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Kurald Galain
2013-05-16, 03:51 AM
I am interested in learning more about retroclones. Recent discussion of 5e d&d has led me to the belief that 2e ctually had a very strong design philosophy, but it also contains some outdated concepts as well as mechanics that are inconsistent for no good reason. So could people recommend me a few good retroclones, preferably free ones, and explain what's so special about them, or what makes them better than other RPGs? Thanks!

Machpants
2013-05-16, 04:15 AM
2E has only 2 retroclones and you can only get hold of one ATM so I recommend your only option: Myth and Magic. Myth and Magic is not an exact clone so may have some of the inconsistencies wrung out. You can get a free Player's Starter and GMs starter on RPGNow, enough to play the game for a goodly while. So check it out.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/100492/Myth-%26-Magic-Player%27s-Starter-Guide?term=myth+%26+magic

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/100493/Myth-%26-Magic-Game-Master%27s-Starter-Guide?src=s_pi

The other is For Gold & Glory. But the website is on is down, the author just hasn't got around to sorting out. It is a much closer clone, I think, but moot as it is unavailable ATM.

Kurald Galain
2013-05-16, 04:19 AM
Oh, they can also be 1e retroclones, i believe that 1e and 2e are closely related anyway.

Rhynn
2013-05-16, 07:15 AM
AD&D 1E and 2E are so closely related as to be almost interchangeable. The differences are pretty subtle and small - encumberance (including coin weight), whether you need X,000 or X,001 XP for the next level, spell lists, etc. Mechanics are largely the same. And going back to BECMI (Basic-Expert-Companion-Master-wedon'ttalkaboutImmortal, AKA Mentzer Basic, AKA Rules Cyclopedia), B/X (Basic/Expert, AKA Moldvay Basic) and OD&D, the differences remain slight. You can basically run Basic modules in 2E with very little changes (recalculate XP values for 1E-2E, otherwise use updated monster stats).

AD&D 1E actually doesn't have very many retroclones, either; there's the wonderful OSRIC, and IIRC one other.

My signature has a pile of retroclones, mostly free ones, that are all worth checking out.

My personal preference is actually just AD&D 2E (running off the revised books since I've owned them for years and somehow got extre copies of all three; I far, far prefer the layout, design, and look of the originals though), with a bunch of houserules inspired by reading blogs. But that's mostly because I want to run things like Undermountain, the original Dragonlance modules (intentionally letting the PCs wreck the long-term plot), Dark Sun, and old modules. I think I'd go with Adventurer Consqueror King System if I was going to pick a retroclone to just run with (the tie between ACKS and Dungeon Crawl Classics is broken by DCC's use of weird, odd dice that I'm not going to buy for one game).

Speaking of, the OSR blogosphere is big and beautiful:
Grognardia (http://grognardia.blogspot.fi/), inactive for almost 6 months but full of interesting ponderings.
Planet Algol (http://planetalgol.blogspot.fi/), the coolest sword & sorcery & saucer gonzo Lovecraftian scifi-fantasy setting there is.
The Nine and Thirty Kingdoms (http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.ca/), technical/mechanical and game design thinking.
D&D With Porn Stars (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.fi/), Zak S. supposedly controversial blog, full of cool stuff.
Jeff Rients' blog (http://jrients.blogspot.ca/).
Tales from the Flaming ****** (http://flamingtales.blogspot.fi/).
Swords of Athanor (http://swordsofathanor.blogspot.fi/), more sword-and-planet Conan-meets-Barsoom style fantasy.
Dreams in the Lich House (http://dreamsinthelichhouse.blogspot.fi/), slightly more high-brow.
Monsters and Manuals (http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.fi/), likewise.
The Weirdlands of Xhuul (http://xhuul.blogspot.fi/), another cool old-school setting somewhat in the spirit of Algol and Athanor.
Hill Cantons (http://hillcantons.blogspot.fi/), understated weirdness and awesomeness.

Scowling Dragon
2013-05-16, 07:44 AM
I also suggest myths and magic. Its 2e desigh with the best bits of 3e (3 saves, no racial limits, less focus on dungeons. )


Easy to convert 3e stuff too it and eveneasier to convert 2e stuff too it.
Best retroclone ive seen yet. Also first 10 levels are free.

obryn
2013-05-16, 08:10 AM
There's two kinds of OSR games these days. There's retro-clones (Dark Dungeons, OSRIC), and there's "new" OSR games (Lamentations of the Flame Princess, ACKS, and even stuff like Castles & Crusades and Dungeon Crawl Classics). I've dug a lot more into the retro-clones than the new-OSR stuff.

