Logic in my Fantasy: Hellbred using bad powers

[CyberThread]

*puts his hardhat on *

Okay ....here we go, WARNING TO EVERYONE .. about to use LOGIC in D&D , please be warned!



Okay .. awhile ago I had a thread that said , Hey you know, can Hellbred use evil classes and say its good and stuff and stolen power.


Folks were like ask DM , rule of cool, but not RAW.


I want to argue ... it is RAW , and maybe even RAI.

So we have as my proof!!!!!

1. Hellbred can use Evil spells, with no hindrance on himself, as long as they are used for good deeds and not break some sort of conduct code, that is more then just using a evil descriptor spell.

2. THEY gain a devils feat that is VERY specific

When you attempt an attack, save, or check of any
sort, you can beseech the dark powers to aid you. You gain a
+2 bonus on the attack, save, or check.


They get a feat that does that, WHICH

I would like to argue!!


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tp2qE4ZmO0I/UWbQ2ZrQjdI/AAAAAAAADVI/WRT9C_Hh6e0/s1600/Ace+Attorney.jpg


He has access to dark power , that is stolen as he/she is clearly seeking redemption and the dark powers which HATE said person now for rising up against them and cause them troubles, would not grant such power willingly unless they knew it was a temptation , which it has no such side affects for the hellbred.


I REST MY CASE!

[TuggyNE]

*puts his hardhat on *

"his"? :smallconfused::smalleek:

My confusion prevents me from further contributing to this discussion.

Edit: OK, I lied. How do you know Hellbred aren't tempted by that feat mentioned, or by other [evil] acts? Isn't the whole idea that they have one last second chance to get things right, but that the deck is stacked against them?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I ran a game a while back, one guy made a Necropolitan Hellbred Sorcerer, evil as could be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g). As an undead he could stay on the material plane forever if he's careful, so no need to even attempt redemption.

As for a Hellbred using evil classes/abilities and getting away with it, I don't see that happening. He can cast a spell with the evil descriptor as a good aligned Cleric, he can use evil magic items, but that's it. He cannot take classes that require an evil alignment as a good character. As for the devil-touched feats, those are the lower planes tempting the character to turn back to his old ways, rather than any indication of unwritten alignment exceptions that he should be allowed.

[CyberThread]

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I would rather think , in the case of the evil spells, that he has stolen them, rather then some good aligned deity giving him such holy magic.

An combo it off also, that the evil side does not want to tempt him, they want to outright kill him, as per racial fluff on outright hating said creature.

[TuggyNE]

I would rather think , in the case of the evil spells, that he has stolen them, rather then some good aligned deity giving him such holy magic.

That doesn't help a whole lot, since stealing spells (Ur-priest) is evil.


An combo it off also, that the evil side does not want to tempt him, they want to outright kill him, as per racial fluff on outright hating said creature.

Yeah, but they do need to make sure he stays evil enough to get sent back. If he's fully redeemed at death, they lose.

[Darrin]

That doesn't help a whole lot, since stealing spells (Ur-priest) is evil.


Whoa. Stop right there. You used this nasty word, "steal". Can you please point to the alleged aggrieved party? Do you have a deed or some documented provenance to establish ownership? The alleged "stolen" goods, could you please document their GP value? No? Can you prove that this alleged aggrieved party suffered monetary damages as a result of this alleged "theft"?

If the alleged aggrieved party has a limitless amount of this substance (which apparently doesn't even have a physical form), made no effort to prevent or safeguard it's loss, can't describe when or how much was taken, and hasn't even noticed it is gone, then how, exactly, can this be described as "stealing"?

[CyberThread]

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff4/MrBlarney/AceAttorney/aai_notsofast.gif


You have failed to address the issue. You keep thinking the devils or demons want to tempt him, instead of merely going out and killing him while he is a mere level 1, and has done nothing of note.


Everyone knows the higher the level you get, the greater the will save you have, therefore temptation becomes harder as they level up.


THEREFOR I rest my case on the fact, that at level 20 , it is no longer a temptation, but the fact you have STOLE the power.

I would like to bring up the case

Prometheus vs The Olympian Gods


Much like how Prometheus tooks fire from the gods, Hellbred take dark powers from devils and demons.



Would you really say Prometheus is evil, for giving mortal kind fire to stay warm at night, and feed the hungry cooked food?

[TuggyNE]

You have failed to address the issue. You keep thinking the devils or demons want to tempt him, instead of merely going out and killing him while he is a mere level 1, and has done nothing of note.

OK. So, assuming they are presently unable to kill him (which should be obvious; it's not good for a PC to start out dead), what is their best option? And what is the option implied by "beseech"? Hint: it's the one where they're willingly giving him help for their own ends.


Everyone knows the higher the level you get, the greater the will save you have, therefore temptation becomes harder as they level up.

Who said anything about a Will save? If you really think all temptations are Will saves, well, there's a coupla thousand stories of fallen Paladins to say you nay.


Would you really say Prometheus is evil, for giving mortal kind fire to stay warm at night, and feed the hungry cooked food?

Not going to touch that one. It's irrelevant to D&D, anyway, I think, since there's a much closer analog that's explicitly marked out.

[Renen]

Not going to touch that one. It's irrelevant to D&D, anyway, I think, since there's a much closer analog that's explicitly marked out.

I am pretty sure Ur-Priest is evil because they defy ALL gods. Hellbred sound like they are only screwing over the evil ones. As such, I dont think its evil to be stealing from evil.

On other note, where can I find Hellbred? What book?

[Kane0]

Fiendish Codex II, Tyrants of the 9 Hells.



He has access to dark power , that is stolen as he/she is clearly seeking redemption and the dark powers which HATE said person now for rising up against them and cause them troubles, would not grant such power willingly unless they knew it was a temptation , which it has no such side affects for the hellbred.


I would argue that he has access to that power because of how he was created (being fought over by Good & Evil on his way to the afterlife), not his conscious decision to either ask either one for help or take it by force. Rather it is by virtue of both of their contributions to his current life he is able to access abilities form the both of them, represented by the Hellbred stats, including the free devil-touched feat.

[CyberThread]

http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-new/ehow/images/a06/so/p7/make-opening-closing-statement-800x800.jpg


Closing Argument then


If he was made in such a fashion, and had a previous life that had access to some sort of horrible power, I would say that being remade, would give you a conduit to use foul powers((that is why you can use evil spells anyways)) , that someone with mystical knowledge be it divine or arcane, can abuse to steal powers from evil and use them for the goods.


As for the arguments about Prometheus, Zeus is a god as described in pantheons book , therefore a legit D&D relation of story ;)