Phantom Steed and Falling off

[Silva Stormrage]

Are there any rules for falling off a mount due to the mount going too fast? My main comment is on Phantom steed. Right now a player is using it to go about 130 MPH as it constantly flies about 100 feet in the air. Personally I feel that should send the caster to go flying off the mount as the caster has 8 strength and no ranks in ride. Is that reasonable?

[TaiLiu]

I don't think so, no.

[Namfuak]

Riding a horse that was "running" through the air would probably be closer to riding a motorcycle on the highway than actually riding a horse running that fast. The main thing that would throw you off in real life is the constant up and down of the horse hitting the ground and going off again - in real life, you have to learn how to flow with it, which would probably be a dexterity (ride) check rather than a strength one. However, the phantom steed isn't actually bouncing up and down, so the ride is likely to be much smoother (like a motorcycle on a highway). You don't have to be particularly strong to resist the air friction on a motorcycle going very fast, so I don't see why you would with a steed.

[Silva Stormrage]

Riding a horse that was "running" through the air would probably be closer to riding a motorcycle on the highway than actually riding a horse running that fast. The main thing that would throw you off in real life is the constant up and down of the horse hitting the ground and going off again - in real life, you have to learn how to flow with it, which would probably be a dexterity (ride) check rather than a strength one. However, the phantom steed isn't actually bouncing up and down, so the ride is likely to be much smoother (like a motorcycle on a highway). You don't have to be particularly strong to resist the air friction on a motorcycle going very fast, so I don't see why you would with a steed.

Hm that actually makes a great deal of sense. I am not the best with that kind of physics so I just assumed the 130 miles per hour speed and wind would through him off the mount.

[Slipperychicken]

Are there any rules for falling off a mount due to the mount going too fast? My main comment is on Phantom steed. Right now a player is using it to go about 130 MPH as it constantly flies about 100 feet in the air. Personally I feel that should send the caster to go flying off the mount as the caster has 8 strength and no ranks in ride. Is that reasonable?

Sort of. "Stay in Saddle" works for this, although as expected, any rider worth his salt should be able to remain mounted.


Stay in Saddle (DC 5)
You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action.

8 Strength is not as crippling as you think. He's only a -1 below average. Where a Str 10 character would have rolled an 18, he would have a 17. It's a tiny, almost imperceptible difference with little real consequence.

[TaiLiu]

Does it really count as "rears or bolts unexpectedly?" The spellcaster probably expects the speed, no?

[Slipperychicken]

Does it really count as "rears or bolts unexpectedly?" The spellcaster probably expects the speed, no?

Better hope the Phantom Steed doesn't get spooked. Those things aren't trained for war, you know.

If he needs to do tricky maneuvering like dodging around trees, then he should make the check to remain in the saddle.

[TaiLiu]

If he needs to do tricky maneuvering like dodging around trees, then he should make the check to remain in the saddle.
The player's flying in the air.

[Namfuak]

The player's flying in the air.

He might have to dodge the tracks an epic ranger uses to track people through the air.

[TaiLiu]

He might have to dodge the tracks an epic ranger uses to track people through the air.
:smallbiggrin:

[Barlen]

He shouldn't be going anywhere near 130 mph on the steed.

The phantom steed moves at 20 ft per round per caster level, maxing out at 240 ft per round.

Looking at the table Movement and distance (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Movement) in the srd we see that for every 10 ft/round movement rate the game assumes 1 mi/hr overland speed (20ft = 2mi, 30 ft = 3mi etc). Therefore the max speed of the phantom steed is 24 mi/hr.

Granted the table's estimate is a little off. 10 ft per round = 100 ft per minute = 6000 ft per hour. An actual mile is 5280 ft. Using (240 (ft/round) * 10 (rounds per minute) * 60 (minutes per hour))/5280 ft/mi = 27.27 mi/hour. Easier to use the table of course.

[Jeff the Green]

He shouldn't be going anywhere near 130 mph on the steed.

The phantom steed moves at 20 ft per round per caster level, maxing out at 240 ft per round.

Looking at the table Movement and distance (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/SRD:Movement) in the srd we see that for every 10 ft/round movement rate the game assumes 1 mi/hr overland speed (20ft = 2mi, 30 ft = 3mi etc). Therefore the max speed of the phantom steed is 24 mi/hr.

