Superhero's, D&D Statted!

[Immabozo]

I figure The hulk, seeing as he can normal con score, seeing how easy it is to knock him out with gas, but has a very high NA. I would venture to say arbitrarily high. Strength score, seeing as he can jump the height that jets fly, since they fly like 50,000 ish, in D&D terms, that is a DC 200,000 jump check. So the hulk's strength is about 200,000+, his con is probably only about 25 or 26, dex of about 14 or 15.

What would you stat superman at? The flash? Green Lantern? Captain America? Thor? How does Mjölnir stat out and what stats does Thor himself have? What about Iron Man? What stats do the suit give and what would you rate Tony's stats at? Etc.

[cerin616]

What would you stat superman at? The flash? Green Lantern? Captain America? Thor? How does Mjölnir stat out and what stats does Thor himself have? What about Iron Man? What stats do the suit give and what would you rate Tony's stats at? Etc.

p192 of Deities and Demigod.
DR 71/+5
str 92, dex 29, con 32, Int 25, Wis 28, Cha 28

[Immabozo]

p192 of Deities and Demigod.
DR 71/+5
str 92, dex 29, con 32, Int 25, Wis 28, Cha 28

Does it specify stats for Mjölnir?

[karkus]

Does it specify stats for Mjölnir?


Attacks*: Mjolnir, +5 chaotic distance ghost touch holy mighty cleaving returning thundering warhammer +109/+104/+99/+94 melee, +104 ranged *Always receives a 20 on attack rolls; roll die to check for critical hit.
Damage*: Mjolnir, +5 chaotic distance ghost touch holy mighty cleaving returning thundering warhammer 4d8+84/19-20/x3 melee, 4d8+66/19-20/x3 ranged *Always does maximum damage (116 points melee, 98 points ranged).

You could say that. :smallcool:

[Immabozo]

You could say that. :smallcool:

So now we gotta go huntin Thor to get his hammer! Hammer time!

[Rosstin]

Somehow, I doubt you'd be able to use it.

Valkyries in Nethack get to use Mojo, and it's amazing.

[Immabozo]

Somehow, I doubt you'd be able to use it.

Valkyries in Nethack get to use Mojo, and it's amazing.

You bring up a good point. How do you qualify to use Mjolnir?

What is nethack and what is mojo? That thing that got stolen from ausin powers?

[Shpadoinkle]

There was a thread on the old WotC boards that discussed this. I recall that Superman was an Expert with a bunch of Knowledge skills. However, his race was "Kryptonian" and he had tons of racial abilities. Stuff like Cone of Cold, Scorching Ray, and Fly (self-only) at will, huge DR, huge Dexterity, Constitution, and Strength bonuses, and race-specific reactions to Kryptonite. I don't remember much else because it was ages ago, but anything more specific than that would depends on which version of Supes you're basing your interpretation on.

[Immabozo]

That is very true. I guess I could see that ruling for Superman.

[KillingAScarab]

Not too long after Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane came out someone took Wu Jen, Mindbender and Master of the Unseen Hand and combined them into Jean Grey (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870578/X-mens_Jean_Grey,_or_how_to_be_silly_with_MotUH). I'm sure someone's done a psionic version, but this was one of my earliest tastes of modeling with D&D rules.

[astrallite]

Due to the fact that the D20 weight lift table is logarithmic, you could literally lift the entire universe with a strength value of around 900-ish, so 200,000 for the Hulk would actually be enough to toss probably a good chunk of the multi-verse. I think that's an exaggeration if his powers.

A strength value of around 480-500 would be enough to lift a planet, which would be a good top-end for Hulk.

[ArqArturo]

Here's my challenge:

http://images.wikia.com/fantendo/images/7/76/Deadpool_FB_Artwork_1.jpg

[Tim Proctor]

Really, should make this into a competition series like Iron Chef and then choose different heroes each time. That's were you'd get the best stuff from.

[Xuldarinar]

I do not believe superman would inherently have high modifiers to any of his ability scores. Maybe slight here and there, but nothing major.


Except:

Like how shades (Forgotten Realms - Races of Faerun) have most of their racial traits dependent upon actually being in shadow or darkness, a kryptonian would have a list of racial traits dependent upon direct exposure to the light of a yellow star, that would fade gradually while away from exposure, and so on. I recall a discussion somewhere that theorize superman's powers are inherently psionic, making many of his "super-human" racial traits (Ps).

Traits acquired would include increased physical ability scores, speed, incredible DR/Magic, psi-like abilities (which would include flight), and so on.

His weakness to kryptonite might not be that kryptonite is harmful in of itself, but it's radiation affects his race's inherent psionic abilities (could even effect any number of psionic creatures/characters), the color applying a different effect to applicable beings. In fact, perhaps we could say kryptonite could be a form of psionic crystal that naturally occurred with his planet's destruction, some ways akin to psion-killers. But in the case of at least green kryptonite it inverts benefits and deals damage to psionic creatures/characters (or only kryptonians) within range over time, the effects stronger the closer in one is.

[Asteron]

I do not believe superman would inherently have high modifiers to any of his ability scores. Maybe slight here and there, but nothing major.


Except:

Like how shades (Forgotten Realms - Races of Faerun) have most of their racial traits dependent upon actually being in shadow or darkness, a kryptonian would have a list of racial traits dependent upon direct exposure to the light of a yellow star, that would fade gradually while away from exposure, and so on. I recall a discussion somewhere that theorize superman's powers are inherently psionic, making many of his "super-human" racial traits (Ps).

