?

About 3 years.


Yeah, I'd be looking at the UPS as well--if it's not capable of supplying clean current when it actually has a power supply, how useful is it going to be when the power goes out?

It still works fine when I have power out though.

[Drumbum42]

Does the UPS have a Display or any Software with it that tells you if the voltage is too low, or if it's having a problem with supplying needed power?

Normally I'd say that it's the battery (because it's almost ALWAYS the battery with a UPS), but if it works when the power goes out the battery should be fine. The only reason a computer would lag out because of a UPS is either:
A) A drop in current/voltage, but this generally just causes a blue screen/force reboot. This is probably bad capacitors in the UPS, but could be anything.
B) The UPS software on the computer has compatibility issues and stalls the computer when it talks to the UPS. I'd try reinstalling this, because it's cheaper then getting a new UPS.

If it is a voltage/current drop I'd replace the UPS immediately, it can be very damaging to electronics. Also I've never bothered to use a voltage regulator before, I don't suppose this could be acting up?

[Salbazier]

Does the UPS have a Display or any Software with it that tells you if the voltage is too low, or if it's having a problem with supplying needed power?


No, the UPS don't have any display or software to install. All it have is two power socket and lamp indicator.



Normally I'd say that it's the battery (because it's almost ALWAYS the battery with a UPS), but if it works when the power goes out the battery should be fine. The only reason a computer would lag out because of a UPS is either:
A) A drop in current/voltage, but this generally just causes a blue screen/force reboot. This is probably bad capacitors in the UPS, but could be anything.

Yes, this what confuses the heck of me. Especially with Asus anti-surge present. I expect it to trigger if there's voltage drop, not lag out. Which make me wonder of Asus anti-surge detection is being faulty.



B) The UPS software on the computer has compatibility issues and stalls the computer when it talks to the UPS. I'd try reinstalling this, because it's cheaper then getting a new UPS.

If it is a voltage/current drop I'd replace the UPS immediately, it can be very damaging to electronics. Also I've never bothered to use a voltage regulator before, I don't suppose this could be acting up?

I don't think so. Its an old thing but, as said above, the stabilizer actually eliminates prob no 1 when I put it between UPS and CPU.

Right now, it seems even more likely that UPS is faulty. I stopped using it for now and just connect directly to power socket (with voltage stabilizer). So far, there has been no forced reboot happened.

EDIT: Well, now one such reboot just happened. :smallfurious: Now it is more likely that this 'Asus anti surge' (new shiny that don't exist in my old PC who ever work fine without) is faulty.

[Drumbum42]

A UPS in meant to keep a computer running stable regardless of outside electrical conditions. If the UPS is CAUSING issues, then there's no point in having one.

Given that you've had no issues with just plugging it into the wall I'd replace it. They don't cost THAT much, and it's cheaper then replacing your PC from brown/black outs.

So, normally I tell people that Computers don't run off magic, but this time, I got nothing. That's just weird. I hope this fixes your issue!

[Salbazier]

A UPS in meant to keep a computer running stable regardless of outside electrical conditions. If the UPS is CAUSING issues, then there's no point in having one.

Given that you've had no issues with just plugging it into the wall I'd replace it. They don't cost THAT much, and it's cheaper then replacing your PC from brown/black outs.

So, normally I tell people that Computers don't run off magic, but this time, I got nothing. That's just weird. I hope this fixes your issue!

Didn't realize you already posted a reply. See edit above. The Anti-Surge keep trigger even with direct connection to socket.

[valadil]

How much stuff do you have plugged into the UPS? I used to plug my printer into it because, well, the extra outlets on the UPS were the most convenient. Then I upgraded to a laser printer and suddenly the battery kept draining really quickly. Now I keep a non-UPSed surge protector nearby for my printer and amps.

