Gender Inverted Phantom

[Hogwarts9876]

So, I was just watching a production of Phantom of the Opera yesterday, and I suddenly wondered, "How would Christine and the Phantom's relationship be different if Christine was a guy and the Phantom was a girl?"
Would it seem or feel any different to you guys? Discuss.

[Ashtagon]

I don't think the plot could have worked at all.

Christine's attraction to Phantom was on a purely intellectual level. When was the last time a Hollywood star was attracted to his leading lady on that basis?

[Avilan the Grey]

And here I was about to remind you that there were at least one female Phantom. She was the Phantom between 1852–1887...

And then you were talking about the Opera guy. :smallbiggrin:

[Hopeless]

I don't think the plot could have worked at all.

Christine's attraction to Phantom was on a purely intellectual level. When was the last time a Hollywood star was attracted to his leading lady on that basis?

But what if that was inverted too?

The female phantom is someone the guy actually knew and discovering someone is assuming her role makes him investigate until he realises it is her...

Yes I admit you're right I can't see that working unless the guy is the one stalking her rather than the other way round like the original!

[Tiki Snakes]

So, I was just watching a production of Phantom of the Opera yesterday, and I suddenly wondered, "How would Christine and the Phantom's relationship be different if Christine was a guy and the Phantom was a girl?"
Would it seem or feel any different to you guys? Discuss.

It would work just fine, and have the potential to dig into some interesting issues, (with a female musical genius/architect/something???) forced to refuge from the world purely because of a disfigurement.

It would attract epic levels of snark though, I suspect.

I think it would work okay, especially if you literally changed as little else as possible and allowed the thing to stand on it's own feet. Question is, do you gender-switch Raoul, or do you leave the character unchanged and just see how it changes the situation by doing so?

[Tengu_temp]

I suspect the fandom would either realize what a creepy, messed-up stalked the Phantom is, or go "aww, s/he's just misunderstood" even harder.

[Tiki Snakes]

I always got the impression that both of those points are supposed to be basically true. Not that I'm an expert.

[MLai]

It would work just fine, and have the potential to dig into some interesting issues, (with a female musical genius/architect/something???) forced to refuge from the world purely because of a disfigurement.
I second this.

It's so rare to find an "ugly" female character in visual medium who is intensely attractive by the power of her personality alone, and who never becomes prettied up (The Princess Diaries) as the testament of her "character development."

The Phantom remains a "Beast" through to the story's end, yet women audiences will gladly throw their panties at him. Hell I would throw my panties at him if I had any. Can a story pull that off with a female Phantom, and elicit the same reaction from male audiences? As in "I don't care if half her face is burnt, I want to take this woman home!!"

[Tiki Snakes]

Or more simply, it would give some older female stars a chance to chew the scenery up in a huge, over the top theatrical role, which would be awesome to watch in its own right.

[Tengu_temp]

I always got the impression that both of those points are supposed to be basically true. Not that I'm an expert.

The Phantom certainly has a tragic backstory, yes. But he also creepily stalks a woman who has no romantic interest in him, tries to pressure her into marriage (read: rape), and commits several murders. His fandom tends to glaze over all this and sigh what a misunderstood soul he is. They also tend to forget that he's supposed to be ugly and weird-looking, even without the burns he suffered.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, I don't know so much about the last part there, I think that tends to vary between productions and between versions, (Book, Play, Film, et cetera) and equating forcing someone into marriage to rape is probably going a little bit far (Especially as he doesn't actually go through with it in the end, much less take it further), I pretty much agree with what you're saying.

The mix of dark, amoral and creepy with his woobyish qualities are what makes the character interesting, so it seems weird to ignore any one part of that.

[Water_Bear]

It would mess with the songs a bit; I'm guessing it's pretty hard to find female singers who can go that low or vice versa. And the plot would need a few changes, at the least because Chris couldn't be a chorus girl.

Other than that, the biggest change would be in how the fans react. My guess is that everyone would hate Chris; that kind of a fearful indecisive character is just boring for a woman but an active irritant when it's a man. And the "love triangle" aspect would only make that worse; people who liked Raoula would think his actions constituted cheating and hate him for it, while people who liked Fem!Phantom would be annoyed that he keeps resisting her and going back to Raoula.