Traits acquired would include increased physical ability scores, speed, incredible DR/Magic, psi-like abilities (which would include flight), and so on.

His weakness to kryptonite might not be that kryptonite is harmful in of itself, but it's radiation affects his race's inherent psionic abilities (could even effect any number of psionic creatures/characters), the color applying a different effect to applicable beings. In fact, perhaps we could say kryptonite could be a form of psionic crystal that naturally occurred with his planet's destruction, some ways akin to psion-killers. But in the case of at least green kryptonite it inverts benefits and deals damage to psionic creatures/characters (or only kryptonians) within range over time, the effects stronger the closer in one is.

Some of that makes sense, but not the Psionic bits. His abilities are all biological, therefore they would be (Ex) abilities. Nothing he does is inherently psionic.

Honestly though, D&D is poorly equipped to handle comic book superheroes without a lot of homebrew. The Hulk is a prime example of this. He is just a human expert as Bruce Banner, but the Hulk has a lot of HP, lots of DR/-, and stupid strength, dex, and con bonuses. A template would work best. It could give him Frenzied Berserker levels and other stuff, but it would be very much a homebrew template. The neccesary ability score bumps would leave the rules weeping in the corner and nothing could stand against it in melee.

[Psyren]

You bring up a good point. How do you qualify to use Mjolnir?

It says it requires Thor's strength to wield, and his score is 92.

EDIT: Of course, superhero Thor is considerably weaker than D&D deity Thor.

[Blackjackg]

Wolverine is easy. Razorclaw Shifter Barbarian/Weretouched Master (maybe Frenzied Berserker?) Shifter feats include Healing Factor, Razorclaw Elite, Shifter Savagery and Extra Shifter Trait (Wildhunt).

[hamishspence]

It says it requires Thor's strength to wield, and his score is 92.

That's because it's been doubled by his magic belt- his normal strength would be 46.

[Psyren]

That's because it's been doubled by his magic belt- his normal strength would be 46.

I know, I was just saying the 92 is the score you need:

"His most famous possession is his warhammer, Mjolnir, {stats follow.} Mjolnir weighs roughly 2 tons, requiring Thor's doubled strength to wield it."

[hamishspence]

I'd be curious as to if it's an absolute requirement, or if simply having significantly more than Thor's normal strength might be enough.

Otherwise, if you managed to reduce Thor's Strength by 1 point- he might now have to wield it as an improvised weapon rather than a proper one.

[RFLS]

Really, should make this into a competition series like Iron Chef and then choose different heroes each time. That's were you'd get the best stuff from.

On it. Thread will be linked shortly. First hero will be Deadpool.

EDIT: Here's the thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309270)

[Ortesk]

Wolverine is easy. Razorclaw Shifter Barbarian/Weretouched Master (maybe Frenzied Berserker?) Shifter feats include Healing Factor, Razorclaw Elite, Shifter Savagery and Extra Shifter Trait (Wildhunt).

I actually built wolveriene once, Feral Human with a little FoF and barbarian/frenzied with a templated Adamantium graft and a few other things. Logan is strong, but not thor strong. His claim to fame is he has hulks con and fast healing/regen. i pegged him as a cr 25 ish

[Psyren]

I'd be curious as to if it's an absolute requirement, or if simply having significantly more than Thor's normal strength might be enough.

Otherwise, if you managed to reduce Thor's Strength by 1 point- he might now have to wield it as an improvised weapon rather than a proper one.

He's immune to ability damage/drain so that would be quite a feat :smalltongue:

But anyway - since you know how much it weighs (4000 lbs) you could calculate the exact amount of strength required, keeping in mind that he would also need enough strength to wear the rest of his equipment and to throw it.

[hamishspence]

We know a Str 3 person is capable of wielding a normal hammer.

For such a person, 10 lb is a Light load.

A normal warhammer weighs 5 lb.

Using this logic, to wield Mjolnir at all should require enough Str that 8000 lb is a light load and 4000 lb is half that.

In this case, they'd need to be at least Str 50.

[ericp65]

It says it requires Thor's strength to wield, and his score is 92.

EDIT: Of course, superhero Thor is considerably weaker than D&D deity Thor.

Superhero Thor can lift up to 100 tons, according to the Marvel Universe handbook (unless it's been further revised since I read it).

[Immabozo]

Doesn't Mijonir have a whole thing about only the worthy can wield it? And if it was so heavy, shouldn't it have killed Loki when Thor placed it on his chest in the movie "Thor"?

[Zubrowka74]

Some of that makes sense, but not the Psionic bits. His abilities are all biological, therefore they would be (Ex) abilities. Nothing he does is inherently psionic.

Honestly though, D&D is poorly equipped to handle comic book superheroes without a lot of homebrew. The Hulk is a prime example of this. He is just a human expert as Bruce Banner, but the Hulk has a lot of HP, lots of DR/-, and stupid strength, dex, and con bonuses. A template would work best. It could give him Frenzied Berserker levels and other stuff, but it would be very much a homebrew template. The neccesary ability score bumps would leave the rules weeping in the corner and nothing could stand against it in melee.

In the old FASERIP Marvel game, Hulk could lift 75 tons as a base upper limit, more as his anger increased but this kind of needs interpretation from the GM. Jumnping was a separate power, unrelated to how much he could lift. He has abusmal agility, though, as we're not talking about the more recent gray version.

Thor had 75 or 100 in Strength, can't remember. The thing also had between 75 or 100 depending on the version.

