Go Shoot Yourself

[Gerrtt]

Can someone shoot themselves in D&D with any of the following types of attacks:

Bow and Arrow
Ranged Touch Attack
Ray Spell
Orb Spell
Sling
Crossbow

and if you had Point Blank Shot would you gain the benefits of it?

[CaladanMoonblad]

Like, on accident? Or on purpose? (suicide)

While I was unable to Google News a story on a self inflicted archery shot, it is feasible to injure yourself (such as shooting your own foot).

A sling... it is feasible to hit yourself in the head while swinging the traditional sling...

... I'm more doubtful on an accidental self inflicted ray or orb spell though : /

If it's a suicide attempt, I would apply the Point Blank Shot feat. If it's an accident, I would not (the PB Shot indicates intention, concentration, attentiveness as part of its reasoning).

Is there an incident that prompted this question? (like a houserule on a natural 1?) Or simple curiosity?

[Gerrtt]

Honestly I read another thread about something and the thought popped into my head.

And yeah, the idea would be to do it on purpose. For example...if you got a way to heal yourself with negative energy, and had the negative energy ray spell, could you shoot yourself with it to heal yourself?

I can't think of a reason why not, since you can pretty easily shoot your own foot with things, but I wondered if it was against the rules. On the SRD all I could come up with was that in the definition for attack roll it refers to attacking an opponent...not yourself. But then again, I could see not needing to make an attack roll since you're not trying to avoid the attack if you plan to hit yourself.

Just curious.

[The Glyphstone]

Find a DM who uses critical fumble rules and start rolling? Eventually you'll get a 1, or 3 1s in a row, and accidentally cause a ray spell to bend around and drive through your ear canal to your brain.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can also CDG yourself with the attack for max damage and a free crit. Not the worst option is you can arbitrarily pass the fort save VS death that occurs regardless of the lethality of the damage.

[CaladanMoonblad]

The rules assume attempted suicide is not going to be part of an rpg based on heroic adventures.

Simply designate yourself as an opponent. How else will you kill your other personalities than a searing ray to the head? lol

I dunno, as a GM, I might require the character to make a Will saving throw to overcome their instinctual nature of "do not consciously hurt yourself." Especially if its the first time your character is trying some game mechanic simply for realism's sake. When you are your own guinea pig, and your life is on the line for some nutty theory... there is going to be some trepidation unless the person has some sanity issues already.

[hydraa]

On purpose use can be that the character cast Masochism and needs to activate the buffing part of the spell.

A arrow or bolt or sling bullet shot up in the air will come back down in the normal world.

Also most of these effects you would need line of sight to yourself, so make sure your keep your eyes open when shooting yourself

[gorfnab]

Manifest the Death Urge psionic power on yourself.

[Snowbluff]

Manifest the Death Urge psionic power on yourself.

Yeah, I was going to say. Wasn't someone in a tournament forced to gun himself down with a pair of Aptitude guns and Lightning Maces? I think he ran out of ammo and broke a damage record.

[gorfnab]

Yeah, I was going to say. Wasn't someone in a tournament forced to gun himself down with a pair of Aptitude guns and Lightning Maces? I think he ran out of ammo and broke a damage record.
That would this Test of Spite match. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457)

[Big Fau]

A sling... it is feasible to hit yourself in the head while swinging the traditional sling...

Nitpick: Traditionally, slings are used as an extension of your arm. You don't spin them, you hold both ends of the sling in your hand and act like you are throwing the rock. Spinning the sling makes your shot horribly inaccurate.

[hymer]

You can also CDG yourself

Well, for you to be able to perform a CdG, you couldn't be helpless, held or paralyzed. So you wouldn't be eligible for CdG'ing, it seems to me.

You can actually shoot yourself, since you have LoS to yourself and are within maximum range. You couldn't hit yourself with a melee weapon, since melee attacks are restricted to be used on an 'opponent'.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Nitpick: Traditionally, slings are used as an extension of your arm. You don't spin them, you hold both ends of the sling in your hand and act like you are throwing the rock. Spinning the sling makes your shot horribly inaccurate.