Personally I wouldn't care as long as the music was good, I never cared about the plot anyway.

[MLai]

The Phantom is a literary character. It is perfectly normal for fans of literature to be excited by and attracted to dark, amoral, and creepy characters.

If you can't stop imposing your RW sociopolitical value judgements on literary characters, if it prevents you from escaping into and enjoying fantasies with taboo undercurrents, then you need to chill. Your imagination is suffocating under the weight of your crusading morality.

[Tengu_temp]

The Phantom is a literary character. It is perfectly normal for fans of literature to be excited by and attracted to dark, amoral, and creepy characters.

If you can't stop imposing your RW sociopolitical value judgements on literary characters, if it prevents you from escaping into and enjoying fantasies with taboo undercurrents, then you need to chill. Your imagination is suffocating under the weight of your crusading morality.

Defensive much?

There's a difference between liking a character as a character and liking it as a person. Finding the Phantom a fascinating, tragic, but ultimately villainous figure is perfectly fine. Squeeing over him as the perfect husbando is delusional.

[Cero Oscura]

The Phantom is a literary character. It is perfectly normal for fans of literature to be excited by and attracted to dark, amoral, and creepy characters.

If you can't stop imposing your RW sociopolitical value judgements on literary characters, if it prevents you from escaping into and enjoying fantasies with taboo undercurrents, then you need to chill. Your imagination is suffocating under the weight of your crusading morality.

Wow you really came out swinging. That's a lot of vitriol in one paragraph. Perhaps we could have this discussion with less...buzzwords?

Anyway, I think that fantasies are not universal. Just because my fantasy isn't the same as yours, it doesn't mean I'm being 'suffocated'. Unless I misinterpret, your post seems to imply that I've been brainwashed by the Right Wing if I think murders are un-sexy. I bet the LW would be equally against murderers.

[MLai]

@ Tengu:

I'm defensive for literature, not for the Phantom as a husband fantasy. Your posts didn't say to me that you found the Phantom a fascinating tragic figure. Your post said things like "creepy messed-up stalker," "rape (i.e. there's a buzzword for you)," and dismissive opinions about "the fandom."

That tone says to me that you feel the character is morally wrong, therefore unworthy of evoking positive emotions in the reader, full stop. With that kind of gauge, many classic works of literature would suddenly become unworthy of evoking positive emotions. Those implications make me very defensive, yeah.

@ Cero:

I'm not sure which parts of my posts implied right vs left wing.

[Mewtarthio]

I don't think the plot could have worked at all.

Christine's attraction to Phantom was on a purely intellectual level. When was the last time a Hollywood star was attracted to his leading lady on that basis?

*pictures a woman singing "Music of the Night"*

...Uh, I'd say female Phantom could be plenty sexy, regardless of physical appearance.


@ Tengu:

I'm defensive for literature, not for the Phantom as a husband fantasy. Your posts didn't say to me that you found the Phantom a fascinating tragic figure. Your post said things like "creepy messed-up stalker," "rape (i.e. there's a buzzword for you)," and dismissive opinions about "the fandom."

That tone says to me that you feel the character is morally wrong, therefore unworthy of evoking positive emotions in the reader, full stop. With that kind of gauge, many classic works of literature would suddenly become unworthy of evoking positive emotions. Those implications make me very defensive, yeah.

Except the fandom does have a serious problem with elevating the Phantom from "tragic figure" to "omg so cute I wanna take him home!". Ever see Andrew Lloyd Webber's sequel? Yep, even Webber is on the "Cristine x Phantom OTP!" train.

[Cero Oscura]

@ Cero:

I'm not sure which parts of my posts implied right vs left wing.

I assumed RW meant right wing. Since you added that modifier to your definition of moral judgements, it naturally follows that you believe the opposite (LW) to hold a different standard of beliefs. I stated that their beliefs about murder are probably the same.

You also previously stated that you would like to "throw your panties" at the Phantom. This sounds like a husband fantasy to me, hence why you seemed defensive about husband fantasies.