[hamishspence]

Lift over his head, or just lift off ground (to stagger around with)?

A Str 60 person can lift just over 200,000 lb off the ground- but they can only lift half that above their head.

[Zubrowka74]

Yeah, wield is something else, I think.

[Psyren]

Superhero Thor can lift up to 100 tons, according to the Marvel Universe handbook (unless it's been further revised since I read it).

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant weaker as in "Doesn't have salient divine abilities and portfolio sense" not "physically weaker." The Marvel Comics Thor can do a lot of things, but I've never heard him being able to "sense any Aesir's cry for aid at the moment it happens or 19 weeks into the past or future" or "create any kind of magic item related to combat or controlling the weather" or True Shapechange.

[Zonugal]

There was a thread on the old WotC boards that discussed this. I recall that Superman was an Expert with a bunch of Knowledge skills.

I don't know if I would agree with this...

[astrallite]

It says it requires Thor's strength to wield, and his score is 92.

EDIT: Of course, superhero Thor is considerably weaker than D&D deity Thor.

92 strength is equivalent to a deadlift ability of about 3,400 tons in D20.

If by Superhero Thor you are referring to Marvel Thor, then that's not the case at all. Thor (with Beta Ray Bill) lifted all of Asgard over their heads, which is a mass in the millions of tons at least. 1 million tons would require a strength of around 145.

[CIDE]

Here's my challenge:

http://images.wikia.com/fantendo/images/7/76/Deadpool_FB_Artwork_1.jpg

Tarrasque in human form? A few clas levels in ninja and/or swordsage and/or assassin?



EDIT: Of course, superhero Thor is considerably weaker than D&D deity Thor.

Oh, how wrong you are. In fact that very debate has come up before on boards designed specifically to discuss vs matches such as that. D&D Thor gets rather laughable stomped by Mavel 616 Thor.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/d-d-thor-vs-marvel-616-classic-thor.228987/





I actually built wolveriene once, Feral Human with a little FoF and barbarian/frenzied with a templated Adamantium graft and a few other things. Logan is strong, but not thor strong. His claim to fame is he has hulks con and fast healing/regen. i pegged him as a cr 25 ish

Why not a razorclaw instead of human? Add in the troll-blooded feat on top of the fast healing in Feral.


Superhero Thor can lift up to 100 tons, according to the Marvel Universe handbook (unless it's been further revised since I read it).

Those strength estimates are incredibly low. Marvel's strength scale technically maxes out at 100+ (note the "+") there. World Breaker Hulk for example was mentioned by a cosmic being to literally have infinite strength. Post-Crisis Superman for example has examples of literally lifting infinite weight as well.


Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant weaker as in "Doesn't have salient divine abilities and portfolio sense" not "physically weaker." The Marvel Comics Thor can do a lot of things, but I've never heard him being able to "sense any Aesir's cry for aid at the moment it happens or 19 weeks into the past or future" or "create any kind of magic item related to combat or controlling the weather" or True Shapechange.

D&D styled magical weapons are going to be hard pressed--even artifacts-- to be in a league that would make them a viable threat against Marvel cosmic-tier entities. Which means the best thing D&D thor could reliably do is make an Aleax of Marvel Thor and Marvel Thor has plenty of experience fighting and beating exact duplicates of himself. Short of D&D thor using everything he has to run away or hide away in some demi-plane he can't really do anything to hurt Marvel Thor.

I will point out that Thor--even classic Thor-- has a very impressive control over cosmic energy in Marvel that in many ways rivals the esoteric nature of the Silver Surfer and enough raw power to critically injure a well fed Galactus.

[Person_Man]

Recreating comic heroes in homebrew is a side hobby of mine. Here's Iron Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276), the Flash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13098583), Ant Man/Giant Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15988658&postcount=32), and Jedi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441).

[Psyren]

Marvel Thor is physically stronger but strength means nothing once you get to salient divine abilities. D&D Thor gets True Shapechange, i.e. Shapechange with no HD Limit, and gains the abilities (including Supernatural ones) of his chosen form.


The deity can take any form, living or unliving, corporal or incorporeal. The deity gains the supernatural abilities of the assumed form.

The deity can use its Alter Size ability simultaneously with this one to become as small as a grain of sand or as large as 1,600 feet in the assumed form’s greatest dimension.

He can shift into Pun-Pun if desired, or Goku, or Golden Age Supes. Or shift into a Zodar, make himself a 10^{arbitrary} CL scroll of Blasphemy, shift into something evil and wipe Marvel Thor from existence. So no, Marvel Thor gets quite royally stomped.

[CIDE]

Marvel Thor is physically stronger but strength means nothing once you get to salient divine abilities. D&D Thor gets True Shapechange, i.e. Shapechange with no HD Limit, and gains the abilities (including Supernatural ones) of his chosen form.



He can shift into Pun-Pun if desired, or Goku, or Golden Age Supes. Or shift into a Zodar, make himself a 10^{arbitrary} CL scroll of Blasphemy, shift into something evil and wipe Marvel Thor from existence. So no, Marvel Thor gets quite royally stomped.

You...didn't actually list anything that could defeat Marvel Thor. Pun-Pun is still limited within the scope of D&D's gameplay mechanics. Goku loses to most higher tiered Marvel or DC characters. Thor is a viable threat to Post Crisis Superman (one of the strongest non-enhanced Superman incarnations since he was nearing is Silver Age levels again) let alone Golden Age (probably the single weakest incarnation).