[Salbazier]

How much stuff do you have plugged into the UPS? I used to plug my printer into it because, well, the extra outlets on the UPS were the most convenient. Then I upgraded to a laser printer and suddenly the battery kept draining really quickly. Now I keep a non-UPSed surge protector nearby for my printer and amps.

Just the CPU. What is a surge protector and amps?

[Drumbum42]

Does the computer restart when plugged directly into the wall? Or how about plugged into the UPS but not the Voltage regulator? If it is still doing it, it could be the computer itself, and that is a whole separate problem!

Also, I assume this is a Desktop? Running windows on it? I may be able to walk you through reading system logs (very time consuming though) to see what is causing the issue.


ps: and to answer your question about surge protectors and amps...
A surge protector does just that, protects you from power surges. Like a circuit breaker. If say lightning hits a power line or if the electricity spikes it will cut power to everything plugged into it. The surge protector may fry, but all the devices connected to it will survive. (probably)

And I think by "amps" he meant a musical amp/speaker, like for a guitar. (I was confused myself for a second, because amps are also electrical current, which is the current topic)

[Salbazier]

Does the computer restart when plugged directly into the wall? Or how about plugged into the UPS but not the Voltage regulator? If it is still doing it, it could be the computer itself, and that is a whole separate problem!


If you mean directly without the stabilizer/regulator, I haven't try it and not keen on trying because I never trust wall socket to give a steady voltage by itself (this country's electricity is rather problematic). As said above Socket-stabilizer-UPS-CPU configuration give both problems of lag and anti-surge triggered restart while Socket-UPS-stablizer-CPU and socket-stabilizer-CPU only caused problem no 2 (antisurge triggered restart). I haven't tried to set it as Socket-CPU or Socket-UPS-CPU.


Also, I assume this is a Desktop? Running windows on it? I may be able to walk you through reading system logs (very time consuming though) to see what is causing the issue.

Yes to both. Windows 7. If you are willing to do that, I'll be very grateful. Right now, I don't even know where to look for system log and or make sense what the setup menu or voltage monitor tell me.



ps: and to answer your question about surge protectors and amps...
A surge protector does just that, protects you from power surges. Like a circuit breaker. If say lightning hits a power line or if the electricity spikes it will cut power to everything plugged into it. The surge protector may fry, but all the devices connected to it will survive. (probably)

And I think by "amps" he meant a musical amp/speaker, like for a guitar. (I was confused myself for a second, because amps are also electrical current, which is the current topic)

Thank you for the answers. Maybe I should put surge protector on to-buy list? Although, it doesn't seem to me what the motherboard/ASUS software read as power surge here is equivalent to magnitude something that can trigger a circuit breaker (this just a guess though)

[Drumbum42]

If you mean directly without the stabilizer/regulator, I haven't try it and not keen on trying because I never trust wall socket to give a steady voltage by itself (this country's electricity is rather problematic). As said above Socket-stabilizer-UPS-CPU configuration give both problems of lag and anti-surge triggered restart while Socket-UPS-stablizer-CPU and socket-stabilizer-CPU only caused problem no 2 (antisurge triggered restart). I haven't tried to set it as Socket-CPU or Socket-UPS-CPU.

I'd try Socket-UPS-CPU, and I agree that plugging it into a wall would be a bad idea. The UPS should give you a good steady current as they generally switch to battery power before accepting a voltage too high or low. (So it may switch on and off the battery if the current goes wild) That shouldn't impact your computer though, as long as the battery is charged.



Yes to both. Windows 7. If you are willing to do that, I'll be very grateful. Right now, I don't even know where to look for system log and or make sense what the setup menu or voltage monitor tell me.

Thank you for the answers. Maybe I should put surge protector on to-buy list? Although, it doesn't seem to me what the motherboard/ASUS software read as power surge here is equivalent to magnitude something that can trigger a circuit breaker (this just a guess though)

I can walk you through it, but lets see if we can rule out the UPS or volt regulator first. It can take a while to read through enough logs to figure out what's up. And make sure to write down the exact time the computer restarts next time, this will make hunting through logs a lot faster.

