Pimp my Jedi - Armored Edition

[Xaragos]

With all of the talk about making armored characters in the main SAGA thread, I wanted to give the playground a build I have been working on to explore options. I understand the discussion back and forth about heavy armor, medium armor, etc....but the point of this is to make a high defense, multirole Jedi/Jensaarai Defender.

Here is the statblock through level 8:

Armored Jedi CL 8

Medium Human soldier 3/Jedi 4/Imperial Knight 1
Init +10; Senses Perception +13
Languages Basic, Mando'a

Defenses Ref 27 (flat-footed 26)*Attuned Armor*, Fort 26, Will 28; Block, Deflect
hp 81; second wind +20/40; Threshold 26

Speed 6 squares, fly 4 squares
Melee lightsaber +12 (2d8+9) or
Melee lightsaber +12 (2d8+12) with both hands or
Melee lightsaber +10 (3d8+12) with Rapid Strike
Ranged blaster pistol +9 (3d6+4)
Base Atk +8; Grp +11
Atk Options Rapid Strike
Special Actions Attune Armor
Force Powers Known (Use The Force +14) battle strike, enlighten, farseeing, Force whirlwind, mind trick, move object, negate energy, rebuke, surge, Shien deflection

Abilities Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 20
Special Qualities build lightsaber
Talents Armor Mastery, Attune Armor, Block, Deflect, Juggernaut
Feats Armor Proficiency (heavy, light, medium), Force Sensitivity, Force Training (2), Grand Army of the Republic Training, Rapid Strike, Weapon Focus (lightsabers), Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers, pistols, rifles, simple weapons)
Primary Skills Acrobatics +10, Initiative +10, Perception +13, Pilot +10, Use the Force +19
Secondary Skills Climb +7, Deception +9, Endurance +6, Gather Information +9, Jump +7, Knowledge (bureaucracy) +5, Knowledge (galactic lore) +5, Knowledge (life sciences) +5, Knowledge (physical sciences) +5, Knowledge (social sciences) +5, Knowledge (tactics) +5, Knowledge (technology) +5, Mechanics +5, Persuasion +9, Ride +5, Stealth +5, Survival +8, Swim +7, Treat Injury +8, Use Computer +5
Possessions blaster pistol, lightsaber, Neo-Crusader assault armor (+10 armor + 1 Attuned, +4 equipment, +1 Dex) with armorplast, internal generator, powered exoskeleton and shield generator, sr 10

How I did it:

1. Soldier- F: Force Sensitivity, F: Force Training; Skills: UTF, Perc, Init, Pilot; T: Armored Defense (At level 8 retrain into Juggernaut)
2. Jedi- CCF: Lightsaber Prof; T: Deflect
3. Soldier- Weapon Focus: Lightsaber, Force training
4. Soldier- Stat- +1 Int, +1 Cha; Skill: Acro; Lang Mando'a; T: Jens Attune Armor
5. Jedi- CF: Skill Focus: UTF
6. Jedi- F: Grand Army of the Republic; T: Block
7. Jedi- CF: Rapid Strike
8. Imperial Knight- Stat +1 Wis, +1 Cha; T: Armor Mastery

Force Powers:
1. battle strike, enlighten, farseeing, Force whirlwind
3. mind trick, move object, negate energy, rebuke
8. surge, Shien deflection

Feel free to go either dark side or light side or something completely different from here on out. If you think it is better to get rid of the heavy armor line, provide an alternative. I think I have him pretty solid with defense, some varied force powers, but perhaps lacking in offense. PIMP MY JEDI! :)

Edit: Good catch on Attune Armor and UTF! Corrected.

[Waar]

With all of the talk about making armored characters in the main SAGA thread, I wanted to give the playground a build I have been working on to explore options. I understand the discussion back and forth about heavy armor, medium armor, etc....but the point of this is to make a high defense, multirole Jedi/Jensaarai Defender.