I own and love OSRIC (the AD&D 1e clone), though I confess that I prefer the general tone and feel of my actual 1e books. :smallsmile: OSRIC does a great job in a few areas, though, like improving the Thief Skills table. I've never regretted the softcover copy I picked up, and it was very helpful for the AD&D game I ran, back when I had time before kids.

However, I'd say my favorite retro-clone right now is Dark Dungeons, because I've slowly come to the conclusion that RC D&D was probably the tightest-designed TSR edition with the clearest vision. I'm still mostly an AD&D 1e guy when we're talking TSR D&D, but RC D&D has a whole lot of good stuff going for it.

If I could only bring one D&D book with me to a desert island, that'd probably be it. You have a completely playable 1-36 system, simple to learn, with some good depth, in a single book. Dark Dungeons captures it very well, and injects a few clarifications and clean-ups.

(Speaking of, I finally managed to snag a hard copy of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia about a week ago. I'd been relying on my PDF and Dark Dungeons. Someone had put the RC up on Amazon for $4, with Prime shipping, and I snapped that up in a heartbeat. $35-$50 is the going rate for it even in "used" condition right now.)

-O

1337 b4k4
2013-05-16, 08:11 AM
Which retro clone you look at depends a lot on what your goal is. If your goal is to get as close as possible to the original rules to see what they had and how they played you'll want things like:

OSRIC (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/) (AD&D 1e)
or
Labyrinth Lord (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html) (B/X, also has an additional book "Advanced Edition Companion" which brings in some of the AD&D classes and concepts while maintaining compatibility with the basic LL books)

There are also a number of retro-clones wherein the authors took most of the same mechanics and ideas and tried to fix some of the inconsistencies and sharp edges, while retaining as much of the original intent as possible. If you're interested in something like that you should look at:

Swords and Wizardry (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/) (0e) My personal recommendation if you want something as a good introduction. Short, sweet, to the point, easy to pick up and easy to hack. Has 3 versions, Core Rules is the place to start. White Box goes way way back to the original 3 booklets for D&D {things like non variable weapon damage, race as class etc}. S&W Complete is basically the core rules plus some AD&D classes. There's a wiki with all the rules in SRD format but the book itself is not free.

Dark Dungeons (http://www.gratisgames.webspace.virginmedia.com/darkdungeons.html) (BECMI / RC) A very extensive and complete set of rules spanning from D&D as we know it through domain building, mass combat and imortal questing. Cleaves very close to the original rules, but the author re-wrote weapon proficiencies and skills into something a bit more consistent. The author also has a "Darker Dungeons" which strays further from the source material and brings in some modern gaming concepts

Lastly there are a number of games which attempt to take the older feel and concepts, but apply new mechanics to them.

AKCS (http://www.autarch.co/) (B/X based)
Adventures Dark and Deep (http://www.adventuresdarkanddeep.com/) (2e based, attempts to re-create 2e if Gary Gygax had never left TSR)
Dungeon Crawl Classics (http://www.goodmangames.com/dccrpg.html) (high lethality, dangerous magic)
Castles and Crusades (http://trolllord.com/cnc/index.html) (1e using 3e mechanics, Gary Gygax's recommended edition after his TSR ouster before LJ/LA came about.

There are a whole mess of others (some of which are linked here http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?665226-A-Master-List-of-D-amp-D-Retro-Clones). Is there something in particular you're looking for that we could narrow things down for you? Definitely poke through some of the blogs Rhynn listed, but I also recommend checking out Greywulf's Lair (http://greywulf.net/) for some of his old game walk throughs (like his Rules Cyclopedia week) and Tenkar's Tavern (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/) as well.

Larkas
2013-05-16, 08:15 AM
What about Hackmaster? I think it was supposed to be a retro clone from AD&D2E? Heard good things about it too. Lends itself well to humorous games (as anything based on the Knights of the Dinner Table should), but its a nonissue running serious games with it (just ignore the humorous monsters, or better yet, refluff them).

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-05-16, 08:46 AM
You should also look into B/X D&D (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/110274/D%26D-Basic-Set-Rulebook-%28Basic%29), it's actually pretty concise and put-together.

Rhynn
2013-05-16, 09:59 AM
What about Hackmaster? I think it was supposed to be a retro clone from AD&D2E? Heard good things about it too. Lends itself well to humorous games (as anything based on the Knights of the Dinner Table should), but its a nonissue running serious games with it (just ignore the humorous monsters, or better yet, refluff them).

AD&D 1E, actually. The difference is almost entirely in tone and presentation (the books even mimic 1E books in layout etc.), but it's a big one.