Granted the table's estimate is a little off. 10 ft per round = 100 ft per minute = 6000 ft per hour. An actual mile is 5280 ft. Using (240 (ft/round) * 10 (rounds per minute) * 60 (minutes per hour))/5280 ft/mi = 27.27 mi/hour. Easier to use the table of course.

That's overland, not max speed. Max speed would be running, which at 240' per round is 320 fps or ~218 mph.

[Krobar]

That's overland, not max speed. Max speed would be running, which at 240' per round is 320 fps or ~218 mph.

A round is six seconds. How do you figure that 240'/round (40'/second) equals 320'/second?

The only thing I know of that can fly at 218 mph is a ship with a Major Spelljamming Helm. And even then the caster powering it has to be in epic levels to get that kind of velocity.

Am I missing something because I haven't had my bacon and coffee yet this morning?

[Jeff the Green]

A round is six seconds. How do you figure that 240'/round (40'/second) equals 320'/second?

Because you can move 4x your speed in a round by running.

[Krobar]

Because you can move 4x your speed in a round by running.

I quote the SRD:

"A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per caster level, to a maximum of 240 feet."

"14th Level
The mount can fly at its speed (average maneuverability)"


How do you figure it can run 4x faster than that? It says "maximum of 240 feet" and "can fly at its speed"; nowhere does it say it can fly 4 times that speed if you're in a hurry. It's a spell, with a specified effect, not a living creature. In other words, that's its MAXIMUM speed, not its BASE speed.

That aside, the numbers in the post I quoted were actually EIGHT times the listed speed.

240'/round = 40'/second. Multiply that BY EIGHT and you get the 320'/second you mentioned.

[Kaeso]

Are there any rules for falling off a mount due to the mount going too fast?

No, but there are rules about catgirls dying every time you bring real life physics into DnD discussion, you monster

[only1doug]

I quote the SRD:
It's a spell, with a specified effect, not a living creature. In other words, that's its MAXIMUM speed, not its BASE speed.



You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature.
The mount has an AC of 18 (-1 size, +4 natural armor, +5 Dex) and 7 hit points +1 hit point per caster level. If it loses all its hit points, the phantom steed disappears. A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per caster level, to a maximum of 240 feet. It can bear its rider’s weight plus up to 10 pounds per caster level.


The spell specifically conjours a creature (which can be killed), that creature has a speed. the default for creatures is that any speed listed is a base speed and the creature can take a run action to move faster.

speed in miles per hour (in DnD only) = speed in Ft/round divided by 10.

240 ft/rnd = 24 miles / hr,
run speed = 24 x 4 = 96 miles / hr

Edit:

Run
A character with a Constitution score of 9 or higher can run for a minute without a problem. Generally, a character can run for a minute or two before having to rest for a minute.

A phantom steed has a constitution score of - and so cannot run

[ddude987]

No, but there are rules about catgirls dying every time you bring real life physics into DnD discussion, you monster

Those poor poor soleless creatures

[ddude987]

The spell specifically conjours a creature (which can be killed), that creature has a speed. the default for creatures is that any speed listed is a base speed and the creature can take a run action to move faster.

speed in miles per hour (in DnD only) = speed in Ft/round divided by 10.

240 ft/rnd = 24 miles / hr,
run speed = 24 x 4 = 96 miles / hr

There are still limits in the srd about running so it could not run the entire time.

edit: double post noob...I'm tired *facepalm*

[only1doug]

There are still limits in the srd about running so it could not run the entire time.

edit: double post noob...I'm tired *facepalm*

I wasn't claiming that it could maintain the speed, just that it could run if it wanted to (as a burst of speed) but I changed my mind on that one.

Also, see my edit: wherin I change my mind

(The mount could however hustle if desired, creating a burst speed of 48 miles/hr)

[Tulya]

Phantom Steed's description says it has a move speed of its scaling value, not that it moves that value per round.*

While the Phantom Steed is Hustling, it uses both of its actions to move at its move speed, moving a total of twice its move speed per round. (480' per round at max, normally.)
While the Phantom Steed is Running, it uses a full-round action to move at 4x its move speed, moving a total of four times its move speed per round. (960' per round at max, normally.)

The 8x value is presumably arising from applying the Run speed to two move actions rather than running as a full-round action.

*Edit: Actually, it just says "speed", but that's the way most monster stat blocks refer to move speed.

[ddude987]

It certainly can't run but I would not bar it from double moving. Its MAXIMUM speed is 240 feet. speed is taking in one move action. Therein, it can move 480ft/rd. or 48 mph.