You're advocating a level of gameplay cheese that just doesn't show itself in the fluff. If that were the case then D&D Thor could simply take another deity by virtue of just changing into a stronger Deity. Or y'know, Pandorym couldn't destroy the D&D multiverse since D&D Thor can just change into Pandorym (as could other deities) and take him down.

Or D&D Thor could become the Lady of Pain and not worry about venturing into Sigil.

There are very clear cut limits to their powers.

[Psyren]

You're advocating a level of gameplay cheese that just doesn't show itself in the fluff. If that were the case then D&D Thor could simply take another deity by virtue of just changing into a stronger Deity.

I never said it wasn't broken - but that's just how it is, as-written. He could turn into Marvel Thor, or Thanos or something. *shrug*

[CIDE]

I never said it wasn't broken - but that's just how it is, as-written. He could turn into Marvel Thor, or Thanos or something. *shrug*

While I agree that in RAW that's what is there. The problem with RAW is that it only takes into consideration things that were statted in the D&D system that do have game mechanics attached to them such as Hit Die. And even in-universe there are some very notable exceptions and limits to that power already that mean that either A: it can't turn into anything or B: it isn't as power as the original when they do transform.

[Immabozo]

Maybe the Hulk has a scale from 1 to 20 on anger, odd number "anger" levels give levels in Frenzied Berserker, even numbered "anger" levels give levels in War Hulk.

[Zubrowka74]

While I agree that in RAW that's what is there. The problem with RAW is that it only takes into consideration things that were statted in the D&D system that do have game mechanics attached to them such as Hit Die. And even in-universe there are some very notable exceptions and limits to that power already that mean that either A: it can't turn into anything or B: it isn't as power as the original when they do transform.

But the Marvel fluff has so vague limits. It's not limited by rules so basically it's whatever the plot needs it to be. Point already mentioned : the abilities fluctuate depending on the writers, sometimes being so vague as having "infinite strength" or "cosmic powers". You cannot compare them, you have to use statblocks from a game system.

[Ortesk]

Why not a razorclaw instead of human? Add in the troll-blooded feat on top of the fast healing in Feral.



Off class levels and templates alone i got him to a CR of 18, i filled the 7 with a "Logan" template which granted a DR and Regen equal to 1/4 Con * 1/2 HD. The hard part was figuring his Con. His dex was 20 (Marvel said super human agility) He had an Int of 12, Wisdom of 20, Cha of 12 and a strength of 22 (Before rage/frenzy took effect) Since i based it off the Canon he had 2 flaws (Self Amnesia and Haunted dreams) and his regen/FH was bypassed by super heated titanium (One must put it in lava for 2 rounds or strike him at the optimal level of heat metal spell) and a special artifact which had part of logans soul. Again his con was the pain in the backside

[Marlowe]

Mjoelnir, according to Marvel comics, has the ability to handle it based on heroic worth, not strength. Which has lead to the the complication that Captain America can wield it, and that an anonymous NYC Firefighter could at least pick it up and hand it back to Thor, but Superman can't budge the thing.

Apparently, most random firefighters are more worthy than Superman.

[Psyren]

Superman interacted with Mjolnir? Canonically? Aren't they different U's?

[Tim Proctor]

Superman did life the hammer, and Wonder Woman (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/08/15/top-five-non-thor-mjolnir-wielders/)... 5 people have at least besides Thor and Odin.

[Karnith]

Superman interacted with Mjolnir? Canonically? Aren't they different U's?
The Marvel and DC universe have had occasional crossovers. In JLA/Avengers, Superman briefly wielded Mjolnir in a fight (depicted here (http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/8/2011/04/superthor.jpg)), but was later unable to lift it again.

[Gnaeus]

There was a thread on the old WotC boards that discussed this. I recall that Superman was an Expert with a bunch of Knowledge skills. However, his race was "Kryptonian" and he had tons of racial abilities. Stuff like Cone of Cold, Scorching Ray, and Fly (self-only) at will, huge DR, huge Dexterity, Constitution, and Strength bonuses, and race-specific reactions to Kryptonite. I don't remember much else because it was ages ago, but anything more specific than that would depends on which version of Supes you're basing your interpretation on.

This. Actually, even that would depend on which version of supes you were using. Original Superman couldn't fly (he leapt tall buildings in a single bound), and his alien powers were unrelated to the sun.



Oh, how wrong you are. In fact that very debate has come up before on boards designed specifically to discuss vs matches such as that. D&D Thor gets rather laughable stomped by Mavel 616 Thor.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/d-d-thor-vs-marvel-616-classic-thor.228987/

And since their analysis began by assuming that they knew more about D&D than Emperor Tippy, their analysis of a fight between the two is entirely worthless. Tippy was the only one who was doing anything like reasonable analysis. That includes Cide.

[CIDE]

But the Marvel fluff has so vague limits. It's not limited by rules so basically it's whatever the plot needs it to be. Point already mentioned : the abilities fluctuate depending on the writers, sometimes being so vague as having "infinite strength" or "cosmic powers". You cannot compare them, you have to use statblocks from a game system.

In the few examples I gave they were never contradicted or have valid in-universe explanations for why those things weren't seen again. Hulk's strength varies obviously. It always has and always will; it's how is powers work. They "fixed" Superman by restarting the entire DC universe and putting him back at square one.

Point is certain universes simply don't work in D&D (or D20 in general) stat blocks.


Mjoelnir, according to Marvel comics, has the ability to handle it based on heroic worth, not strength. Which has lead to the the complication that Captain America can wield it, and that an anonymous NYC Firefighter could at least pick it up and hand it back to Thor, but Superman can't budge the thing.