It was much-loved, and the first one (4th edition) was presumably great at what it did; I could not get over how long character creation took, myself. (I just don't like long character creation for D&D-type games which, in my mind, should accommodate very high lethality.) 5th edition looks very different to me, especially in style (they no longer had the license to use 1E material directly), and while the combat example in the rulebook scared me off (it's D&D 3.X all over again!), the game did look well-designed and "tight."

LibraryOgre
2013-05-16, 10:13 AM
What about Hackmaster? I think it was supposed to be a retro clone from AD&D2E? Heard good things about it too. Lends itself well to humorous games (as anything based on the Knights of the Dinner Table should), but its a nonissue running serious games with it (just ignore the humorous monsters, or better yet, refluff them).

There are two editions of Hackmaster, and they're very different games.

4e Hackmaster was a licensed take on the AD&D 1st edition rules, with some extra stuff and attitude. I'll let others who know it better talk more about it; I bailed when confronted with 8 monster books for $20 a pop.

5e Hackmaster is a new game, with redesigned mechanics and a very tight-though-complicated system. There is a very old-school feel to it, but character creation still take a while (making 3rd level pregens for a con game, I've got it down to about an hour per character... but that's using stats I rolled weeks ago and a pre-chosen race/class combo). It has a slower power curve, with each level in HM being about half a level in AD&D (so a 1st and 2nd level character is close to a 1st level character). It also handles fighters a lot better, giving them more to do without getting terribly wonky about it.

I waver between preferring Hackmaster and Castles and Crusades. Hackmaster is a much better game, IMO, with a better sense of verisimilitude and better design. It's the game I want to run, because there's so much wonderful stuff in it. For the summer game I'm running at my library, though, I'm going with Castles and Crusades, because I can use that game to run all my 1e modules with little more work than subtracting the AC from 20 (TD&D used descending armor classes, while C&C uses saccending). The rest of C&C can be boiled down to simple maxims for the DM to use.

Larkas
2013-05-16, 11:17 AM
@Mark & Rhynn: Hey, nice to know! I did flip through 4E's core rulebook pages, and was amused by what I saw at the time, but sadly, never got to play in any HM game. Guess it's worth a second look, then! Specially the 5E, it seems to lend itself quite well to grittier games if its power curve is that "low" (completely arbitrary concept here) and verisimilitude is a plus. Thanks for the pointers, guys! :smallsmile:

Hiro Protagonest
2013-05-16, 01:34 PM
I've wanted to try Hackmaster 5e for a while, but I don't want to buy and learn another rules-heavy RPG, and the reason that my 3.5 friends don't want to play 4e is because they don't want to pay again and learn a whole new game, so I doubt I could convince them to play it with me anyway.

Rhynn
2013-05-16, 01:36 PM
HackMaster Basic (http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_94&products_id=862&osCsid=e16b8bc8723f97968ff5d99f2a03422e) is FREE to download! :smallbiggrin: That's half the complaint removed. Y'all can give it a go for free, and if your friends feel like learning it after all, there you go.

Greylond
2013-05-18, 06:25 PM
4e Hackmaster was a licensed take on the AD&D 1st edition rules, with some extra stuff and attitude. I'll let others who know it better talk more about it; I bailed when confronted with 8 monster books for $20 a pop.


One of the great things about HM4 is that you don't NEED the monster books. You can take AD&D 2nd Edition monsters, add the HM Hit Point Kicker(+20 HPs for all but "Tiny" monsters) and go. I ran my first HM4 campaign for almost 2 years that way before I picked up any of the monster books. Those I got as Con Swag(ALL Eight).

One of the really cool things about Kenzer&Co is that they give a lot of support to Cons, even small regional ones. So, if you attend as many Cons as you can, even your local ones, you should be able to pick up some cool swag. Mark, you are about to find out how much swag K&Co brings to a Con next week... ;)

This advice goes for most games, if you are GMing a game(any game, not just HM) at a Con, ask the Con Staff if they contacted the publisher of the game for swag. You'd be surprised how many don't think of it, and you'd be surprised how many game companies will send stuff. No all of them will send swag, but you'll never get any unless you ask. :)

For the last 7 years I've got to at least 3 local Cons per year and not only have I not paid for tickets, I GM enough to get in for Free, but also, each time I come home with enough swag so that if I HAD paid the entry fee I would have gotten enough swag to repay my fee. I can't recommend going to local cons enough, you pick up Swag and you get to meet new gamers. WIN, WIN!

No Cons in your area? it's pretty easy to start a Game Day Event on your own, you'd be surprised how easy. :)

Sorry to derail the Thread, but here's some advice for Retroclones. A lot of the time you can go to a Con and someone may be running one of the Retroclones so you get to try it out before buying, yet another WIN Situation. :)

137beth
2013-05-19, 04:39 AM
Has anyone suggested Mazes and Minotaurs yet? It is free, and I found it easier to follow than the AD&D official rules.