This still doesn't explain the op and how the speed is so high

[only1doug]

To address the OP:

Are there any rules for falling off a mount due to the mount going too fast? My main comment is on Phantom steed. Right now a player is using it to go about 130 MPH as it constantly flies about 100 feet in the air. Personally I feel that should send the caster to go flying off the mount as the caster has 8 strength and no ranks in ride. Is that reasonable?

From SRD

Ride skill
Typical riding actions don’t require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem.

No, the player should not need a ride skill check to avoid falling off during normal riding.



Phantom Steed's description says it has a move speed of its scaling value, not that it moves that value per round.

While the Phantom Steed is Hustling, it uses both of its actions to move at its move speed, moving a total of twice its move speed per round. (480' per round at max, normally.)
While the Phantom Steed is Running, it uses a full-round action to move at 4x its move speed, moving a total of four times its move speed per round. (960' per round at max, normally.)

The 8x value is presumably arising from applying the Run speed to two move actions rather than running as a full-round action.

The run action can only be taken by creatures with a constitution score that is 9 or higher


Local Movement
Characters exploring an area use local movement, measured in feet per minute.

Walk
A character can walk without a problem on the local scale.

Hustle
A character can hustle without a problem on the local scale. See Overland Movement, below, for movement measured in miles per hour.

Run
A character with a Constitution score of 9 or higher can run for a minute without a problem. Generally, a character can run for a minute or two before having to rest for a minute. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#runx4)

[Debihuman]

The PC is flying at 24 MPH not 130 MPH (as already stated), unless somehow he has managed to haste his phantom speed, and in that case he is flying at 48 MPH.

Since the rider has no ranks in ride, he has to succeed at a Ride check (DC 5) to remain in the saddle. How often you want the PC to make this check is up to you. Normally, riding a horse (or in this case a phantom steed) is not that difficult. If you want him to make a check whenever he assents or descends, that is up to you. How onerous do you want to make this? It sounds to me like you want to punish the player for breaking rules you hadn't yet grasped.

Assuming he falls 100 feet, as a spellcaster why wouldn't he just cast feather fall and negate the falling damage?

Debby

[Tulya]

The run action can only be taken by creatures with a constitution score that is 9 or higher

... Huh. That comes up so rarely with player characters, I'd completely forgotten. Hustling has no such limitation, so the Phantom Steed should still be eligible to Hustle as normal, unless I'm missing something else.

[Devas]

The run action can only be taken by creatures with a constitution score that is 9 or higher

That rule only applies to creatures that have a constitution score, unless noted otherwise, as explained by the rules for Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities):

Constitution

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

[ksbsnowowl]

That rule only applies to creatures that have a constitution score, unless noted otherwise, as explained by the rules for Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities):

Constitution

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).
Indeed. The Phantom Steed can run, moving 960 feet in a single six-second round. It can maintain this pace until the spell ends, as the rider desires.

960 * 600 = 576,000 feet per hour = 109.09 miles per hour.

It's a good way to travel. Only a few dragons and a small group of other things will be able to chase you down.

[Debihuman]

Indeed. The Phantom Steed can run, moving 960 feet in a single six-second round. It can maintain this pace until the spell ends, as the rider desires.

960 * 600 = 576,000 feet per hour = 109.09 miles per hour.

It's a good way to travel. Only a few dragons and a small group of other things will be able to chase you down.

While using a fly spell, a creature can run while flying. However, the phantom steed spell doesn't state that a phantom steed can run and it certainly doesn't state that the phantom steed can use the run action while flying.

If you allow it to use the run action, it negates the statement that "A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per caster level, to a maximum of 240 feet."

I don't think the intent of WotC was to have phantom steeds whizzing about at over 100 miles an hour but who knows.

Here is how I would likely rule it: A phantom steed cannot RUN while FLYING. It can Run on the ground at 960 feet per round, but it cannot do that in the air. Its flying speed is set by the spell 240 ft. If it is hasted, you can get it to 480 feet. That's still slower than its max run speed.

Debby

[Devas]

A phantom steed cannot RUN while FLYING. It can Run on the ground at 960 feet per round, but it cannot do that in the air. Its flying speed is set by the spell 240 ft. If it is hasted, you can get it to 480 feet. That's still slower than its max run speed.

Debby

Sure it can. As spelled out under Movement Modes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) in the SRD:

"A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line."

Even if that wasn't the case, it could just use its ability to Air Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/airWalk.htm) at will.