Anyway, back to discussion! It is true that characters with shady morals can evoke positive emotions. However, in my experience it is usually due to the character possessing redeeming qualities. According to the original novel, The Phantom is an extortionist, a kidnapper, and a murderer. At the end he sort of releases some captives from a torture chamber, only to die later from a "broken heart".

In my eye, this paints him as pretty corrupt, uncaring of human life, and utterly selfish. He sees the light at the end, but then goes on to die a selfish death, obsessed only with what he cannot have. Can you describe to me what traits the Phantom possesses in order to evoke these positive emotions?

[Themrys]

In my eye, this paints him as pretty corrupt, uncaring of human life, and utterly selfish. He sees the light at the end, but then goes on to die a selfish death, obsessed only with what he cannot have. Can you describe to me what traits the Phantom possesses in order to evoke these positive emotions?

It's expectations. You see, everyone expects the heroes to be good. The villain, on the other hand, is expected to be evil and therefore can evoke extreme positive emotions with a single kind act. It's somewhat like Stockholm Syndrome.

Besides; do you really think people should be morally judged on their own feelings?
It is perfectly possible to be aware that a feeling is selfish and wrong, and still feel that way.
I wouldn't judge the Phantom so harshly for his cause of death. There are enough real crimes to hold against him.


I do think gender inversion would change the way the Phantom is perceived. Women are considered as rather non-threatening, so it would certainly change some things.
While mainstream media don't have many plotlines where men fall in love with the mind of women, it does work, has actually worked in stories written by me - for a female audience, which may have something to do with it - and would surely work for the Phantom of the Opera Fandom, as it seems to largely consist of women.

[KillianHawkeye]

I assumed RW meant right wing.

I read it as "real world."



This is a good lesson on the need to define your acronyms! If I used the acronym HVAC, an electrician would take it to mean High Voltage Alternating Current, while a construction worker would take it to mean Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab48/WisemanHype/the_more_you_know2.jpg

[Goosefeather]

I assumed RW meant right wing. Since you added that modifier to your definition of moral judgements, it naturally follows that you believe the opposite (LW) to hold a different standard of beliefs. I stated that their beliefs about murder are probably the same.

'RW' stands for 'real-world' in this context. Politics have nothing to do with it.

Edit: ninja'd!

[SuperPanda]

For me, I'd like to believe that if you changed Raoul, Christine, and Phantom to gender flipped roles then nothing would change about the story.

Christine as Christian, the young up-and-comming Tennor back-up actor turned star. Not much changes in that story line. Instead of the daddy issues Christine had Christian will have Mommy-issues (since the issues are exploited by Phantom).

Erica the Phantom instead of Eric. Malformed and futher scared, conditioned to believe that her monstrous appearance makes her sub-human? Heck right there you have more sympathy for the character because it is far more likely to be true (especially keeping the historic setting). Anger issues? Who doesn't get angry (though I'd be terribly afraid the writers tried to pan it off as hormonal which doesn't make much sense at all). Again no problems.

Raoul is the point where it becomes complicated for me (And not just because I don't know how to easily make the name feminine). Historically women simply didn't have the same role in courtship as Men did and Raoul's interactions would change to reflect that. If the time of the story is changed to the modern day, well then the gender role works fine but its more "Phantom of the Pop" than phantom of the opera (maybe I should work on that script... a female Phantom figure (Producer) trying to ensnare the latest backstreet boy with his own Oedipus complex could make a funny and interesting commentary on its own.

----------------

Actually, in analyzing it just now, I think Phantom's age would be a much bigger problem then phantom being ugly in how people responded. Part of the "creepy" side of Christine and Phantom is that he fills a father role which is now lacking in her life. If you reverse that alot of people become less comfortable.

For me I found the Phantom to be more sympathetic when I was in High-school and convinced that if I didn't look great (and have piles of money) no woman would be interested in me regardless of who I was. (This attitude was not helped by my mom who very rationally understood that it was pointless to compliment me on looks since Mom's are suppose to do that and instead only ever told me that I was "vaguely symmetrical." We laugh about this now.)