Here is the statblock through level 8:

Armored Jedi CL 8

Medium Human soldier 3/Jedi 4/Imperial Knight 1
Init +10; Senses Perception +13
Languages Basic, Mando'a

Defenses Ref 26 (flat-footed 25), Fort 26, Will 28; Block, Deflect
hp 81; second wind +20/40; Threshold 26

Speed 6 squares, fly 4 squares
Melee lightsaber +12 (2d8+9) or
Melee lightsaber +12 (2d8+12) with both hands or
Melee lightsaber +10 (3d8+12) with Rapid Strike
Ranged blaster pistol +9 (3d6+4)
Base Atk +8; Grp +11
Atk Options Rapid Strike
Special Actions Attune Armor
Force Powers Known (Use The Force +14) battle strike (may take 10 even when distracted or threatened), enlighten, farseeing, Force whirlwind, mind trick, move object, negate energy, rebuke, surge, Shien deflection

Abilities Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 20
Special Qualities build lightsaber
Talents Armor Mastery, Attune Armor, Block, Deflect, Juggernaut
Feats Armor Proficiency (heavy, light, medium), Force Sensitivity, Force Training (2), Grand Army of the Republic Training, Rapid Strike, Weapon Focus (lightsabers), Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers, pistols, rifles, simple weapons)
Primary Skills Acrobatics +10, Initiative +10, Perception +13, Pilot +10, Use the Force +14
Secondary Skills Climb +7, Deception +9, Endurance +6, Gather Information +9, Jump +7, Knowledge (bureaucracy) +5, Knowledge (galactic lore) +5, Knowledge (life sciences) +5, Knowledge (physical sciences) +5, Knowledge (social sciences) +5, Knowledge (tactics) +5, Knowledge (technology) +5, Mechanics +5, Persuasion +9, Ride +5, Stealth +5, Survival +8, Swim +7, Treat Injury +8, Use Computer +5
Possessions blaster pistol, lightsaber, Neo-Crusader assault armor (+10 armor, +4 equipment) with armorplast, internal generator, powered exoskeleton and shield generator, sr 10

How I did it:

1. Soldier- F: Force Sensitivity, F: Force Training; Skills: UTF, Perc, Init, Pilot; T: Armored Defense (At level 8 retrain into Juggernaut)
2. Jedi- CCF: Lightsaber Prof; T: Deflect
3. Soldier- Weapon Focus: Lightsaber, Force training
4. Soldier- Stat- +1 Int, +1 Cha; Skill: Acro; Lang Mando'a; T: Jens Attune Armor
5. Jedi- CF: Skill Focus: UTF
6. Jedi- F: Grand Army of the Republic; T: Block
7. Jedi- CF: Rapid Strike
8. Imperial Knight- Stat +1 Wis, +1 Cha; T: Armor Mastery

Force Powers:
1. battle strike, enlighten, farseeing, Force whirlwind
3. mind trick, move object, negate energy, rebuke
8. surge, Shien deflection

Feel free to go either dark side or light side or something completely different from here on out. If you think it is better to get rid of the heavy armor line, provide an alternative. I think I have him pretty solid with defense, some varied force powers, but perhaps lacking in offense. PIMP MY JEDI! :)

1 You are running around in 4000 year old armor (its stats were printed before they finnished the armor upgrading rules)that should (but didn't) have recived errata, the upgrade slots on the neo-crusader are way to many (2 would have been apropriate not 5 or 6)
2 This bulid will only work if you are allowed to retrain talents (and not everybody are) so be carefull about claiming it is 100% legit or recomending it to others.
3 very nice,powerfull build but i would personally consider the GAR training and the second armor mastery (yes there are 2 talents called that) cheap (almost but not quite ban worthy in campagin i run)
4 Personally I find GAR training very silly :smalltongue:
5 consider replacing negate energy with intercept (intercept can arguably negate a deathstar-planetbuster-beam-thing as well as turbolasers) :smallbiggrin:
Now you migth be able to replace rapid strike with Force training via weapon focus and GAR training if GAR training is a bonus feat for Soldier (probably not) but thats about it. All i can recomend to "pimp" your jedi is to swap one forcepower(and putting superior Tech on your saber and armor) well done :smallsmile:

Edit: I think you forgot to attune your armor, doing so would give you a ref of 27 (flat-footed 26).