Apparently, most random firefighters are more worthy than Superman.

Honestly, I'd say a firefighter IS more heroic than Superman. He's got a hell of a lot more to lose in his line of work and no fancy super powers that make most of these "dangerous" missions a moot issue.


Superman interacted with Mjolnir? Canonically? Aren't they different U's?

Different canon status for each universe. DC accepts the cross overs. Marvel however does not. Sure, they both work on them but Marvel only acknowledges them as non-canon and/or alternate universe canon rather than 616 universe. DC's pretty much the opposite.


This. Actually, even that would depend on which version of supes you were using. Original Superman couldn't fly (he leapt tall buildings in a single bound), and his alien powers were unrelated to the sun.



It was the gravity of krypton vs Earth's originally, wasn't it?



And since their analysis began by assuming that they knew more about D&D than Emperor Tippy, their analysis of a fight between the two is entirely worthless. Tippy was the only one who was doing anything like reasonable analysis. That includes Cide.

Just because Tippy knows and understands the mechanics of 3.X and other bits of D20 doesn't place any bearing on that particular Vs matchup since unless otherwise stated it's not the mechanical version of a character being used. Gameplay mechanics misrepresent characters and universes. D&D for example has several examples of epic level wizards that are by no means as broken and cheesy as gameplay mechanics would allow them to be.

Besides, I don't think I see anyone assuming automatically they know more than Tippy there.

[Psyren]

Different canon status for each universe. DC accepts the cross overs. Marvel however does not. Sure, they both work on them but Marvel only acknowledges them as non-canon and/or alternate universe canon rather than 616 universe. DC's pretty much the opposite.

Does it even matter what DC accepts, what with all the reboots? Can we be sure all that even still happened then?



Just because Tippy knows and understands the mechanics of 3.X and other bits of D20 doesn't place any bearing on that particular Vs matchup since unless otherwise stated it's not the mechanical version of a character being used.

So in other words there's no point even trying to compare them at all if you're going to hamstring the D&D combatant simply because you don't like D&D mechanics.

[Gnaeus]

Just because Tippy knows and understands the mechanics of 3.X and other bits of D20 doesn't place any bearing on that particular Vs matchup since unless otherwise stated it's not the mechanical version of a character being used. Gameplay mechanics misrepresent characters and universes.

When you are talking about Marvel Thor Vs. D&D Thor, you are specifically referring to the mechanical version of a character. D&D Thor is an absolutely meaningless concept except as a description of mechanics of a god in D&D. And D&D Thor has powers that can make Marvel Thor weep like a baby coupled with a superhuman intellect to use them, whereas Marvel Thor really does not impress me of being of above average intelligence. He would lose weeks before the fight began.

The only flaw with using Tippy's tactics for D&D Thor, it that Tippy, while smart, is smart within the range of human intelligence (as far as I know) so the tactics employed by D&D Thor, with his superhuman intelligence and millennia of using his powers and with 19 weeks to think about it, will only be BETTER than what Tippy can come up with in a few minutes on a whim. If we statted out this fight, and Marvel Thor somehow got lucky and won, then if we were being true to D&D Thor's intelligence we would go back and restart the fight with D&D Thor preemptively countering whatever Marvel Thor did to beat him, because he had the resources and intellect to do that before the fight started. It isn't a remotely fair battle.

[CIDE]

So in other words there's no point even trying to compare them at all if you're going to hamstring the D&D combatant simply because you don't like D&D mechanics.

Not entirely. But as I pointed out even earlier. only for the discussion of Thor vs Thor and in my more recent post there are very distinct differences between fluff and mechanics. A disparity there that gets in the way. If we played a D&D deity competently then with his in-universe knowledge and inherent powers any one of them could be Pun-Pun in no time. If it were as simple what the mechanics imply then Out of Context entities and problems like the Lady of Pain and Pandorym could be dealt with by even a minor deity by virtue of changing into the LoP/Pandorym. This discussion topic is entirely based on the idea of Thor vs Thor.

Now, to stat Marvel Thor in D&D? He'd be an insane power house with a bunch of homebrew abilities and physical speed that only Pun-Pun is capable of (he is after all capable of FTL movement). He does have a divine essence and should/would qualify for divine ranks and when not purposely handicapping himself has enough control over the cosmos with said powers to qualify for salient abilities.


Does it even matter what DC accepts, what with all the reboots? Can we be sure all that even still happened then?


Eh...yeah. I hate that DC keeps doing that. They need to just stop writing themselves into corners.


When you are talking about Marvel Thor Vs. D&D Thor, you are specifically referring to the mechanical version of a character. D&D Thor is an absolutely meaningless concept except as a description of mechanics of a god in D&D. And D&D Thor has powers that can make Marvel Thor weep like a baby coupled with a superhuman intellect to use them, whereas Marvel Thor really does not impress me of being of above average intelligence. He would lose weeks before the fight began.

The only flaw with using Tippy's tactics for D&D Thor, it that Tippy, while smart, is smart within the range of human intelligence (as far as I know) so the tactics employed by D&D Thor, with his superhuman intelligence and millennia of using his powers and with 19 weeks to think about it, will only be BETTER than what Tippy can come up with in a few minutes on a whim. If we statted out this fight, and Marvel Thor somehow got lucky and won, then if we were being true to D&D Thor's intelligence we would go back and restart the fight with D&D Thor preemptively countering whatever Marvel Thor did to beat him, because he had the resources and intellect to do that before the fight started. It isn't a remotely fair battle.


