Yet another gestalt question!

[gurgleflep]

How well would a barbarian and a ninja gestalt together? I wouldn't wear any armor, but with the bonuses from the ninja my AC would still be half-decent, and on top of that I've got a d12 for HD instead of the d6. The additional 10 bonus feet for my base land speed isn't bad either!

If I were to play as this (and I likely won't seeing as I'm the only person in our rather small group willing to DM :smallfrown:), I'd just go straight with those two classes.
I don't know which race would be best for this though.

[Nettlekid]

It probably wouldn't be particularly bad. You get good BAB, two good saves, Ninja is pretty MAD anyway so even though the stats don't compliment Barbarian too well it's not a huge loss, Barbarians are designed for light armor so no armor isn't much less, and between the HD and Rage your usually fragile Ninja self is a little tougher. I recommend trading in your fast movement for Pounce, because Ninja Sudden Strike is harder to activate than the Rogue's Sneak Attack, and so if you get the chance to charge a flat-footed opponent you'd want more attacks to get the most out of that Sudden Strike.

[gurgleflep]

It probably wouldn't be particularly bad. You get good BAB, two good saves, Ninja is pretty MAD anyway so even though the stats don't compliment Barbarian too well it's not a huge loss, Barbarians are designed for light armor so no armor isn't much less, and between the HD and Rage your usually fragile Ninja self is a little tougher. I recommend trading in your fast movement for Pounce, because Ninja Sudden Strike is harder to activate than the Rogue's Sneak Attack, and so if you get the chance to charge a flat-footed opponent you'd want more attacks to get the most out of that Sudden Strike.

I know Pounce is one of the barbarians ACFs, but is it in one of the books? I've never really looked for it.
Also, thank you for the suggestion on that :smallsmile:

[Nettlekid]

Yeah, Pounce is in Complete Champion. You trade in your fast movement to become more devoted to your Spirit Totem, which grants different abilities based on what animal it is. Lion Totem grants Pounce. It's very useful, and one of very few ways to get a LA +0 PC with Pounce.

[gurgleflep]

Yeah, Pounce is in Complete Champion. You trade in your fast movement to become more devoted to your Spirit Totem, which grants different abilities based on what animal it is. Lion Totem grants Pounce. It's very useful, and one of very few ways to get a LA +0 PC with Pounce.

That's actually pretty cool, thank you :smallsmile:
Are there other totems listed in the book as well? I've heard of quite a few.

Also, sorry for the late reply.

[shadow_archmagi]

In terms of basic gestalt-theory, it's a good combination, since Barbarian provides hit-dice and BAB and passive class features (and Rage, which is free action so same thing) while Ninja, if I recall correctly, provides things to do with your actions. Even if it doesn't, it provides different passives, so it's still a solid combo.

On the other hand, Barb and Ninja are both really low tier, so you still won't end up with a particularly versatile character.

[Nettlekid]

There are, but Lion is the best. Bear gives you Improved Grab (the monster ability, not Improved Grapple), Eagle gives you +4 on Spot and Search, Fox gives you +4 Hide and Move Silently, and Wolf gives you an extra +2 attack when flanking. There are also other kinds of totems from Unearthed Arcana, which give up more things (like fast movement and uncanny dodge and trap sense, but sometimes not all of those) for various benefits. I think that's the in the SRD if you were to look.

[gurgleflep]

In terms of basic gestalt-theory, it's a good combination, since Barbarian provides hit-dice and BAB and passive class features (and Rage, which is free action so same thing) while Ninja, if I recall correctly, provides things to do with your actions. Even if it doesn't, it provides different passives, so it's still a solid combo.

On the other hand, Barb and Ninja are both really low tier, so you still won't end up with a particularly versatile character.

We play for fun more than anything, so if the character isn't all that great but it's fun to play it's all good.
And I've got to know, what's your avatar supposed to be? All I can think of is Darth Vader went Lich, murdered Santa and took his hat or something :smalltongue:


There are, but Lion is the best. Bear gives you Improved Grab (the monster ability, not Improved Grapple), Eagle gives you +4 on Spot and Search, Fox gives you +4 Hide and Move Silently, and Wolf gives you an extra +2 attack when flanking. There are also other kinds of totems from Unearthed Arcana, which give up more things (like fast movement and uncanny dodge and trap sense, but sometimes not all of those) for various benefits. I think that's the in the SRD if you were to look.

I'll look through the SRD for the rest, thank you :smallbiggrin: You've been quite helpful!

[Namfuak]

In terms of basic gestalt-theory, it's a good combination, since Barbarian provides hit-dice and BAB and passive class features (and Rage, which is free action so same thing) while Ninja, if I recall correctly, provides things to do with your actions. Even if it doesn't, it provides different passives, so it's still a solid combo.

On the other hand, Barb and Ninja are both really low tier, so you still won't end up with a particularly versatile character.