Video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYea2UDfeY) of Louis Lus Pons, a slinging champion of some kind. Starts at 4:00 or so, but you see the champ demonstrating at 5:30 or so. Notice the multiple swings he uses to build momentum. It is conceivable to hit yourself in the head, although the sling is acting more like a flail at that point.


@Hymer- so... your assertion is d20 doesn't allow one to "fall upon your sword" ? Or run into a spear wedged into a wall? This is effectively a trap. Why does "opponent" seem so conclusive to you that the term can't be applied to the self?

[Fouredged Sword]

I am fairly sure that one could choose to go limp and not resist yourself, rendering yourself helpless by choice.

One can apply the prone condition to oneself.

OOHHH!

Grapple yourself and pin yourself!

Now you are helpless and can't take actions!

[hymer]

@ CaladanMoonblad: My assertion is that I know no rules of 3.5 for suicide by attacking yourself, yes.
Making a trap is expensive and would take a long time. The cheapest I know of costs several hundred gp.
The definition of 'opponent' pretty much disincludes yourself, except in certain highly special cases. In this case, it seems we should take the word at face value rather than coming up with some nonliteral interpretation of the word 'literal'. By RAW, it seems clear to me you can't target yourself with a melee weapon.

Since the OP takes pains to name that this is 'in D&D', it would seem best to answer by RAW rather than what makes sense.
Oh, and yes, you'd benefit (if you can call it that) from Point Blank Shot.

@ Fouredged Sword: By Rule of Funny, sure. But not by RAW. :smallsmile:

[CaladanMoonblad]

@ CaladanMoonblad: My assertion is that I know no rules of 3.5 for suicide by attacking yourself, yes.
Making a trap is expensive and would take a long time. The cheapest I know of costs several hundred gp.
The definition of 'opponent' pretty much disincludes yourself, except in certain highly special cases. In this case, it seems we should take the word at face value rather than coming up with some nonliteral interpretation of the word 'literal'. By RAW, it seems clear to me you can't target yourself with a melee weapon.

Since the OP takes pains to name that this is 'in D&D', it would seem best to answer by RAW rather than what makes sense.
Oh, and yes, you'd benefit (if you can call it that) from Point Blank Shot.


There are specific traps... and they might cost that on the open market... but if a player says "I fall on my sword" you would tell them "No, the rules don't permit that?"

Clearly, someone can hold a sword, point towards their belly, then fall prone onto it. Simple CDG maneuver IMO. There is no monetary cost in this action. Or shoot themselves in the eye with a crossbow bolt. Seems like a CDG to me.

The d20 system doesn't allow you to defecate per RAW. Yet our heroes obviously must do so. Just because a maneuver was overlooked because it did not fit the designers conception of heroic adventure, does no make it impossible. That is what a GM is for.

[Phelix-Mu]

If "ally" includes oneself, then I think you can also count yourself as an opponent.:smallwink:

More to the point, this is actually a useful strategy in a number of situations. Warlock with healing blast or Tomb-Tainted Soul and Utterdark Blast comes to mind first.

More generally, though, you can target oneself with spells that have a range of touch, which normally require an attack roll. There might be an argument to extend targeting oneself with any kind of spell.

Attacking oneself with an unwieldy weapon seems to strain logic more. But hey, the good news is that greatsword to your own face is not the most unrealistic/illogical part of the game.

Death urge power really shows that it is a thing to hurt oneself with ones own attacks.

[hymer]

if a player says "I fall on my sword" you would tell them "No, the rules don't permit that?"

No, if their sincere intention was to kill off their character, I'd say "You die."
Edit: Actually, I'd say "Du dør."


Clearly, someone can hold a sword, point towards their belly, then fall prone onto it. Simple CDG maneuver IMO.

You're making a certain amount of sense, but it isn't RAW.


The d20 system doesn't allow you to defecate per RAW. Yet our heroes obviously must do so.

What's so obvious about that? Technically, there is no ill effect from not defecating.