Except fluff does still matter. Fluff is what drives the D&D multiverse with the mechanics built to suit the fluff. And the fluff already indicates that the D&D deities do not and/or can not work the way that's being suggested here. My previous examples still stand.

[Gnaeus]

Now, to stat Marvel Thor in D&D? He'd be an insane power house with a bunch of homebrew abilities and physical speed that only Pun-Pun is capable of (he is after all capable of FTL movement). He does have a divine essence and should/would qualify for divine ranks and when not purposely handicapping himself has enough control over the cosmos with said powers to qualify for salient abilities.

No. Then he would be D&D thor. Marvel Thor has the abilities of Thor in the Marvel Comics. D&D Thor has the abilities of a god in D&D, which includes divine abilities. Marvel Thor, lacking even the ability to grant spells to his worshipers, has no divine rank.



Except fluff does still matter. Fluff is what drives the D&D multiverse with the mechanics built to suit the fluff. And the fluff already indicates that the D&D deities do not and/or can not work the way that's being suggested here. My previous examples still stand.

1. You are wrong about the fluff. The fluff is that gods are superintelligent and have divine powers which they use. If you do not use 100% of the intelligence of the creature in the statblock, you are not using D&D Thor.

2. Fluff works both ways too, you know. Marvel's fluff is VASTLY variable. Marvel Thor as portrayed in the movies isn't smart enough to eat in a restaurant without breaking things and is not able to decisively beat Iron Man in a fair fight. So if D&D Thor, using your interpretation of D&D fluff, isn't smart enough to predict the fight (which he does automatically) and then prepare, then Marvel Thor isn't smart enough to use "Galaxy destroying power nullifying hammer of the gods" and he uses the powers that he regularly uses in the comics. He uses the same crappy hammer blow or thunderbolt that can't even beat Iron Man and then D&D Thor opens up a can on him.

It is like the proverbial high level fighter vs. Druid Fight as seen elsewhere. If both characters are played to their potential, D&D Thor wins. If Both Characters are played "low op" or in this case stupidly, D&D Thor wins. If you take the best version of Marvel Thor and a stupidly played version of what you imagine D&D Thor to be. Marvel Thor has a chance.

[CIDE]

No. Then he would be D&D thor. Marvel Thor has the abilities of Thor in the Marvel Comics. D&D Thor has the abilities of a god in D&D, which includes divine abilities. Marvel Thor, lacking even the ability to grant spells to his worshipers, has no divine rank.
.

Except we've seen that cosmic powers--even asgardian cosmic powers-- can be passed on to other people in Marvel. While Thor hasn't specifically done so he has all the knowledge to accomplish the task. Sure, not everything is exact but if you don't want to consider him having Divine Rank (since he does specifically have the essence for it) then he instead has a bunch of homebrew things that in many ways are superior.



1. You are wrong about the fluff. The fluff is that gods are superintelligent and have divine powers which they use. If you do not use 100% of the intelligence of the creature in the statblock, you are not using D&D Thor.


Except they haven't had the intelligence in fluff to do the things people think they can do mechanically. As I've already pointed out with the same examples like 6 times now.




2. Fluff works both ways too, you know. Marvel's fluff is VASTLY variable. Marvel Thor as portrayed in the movies isn't smart enough to eat in a restaurant without breaking things and is not able to decisively beat Iron Man in a fair fight. So if D&D Thor, using your interpretation of D&D fluff, isn't smart enough to predict the fight (which he does automatically) and then prepare, then Marvel Thor isn't smart enough to use "Galaxy destroying power nullifying hammer of the gods" and he uses the powers that he regularly uses in the comics. He uses the same crappy hammer blow or thunderbolt that can't even beat Iron Man and then D&D Thor opens up a can on him.


Every example you just called upon is specifically a different version of Thor than I have been using this entire discussion. You're talking about MCU Thor. I'm talking about primary Marvel universe 616 Thor. They are worlds and worlds and worlds apart in virtually every single way except that they are both named "Thor". That said this entire section of your post is full of horrible comparisons that don't match up to the rest of the discussion.

That said I'm still waiting for very specific examples of what D&D Thor is even going to be able to do to Marvel Thor. The Aleax example was one I already brought up. Aside from turning into something else what can D&D Thor do in his stat block that would allow him to touch Marvel Thor?



It is like the proverbial high level fighter vs. Druid Fight as seen elsewhere. If both characters are played to their potential, D&D Thor wins. If Both Characters are played "low op" or in this case stupidly, D&D Thor wins. If you take the best version of Marvel Thor and a stupidly played version of what you imagine D&D Thor to be. Marvel Thor has a chance.

If both characters play to their potential? You are both severely over estimating what a D&D Deity can do while simultaniously under estimating what Marvel Thor can do. Which I should note that Marvel Thor (specifically 616 Thor) takes the same "World of Cardboard" stance Superman does. That is he purposely holds back at all times for two canonical reasons he himself mentioned: Collateral, and to literally make the rest of the Avengers relevant. I am not kidding at all about that last part.

[Gnaeus]

That said I'm still waiting for very specific examples of what D&D Thor is even going to be able to do to Marvel Thor. The Aleax example was one I already brought up. Aside from turning into something else what can D&D Thor do in his stat block that would allow him to touch Marvel Thor?

If both characters play to their potential? You are both severely over estimating what a D&D Deity can do while simultaniously under estimating what Marvel Thor can do.