[Vertharrad]

Your Use the Force should be +19(5 trained + 5 skill focus + 4 1/2 level + 5 cha mod).

[Xaragos]

I think I have all the corrections in there. So what are the recommendations for more offensive power?

[Waar]

How can you take 10 on battle strike? (you don't have that force technique)
Gaining more offensive Power is (unless you want to do some major changes) mainly thru force Powers.
If you could take force training one more time (now or at level 9) you could have a look at Hatred/Force light,another battle strike, assured strike,intercept, force shield or (force?) cloak. if you expect force users another rebuke may be in order.
Hope it helps :smallsmile:

edit:force shield and intercept are deffensive powers while cloak is, well portable total concealment :smallwink: the rest are offensive.

[Alejandro]

I'm glad to see you have Force Training 2x. I've found over time that most characters never need to take it more than twice. Other than truly epic ones, encounters usually don't last long enough for a PC to get through the 10 or so powers they'll end up having (with a good Wisdom and two training feats.)

[Waar]

I'm glad to see you have Force Training 2x. I've found over time that most characters never need to take it more than twice. Other than truly epic ones, encounters usually don't last long enough for a PC to get through the 10 or so powers they'll end up having (with a good Wisdom and two training feats.)

You can use 2 battle strikes (the damage bonus stack) in a single round, are you suggesting that he/she won't spend one round within 6 squares of an opponent during most combats :smallconfused:
Additionally most of this PCs force Powers are utility (2) or free/reactions to activate (5). I can certanly see this build having the use of more know force powers :smallsmile:.

[Alejandro]

You can use 2 battle strikes (the damage bonus stack) in a single round, are you suggesting that he/she won't spend one round within 6 squares of an opponent during most combats :smallconfused:
Additionally most of this PCs force Powers are utility (2) or free/reactions to activate (5). I can certanly see this build having the use of more know force powers :smallsmile:.

I GM for a character who is a dedicated 'Force mage' with a very high Wisdom. My experience has been that, when the other party members are present and contributing (in other words, a normal encounter) the Force mage has only ever once actually run out of Force powers. Our encounters tend to be 5 to 6 rounds long.

[Waar]

I GM for a character who is a dedicated 'Force mage' with a very high Wisdom. My experience has been that, when the other party members are present and contributing (in other words, a normal encounter) the Force mage has only ever once actually run out of Force powers. Our encounters tend to be 5 to 6 rounds long.

I have as of yet found our encounters to normally be shorter than that (there have been mostly short range combat recently, so that might be a reason). Suppose that the PCs is in melee combat (as in charging distance)for about 4 or 5 rounds in a fight. now this PC has 2 offence powers (as in standard action) and one battle strike which means just basic attacks after the first three rounds, why would the option of an extra offence power or battle strike not help most of the time :smallconfused::smalltongue:

And yes I do know that force whirlwind can be maintained as a move action which helps somewhat :smallsmile:.

[Alejandro]

Of course it would help. I'm not arguing that. I have just found through experience that a PC is unlikely to be able to actually fire off more than 10 or so Force powers in an encounter. Less, depending on what's actually applicable to the specific encounter. 10 is easily collected with two Force Trainings and a good Wisdom. But, if you want more, certainly take them.

[Xaragos]

You can use 2 battle strikes (the damage bonus stack) in a single round, are you suggesting that he/she won't spend one round within 6 squares of an opponent during most combats :smallconfused:
Additionally most of this PCs force Powers are utility (2) or free/reactions to activate (5). I can certanly see this build having the use of more know force powers :smallsmile:.

How can you use two battle strikes in one round? Do you mean for double attacks or dual weapon?

Also I think the take 10 nonsense for battle strike is an error in the SAGAforge spreadsheet I use to help keep track of my characters. Will fix that in the original post :)

Good suggestions on force powers. What do you all think about lightsaber form powers and their respective talents? Any groupings that I should pursue for more offensive power?

[Waar]

How can you use two battle strikes in one round? Do you mean for double attacks or dual weapon?