[Krobar]

I like how the spell write-up says the Phantom Steed has a maximum speed of 240 feet, and so many people read that to mean it can be doubled or quadrupled when you feel like doing so.

It says "maximum" speed, not "base" speed.

From what I recall (away from books right now) it is your base speed that can be doubled, quadrupled, etc. through hustling, running, etc.

"Maximum" means "maximum", not "maximum unless you want to go faster than that."

At least that's how I rule it in my game. You want a Phantom Steed that can go faster? Write a higher level version of the same spell, and change the wording to "base speed" or increase or even remove the part about maximum speed of 240. Back when we used Phantom Steeds to get around (before we teleported all over the place or used our Spelljammer) that is what we did.

[Toliudar]

A phantom steed cannot RUN while FLYING. If you allow them to run, it can run on the ground at 960 feet per round, however, it cannot do that while flying. It only flies at 240 feet per round. If it is hasted while flying, you can increase it to 480 feet per round That's still slower than its max run speed.

I'd like to see rules sources for all of those statements. Let's break it down:


The run action can only be used in connection with overland movement.
The Phantom Steed also can't use the hustle (double movement) action in a round.
Haste doubles a movement rate.


I don't think any of those is true.

There doesn't seem to be any restriction on 'running' in other movement forms. Stormwrack is explicit: if you're a race with a swim speed, you can make a run action while swimming.

The phantom steed spell explicitly creates a creature with a movement speed, not a spell that moves an object at a fixed rate per round.

Haste gives a +30 enhancement bonus to your movement speed.

For the OP:

It may be a more useful limitation to more strictly enforce the limitations imposed by Average Maneuverability. They have to move at least 120' in a given round or else they stall and drop 150'. They can't turn if they're moving more than 480' in a round. Their turning circle is 20' wide. No hovering and blasting. No U-turns in tunnels (although they can just land at the end of one move and fly off again in a new direction next turn).

[Debihuman]

Since the subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, why not do the same for the phantom steed?

Haste: All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. So you'd have to haste it a number of times to get the full benefit of haste but it could be done. I didn't say one application would be sufficient though it could be taken that way.



Debby

[shadow_archmagi]

There are still limits in the srd about running so it could not run the entire time.

Well, arguably, as a supernatural thing, it wouldn't necessarily get tired, in the same vein as warforged.


I quote the SRD:
not a living creature.

*I* quote the SRD:



You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature...The mount has an AC of 18 (-1 size, +4 natural armor, +5 Dex) and 7 hit points +1 hit point per caster level.


The spell creates a creature, with a base speed that can be modified by actions. Just like an Orc can move twice his speed by taking the charge action, the mount can move four times its speed via the Run action.

Maximum speed is clearly meant to indicate the point at which the base speed stops increasing, not the fastest the phantom steed can ever travel (does that mean if a phantom steed is on a train, it starts getting dragged backwards, as it cannot go faster than that?) If "Maximum" were intended to be anything other than an indicator of when caster level stops adding bonuses, then a 10th level spellcaster couldn't Empower a fireball, since fireball can only ever deal a maximum of 10d6 damage. And of course, if he cast it on a mummy, it wouldn't be doubled either, because the damage cannot increase!

[Devas]

I like how the spell write-up says the Phantom Steed has a maximum speed of 240 feet, and so many people read that to mean it can be doubled or quadrupled when you feel like doing so.

It says "maximum" speed, not "base" speed.

From what I recall (away from books right now) it is your base speed that can be doubled, quadrupled, etc. through hustling, running, etc.

"Maximum" means "maximum", not "maximum unless you want to go faster than that."

At least that's how I rule it in my game. You want a Phantom Steed that can go faster? Write a higher level version of the same spell, and change the wording to "base speed" or increase or even remove the part about maximum speed of 240. Back when we used Phantom Steeds to get around (before we teleported all over the place or used our Spelljammer) that is what we did.

The spell writeup does not say that the Phantom Steed has a maximum speed of 240 feet. It says: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm) "A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per caster level, to a maximum of 240 feet." That only tells us that the value of its speed cannot be higher than 240 feet.

[Toliudar]

Since the subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, why not do the same for the phantom steed?

Debby

Well, because the fly spell is a spell with other specific effects that aren't standard for flying creatures. A larger carrying capacity, for example, and different movement rates for different levels of encumbrance.