Again, if you want to cherrypick the version of Marvel Thor, I will select the D&D Thor that exists in Tippyverse. The version that is actually a greater god with superhuman intelligence with all the powers and abilities that go with that.

So can D&D Thor played to the limit of his abilities beat 616 thor? It seems so. Despite a pretty wide background in the avengers comics, movies, and cartoons, I have not read the parts of 616 that you refer to, so I will have to refer to the marvel Wikia, which talks all about this rediculous version.

"Despite his godlike invulnerability, Thor is susceptible to the highest forms of magic. Only high level magical users of the likes of Odin, Zeus, Hades, Seth, etc. can effect him. He is also vulnerable to cosmic beings such as Galactus, the Beyonder, Ego the Living Planet, the Stranger, etc. He can also be physically hurt by the strongest of beings on the level of the Sentry, Thanos, and the Silver Surfer. "

From this, I conclude that D&D Thor owns marvel 616 Thor. Marvel 616 Thor is apparently susceptible to the highest forms of magic, which means Epic Spells. D&D Thor chain gates in a dozen solars with class levels, and calls up about 1000 of his high level followers to Asgard. This takes him less than a day of his 19 weeks. Then he alters the flow of time on his part of the plane, and spends the next hundred years or so creating epic spells of "Kill Marvel Thor" He then goes to where the fight with Marvel Thor is certain to be, because he knows ahead of time, uses epic Kill Marvel Thor spell. In the event that Marvel Thor should get an action, the 15 solars standing around with prepared scrolls of Miracle just undo it. For that matter while "Superhuman Senses: Thor's superhuman sense's allow him to see objects as far out as the edge of the Solar System[93], allow him to track objects traveling faster than light[94], and hear cries from the other side of the planet[95]." they do not appear to give him any unique abilities to penetrate illusions, so he isn't likely to have the faintest clue as to what is going on before Epic Thor Killing Weapon enters his eyesocket, wielded by Superior Invisible Aleax 616 Thor.


Which I should note that Marvel Thor (specifically 616 Thor) takes the same "World of Cardboard" stance Superman does. That is he purposely holds back at all times for two canonical reasons he himself mentioned: Collateral, and to literally make the rest of the Avengers relevant. I am not kidding at all about that last part.

Sure. Until he doesn't. He has always had the ability to travel FTL, except for when he can't. I'll just wait until next month when they retconn it back to no longer be that way, or just forget they ever said that and go back to where he can barely beat up morons like the Wrecking Crew.

[Psyren]

Gnaeus, that was just beautiful... *wipes tears*

[Jack_Simth]

I figure The hulk, seeing as he can normal con score, seeing how easy it is to knock him out with gas, but has a very high NA. I would venture to say arbitrarily high. Strength score, seeing as he can jump the height that jets fly, since they fly like 50,000 ish, in D&D terms, that is a DC 200,000 jump check. So the hulk's strength is about 200,000+, his con is probably only about 25 or 26, dex of about 14 or 15.

What would you stat superman at? The flash? Green Lantern? Captain America? Thor? How does Mjölnir stat out and what stats does Thor himself have? What about Iron Man? What stats do the suit give and what would you rate Tony's stats at? Etc.
Which version? There have been a rather lot of different versions of pretty much any major comic hero.

It also depends on whether or not you want to get their exact abilities, whether or not you're willing to accept homebrew, and things of that nature.

You could, for instance, get something much like the feel of Superman with Psionics - he's an Elan Psion with a Ring of Chameleon Power (or perhaps a Robe of Blending... after all, people friendly with him as Superman generally recognize him as Clark Kent...) and a power point recharge method (however, his Torc of Power Preservation (XPH version, not MIC version), the key to making it work, has the limitation that it only works in the direct light of a yellow sun). Invulnerability? Elan Resilience. Green Kryptonite? Antipsionic Field item with a slight anti-aberration aura (or perhaps a repeating dispel-psionics effect with an anti-aberration aura, depending on the 'quality' of the Kryptonite, which seems to vary). His super-speed travel? Well, that's Teleportation. When he does things in detail at super-speed? Well, that's Temporal Acceleration. Laser eyes? Well, that's Energy Missle. Cold breath? Energy Cone. Hurricane Breath? Well, that's a (chained) Telekenetic Manuever for Bull Rush. And so on.

[CIDE]

Again, if you want to cherrypick the version of Marvel Thor, I will select the D&D Thor that exists in Tippyverse. The version that is actually a greater god with superhuman intelligence with all the powers and abilities that go with that.

See, you already just shot yourself in the foot. Each variation of Thor is in fact a vastly different version of the same character from a variety of different alternate universes with varied intelligence levels, power levels, and personalities. Each one however is Canon. It is also very much natural to pull from the primary Marvel universe for the main version of Thor instead of purposely cherry picking what is the single weakest version of Thor I can think of in Marvel. The difference for you? You cherry picking D&D Thor is non-canon.



So can D&D Thor played to the limit of his abilities beat 616 thor? It seems so. Despite a pretty wide background in the avengers comics, movies, and cartoons, I have not read the parts of 616 that you refer to, so I will have to refer to the marvel Wikia, which talks all about this rediculous version.


While I can't fault you for you lack of knowledge on 616 Thor (There's a lot of **** to sift through there) the Wiki is not the best or even a good reliable source of information for Marvel characters. If nothing else it's incredibly out of date.