The "you poor man you" feelings for phantom were stronger there (though I still always wanted Raoul to win, he was the good guy afterall). Life and perspective leaves a much darker read on Phantom's character. The subtext for me is less "if people had only been nicer to him." and more "the darkness is in everyone of us, we make our own demons." By the time of the play, Phantom is "past the point of no return." He is un-redeemable. The Tragedy is that he is un-redeemable because he is fighting to deny his own darkness with the delusion that Christine's love would change him.

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Take the story of phantom from a brand new direction (dramatization, set in a new place and time, gender switch, you name it) and slap a different name on it and it shines a spotlight on all of the subtext we typically gloss over in-order to enjoy the spectacle and songs associated with Phantom.

Do a production of Phantom of the Opera with a women cast as Phantom and Raoul, and a man as Christine, and names changed, and I'd like to think most people wouldn't even notice (Except to complain that Christine's voice was all wrong for the part since he couldn't hit those high notes).

[Rockphed]

For me, I'd like to believe that if you changed Raoul, Christine, and Phantom to gender flipped roles then nothing would change about the story.

Christine as Christian, the young up-and-comming Tennor back-up actor turned star. Not much changes in that story line. Instead of the daddy issues Christine had Christian will have Mommy-issues (since the issues are exploited by Phantom).

Erica the Phantom instead of Eric. Malformed and futher scared, conditioned to believe that her monstrous appearance makes her sub-human? Heck right there you have more sympathy for the character because it is far more likely to be true (especially keeping the historic setting). Anger issues? Who doesn't get angry (though I'd be terribly afraid the writers tried to pan it off as hormonal which doesn't make much sense at all). Again no problems.

Raoul is the point where it becomes complicated for me (And not just because I don't know how to easily make the name feminine). Historically women simply didn't have the same role in courtship as Men did and Raoul's interactions would change to reflect that. If the time of the story is changed to the modern day, well then the gender role works fine but its more "Phantom of the Pop" than phantom of the opera (maybe I should work on that script... a female Phantom figure (Producer) trying to ensnare the latest backstreet boy with his own Oedipus complex could make a funny and interesting commentary on its own.

This intrigues me. I wish to see more of this story unfold.


Do a production of Phantom of the Opera with a women cast as Phantom and Raoul, and a man as Christine, and names changed, and I'd like to think most people wouldn't even notice (Except to complain that Christine's voice was all wrong for the part since he couldn't hit those high notes).

Octave shifting all the female parts down an octave and the male parts up an octave(or three, my understanding of where male and female vocal ranges lie is sketchy, at best) is pretty easy.

[SuperPanda]

Re: Octave shifting.

Oh, I'm fully aware that linguistically speaking there is not much significant difference between men and women's vocal ranges. That was more a comment on my personal experience with musicals and fans there-of.

My older sister in real life (IRL :smalltongue:) has an amazing ear and gets so wrapped up on the musical level of things that she has trouble getting past interpretations of musicals that get the music "wrong."

Somewhat off topic example
The recent Les Miserables movie: We both watched it together and she was angry/annoyed with all of the actors because they didn't have operetic voices and couldn't remain on pitch throughout the film when the stage actors we'd seen could do that durring live performances. She disliked everyone's performance -musically- and didn't really evaluate the show beyond that.

Myself I was far too busy being angry with the camera, acting, pointless additions/revisions. I rather liked Hathaway's performance (Apparently because my ear isn't good enough to hear how wrong she was) though I did have a hard time getting used to Jackman's (Bless him, he tried so hard that you wanted to like it. He just hit the wrong harmonic for me and so rather beautiful songs became grating... but I also recognize that's a preference thing) and I'll admit to getting uppity over Crowes performance musically (Octave switching for no aparent reason bugs me when its removing one of the few roles in my vocal range from a play I like).

If a production was billed as "Phantom of the Opera" and didn't advertise the gender-swapped roles (treated it as the non-issue I feel it should be), then I think you'll get people complaining about changing the music for the actor(s).

If it is billed as Phantom of the Gender-Swap, then you've foregrounded the gender identity issues and people will become focused on those instead. (I picked Christine's high-notes as I know many women who can't hit them. If this was Les Miserables with a female Javert, or Russel Crowe as Javert, I'd have used the low notes).



I'll get back to Phantom of the Pop after my latest MA paper is done.