Also, because now that I've stopped being lazy and actually checked the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly):


A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

[Toliudar]

The spell writeup does not say that the Phantom Steed has a maximum speed of 240 feet. It says: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm) "A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per caster level, to a maximum of 240 feet." That only tells us that the value of its speed cannot be higher than 240 feet.

So? That means that its movement rate caps at 240', just like a human's maximum speed is 30'.

[shadow_archmagi]

So? That means that its movement rate caps at 240', just like a human's maximum speed is 30'.

Right. But a human can charge to move 60' or run to move 120,' because run and charge are actions that are available to everyone. So if your Speed is 240', then you can Charge for 480 or you can Run for 960'.

[Debihuman]

I suppose after this discussion I'd be inclined to allow it to run even while flying though it seems to violate the intent of the spell (which limits it to 240 feet).

And you were right, I had misapplied haste. It would only get 30 more feet. It's been a while since I used haste obviously. Multiple applications do not stack and I'd forgotten that.

So, let's see how fast we can get the phantom steed flying. 240 +30 =270x4=1,080 or 648,000 feet per hour (which is about 127 miles per hour).

Debby

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, it's horselike, right? So can we get some magic horseshoes for it to give it another buff?

[Toliudar]

Shadow_archmagi and Debi: Yes, that's my understanding as well.

[Debihuman]

Since we're being generous and allowing that quasi-real creatures can magic items, sure give it horseshoes of speed for another 30 feet of speed. This stacks with haste since they are different sources. Of course, each time you conjure it, you have to refit its shoes :-)

By the way how long does it take to affix horseshoes?

Debby

[Krobar]

The spell writeup does not say that the Phantom Steed has a maximum speed of 240 feet. It says: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm) "A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per caster level, to a maximum of 240 feet." That only tells us that the value of its speed cannot be higher than 240 feet.

Riiiight. "to a maximum of 240 feet" obviously doesn't mean "to a maximum of 240 feet." Is that what you're saying? That maximum doesn't mean maximum, and can be multiplied if you decide you're in a hurry?

lol.



So? That means that its movement rate caps at 240', just like a human's maximum speed is 30'.

A human's BASE speed is 30'. Not its maximum speed. That's why it can be multiplied when hustling, running, etc. But "maximum speed" is exactly that - maximum speed.

[Lightlawbliss]

observation I have made: nobody is including that the steed could be doing a dive...

that would be another x2

and then we can start doing physics and seeing if diving and climbing makes u move faster long distance.

x=x_0+vt+at^2

[Silva Stormrage]

Wow this got busy when I wasn't paying attention.

We ruled that the phantom steed was a horse like creature and that it's movement speed was 20ft/CL. Since it was a creature without a con score it could run indefinitely and thats where I got the approximate 130 mph.

And the situation here isn't in combat, the player suffered a teleportation mishap (Joy four way party splits) and was stuck in the middle of the ocean, he flew upwards quite a way up and spotted two islands about 150 miles away and thus was using phantom steed to race towards them. He really hasn't used it that much in combat.

[Debihuman]

It gets 20 feet per caster level to a maximum speed of 240. However, the spell is silent on whether the phantom steed then can use the run action or be hasted or even use magic horseshoes. All of those are a DM's call. Not everyone will rule the same way.

So did the PC fall off the steed?

Debby

[Phelix-Mu]

The game is largely silent about the exact extent that physics is a real thing. My epic monk can move at a rate of 220', but that is pretty outrageous if you think about it. With some swordsage stuff and another trick or two, she can move the length of a football field and still have a standard action left, all in six seconds. Contemplating her hustle or overland movement gets silly in a hurry.

I would imagine, personally, that a spell that lets someone move very quickly as one of its primary effects should also make such rapid transit safe from the normal stuff (bugs in the eye, windburn, whiplash) that one might have a problem with at that speed.

Honestly, irl, moving above 30 mph is dangerous, and that's surrounded by a steel cage. If someone hits anything, even a small bump, at 130mph, the results would be hideous if the spell didn't somehow protect the subject from the momentum and velocity.

[Silva Stormrage]

I let the PC ride the mount that fast as I just likened it to riding a motorcycle really.

[nedz]

The game is largely silent about the exact extent that physics is a real thing. My epic monk can move at a rate of 220', but that is pretty outrageous if you think about it. With some swordsage stuff and another trick or two, she can move the length of a football field and still have a standard action left, all in six seconds. Contemplating her hustle or overland movement gets silly in a hurry.