From this, I conclude that D&D Thor owns marvel 616 Thor. Marvel 616 Thor is apparently susceptible to the highest forms of magic, which means Epic Spells. D&D Thor chain gates in a dozen solars with class levels, and calls up about 1000 of his high level followers to Asgard. This takes him less than a day of his 19 weeks. Then he alters the flow of time on his part of the plane, and spends the next hundred years or so creating epic spells of "Kill Marvel Thor" He then goes to where the fight with Marvel Thor is certain to be, because he knows ahead of time, uses epic Kill Marvel Thor spell. In the event that Marvel Thor should get an action, the 15 solars standing around with prepared scrolls of Miracle just undo it. For that matter while "Superhuman Senses: Thor's superhuman sense's allow him to see objects as far out as the edge of the Solar System[93], allow him to track objects traveling faster than light[94], and hear cries from the other side of the planet[95]." they do not appear to give him any unique abilities to penetrate illusions, so he isn't likely to have the faintest clue as to what is going on before Epic Thor Killing Weapon enters his eyesocket, wielded by Superior Invisible Aleax 616 Thor.


You are making a lot of assumptions here. First and foremost those characters listed in the wiki article for having magic capable of harming Thor? One of which is known for wiping out entire solar systems by accident. The rest are pretty much his peers. The entire first section are gods. The entire second section (as I will get into) are peers or superiors to gods. The Beyonder is Marvel's equivalent (pre-retcon) to Pandorym in origin and power but not in purpose (he's just a trickster). Galactus and Ego vary WAY too much in-universe and I'm unsure about the stranger. But drawing the comparison between those and "random epic spell number 1039583" is just a bit of a stretch.

Am I denying the spell might work? It can. But you're trying to compare D&D magic to guys that perform the equivlant to epic level spells on a whim.



Sure. Until he doesn't. He has always had the ability to travel FTL, except for when he can't. I'll just wait until next month when they retconn it back to no longer be that way, or just forget they ever said that and go back to where he can barely beat up morons like the Wrecking Crew.

Except he never loses those abilities. They purposely explained those drawbacks in-character with the (horrible) above explanation.

[Zonugal]

In a competition between D&D Thor and Marvel 616 Thor I'd have ot side with CIDE on this.

I think D&D Thor has a greater sense of perception & knowledge pertaining to his domain & threats but for everything else Marvel 616 Thor is simply more powerful.

Which is understandable as Marvel 616 Thor isn't bound to a system of rules. He does what the writer needs him to which in one story might be throwing his hammer twice the speed of light or in another story being able to shatter planets with a swing.

By the way, here is a nice little ranking/power chart for Marvel as down by Matt Fraction. (http://mattfraction.com/image/48807317095)

[Psyren]

Which is understandable as Marvel 616 Thor isn't bound to a system of rules. He does what the writer needs him to which in one story might be throwing his hammer twice the speed of light or in another story being able to shatter planets with a swing.

That's the problem, for all his power the comic version is still limited in rather specific and absurd* ways. D&D Thor - and any other Greater Deity, in fact - laughs at your need to "throw" and "swing" to make things happen.

*Absurd for a deity that is.

[Zonugal]

That's the problem, for all his power the comic version is still limited in rather specific and absurd* ways. D&D Thor - and any other Greater Deity, in fact - laughs at your need to "throw" and "swing" to make things happen.

*Absurd for a deity that is.

But I mean, what measure of relative comparison can we work between them?

Is a planet the equivalent to a plane?

What are the "gods" in Marvel equivalent to in D&D?

[Czin]

The flash should completely and utterly break the game for his uber-high end interpretations.

Want me to get out that Attosecond picture and his scans of "white dwarf" like punches and speed stealing and vibrating through any defense?

[Czin]

That's the problem, for all his power the comic version is still limited in rather specific and absurd* ways. D&D Thor - and any other Greater Deity, in fact - laughs at your need to "throw" and "swing" to make things happen.

*Absurd for a deity that is.

Thor killed a being as powerful as his father and the entirety of the Asgardian pantheon, and said father destroys entire galaxies as a side effect of him going all out, single handedly.

Rather beyond the scope of the power levels displayed by canonical Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms gods.

Actually, very much *absurdly* beyond their power level.

[Psyren]

Rather beyond the scope of the power levels displayed by canonical Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms gods.

"Canonical" is the problem here. None of the D&D gods in a story sense are played to anything near the true potential of their powers as written. D&D Odin has a spear, but if you look at the kind of powers he has access to, you can't help but wonder what possible use he would have for such a quaint instrument.

For Marvel entities to win you require either rewriting/disregarding the rules entirely, or for the D&D deities to behave like idiots or otherwise hamstring themselves.

[Czin]

"Canonical" is the problem here. None of the D&D gods in a story sense are played to anything near the true potential of their powers as written. D&D Odin has a spear, but if you look at the kind of powers he has access to, you can't help but wonder what possible use he would have for such a quaint instrument.

For Marvel entities to win you require either rewriting/disregarding the rules entirely, or for the D&D deities to behave like idiots or otherwise hamstring themselves.
If you want I can show you the Living Tribunal, whose response to entities that can destroy thousands of realities by simply thinking about it is to go "Lolnope" and effortlessly stop it. Or who's response to rules is to say "Hey, ppsst, I changed the rules". And depowers universal scale artifacts that grant omnipotence within the bounds of a universe and it's connected dimensions with a wave of his hand.

He'd squash the Lady of Pain like a bug.

If the One Above all is the Capital G God literally Omnipotent God of Marvel, then the Living Tribunal is Micheal, Gabriel, and Raphael in one.