Disclaimer:
Also, if it does turn out to be the computer I'd recommend having some one look at it in person. I can suggest ideas, and help with some simple stuff, but as I can not see your computer I could do more harm then good. I don't know if you have a friend or IT pro you can call to take a look, but a friendly tech on the internet is no replacement for boots on the ground. I wouldn't worry about it yet, but it may be necessary.

I simply play a high level Magic-User, I can not actually cast spells. (Though that can't stop me from trying....)


ps: Oh, and your UPS should have a built in surge protector. It's a pretty standard thing.

[Salbazier]

I'd try Socket-UPS-CPU, and I agree that plugging it into a wall would be a bad idea. The UPS should give you a good steady current as they generally switch to battery power before accepting a voltage too high or low. (So it may switch on and off the battery if the current goes wild) That shouldn't impact your computer though, as long as the battery is charged.

I can walk you through it, but lets see if we can rule out the UPS or volt regulator first. It can take a while to read through enough logs to figure out what's up. And make sure to write down the exact time the computer restarts next time, this will make hunting through logs a lot faster.

Disclaimer:
Also, if it does turn out to be the computer I'd recommend having some one look at it in person. I can suggest ideas, and help with some simple stuff, but as I can not see your computer I could do more harm then good. I don't know if you have a friend or IT pro you can call to take a look, but a friendly tech on the internet is no replacement for boots on the ground. I wouldn't worry about it yet, but it may be necessary.

I simply play a high level Magic-User, I can not actually cast spells. (Though that can't stop me from trying....)


ps: Oh, and your UPS should have a built in surge protector. It's a pretty standard thing.

OK, I'll try some hours in different config and came back to you later.

As for the disclaimer, I'm completely understand. Even if this end up with my CPU going back to shop for repair, at least I'm going there with clearer idea what is wrong with it.

Thank you so much for the help so far.

[Drumbum42]

Not a problem. I never mind helping someone with computer problems if I can. (That and it's been a REALLY slow day at work, so this has been fun while I watch loading bars go across my screen all day.)

Just a heads up though, I'm going to be leaving in a little over 2 hours, so I may or may not be available if you post 3-4 hours from now. I'll get back to you first thing tomorrow at the latest.

[valadil]

And I think by "amps" he meant a musical amp/speaker, like for a guitar. (I was confused myself for a second, because amps are also electrical current, which is the current topic)

Correct. Should have written "guitar amps". I only mentioned them because I know they use a ton of power.

[Salbazier]

Not a problem. I never mind helping someone with computer problems if I can. (That and it's been a REALLY slow day at work, so this has been fun while I watch loading bars go across my screen all day.)

Just a heads up though, I'm going to be leaving in a little over 2 hours, so I may or may not be available if you post 3-4 hours from now. I'll get back to you first thing tomorrow at the latest.

No problem. I am going to sleep anyway (GMT+7. Way past midnight here) and testing this may took quite some time. The frequency of restarts happening is rather varied. Total from ~30 hours ago I had four restarts with range maybe just 2-3 hours between the first three and maybe around 9 hours before the fourth (and right after I just started to think it was safe). Previously, I can have like a full day or two without any restarts. So yeah, I'm going to give this check at least a day before I dare to even say 'so far it is fine'.

[Drumbum42]

Correct. Should have written "guitar amps". I only mentioned them because I know they use a ton of power.

Amps use a lot of Amps!!! Sorry it was too easy to resist.

Alright Salbazier, no rush. Talk to you tomorrow.

[westom]

Yes, this what confuses the heck of me. Especially with Asus anti-surge present. I expect it to trigger if there's voltage drop, not lag out. Which make me wonder of Asus anti-surge detection is being faulty.
The concept called a 'surge' reported by Asus is something completely different and unrelated to something addressed by your protector or UPS. A third 'surge' can exist on a USB port. Also completely unrelated to other two anomalies that are completely different but share a common noun.