I actually disagree, I think this might be able to qualify for tier 3. Barbarian alone is pretty godly in melee, and with sudden strike it gets better. The ninja's Great Leap will also synergize with Leap Attack, so with leap attack+pounce+power attack+shock trooper+great leap you can jump around the battlefield without having to make running starts and do pretty scary damage. Ninja provides enough skill points and class skills for it to be a decent skillmonkey (although I can't figure out why they gave it 6+int instead of 8+int, but whatever). Unfortunately Ninjas are missing Diplomacy as a class skill, so you can't really be the party face, but you can still find and disable traps while you aren't fighting at least, and be the party scout.

[gurgleflep]

I actually disagree, I think this might be able to qualify for tier 3. Barbarian alone is pretty godly in melee, and with sudden strike it gets better. The ninja's Great Leap will also synergize with Leap Attack, so with leap attack+pounce+power attack+shock trooper+great leap you can jump around the battlefield without having to make running starts and do pretty scary damage. Ninja provides enough skill points and class skills for it to be a decent skillmonkey (although I can't figure out why they gave it 6+int instead of 8+int, but whatever). Unfortunately Ninjas are missing Diplomacy as a class skill, so you can't really be the party face, but you can still find and disable traps while you aren't fighting at least, and be the party scout.

As a group, we actually place diplomacy into their skill list. It seemed pretty dumb to us that they didn't already have it. They still have the 6+Int modifier though.

After reading your thoughts on this, I've got to say this is going to be fun if I ever get around to playing it :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

We play for fun more than anything, so if the character isn't all that great but it's fun to play it's all good.
And I've got to know, what's your avatar supposed to be? All I can think of is Darth Vader went Lich, murdered Santa and took his hat or something :smalltongue:



I'll look through the SRD for the rest, thank you :smallbiggrin: You've been quite helpful!
My personal favorite SRD ACF is wolf totem. It and horse totem are the only two that don't give up fast movement, and you need fast movement to trade it for pounce. Moreover, horse totem is terrible, and improved trip is pretty great. Another good thing to do would be taking the whirling frenzy rage variant. You get a second attack at your highest iterative, and you get a +2 to armor class instead of +4 con. The only downside is that all of your attacks in a round get -2 to hit, but that just balances out the strength bonus. It's a really favorable trade off in general. What you're left with is my standard barbarian load out of spirit lion totem wolf totem whirling frenzy barbarian. It's pretty great in general. I don't know how much ninjas add to the situation, but barbarians are sweet.

While you're at it, you might want to pile on a standard barbarian intimidation build. It goes imperious command (Drow of the Underdark P 50), instantaneous rage (complete warrior p 102), intimidating rage ( also complete warrior p 102), and the never outnumbered skill trick (complete scoundrel p 87). What you're left with is a barbarian who is able to launch into a frenzy at any time which causes all enemies within range to cower for one round and be shaken in the following round. It's about as good of an intimidation build as you can get.

[gurgleflep]

My personal favorite SRD ACF is wolf totem. It and horse totem are the only two that don't give up fast movement, and you need fast movement to trade it for pounce. Moreover, horse totem is terrible, and improved trip is pretty great. Another good thing to do would be taking the whirling frenzy rage variant. You get a second attack at your highest iterative, and you get a +2 to armor class instead of +4 con. The only downside is that all of your attacks in a round get -2 to hit, but that just balances out the strength bonus. It's a really favorable trade off in general. What you're left with is my standard barbarian load out of spirit lion totem wolf totem whirling frenzy barbarian. It's pretty great in general. I don't know how much ninjas add to the situation, but barbarians are sweet.

While you're at it, you might want to pile on a standard barbarian intimidation build. It goes imperious command (Drow of the Underdark P 50), instantaneous rage (complete warrior p 102), intimidating rage ( also complete warrior p 102), and the never outnumbered skill trick (complete scoundrel p 87). What you're left with is a barbarian who is able to launch into a frenzy at any time which causes all enemies within range to cower for one round and be shaken in the following round. It's about as good of an intimidation build as you can get.

Ninjas add quite a few skills the rogues have, plus quite a few stealth related things.

That sounds pretty epic :smallsmile: Isn't there a feat that makes it so for Intimidate you add your strength modifier instead of Charisma (You may have named it for all I know :smallredface:)
Have you got any racial or template suggestions for this particular build?

[eggynack]

The only thing I found that can add strength to intimidate checks is intimidating prowess, but that's in pathfinder. As a sidenote, X stat to y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) is a super useful thing. I've always thought about breaking out the intimidate happy barbarian. I'm pretty sure that it's around first place for intimidation, along with zhentarim soldier fighters. Either way, I usually stick to humans when I do stuff, cause tons of feats are good when you need large quantities of feats. Still, the+0 playable race list/URL] is hanging out on the front page, so there's probably something out there that can boost cha without hurting your ability to stab stuff.

The best thing about the pile of ACF's though is that they're pretty universally costless. Fast movement, trap sense and uncanny dodge are nice things to have, but they don't really help much when it comes to actually fighting. You basically get a whole combat style with little to no feat investment, leaving you open to do cool things involving intimidation. If you end up doing the whole tripping thing, you should probably pick up [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown"]knock down (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283650) at some point too. You should basically expect to trigger a trip every time you hit by a certain point, and then you get a free hit off of the trip from improved trip.