Rhynn
2013-05-19, 05:13 AM
Has anyone suggested Mazes and Minotaurs yet? It is free, and I found it easier to follow than the AD&D official rules.

:smallcool: It's been in my sig since I made it. It's too much of a hassle to dig up and link all the retroclones I like to recommend every time, so I just say "see sig"...

Mazes & Minotaurs is a cool game with a fun concept and style. Also, Vikings & Valkyries!

hamlet
2013-05-19, 05:16 AM
In the realm of retro clones, there's also the relatively new Adventures Dark and Deep here: http://www.brwgames.com/?page_id=11

I've been playing and playtesting it for years now and it's great fun. I disagree with it sometimes . . . well . . . often . . . but it's a good game that really does work with the philosophy of the old AD&D games and is better organized than AD&D 1e.

It also has a kickstarter going currently for its bestiary.

Larkas
2013-05-20, 03:53 PM
Oh, I guess most people in the Playground won't have access to this, but there's also a neat little retroclone called "Old Dragon" that bears mentioning. It is, as far as I know, a retroclone of OD&D made in Brazil. If nothing else, their books (http://redboxeditora.com.br/loja/categoria-produto/olddragon/) are very cute! So, in case you're Brazilian and looking for a retroclone, you might as well try it out! :smallsmile: The authors are also regulars at the few conventions held in Brazil, so you might've stumbled upon them and not even know it! :smallbiggrin:


One of the great things about HM4 is that you don't NEED the monster books. You can take AD&D 2nd Edition monsters, add the HM Hit Point Kicker(+20 HPs for all but "Tiny" monsters) and go. I ran my first HM4 campaign for almost 2 years that way before I picked up any of the monster books. Those I got as Con Swag(ALL Eight).

One of the really cool things about Kenzer&Co is that they give a lot of support to Cons, even small regional ones. So, if you attend as many Cons as you can, even your local ones, you should be able to pick up some cool swag. Mark, you are about to find out how much swag K&Co brings to a Con next week... ;)

This advice goes for most games, if you are GMing a game(any game, not just HM) at a Con, ask the Con Staff if they contacted the publisher of the game for swag. You'd be surprised how many don't think of it, and you'd be surprised how many game companies will send stuff. No all of them will send swag, but you'll never get any unless you ask. :)

For the last 7 years I've got to at least 3 local Cons per year and not only have I not paid for tickets, I GM enough to get in for Free, but also, each time I come home with enough swag so that if I HAD paid the entry fee I would have gotten enough swag to repay my fee. I can't recommend going to local cons enough, you pick up Swag and you get to meet new gamers. WIN, WIN!

No Cons in your area? it's pretty easy to start a Game Day Event on your own, you'd be surprised how easy. :)

Sorry to derail the Thread, but here's some advice for Retroclones. A lot of the time you can go to a Con and someone may be running one of the Retroclones so you get to try it out before buying, yet another WIN Situation. :)

Ack, I just wish it were so easy to set up those Game Day Events around here, and get support from the companies. :smallfrown:

Greylond
2013-05-20, 05:43 PM
Ack, I just wish it were so easy to set up those Game Day Events around here, and get support from the companies. :smallfrown:

You might be surprised... ;) You never know until you ask... :)

Larkas
2013-05-20, 09:03 PM
You might be surprised... ;) You never know until you ask... :)

Oh, well, guess you're right. I'll try organizing something when I do have the time (i.e.: don't have RL breathing down on my neck :smallbiggrin: ).

Joe the Rat
2013-05-20, 09:36 PM
No love for Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game (http://www.basicfantasy.org/)? (Besides in Rhynn's Signature)

It's an example of the neo-OSR. It's a chopped down version of 3.x, fit with Old School sensibilities. It's also very easy to kit out if you want something specific. (You could take the core, a handful of class options, the skills & background options, and you're 90% of the way to 5e. Or play it core, and you're doing B/X with ascending AC and race/class combinations.)

But I'm a bit biased.

Matthew
2013-05-22, 06:12 AM
OSRIC is definitely my favourite simulacrum or near-simulacrum game. AD&D 1E and 2E are 99% identical, so I rarely discern between them in practice.

LibraryOgre
2013-05-22, 12:21 PM
OSRIC is definitely my favourite simulacrum or near-simulacrum game. AD&D 1E and 2E are 99% identical, so I rarely discern between them in practice.

I even provide the option, in 2e games, to play the 1e Ranger.