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Vaz
2013-05-16, 06:41 AM
One of my players is looking to branch out a bit with their Evil Bard in a campaign I'm running, and they're looking to increase the effectiveness of their supporting abilities by having some Summonable Monsters.

I've not played a Conjurer before, although I know the theory; but the problem is handbooks dedicated to Conjurer or Batman Wizards don't tend to explain what happens if you fall behind; such as through a slower progression class.

We are currently level 13, and the Bard has just taken Summon Monster 5. However, the player has informed me that he now wishes to go a none-casting advancement prestige class, and the game is looking like it will go through to possibly 18-20th level at the current rate of play.

So, how does Summon Monster 5 stay capable as a CL13ish Spell when up against CR18-20 encounters? As an Evil Caster (so no Good alignments, sadly), is there any utility, or combat potential with them?

Please help, I'm not a fan of DM fiating; either for my players, or against my players, If I can help it.

DeltaEmil
2013-05-16, 06:53 AM
They can provide some flanking and Aid Another bonus (might be more useful if using the Improved Aid Another variant in Rules Compendium and Complete Adventurer), as well as being some meat shields who might once in a while get to make an Attack of Opportunity and make it harder for enemy combatants to shoot the summoner or attack the summoner in melee.

But at level 18, there's a good chance that a simple Greater Dispel Magic or an area of effect combat spell completely annihilates the summoned evil monsters. Or that the monsters can't even hurt the enemy at all, if they even manage to hit in the first place. And if enemies can cleave, then even being a meat shield isn't going to be that useful.

Fouredged Sword
2013-05-16, 07:03 AM
Grapples are still an option. Also, you mentioned a bard. If he uses his music to buff the summons, that makes them much more useful.

One could get metamagic song and persist to allow persisted summons. That can be interesting.

Vaz
2013-05-16, 07:22 AM
That is not an option, sadly.

Metamagic Song Persist requires you to be able to cast spells of that level. Persisting SM5 means I'd need to be able to cast 11th level spells. You cannot even Persist Cantrips, Metamagic Song only means that you do not have to use a higher level spell.

I suppose if he can get the Fiendish Giant Crocodile nearby he can grapple decently.

Korahir
2013-05-16, 11:12 AM
I think his best option is to summon multiple monsters and then buff them via his music and just be the annoying distracting meat shield.

WhatBigTeeth
2013-05-16, 01:25 PM
Bard summons aren't combat material, even when they're the highest level spells available. He'll probably be able to get some utility out of mephits and elementals, but summon monster isn't going to be a viable combat spell, unless he's just really hurting for a way to get a low-CL Ray of Enfeeblement or Obscuring Mist effect.

Without words of creation, there's no way he's getting his IC bonus high enough for the summons to hit reasonably-equipped opposition, even if they do manage to locate and approach CR 18-20 enemies without being accidentally killed with their low HD.

Rebel7284
2013-05-16, 01:31 PM
He wants his 5th level spell to stay equally effective as the monsters get tougher? That's not really possible...

Obviously Sublime Chord can progress casting very fast, but you said he wants a non-casting PrC. Which PrC in particular by the way? Is there anything about his build/feats that you can tell us?

Urpriest
2013-05-16, 04:09 PM
One of my players is looking to branch out a bit with their Evil Bard in a campaign I'm running, and they're looking to increase the effectiveness of their supporting abilities by having some Summonable Monsters.

I've not played a Conjurer before, although I know the theory; but the problem is handbooks dedicated to Conjurer or Batman Wizards don't tend to explain what happens if you fall behind; such as through a slower progression class.

We are currently level 13, and the Bard has just taken Summon Monster 5. However, the player has informed me that he now wishes to go a none-casting advancement prestige class, and the game is looking like it will go through to possibly 18-20th level at the current rate of play.

So, how does Summon Monster 5 stay capable as a CL13ish Spell when up against CR18-20 encounters? As an Evil Caster (so no Good alignments, sadly), is there any utility, or combat potential with them?

Please help, I'm not a fan of DM fiating; either for my players, or against my players, If I can help it.

The bolded bit isn't actually true. Unless he's a Divine Bard, he can Summon creatures of any alignment.

The summoned monsters simply won't be useful in straight-up combat, which is fine because the player isn't building for them anyway. Rather, we're looking for utility and the occasional monster that scales well. Some options:

Earth Elementals are great scouts, since Earthglide is a bit hard to come by.

Planar Handbook gives you Energons, whose full attacks are four Incorporeal Touch Attacks for 1d6 plus 2d6 energy damage. Against the right enemies (low touch AC, pick the right energy type to get through resistances) that's 8d6 or 12d6 a round depending on if DR is present, which isn't shabby for a 5th. They also explode when they die, but this is a more minor benefit since the damage is low.

You've got a few sources of SLAs available. Pretty much everything will be level 3 and lower, but you've got a few good utility things like Magic Circle Against Evil, Tongues, and Major Image.

As mentioned, Grapplers may still be relevant, again intelligently targeted.