A 'surge' that Asus reports will be quickly identified (and then solved) using a multimeter. A tool that sells for $5 to $18 in many retails stores. With one minute of labor and requested instructions, an Asus 'surge' can be identified and solved immediately. But numbers from six wires must be provided.

Those other 'surges' would be completely irrelevant to and ignored by what Asus can report.

A stabilizer/regulator can create other problems for some computers. Are your incandescent bulbs dimming to 40% intensity? Even voltage that low is perfectly normal and ideal for all computers (if properly designed). Anything that stabilizer/regulator might be doing is already done better by every computer power supply.

Power fluctuations reported by an incandescent bulb changing intensity is a completely different anomaly from what the Asus 'surge' reports.

[Salbazier]

@Drumbum
Well, it just happened. My computer had an anti-surge triggred restart in socket-UPS-CPU config. :smallsigh: No detectable lag during the last twelve hours though.

So, what should I do now?




The concept called a 'surge' reported by Asus is something completely different and unrelated to something addressed by your protector or UPS. A third 'surge' can exist on a USB port. Also completely unrelated to other two anomalies that are completely different but share a common noun.

What is that being detected then?


A 'surge' that Asus reports will be quickly identified (and then solved) using a multimeter. A tool that sells for $5 to $18 in many retails stores. With one minute of labor and requested instructions, an Asus 'surge' can be identified and solved immediately. But numbers from six wires must be provided.

What six wires?


Those other 'surges' would be completely irrelevant to and ignored by what Asus can report.

A stabilizer/regulator can create other problems for some computers.

What kind of problems and how?

Are your incandescent bulbs dimming to 40% intensity? Even voltage that low is perfectly normal and ideal for all computers (if properly designed). Anything that stabilizer/regulator might be doing is already done better by every computer power supply.

Power fluctuations reported by an incandescent bulb changing intensity is a completely different anomaly from what the Asus 'surge' reports.
As far I can tell, my lightbulb's luminosity remains steady whenever the problems occured.

[Drumbum42]

@Drumbum
Well, it just happened. My computer had an anti-surge triggred restart in socket-UPS-CPU config. :smallsigh: No detectable lag during the last twelve hours though.

As far I can tell, my lightbulb's luminosity remains steady whenever the problems occured.

What's an "anti-surge?" Is that a power drop? If so then there's something up with the UPS, because that should NEVER happen if the battery is charged. (Glad to hear about the lag though, we may be on to something)

[Salbazier]

What's an "anti-surge?" Is that a power drop? If so then there's something up with the UPS, because that should NEVER happen if the battery is charged. (Glad to hear about the lag though, we may be on to something)

A feature of Asus motherboard apparently. When the restart happened, after reboot it shows a screen with message "Power supply surges detected during the previous power on. Asus anti-surge was triggered to protect system from unstable power supply unit." That's about all I know currently about it.

[Drumbum42]

A feature of Asus motherboard apparently. When the restart happened, after reboot it shows a screen with message "Power supply surges detected during the previous power on. Asus anti-surge was triggered to protect system from unstable power supply unit." That's about all I know currently about it.

OH, ok, got ya. I should have picked up on that from before. This kinda sounds like the power supply in your Tower. But as westom said, it could be a USB port. I'd check to make sure every USB port checks out, look for bent pins, broken pieces or foreign pieces of metal stuck in there. (You may want to use a flash light)

If it's not that (which it probably isn't, but it's cheaper then the alternative), do you have a spare CPU power supply, or a tower that can part with one for a while? If you do, then you can swap them to see if the issue resolves.

NOTE!!!: Make sure that the power supply is the correct wattage, putting a 250W in a computer that needs 350W is a bad idea. Normally it just won't boot, or tell you the Watt is too low, but it can damage your system if you force it to boot.