Also I think the take 10 nonsense for battle strike is an error in the SAGAforge spreadsheet I use to help keep track of my characters. Will fix that in the original post :)

Good suggestions on force powers. What do you all think about lightsaber form powers and their respective talents? Any groupings that I should pursue for more offensive power?

Battle strike takes a swift action, an attack a standard action, the damage bonus (but not the to hit bonus) from all battle strikes are applied to your next attack (before the end of your next turn,i think). the rest is probably clear :smallwink::smallcool:

If not
you downgrade your move action to a swift action, activate 2 battle strikes then attack (or charge) with you standard action :smallsmile:

for lightsaber Powers, try to identify whether increased damage or accuracy is most beneficial to you (depends on opponents). Assured strike hepls with accuracy, but is best when you have about 50% chance to hit (due to rerolls), works great with 2 battle strikes for great accuracy and damage, the 2 "dark side" lightsaber form powers (tempered aggresion and vornskr ferocity, i think) deal good damage (one gives you a crit if you beat your targets Ref well enough, the other bonus damage dice) and works best against low Ref opponents.

The talents for these Powers are helpfull but not mandatory, take them only if you like the actual talent (or love the "dark side" powers, but not the fact that they are dark side)

[Alejandro]

The Battle Strike trick is legal in terms of rules as written, but is not rules 'as intended'. It's even worse when someone could have Battle Strike 5 times, using all three swift actions on their first round to activate 3 Battle Strikes, then on their second round, taking two swift actions to activate 2 more Battle Strikes, then finally a standard action to attack or charge.

The attack roll bonuses won't stack, but the bonus damage dice technically will. A GM could allow it in their game if they wanted to, but I certainly wouldn't. Besides, it's a terrible strategy, there's so many ways to either foil the final attack roll or simply get out of the Jedi's reach that it's not that useful, especially against enemies who are expecting the trick from past encounters. Plus there's the whole having half to a third of your Force powers sunk in Battle Strike.

Edit: It doesn't work with the Dark Side version, Dark Rage, because it says '+2 rage bonus on melee attack rolls and damage rolls' thus keeping the like bonuses from stacking if multiple Dark Rages were used in a row. Which is good, because somebody doing the Battle Strike cheese would do the same thing here, using the power multiple times and stacking up enormous to hit and damage bonuses, and potentially paying a Force point to make them last for the whole encounter. The authors were clearly more careful writing Dark Rage than Battle Strike.

[Waar]

The Battle Strike trick is legal in terms of rules as written, but is not rules 'as intended'. It's even worse when someone could have Battle Strike 5 times, using all three swift actions on their first round to activate 3 Battle Strikes, then on their second round, taking two swift actions to activate 2 more Battle Strikes, then finally a standard action to attack or charge.

The attack roll bonuses won't stack, but the bonus damage dice technically will. A GM could allow it in their game if they wanted to, but I certainly wouldn't. Besides, it's a terrible strategy, there's so many ways to either foil the final attack roll or simply get out of the Jedi's reach that it's not that useful, especially against enemies who are expecting the trick from past encounters. Plus there's the whole having half to a third of your Force powers sunk in Battle Strike.

Edit: It doesn't work with the Dark Side version, Dark Rage, because it says '+2 rage bonus on melee attack rolls and damage rolls' thus keeping the like bonuses from stacking if multiple Dark Rages were used in a row. Which is good, because somebody doing the Battle Strike cheese would do the same thing here, using the power multiple times and stacking up enormous to hit and damage bonuses, and potentially paying a Force point to make them last for the whole encounter. The authors were clearly more careful writing Dark Rage than Battle Strike.

Good points on the 5 battle strike part just imagine what would happen if someone used that with a ranged attack :smalleek:, however this is not what i recomended, which was 2 battle strikes then melee or charge, hardly as "cheesy" or as risky, but rather intended as a powerfull melee attack, very usefull in an emergency for someone with 18 Wis and 20 Cha (A damage analogy to second wind if you will). i would personally allow 2 battle strikes to stack in the manner i recomended, however i would become wary if i suspected this would make the in party difference to great or if you started stacking more of them.

you will do well to remember that many things in SAGA become silly/cheesy/whatever if you use to much of them, yet this should not result in needless banns for PCs that are more moderate (in comparison to their groups)Power attack+destiny Point/serenity+triple crit could result in silly damage (as in 120 extra) for instance , doesen't mean Power attack should be banned, wheter Destiny crits should is another matter entirely , and additionaly that the damage from 2 battle strikes can be negated by a single force shield (is that power banned in your games to :smallconfused:?)