I would imagine, personally, that a spell that lets someone move very quickly as one of its primary effects should also make such rapid transit safe from the normal stuff (bugs in the eye, windburn, whiplash) that one might have a problem with at that speed.

Honestly, irl, moving above 30 mph is dangerous, and that's surrounded by a steel cage. If someone hits anything, even a small bump, at 130mph, the results would be hideous if the spell didn't somehow protect the subject from the momentum and velocity.

What is this momentum of which you speak ?

If he falls off he takes falling damage, well probably not because he's a wizard, based upon how high he is above the ground, not based upon how fast he's moving.


I let the PC ride the mount that fast as I just likened it to riding a motorcycle really.
Since he has no way of measuring the actual distance to the islands, nor accurately measuring the passage of time: he will have no idea about how long it takes him to get there. He's going to arrive at the speed of plot basically.

Does the plot call for him to fall off ?

[Namfuak]

Riiiight. "to a maximum of 240 feet" obviously doesn't mean "to a maximum of 240 feet." Is that what you're saying? That maximum doesn't mean maximum, and can be multiplied if you decide you're in a hurry?

lol.




A human's BASE speed is 30'. Not its maximum speed. That's why it can be multiplied when hustling, running, etc. But "maximum speed" is exactly that - maximum speed.

I don't understand what you are arguing - the base speed IS 20+CL, up to a maximum of 240.

[Snails]

Wow this got busy when I wasn't paying attention.

We ruled that the phantom steed was a horse like creature and that it's movement speed was 20ft/CL. Since it was a creature without a con score it could run indefinitely and thats where I got the approximate 130 mph.

And the situation here isn't in combat, the player suffered a teleportation mishap (Joy four way party splits) and was stuck in the middle of the ocean, he flew upwards quite a way up and spotted two islands about 150 miles away and thus was using phantom steed to race towards them. He really hasn't used it that much in combat.

Really, that is the intention of the spell. It is a poor man's Teleport. To move a party requires multiple castings of a 3rd level spell instead of a single casting of a 5th level spell. It is mechanically balanced -- good enough that high level casters will sometimes use it, but limited enough that such would be unusual.

IMO "Speed" has a specific mechanical definition within the rules. Moving four times my "Speed" when I "Run" is perfectly okay.

I have seen this used in combat, and it is hilarious. It was the end of the day of a long haul trip when we found our likely combat, and we have half an hour of time left on our rides. Yes, the enemy can easily pop the Steed, but spending an attack action you kill something that cannot hurt you is often a losing move.

[Krobar]

I don't understand what you are arguing - the base speed IS 20+CL, up to a maximum of 240.

Maybe I didn't understand what YOU were arguing. All I've been trying to assert throughout this thread is that "to a maximum speed of 240'" means exactly that. It's a maximum speed, meaning it can't be exceeded. Even if you're in a hurry (lol).

If it was given as a BASE speed, it could be exceeded by hustling, running, etc., just like a human's listed base speed of 30 could be exceeded by the same.

That's the only point I'm trying to make in this. And as another poster so eloquently put it, other DMs may rule differently. Every game is unique, after all, but that is the rule as I read it.

[Sith_Happens]

A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per caster level, to a maximum of 240 feet.

When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor).

A phantom steed has a maximum speed of 240 feet. Running lets you move four times your speed. Ergo, a phantom steed can run 240*4=960 feet.

The fact that the spell omits the word "base" is irrelevant, because so do the rules for running.

[TuggyNE]

Maybe I didn't understand what YOU were arguing. All I've been trying to assert throughout this thread is that "to a maximum speed of 240'" means exactly that. It's a maximum speed, meaning it can't be exceeded. Even if you're in a hurry (lol).

If it was given as a BASE speed, it could be exceeded by hustling, running, etc., just like a human's listed base speed of 30 could be exceeded by the same.

That's the only point I'm trying to make in this. And as another poster so eloquently put it, other DMs may rule differently. Every game is unique, after all, but that is the rule as I read it.

The point is, you're misreading a CL cap on the "speed" stat (which, as noted, is used verbatim as the baseline for run/hustle multiplied velocity) as a cap on total velocity per round, which it isn't. "Speed" in D&D, with no qualifiers, means more "how fast can you go in a move action with the stated or assumed movement mode" than "how fast can you go per round".

Similarly, "AC" all by itself in the description of the Mounted Combat feat means regular non-touch non-flat-footed AC.