Try to find something with equal to or better wattage. So if you currently have a 400W, a 500W would work fine. If you have a 400W a 350W is PROBABLY fine due to OEMs trying to be on the safe side, but make sure to check it online before you "assume" it works.

Also, make sure it has the correct connectors. Some motherboards require an extra 4 pins for the CPU. If you forget to connect this, fans will spin but nothing will happen. (As the CPU has no power)

[Salbazier]

OH, ok, got ya. I should have picked up on that from before. This kinda sounds like the power supply in your Tower. But as westom said, it could be a USB port. I'd check to make sure every USB port checks out, look for bent pins, broken pieces or foreign pieces of metal stuck in there. (You may want to use a flash light)

If it's not that (which it probably isn't, but it's cheaper then the alternative), do you have a spare CPU power supply, or a tower that can part with one for a while? If you do, then you can swap them to see if the issue resolves.


Eh, I do have a spare tower from my old PC but I'm not confident about tinkering with the hardware myself.

I'll give the USB ports a check and see what I can do with the power supply but this is maybe about the point I bring my PC to a repair shop. I still have warranty so hopefully that will save me some money.

[Drumbum42]

Alright, I understand that. But just to recap:
The old computer worked fine with the UPS and Volt Regulator.
The new computer has issues with both the UPS and the Voltage Regulator.
(This rules out either of these being the issues, so it must be the new computer)

Oh, and something I for got to ask. When it restarts it just "goes black" and starts back up? Or does it say "Shutting down" then restart?

(Sorry if we already covered this)

[Salbazier]

Alright, I understand that. But just to recap:
The old computer worked fine with the UPS and Volt Regulator.
The new computer has issues with both the UPS and the Voltage Regulator.
(This rules out either of these being the issues, so it must be the new computer)


Well, not completely 'fine' actually. My old PC actually had its own set of problems, which was the primary reason why I bought a new one. Hard to tell now if any of those has something to do with the UPS. I just shelved it and buy a new one without bother to check what was wrong. Can't test it now either since it has already reached the point where it refused to start up (unless if I bring it to service and let some tech test my old PC).



Oh, and something I for got to ask. When it restarts it just "goes black" and starts back up? Or does it say "Shutting down" then restart?

(Sorry if we already covered this)

It just goes black and then reboot.

[Drumbum42]

It just goes black and then reboot.

Yea, that sounds like hardware. Given that it still did this while on the volt regulator with out the UPS I'd say it's the computer. It's probably the power supply, but either way it needs some one to look at it.

Just make sure to tell them everything you've tested and exactly what it does when it restarts. This will help them get it back to you faster. OH, and I'd make a fast backup of anything you can't live without. (On the off chance that something happens to the PC)

Best of luck and I hope that it doesn't cost anything!

Edit: Or a full backup if you have the space

[Salbazier]

Yea, that sounds like hardware. Given that it still did this while on the volt regulator with out the UPS I'd say it's the computer. It's probably the power supply, but either way it needs some one to look at it.

Just make sure to tell them everything you've tested and exactly what it does when it restarts. This will help them get it back to you faster. OH, and I'd make a fast backup of anything you can't live without. (On the off chance that something happens to the PC)

Best of luck and I hope that it doesn't cost anything!

Edit: Or a full backup if you have the space

Definitely full backup. Again, thank you very much for the help.

[westom]

It just goes black and then reboot. That is what the power controller does. A power controller monitors various inputs to decided if and when the CPU can even execute. Learn why a power controller is causing it to go black and reboot. Defect quickly identified (without any 'it might be ...' speculations) by using a multimeter, one minute of labor, and requested instructions. Numbers from six wires mean no more 'it could be' answers. But that means getting the meter and specifically asking for directions.

An incandescent bulb would have completely eliminated speculation about the UPS or its battery. Your symptoms implies a specific list of components that define a power 'system'. PSU is only one component. Power controller is another component. Numbers from a meter can say which 'component' is suspect. But only if you get that meter and ask for directions.