[thubby]

Octave shifting all the female parts down an octave and the male parts up an octave(or three, my understanding of where male and female vocal ranges lie is sketchy, at best) is pretty easy.
it's not that simple. you can't just turn music upside down like that. the transitions from low to hi or high to low pitch fundamental change the mood of a piece.

music aside. a female stalker isn't as threatening, nor a male victim as relate-able in our society. getting the same reactions from the audience would probably take more doing.

[KillianHawkeye]

in real life (IRL :smalltongue:)

See? That's how it's done! :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[PlusSixPelican]

Considering some versions of the character make the disfigurement minor or a delusion, one could, if they were afraid of the artistic risk of a woman with a scarred face, make it out as more of a body dysmorphic issue (perceived or real) instead of a facial thing. Keep the mask, though. Related, why do we need to gender-flip the REST of the cast?

And yeah, the Phantom is kind of a creepy stalker butt. Granted, there's an audience for that. How else do you think Twilight sells?

[Hopeless]

Considering some versions of the character make the disfigurement minor or a delusion, one could, if they were afraid of the artistic risk of a woman with a scarred face, make it out as more of a body dysmorphic issue (perceived or real) instead of a facial thing. Keep the mask, though. Related, why do we need to gender-flip the REST of the cast?

And yeah, the Phantom is kind of a creepy stalker butt. Granted, there's an audience for that. How else do you think Twilight sells?

I don't buy Twilight... at all.

So if the woman has been disfigured but what if the stalking is assumed because her former "love" has a new girlfriend and as far as the audience are concerned she's bitterly jealous of his new love but as the story progresses it becomes clear she's trying to protect this new love of the man responsible for her disfigurement rightly believing if she doesn't do anything she'll suffer the same fate?

[Water_Bear]

So if the woman has been disfigured but what if the stalking is assumed because her former "love" has a new girlfriend and as far as the audience are concerned she's bitterly jealous of his new love but as the story progresses it becomes clear she's trying to protect this new love of the man responsible for her disfigurement rightly believing if she doesn't do anything she'll suffer the same fate?

Then it's not Phantom of the Opera.

[BWR]

And here I was about to remind you that there were at least one female Phantom. She was the Phantom between 1852–1887...

And then you were talking about the Opera guy. :smallbiggrin:

Only us Scandinavians are familiar with that Phantom, it seems.
And there was also the story of that one girl who thought she was the rightful heir, but was a total ditz.

[TheThan]

Aww, I was hoping this thread would be about The Ghost who Walks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY7R0lHSw3U).

[Dhavaer]

Aww, I was hoping this thread would be about The Ghost who Walks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY7R0lHSw3U).

That's what I was thinking too.

[Avilan the Grey]

That's what I was thinking too.

That was what my post was all about. :smalltongue:
As I said we already had one gender inverted Phantom, she was the Phantom between 1852–1887. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Hopeless]

Easy to resolve!:smallsmile

The Phantom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15343336#post15343336)

[Hattish Thing]

Hmmmm. Wouldn't... Hm. Raula would be... Well, it all could work, yeah. But... and not to be sexist, a man hitting those extremely high, buttery notes, is veeery impressive. Which id part of why I like it, the notes are very difficult for a man, but when done right, it turns straight men gay. Even I was drooling. :smallamused::smalltongue: I couldn't... see that happening with a female Phantom.

[Rockphed]

it's not that simple. you can't just turn music upside down like that. the transitions from low to hi or high to low pitch fundamental change the mood of a piece.

You're right. It would probably need to be an octave and a fifth or some such nonsense. However, dragging a piece of music from one range into another is, ultimately, a simple math problem.

Now, if you mean that change in pitch between a pair of actors being totally ruined by the gender swap, then I can see how it could change the tone of the play. But swapping the genders of the actors already does that (as evidenced by this discussion). Putting the songs in the natural ranges of the actors merely prevents the piece from becoming surreal.

Wait, Phantom of the Opera. Yeah, surreal might be a good thing.

[Aolbain]

And here I was about to remind you that there were at least one female Phantom. She was the Phantom between 1852–1887...

And then you were talking about the Opera guy. :smallbiggrin:

Nice! I thought I was the only one who thought of that: :smallsmile: