Adding in Artificer without destroying the build?

[CoffeeIncluded]

So I made a character who's obsessed with magitech and traps and building mechanical devices. However, buildwise, she's a rogue-swashbuckler; I'm taking Daring Outlaw next level (she's level 5 right now) and will probably dip a level or two of swordsage later. She's a TWFer with very high intelligence; her whole build is centered around throwing out as much sneak attack as possible.

Roleplay-wise, I'm in a homebrew campaign where the characters join guilds, and my character's about to join the research and knowledge guild which does magic and engineering. The DM said that my character will have the most concrete benefits with the guild if she swaps out a level or two of swashbuckler for artificer, as the way she'll get more respect and rewards with the guild.

Here's his post and my response, spoilered for length.

Thank you sincerely for the compliments of Arden's speech. Being a DM with this group is very rewarding.

Now: time for some discussion about Natalia and the Institute.

Natalia has been developed as a rogue/swashbuckler so far, but as a player you are clearly interested in a trapmaster/magician side of her. It's 100% fine if you want to continue treating this side of her as a roleplaying "fluff." But as long as that's true, there's not very far you can take her in practical terms. She won't learn magic just by being a fan any more than Shiny's bard-like attitude will let him Inspire Courage. And in roleplaying terms, she won't go any farther in terms of respect and privilege in the Institute without great focus on the topic- that is to say, spending levels on it.

Therefore, I would like to offer one option (and it is just that: an option, not necessarily a suggestion or recommendation) that Natalia might want to consider: the class of Artificer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060328a). An artificer is a "magical technologist," and they don't cast spells- they craft magic items and imbue them with infusions.

In my opinion, this class speaks to many of Natalia's interests:


A desire to mix magic with technology. (Manmade electricity doesn't exist in this time- Natalia's interest in electricity would have to involve magic)
Interest in and admiration of Mithril's item creation
Rogue-like greed for magic items and a knack for keeping inventory of them.
Interest in Alabastor the Mad Artificer's work. (This path is also the best chance Natalia has of learning more about the Unstable Dagger).
The hit dice and BAB are the same as a rogue (though of course without sneak attack), so she wouldn't be giving up all her combat ability (indeed, the infusions .


In offering Natalia a chance to meet with someone who can train her, I am specifically offering you the option to retrain one or both of your Swashbuckler levels as Artificer levels- if you want to. (If you would rather retrain a rogue level, I suppose that's possible, though in my opinion ill-advised). This option wouldn't require the party to stop while she attends a few years of graduate school or anything like that- she would study as she travels, just as Mithril does, using materials the school gives her.

Obviously Natalia also has the choice of starting artificer at her next level- but my opinion is that merging fighting with rogueing with artificing in this way would lead to a fractured and underpowered character. (Nothing is wrong with playing an underpowered character, but I get the sense that that isn't Coffee's interest).

Unlike a sorcerer, wizard or bard, this option wouldn't step on any other party member's magical abilities (I doubt Mithril would resent Natalia following in her footsteps of crafting magic items). This choice (along with Valen's departure) would make the party a bit magic-heavy, but honestly there's nothing wrong with that, and Kurt is enough warrior for any group :smallsmile:.

Take your time and consider it.


I thought about it, and honestly I wish I knew more about the artificer and how to play the class before playing Natalia, as an artificer and/or factotum suits her much better. The problem is twofold: First, I'm still a novice to the game and I'm not sure I can play an artificer well, as it's much more complex than Natalia's current build. Second, Natalia's entire build is centered around Daring Outlaw, which I get next level, and throwing out as much sneak attack as possible in a round. I'm honestly not sure if I can put artificer anywhere in Natalia's build and make her effective to any extent without scrapping her entire build and starting over. And again, I really don't know if I know enough of the game at this point to use her effectively as an artificer.

I was planning to have Natalia dip swordsage in a couple levels to make her more effective at what she does. Swordsage is explicitly the most magical of the ToB base classes. Maybe we could fluff it as a sort of magitech thing?

I want to do this, but I just don't know about my capabilities, or whether I can synergize it at all. Is it okay if I bring this up with the 3.5 boards and see what they think?

My problem is, how do I put in a level of artificer without screwing over her build and becoming more of a hindrance than a help? I was thinking maybe I could switch out her previous level of swashbuckler for artificer, take swashbuckler again when she levels up so she qualifies for daring outlaw, take her last level of rogue for uncanny dodge, and from there go almost straight swashbuckler except for a swordsage and maybe an artificer dip?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would look and see if you have the skill ranks to make it into trapsmith or chameleon instead.

Trapsmith gives you some non-magic traps and a spell casting list and CL to take some crafting feats.

A dip into chameleon will give you a floating feat that can be used to get item crafting feats as well.

For this build I would retrain swashbuckler levels to duskblade, then go into chameleon. Max out UMD, Spellcraft, and bluff.

Walk into the guild and straight up tell them you are an artificer. You have access to every magic item creation feat and bluff as a class skill.

It would take a lot of rebuilding and retraining, but idealy you retrain one rogue level to spellthief, all swashbuckler levels to duskblade, and then go chameleon.

The ideal build looks something like
Spellthief 1 / Duskblade 4 / chameleon 10 / Abjurent champion 5.

Artificer tends to be an all or nothing affair. Daring outlaw is also an all or nothing deal. I would pivot and start retraining into another build.

[Athedia]

She doesn't need to bluff anyone. She is already in the guild.

[CoffeeIncluded]

And besides, I can't retrain more than one or two levels anyway. For the record, here's Natalia's current character sheet. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=386542)

There's no need to bluff and she's not much of a liar anyway.

[Fouredged Sword]

Herrmmm..

The problem is that you are at minimum 3 levels of non-spellcasting, non-artificer into your build....

Getting the ability to make magic items requires a significant bend into spellcasting.

Maybe retrain the swashbuckler levels into wizard and go unseen seer. You can max out sneak attack by getting sniper's shot and the ranger divination that grants sneak attack based on CL.

Then get the magic item creation feats you want normally.

Something like
Rogue 3 / Wizard 2 / Unseen seer 5 / Arcane Trickser 5 / Abjurent Champion 5

[A_S]

I would 100% go for Chameleon. With an all-inclusive spell list and the ability to sub the floating feat out for any item creation feat you want whenever you have the down time to use it, they make some of the best crafters and wand-users in the game. Since it's a prestige class, you won't have that "I'm 5-6 levels behind when it comes to actually crafting stuff" problem that you'd have if you started taking levels in Artificer now. And their whole "do a little bit of everything" schtick works well with a flamboyant swashbuckler type.

See if your DM will let you do a little retroactive skill shuffling to get in at level 7 (I'd take the third level of Swashbuckler first for int to damage). Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon X is a perfectly respectable build that should excel at buckling swash, always having the right tool, skill, or spell for the job, and crafting the magitech goodies you want.

*edit* If your DM is letting you change levels retroactively, which it seems like he is from your OP, it would be better to go Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Chameleon X, since you don't get an extra sneak attack from Daring Outlaw with 6 levels. That would let you start getting into crafting at level 7 instead of 8.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hm...Except she doesn't have the ranks in bluff or disguise and has a charisma penalty. I really need to think about this, but that's a possibility.

[A_S]

Hm...Except she doesn't have the ranks in bluff or disguise and has a charisma penalty. I really need to think about this, but that's a possibility.

Chameleons cast from Int and Wis (for Arcane and Divine spells, respectively), not from Cha. But yes, if you want to avoid delaying entry for a few levels, you'd have to reshuffle past skill ranks. I was assuming since retraining levels was a possibility, a few skill ranks wouldn't be a big deal.

[Fouredged Sword]

Chameleon is a great class.

Psychic reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) can re-spend your skill ranks and change out any feats you want. It should be cost you no more than some gold and a maximum of 250 EXP.

(I would trade out Two weapon defense for Able Learner, and reshuffle some skill points)

As for the charisma penelty, you get a floating feat. You can point it to skillfocus UMD when adventuring until you get high enough to UMD without it. Disguise is aided by a hat of disguise or by ignoring the skill as a prereq cost. Bluff is ever useful, and you can copy glibness to your spellbook for when you actually want to bluff everything into submission.

Other than that, don't worry about the penelty to the skills. Your ranks will still leave you better at them then most people are by attribute alone.

[A_S]

As for the charisma penelty, you get a floating feat. You can point it to skillfocus UMD when adventuring until you get high enough to UMD without it. Disguise is aided by a hat of disguise or by ignoring the skill as a prereq cost. Bluff is ever useful, and you can copy glibness to your spellbook for when you actually want to bluff everything into submission.

You also don't really need UMD very badly, at least for wand use...you have literally every spell on your list.

[Fouredged Sword]

True, you have just about every arcane and divine spell 1-6th level on your class spellcasting list. Even the nice level lowered bard, assassin, paladin, ranger, and trapsmith spells.

You get haste as a 1st level spell.

The martial focus is also very nice though. +4 to hit and damage works nicely with a casting of divine power (becuse you get cleric casting) and knowledge devotion (floating feat) for some really, really, nice bonuses to both to hit and damage. You already have TWF, so stacking on bonus damage really takes effect. Works on all targets as well, as it is not beholden to crit immunity.

You could make a build that took swordsage 2 level dip (not a bad idea after chameleon) for assassins stance (2d6 more sneak attack damage) and shadow blade.

You could be looking at
weapon damage + Str + Dex + Int + 4 + (1-5 knowledge devotion) + 4d6 sneak attack + 20 (craven)

If you don't end up with +20 damage on every hit before sneak attack and craven you are not trying hard.

on every hit

With BAB equal to your HD due to divine power and Str+4 +(1-5 knowledge devotion) to hit

You can turn into quiet the little blender.

Owls insight will take the swordsage wis to AC and put it into the untouchable range.

Keep in mind that a chameleon that focuses and stays up to rank in his skills and takes the focus on top is commonly better than the base, as the chameleon gets a untyped bonus to thinks like hide/move sci and fort saves.