Best stuff for Two Weapon fighting Fighters [PF & 3.5]

[Kanosint]

Hi,

I'm building a character based on Lann (from Vindictus). This means two one-handed blades. ALL 3e & PF is allowed as long as it's reasonably balanced (including third party).

This means, yes, stuff like Combat Acrobat and the Combat Acrobatics skills from Revised Fighter from Mongoose, etc, are all game.

15pb PF, but my stats will be based on what feats I'll take. Any great ideas that'd fit are welcome, any advice on how to be a great mobile DPSer within the limits of a two-weapon wielding Fighter is similarly welcome.

Thanks ahead for your tips (and no, advice does not entail "Lolz! Two Weapon Fighter will never be effective at DPS" is not a tip, because that part is pretty much set in stone. Like a petrified Dwarf.)

[Frosty]

GO Vella instead. She can reflect projectiles :smallbiggrin:

[cerin616]

How cheesy do you want to go? Im sure you already know that the key to dealing damage with two weapon fighting is to get as many attacks as possible with a whole bunch of added damage per hit. Things that help with this are sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish and the like. A dip into swordsage nets some attacks that add d6s in magic damage.

there are also a ton of builds that exploit mechanics, such as high sword low axe, when you wield a sword and a hand axe, you can get free trip attempts. This works extremely well with an attack of opportunity build with robilars gambit or karmic strike. add in the trip a neighbor on a successful trip and then someone starts a full attack, hits you once, then him and his friend are on the ground

aptitude keen kukris + lightning maces - constantly get free attacks until your opponent is dead. (although good luck getting someone to allow it, I wouldnt even want to play it its so broken...)

[Kanosint]

GO Vella instead. She can reflect projectiles :smallbiggrin:

Heh, yeah, but she's totally cramping Lann's style :P (Plus even harder to 'emulate' with D20)


How cheesy do you want to go? Im sure you already know that the key to dealing damage with two weapon fighting is to get as many attacks as possible with a whole bunch of added damage per hit. Things that help with this are sneak attack, sudden strike, skirmish and the like. A dip into swordsage nets some attacks that add d6s in magic damage.
<SNIP>

Well, I want to be effective enough of an attacker that I can reliably hit and deal serious injuries in 95% of all situations. I do wanna use one-handed slashing weapons, though, and I also don't want to scare my DM off (completely... My unusual builds from earlier characters always had him on edge XD Can't help it, he GAVE me the Necklace of Fireballs... )

That's why I have Quintessential Fighter II on hand so I can actually use my swords for ranged (Projected Strike... Gotta love it).

[cerin616]

Well, the best way to dish out the damage with twf is to maintain base attack (or figure out a way to get it all back, looking at you divine power) and add a ton of extra dice.

taking small dips into a ton of classes, me and a buddy were able to make a character that did 26d6 + 20 on every attack, not including weapon damage.... down side was we couldnt hit anything without divine power on a umd check... BAB of +8...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8650112&postcount=25
here is a list of all classes that grant sneak attack. Sneak attack has the advantage of being easy to activate, via flanking or other shenanigans.

Also, if you get some factotum (or i guess samurai, who getws free magic weapons at xp cost as well...) you can iajutsu focus, and after drawing a weapon and attacking gets to make a check that can add up to 10d6 damage. Quick razors anyone?

Another decent route is to take a 1 level warblade dip for weapon aptitude, which lets you take any weapon specific feat and aplly it to a different weapon. Its obviously intended for things like weapon focus, but according to the wording it applies to any feat that designates a specific weapon. now just use your imagination.

[Morbis Meh]

Well my advice is simple: ad a little ToB in the mix, not necessarily changing your fighter to a warblade but maybe take a couple level dip or take feats to get access to Tigerclaw maneuvers and stances, they were made for TWF

[cerin616]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279079

I also happened to find this in my travels across the internet.

Its long, and brutal to read, but it will help

[Kanosint]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279079

I also happened to find this in my travels across the internet.

Its long, and brutal to read, but it will help

Hmmm, that was an interesting read.

Any good ways to allow Spring Attack to actually fit with Two-Weapon Fighting? The guide showed off a rather interesting point that can really allow some extra power for TWF...

[Fouredged Sword]

I have been working on a build.

Magus 6 (Kensai) / Spellthief 1 / Chameleon 10 / Swordsage 2 / Dragon Fire Adept 1

Breakdown

Magus 6
- You get Int to AC (up to 6) in light armor (you still have ASF, but we will get to that) and the ability to cast spells through and around attacks. You get some nice spells, but they are not the focus of the character

Spellthief 1
- This gets you two things. First 1d6 sneak attack qualifies you for craven, a nice +20 to damage. Second, you get the master spellthief feat to allow zero arcane spellcasting failure in light armor. Also, it makes your caster level equal to the sum of all arcane spellcasting classes you have.

Chameleon 10
- Here is the meat of the build, all spells from all classes, up to 6th level, and you rapidly outpace the magus normal progression of spells. Divine power corrects any BAB issues you feel you have, and wraithstrike turns everything into touch attacks. I would stay in Divine and Arcane focus, but there is an argument for Martial as well (not a good one though, maybe if you burn through your spells for the day switch over)

Swordsage 2
- Ok, here is a little adder. You pick up Wis to AC, and add on assassin's stance for 2d6 extra sneak attack. Take the Shadow Blade feat for Dex to damage and call it a dip.

Dragon Fire Adept
- OK, odd dip at the end of the build, but there is an invocation for + to all knowledge checks, may as well grab it on your way to epic chameleon advancement.

Things to take as feats not accociated with classes
- Knowledge devotion, +1-5 on all attacks
- There is a feat that allows TWF and somatic spells, take it so you can TWF and use Magus abilities.

Ok
Your attacks are
Weapon damage + str + dex + 3d6 +20 +(1-5) + 4 (martial focus)
With full bab (divine power) touch attacks (wraith strike) with +4 (martial focus) +(1-5)

You get
Light armor + Int (up to 6), Dex, and Wis to AC.

ALL SPELLS up to 6th level.

Cool stuff (rage, smite, stuff) 3x per day

+6 to a stat of your choice

Floating feat

[Darrin]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279079

I also happened to find this in my travels across the internet.

Its long, and brutal to read, but it will help

Ok, I can hardly deny the "long", but... "brutal"? I'm not... entirely sure... that was the adjective I was striving for.

Brutal as in "OMG STFU about the rules and just tell me how to kill things" or "kill things even MOAR than that two-handed idiot with the greatsword"?

[Kanosint]

Ok, I can hardly deny the "long", but... "brutal"? I'm not... entirely sure... that was the adjective I was striving for.

Brutal as in "OMG STFU about the rules and just tell me how to kill things" or "kill things even MOAR than that two-handed idiot with the greatsword"?

Not entirely sure what the brutal meant either, though I guess it was a lot to process, so maybe I can see that part...

Loving the ideas so far. Weird question perhaps, but can Bull Rushing help at all with two-weapon fighters? One of the Techniques I'd love to learn requires Improved Bull Rush so I can toss people up with my strikes, buuut can I actually use the feat?

[Darrin]

Weird question perhaps, but can Bull Rushing help at all with two-weapon fighters? One of the Techniques I'd love to learn requires Improved Bull Rush so I can toss people up with my strikes, buuut can I actually use the feat?

In general, no, bull rushing (standard action) and TWF (full-round action) tend to be incompatible. However, if you can fit a Dungeon Crasher build into a TWF chassis (or vice versa), then you can back someone up against a wall, and on every attack that hits, bull rush them for 6d8 additional damage. You need Knockback (from Races of Stone), but this requires you to be large-sized or have Powerful Build (Ex), and there's no way to get either of those without some Level Adjustment or racial HD. You also have to be careful to avoid knocking your opponent out of your threatened area. Half-giant is generally best for this, since you get 2 PP and may want to work dimension hop, expansion, or hustle somewhere into the build.

If you really want to optimize this, then add Battle Jump (from Unapproachable East) and a bunch of teleport effects, like the Shadow Jaunt/Shadow Step/Shadow Blink trio from Tome of Battle. Start with a half-giant, take six levels of Fighter for 6d8 Dungeon Crasher damage, add one or two levels of Spirit Lion Totem/Wolf Totem Barbarian with a dash of Whirling Frenzy, throw on some Mantled Psychic Warrior for dimension hop, then either Swordsage or Warblade + Martial Study (the Shadow Jaunt line has no prereqs other than Initiator Level).

Start by using dimension hop (swift action) to a square 10' above your opponent. Battle jump turns your fall into a charge, pounce gives you a full TWF attack just as you enter the square immediately above your opponent. For each attack that hits, you get a bull rush attempt to slam your opponent into the ground for 6d8 damage. Then you *land* on your opponent, and do falling object damage. If you're particularly heavy to start with and then use expansion to multiply your weight up to 4000 lbs (doubling your size means x8 weight), you should be able to max out the falling object damage to 20d6 without too much trouble. Note that in the Core rules, there is no Ref save to avoid falling object damage... the only way to avoid this, other than the DM making a houserule, is in the Aerial Bombardment rules in Heroes of Battle. Anyway, make a Tumble check (DC 15 to negate 10', DC 30 to negate 20') or make sure your armor has the Falling property (SRD/XPH/MIC) to negate your own falling damage.

Now use Shadow Jaunt (standard action) to do it all again: battle jump -> charge -> pounce -> bull rush into ground -> 6d8 Dungeon Crasher. Land on your opponent again for 20d6 falling object damage, Falling property to negate your own falling damage.

Then use Shadow Step (move action) to repeat everything a third time. If there's anything left of your target other than a fine red mist... guess what happens next round?

If all of that just wasn't quite broken enough... if you can fit Ruby Knight Vindicator 7 on top of all that, you can use Divine Impetus and Divine Recovery to convert all your Turn Undead attempts into even more telepounces. Add a few dozen nightsticks, and your total number of pounce attacks = n/2, where n = your number of Turn Undeads.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, Swordsage or Warblade or a combination there-of is a great TWFer out of the box. Warblade-heavy if you want mundane, Swordsage-heavy if you want a splinter of supernatural abilities in there too.

Shadow Blade to get Dex to damage and some Shadow Hand stances (don't worry, good mundane ones exist if that's an issue), Stormguard Warrior from Iron Heart and Tiger Claw/Desert Wind maneuvers with some swift/immediate action mobility and utility to round it out (generally means Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, White Raven, Setting Sun and Desert Wind). Punishing Stance is really good on level 1 to make TWFer do damage too.


So yeah, if you aren't allergic to Tome of Battle, I suggest going all the way down that path with maybe some small Barbarian or Fighter-dip to get feats you want. But Tome of Battle offers everything TWF could ever want; you could make a good TWFer with just the TWF feats (though they should be consolidated into a single feat; having multiple feats progressively harder to qualify for, where each subsequent one is weaker [penalties on the attack] than the prerequisite is bad game design) and that book.

[Kanosint]

Another question that's perhaps unusual considering I'm building a two-weapon fighter, but a feat that can turn ranged attacks into a cone attack, does such a thing exist? Again, third party is welcome too.

[Spuddles]

Shadow Blade feat gives you dex to damage whenever you're in a shadowhand stance.

The Craven feat adds your character level to damage whenever you make a sneak attack.

3 levels in swashbuckler gets you int to damage, and if it's a PF game, the damage will apply to more stuff

Savvy rogue feat with 3 levels of swash will give you 2d6 sneak attack dice. Assassin's Stance will give you another 2d6.

I would dual wield kukris and pointbuy 10 str. By level 5 or so, on sneak attacks you will be getting 1d4+dex+int+level+2d6 per strike.

[cerin616]

Brutal as in "OMG STFU about the rules and just tell me how to kill things" or "kill things even MOAR than that two-handed idiot with the greatsword"?

Brutal as in it takes a bit of time to read, and i have: 1. a short attention span and 2. A deep interest in the guide.

Put those together and it takes quite the mental effort to do.

[cerin616]

Warblade is a solid choice for what you want to do, and with a swordsage dip nets you some free d6s. I see a lot fo people going for chameleon and such, but im not sure if casting fits with your character.


What is the character you are basing yourself off of fight like? I havnt played vindictus and I would need to do a touch of research to give a good flavor build.

[Ace Nex]

Adaptable lightning maces is fun. I don't know too much about PF but 3.5 lightning maces, maybe combined with Disciple of Dispatcher and Improved Crit. Triple your threat range, and whenever you get a threat you get an extra attack (adaptive lets you move your feats over to your blades). Throw in a level of barbarian or warblade for pounce, add on valorous enchantment/white Raven Charge maneuvers and let your damage output speak for itself. I don't know too much about Dungeon Crasher, but it's pretty crazy from what I've seen, you may want to look it up.

[Fouredged Sword]

Mix disciple of Dispatter, Lightning maces, Aptitude Kuri, and the Blood in the water stance.

Now you get a rapidly scaling +yes to attack and damage rolls as combat moves forward.

Build
Warblade X / Disciple X / Anything

[Kanosint]

Warblade is a solid choice for what you want to do, and with a swordsage dip nets you some free d6s. I see a lot fo people going for chameleon and such, but im not sure if casting fits with your character.


What is the character you are basing yourself off of fight like? I havnt played vindictus and I would need to do a touch of research to give a good flavor build.

Warblade is certainly a good choice, though I find the Quintessential Fighter II Special Techniques also quite fun. Maybe I'll take a feat or two to give me those sweet per-encounter powers, though :)

I'm basing myself on Lann, he's mostly a very swift attacker. He fights with two "short" swords (if you've seen 'em, yeah, those are NOT shortswords, those are at the very least longswords, considering Fiona's longsword is pretty much the same size...) as a rapid DPS attacker. His main shtick is rapid flurries of slashes, and getting out as fast as he went in with a combination of both brief moments of invulnerability when dodging (concealment and plentiful 5' steps for sure) and longer glides that hurt those in his path (spring attack style) if he crits (or even just hits in the EU version). When given more opening he can charge up a wind slash attack, smack opponents up in the air, do a powerful dazing attack followed by a swift leaping slash, a whirlwind attack and his longest but most damaging move in which he rapidly stabs with his blades, does a massively damaging slash before causing a small shockwave.
His main weakness is the fact that he can't take a hit: he tends to go down pretty fast if attacks do hit, so one needs to dodge attacks on most occasions. He also doesn't have much in the way of range: his windslash move is still rather shortranged, so carrying javelins is certainly a necessity.

My plan is to make a character with a fighting style which is as close as possible, weaknesses included, to Lann's, while still being an effective DPS. No one in our group is cheesing (at least not consciously) so there's no need for any dominating builds (despite always loving the Bull Rush/Overrun type builds... They're so satisfying ;3).

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok...

Lets go

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Barbarian 1 / Scout X / Ranger X

For cleric get the knowledge domain, knowledge devotion and travel devotion. This allows you to get a free move action each round.

Barbarian gets you Whirling frenzy and pounce.

Scout X to get you enough skirmish to get swift tracker, stacking scout and ranger levels and ALLOWING SKIRMISH ON FAVORED ENEMIES REGARDLESS OF CRIT IMMUNITY.

Finish out with pure ranger for BAB and free TWFing feats.

Every round you charge a target, traveling up to double your move and hit them with a charging TWFing full attack. Then use the travel devotion feat to fade back out of melee by taking a move action.'

You get large bonuses to defense and damage from skirmish, allowing you to avoid the whole dodge / mobility / spring attack trap.

A night stick will give you enough turn attempts to use travel devotion 4 times a day once everything is said and done.

Start plowing those skill points in knowledge skills (all class skills due to knowledge domain).

Note, a reading of sneak attack and precision rules may allow craven to work with skirmish (read the sneak attack feat section in complete scoundrel). If so, take it. +20 to all attacks each round (and you should be able to do that easy) is killer.

This combo starts at 3rd level (enough for the travel devotion, pounce, and skirmish to kick in) and just keeps going.

If starting at level >3, take scout at 1st level for extra skill points.

Focus Str > Dex > Con > Int > Wis > Cha

Get one of the elves that are +str +dex, -con. Make sure your con is at least 12 after modifiers, but that should give you at least a 16 in both strength and dex, possibly 18, depending on point buy.

Feats
1st - Players choice
3rd - Extra Rage
6th - Improved Skirmish
9th - Swift Tracker
12th -18th - players choice

You could be doing weapon + str + 10d6 + 7 (+20 if craven works) as full attacks each round with
18bab + str + 5 to hit

[Gwendol]

Whirling frenzy barbarian seems appropriate then, perhaps adding in some swashbuckler/rogue (and daring outlaw). Swashbucklers get some acrobatic styles and the two-weapon defence effect (an ACF).

Lion spirit totem whirling frenzy barbarian 2/rogue 3/swashbuckler 5 (minimum to get shield of blades)/ToB class(es) 10

Suggested feats (the basics): TWF, Weapon finesse (swash bonus), Craven, Daring outlaw, Weapon focus (shortswords), combat reflexes

Optional: dual strike, double hit, reaping talons, twin sword style, two weapon rend, two weapon pounce (if barbarian levels are off the table), robilar's gambit

[cerin616]

Ok...

Lets go

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Barbarian 1 / Scout X / Ranger X




Distracting Attack (PHB 2, p 55): Lose animal companion. Whenever you hit with an attack, the enemy is then considered flanked.

excellent for your build also, seeing as flavor wise you dont have a companion.

[Julix]

I'm going lvl 3 Knife Master/Scout. I rolled really well, but I'm not sure how I want to distribute that ideally.
-Rolls were 18, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10

These are my options:
Str 10, 12, 14, 16
Dex 20
Con 14, 16
Int 14, 16
Wis 10, 12, 14
Cha 12, 14, 16

I want a pet, and spent days researching how to get one and came up with some crazy options (including a wild rider or falkner dip), however most options sucked upon looking closer. 3 didn't.

2 lvl Umbral Weaver+ 3 lvl Shadowdancer -> magically prepare for the dark, magically create the dark, see in the dark, kill in the dark! --- but quite a ways away from now.

1 lvl Ranger (Trapper/Freebooter): proficiencies (kuri w/ 18-20 crit range, starknives w/ 20 ft throwing range, medium armor: attach armored kilt to my leather for +1 ac with no downsides; use a masterwork buckler for those rounds where I can't fit in the full attack); Trapfinding (for disarming magical traps, also +1 to disable device); Wild empathy and handle animal should make for easy buy animal/use well. (some other skills like Kn Geo, survival and track) I also get to point out a target (as move action) and give +1 bonus attack & dmg against said target for self and allies. Once I have my store bought critters I'd train them to flank/attack the selected target as well...

Lots of bonuses and they're all now, rather than later. OR

1 (or 2) lvl Witch for a talking UMD wielding Raven or a flank-grappling Weasel (which damages while grappling). The ranger could train weasels, but I'm not exactly sure if they'd ever hit anything, while the Weasel uses my bab! Also I'd take Prehensile Hair (grows out 10 ft, has hand's dex of 20, and int mod str of 3 - so I could punch someone in the face with my mustach or pick their pocket with my freaking hair! Disable device? With 10 ft range I could even just use it to trigger it from afar... Or Healing for healing all my critters (including 4 allies) once / day. Or Feral Speech (Su) to be able to bluff and intimidate (but sadly not diplomatize, since INT is too low) animals. Or Evil Eye for -2 to one kind of rolls for 1 enemy for 7 rounds. Or Ward for +2 AC and +2 saves for one selected ally until they get hit. With magical knack I also cast 0th and 1st spells as though I was 3rd CL.

The last option is to play it clean, and level in Rogue: scout - for the ability to sneak on charge attacks - however I don't have a way to pounce yet, so that leaves me sneak attacking with only one hand. :-(

I'm pretty sure the ranger dip will work/be worth the boni. I'm rather sure with magical knack trading 3 levels as for spell options and 1 lvl for CL for 2d8 sneak and a ****load of skill points would be worthwhile even if I like it and decide to stay a witch (when doing a coup de grace after putting someone asleep using slumber the sneak damage will make it significantly less likely that they'll pass the fortitude check.) And if I don't, extra levels in rogue will give skill points that can go in spellcraft which can be used to make scrolls of all the situationally cool spells for rather cheap.

As for traits, if I go witch (thus stick to daggers instead of kuri) I'll go River Rat (+1 damage with daggers); Or Adopted->Animal Friend (Gnome), to get handle animal as class skill and +1 to will if animal is within 30 ft ?; And Magical Knack (+2 cl).

For the Ranger Adopted->Helpful (Halfling) for +4 instead of +2 when helping; or Adopted-> Elven Reflexes for +2 Initiative - and Armor Master or Extremely Fashionable.

What do you think?

Here's what the witch might look like
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsDvxp_JebLndGNvVjA5ME5QRFBleTAtUWlqSkViT Hc#gid=0

Some advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time,

Julian

[cerin616]

I'm going lvl 3 Knife Master/Scout. I rolled really well, but I'm not sure how I want to distribute that ideally.
-Rolls were 18, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10


Im lost. This is about what now?

[Kanosint]

Im lost. This is about what now?

I'm... not entirely sure. Pirates commandeering my thread?


Anyway, Fouredged sword certainly does feel like he got a lovely build. A shame it's not as Fighter based as I'd like, but the concept is lovely... Maybe I can just use Fighter instead of Ranger...

[cerin616]

you could, but there are certainly ways to switch out the ranger fluff for other combat oriented stuff. you can lose the companion for a flanking attack (which goes awesome with the "add sneak attack dice" thing, seeing as you can always sneak attack however much you want.