[CaladanMoonblad]

No, if their sincere intention was to kill off their character, I'd say "You die."
Edit: Actually, I'd say "Du dør."

You're making a certain amount of sense, but it isn't RAW.

What's so obvious about that? Technically, there is no ill effect from not defecating.

Page 18, top of the page, of the DMG.

"Determining Outcomes
You're the arbiter of everything that happens in the game. Period."

So... RAW... you're wrong, anything without rules in the game, becomes a GM adjudication. Just as I said previously. It's the 10th amendment of DND.

[Phelix-Mu]

What's so obvious about that? Technically, there is no ill effect from not defecating.

Well, RAW there is no ill effect, but there would be a weird effect from all normal people consuming organic material that they never subsequently return to the ecosystem. This would be interesting, but likely bad.

Not particularly necessary in a world where Conservation of Matter or Energy are pretty much irrelevant to what is possible.

[MachFarcon]

Ignoring the fact that most of these attacks will have to be made knowingly, all of these various types can hit yourself.

Bow and Arrow - You can shoot yourself in the foot/leg. Still does full damage though!
Ranged Touch Attack - If you can poke yourself, then you are good.
Ray Spell - It normally is shot from your hand. Thus, if you can face palm, you hit yourself.
Orb Spell - This depends on the mechanics of the spell. Is the orb formed and then shot towards your target? In such a case, you can just smash the orb against the offending limb. If both the orb creation and the shooting of said orb happen simultaneously, then I'm thinking you will have to go with the face palm technique.
Sling - Wave above head and slowly lower arm.
Crossbow - Point at limb. Pull trigger.

[hymer]

So... RAW... you're wrong, anything without rules in the game, becomes a GM adjudication. Just as I said previously. It's the 10th amendment of DND.

In this case, the rules could be said to contradict themselves if and only if the DM chooses to ignore a rule, change a rule or invent a new one.
DM A chooses not to deal with defecation in his game at all. DM B chooses to institute a rule set on defecation. DM C chooses not to have rules about it, but says it takes place off screen. How does any of this affect RAW? It doesn't. What any DM adjudicates outside of RAW isn't RAW, though RAW delegate that authority to the DM. Who can, by that rule, choose to ignore it.

Edit: Let me expand on that.

Q: How far away does Point Blank Shot work?
A1: 30'
A2: There is no upper range limit to PBS beyond maximum weapon range.
A3: You can't take that feat, it's been removed from the game.

The first answer is the one we can usefully discuss in terms of what the rules say. The two others, while they may be correct when answered by each their particular DM, are not answers the questioner can use for much of anything when he sits at his gaming table. He's liable to get more confused or misinformed than help from them.

Q: What is the effect if you fail to defecate?
A1: There are no rules that deal with the matter.
A2: You must roll increasingly difficult Fort saves until you fail.
A3: You poop your pants at a particularly inopportune moment.

The first answer is the one that you can use for going on with the discussion. It establishes the baseline for further debate. Those others should be noted as 'personal opinion' or somesuch.
Just because the rules are stupid when forced to deal with things they weren't meant to, that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least look at what they have to say before turning to rule 0, when we seem to be asked 'what do the rules say on this?'

@ Phelix-Mu: Well, they're gonna give it back when they die anyway, aren't they? :smallsmile:

[Telonius]

For the Orb spells, I suppose you could Suggest that somebody cast Spell Turning on themselves, then cast away.

A Ranged Touch Attack would probably work with a spell, using Spectral Hand to target yourself.

For the ranged weapon attacks, if actually targeting yourself isn't an option, you could target a point directly above yourself, and have gravity do the rest.

[Scow2]

For the Orb spells, I suppose you could Suggest that somebody cast Spell Turning on themselves, then cast away.

A Ranged Touch Attack would probably work with a spell, using Spectral Hand to target yourself.

For the ranged weapon attacks, if actually targeting yourself isn't an option, you could target a point directly above yourself, and have gravity do the rest.

Arrows are too light to do any significant amount of falling damage.

[Telonius]

Slaying arrow, willingly fail the fort save? :smallbiggrin: