powerfull magic items

[Lightlawbliss]

in 3.5: Using the dmg magic Item creation rules, and any normally accepted books, what spells make for good investments in "on command" "on use" or "continuous" magic items? I'm asking both for any specific roles or in general.

[cerin616]

Mind Blank - Immunity to mind effecting anything that doesn't specifically state that it penetrates mind blank.

[thethird]

Let's get continuous wraith strike and use activated true strike out of the way.

[Amiria]

A continuous item (goggles / lenses) of Ebon Eyes (Spell Compendium) costs 3.000 gp by the guidelines. Combine with (Deeper) Darkness to get concealment / 20% miss chance for yourself while you don't suffer a miss chance and can still e.g. sneak attack in magical darkness effects.

Cheap and powerful.

[Chronos]

There aren't really magic item creation rules. There are just guidelines. And for some reason, people tend to focus more on one portion of the guidelines than on other, more important portions.

[Lightlawbliss]

There aren't really magic item creation rules. There are just guidelines. And for some reason, people tend to focus more on one portion of the guidelines than on other, more important portions.
For this use, let's treat the "guidelines" as rules and focus on the portions I am asking about.

[Snails]

There are articles on the Big Six (plus a few others) that are efficient and reliable. Weapons, armor, deflective, resistance, stat enhancement, natural armor are very efficient boosts for the price relative to other options.

Other items that seem to be good values: Cloak of the Mountebank, Boots of Striding and Springing, Boot of Speed, Cloak of Elvenkind, Boots of Elvenkind, Cloak of Minor Displacement.

IMO most items in the DMG are too expensive relative to their adventuring value. As the items are more interesting and complex, the anomaly grows bigger. Based on player behavior, I would argue that ~80% of the DMG items are too expensive by a factor of 3X; in other words, PCs will very enthusiastically sell at 50% market price in order to spend the gold on one of the good items (above).

[Snails]

There aren't really magic item creation rules. There are just guidelines. And for some reason, people tend to focus more on one portion of the guidelines than on other, more important portions.

As the items in the DMG largely adhere to these guidelines, the difference is not important. Any player with a PC who has an item creations feat can very reasonably point to the DMG as an explicit clarification as to what are the reasonable player expectations of the capabilities of the feat, as intended by the game designers.

[CaladanMoonblad]

...

IMO most items in the DMG are too expensive relative to their adventuring value. As the items are more interesting and complex, the anomaly grows bigger. Based on player behavior, I would argue that ~80% of the DMG items are too expensive by a factor of 3X; in other words, PCs will very enthusiastically sell at 50% market price in order to spend the gold on one of the good items (above).

I always saw this as a way to balance the random nature of looting treasure hoards vs. controlling exactly what your character buys.



As for useful spells that are fairly cheap... one of my druid players crafted a Collar of Magic Fang for their animal companion. They eventually added Strength to it (which made it more costly). I run a low wealth game, so my caster players generally pick up the magic item crafting feats.

My players also enjoy Feather Falling Rings, for their cheapness, and ability to negate the chance that a fall will kill them (they don't like to put ranks in Climb).

Even a daily use item that casts "mending" or "make whole" can be a useful investment, especially when recovering rusted or broken weapons through the course of adventuring. This pays for itself long term : P

Even a stamp that cast Arcane Mark 5 times daily could be useful.

An item with Endure Elements as a continuous effect pretty much negates most random weather hazards (one of my players ran a desert themed campaign [open GM policy], and all the heat checks were yawned through when we picked up cloaks of this kind).

Even "Create Water" can be used to make Water Towers that replenish themselves, making desert living less problematic. No whiny moisture farmers in our DnD game : P

[Diarmuid]

Those same guidelines list armor bonus for wondrous items at a price of bonus squared * 1000, but an item of continuous Mage Armor would only cost 2000.

[Snails]

I always saw this as a way to balance the random nature of looting treasure hoards vs. controlling exactly what your character buys.

I have no idea what you mean here. Could you clarify, please?

[CaladanMoonblad]

I have no idea what you mean here. Could you clarify, please?

I had written more, but deleted it because it seemed extraneous to the thread.

So, you have an adventure group, tracking down a quest that involves multiple challenges. After the sum of all the challenges, your adventure group summarizes the loot from the story. The players have no real control over what is in their loot (because it is GM's fiat, or generated via the random loot tables). You might have good stuff, you might not.

Generally, people sell off items that no one can use (at 50% value) and convert to gold. Gold allows people "choice" of equipment. The high market cost reflects how difficult choice actually is for magic items; the cost for that Ioun Stone (+1 CL) is either 40k or whatever challenge generated it (maybe a CR 10 critter or something). In this way, the cost between "found" and "chosen" is such that encourages the Loot Economy. I also found it to be an element of system balance.

For instance... when I first played DnD, my group "found" at least 1 really useful item in our hoards each session (the GM was nice, but it was random who got something useful), but using gold helped us to acquire items that were specifically useful, at a high cost.

Hence... a balance between random weird things vs getting exactly what we want.

Does that help?





Other fun unique items...

... I worked out a Trowel of Wall of Stone. 170k for 5 uses per day at 9th level. OUCH!

Eventually, this item pays for itself if you are running a construction company, but it will take... decades.

[Snails]

... In this way, the cost between "found" and "chosen" is such that encourages the Loot Economy. I also found it to be an element of system balance.

For instance... when I first played DnD, my group "found" at least 1 really useful item in our hoards each session (the GM was nice, but it was random who got something useful), but using gold helped us to acquire items that were specifically useful, at a high cost.

Hence... a balance between random weird things vs getting exactly what we want.

Does that help?

Yes. Thank you. :)

There is a Loot Economy, by some definition, in pretty much every campaign. My experience suggests that the default 3e Loot Economy works less well than (presumably) intended, because the pricing for most non-boring items is wrong.

When a party finds two 10k items, they can keep them or sell them. By selling them both, we are saying "1 item of nominally similar power of my choosing is more than twice as valuable as either of the 2."

That is going to happen, at least some of the time. No big deal.

IME, the selling of the two items happens about 90% of the time overall. But it is not random. Items we would probably call "interesting" get sold 100% of the time.

There are good but boring items -- the Big Six. There are a dozenish other nice items. Everything else is just a pile of magical cash.

Now, this is not a campaign problem. The Loot Economy is the Loot Economy and the players adjust. But it is a Loot Economy that is intrinsically less interesting than it could be, and the end result is that PCs carry magical items that are less interesting.

The underlying problem is most interesting magical items are, in fact, priced wrong. They are not wrong by merely plus or minus 50%. Based on player behavior, I would suggest it is the norm for them to be 3X to 4X as expensive necessary to maintain some kind of mechanical balance.

[Snails]

Those same guidelines list armor bonus for wondrous items at a price of bonus squared * 1000, but an item of continuous Mage Armor would only cost 2000.

I am seeing where you are coming from now. I am one of those people who looks at the rules as a whole, and similarity to an item in DMG trumps the formulas in the chart. That is quite clear in 3.5.

[Lightlawbliss]

not that the path of conversation isn't interesting, but mind getting back to the topic for which this was created? tx

EDIT: also, why would you make a 5/day and not just at will?

[Snails]

EDIT: also, why would you make a 5/day and not just at will?

Because the DM says you may not take at will.

And back you your topic, at will CLW ain't bad for 1800. (But the DM might say no.)

[Lightlawbliss]

There are articles on the Big Six (plus a few others) that are efficient and reliable. ...

anybody got a link to one of these efficient and reliable articles?