The fact that i also ban (or change/weaken) several things is entirelly irrelevant :smalltongue:

[Alejandro]

It would become even crazier if a Gunslinger picked up 5 uses of Battle Strike (would take them a little more work unless their Wisdom was great) and then did the same thing with a blaster shot. I'm pretty sure most GMs would disallow it, though, if they were wise. Unless the party is OK with fairly basic enemies doing the same thing to them (all you need is a Force using mook with several Battle Strikes, a decent Wisdom and Dex, and a gun. Now send several of them at once, and have them shoot at the same PC.)

For melee, it gets even more broken if you throw a few basic Sith enemies at your party, each of which uses Dark Rage first to give themselves (with a good roll) +6 to hit and +6 to damage, and then spends the FP to make it last. Then they do the same Battle Strike trick, except now they have stacking rage and Force bonuses for an extra +7 on the big attack roll, and could be throwing 15d6+6+other damage at you when they hit. A smart Sith group would have some ranged and some melee enemies doing this in concert, and you would slaughter the PCs (which is why it's cheesy to begin with.)

And no, I don't ban hardly anything outright. I simply don't allow obvious exploits that turn the game into a numbers-of-dice-and-bonuses cold war between PCs or between PCs and the GM. You can allow whatever you like in your game, of course.

Finally, I'd appreciate it if you were a little less patronizing. We're entirely aware of how many things can become cheesy, and we are mostly here on this forum to help Saga players (and GMs) enjoy playing Saga. That includes pointing out things that are going to result in issues like the one detailed above.

[Waar]

Why go to all that effort whenyou can simply give your opponents the advantageous opening talent (one of the 2 thing i have most certanly, under any and all circumstances, from now till the hypothetical moment i nerf them, banned :smallsmile:) and break the game :smallwink:

Basic, smart level 9+ sith in a coordinated group huh :smallwink: not something you see every day. Nice exaggeration(/hyperbole?) there by the way :smallsmile: Several, higher level than you, opponents focus firing on you feels like a bit to much overkill, or perhaps you disagree and were in fact dead serious :smalltongue:

And sorry for comming across as patronizing, it was not my intention :smallredface:. I had hoped that i would have made it clear that i was taking this a lot less serious than some of my hyperbole statements would have implied. Yet i clearly failed to do this and for that i am very sorry :smallredface:, perhaps i should have made it more clear in the text and less dependent on smilies.

Eidt: In regard to the gunslinger taking 5 battle strikes, i would personally be more worried about an assasin/sniper doing it :smalleek:

[Alejandro]

I was thinking more Sith Empire, which could easily use such tactics. And the sniper would be much worse, you are correct.

[Waar]

I guess the Sith are prone to commiting overkill, which sith empire by the way :smalltongue:

[Xaragos]

It looks like in the game at hand, Dark Rage + Battle Strike is ok, but multiple Battle Strikes are not.

As for advantageous opening, I did hear a suggestion about treating it as an attack of opportunity. So if someone rolls a *1* then you can fire, using your attack of opportunity for the round. If you have Combat Reflexes and this talent, then you can do it up to your dex bonus per round. What do you think about that?

And yes Destiny points are powerful. Never thought of using Power Attack along with it, but that seems like someone would have to really planned for that mechanic. Super cheese to be sure. Hrm...once a destiny is achieved, they get their bonus but are the destiny points gone at that point (any leftover)?

Also, for the original thread purposes. What are ways to increase lightsaber damage? IE if you are trying to maximize the number of damage dice, etc without too much sacrificing of accuracy...what is the optimum way to get the most out of the glowstick? :)

[Alejandro]

Some ways to increase lightsaber damage:

1. Have a higher STR, use the weapon two handed.
2. Use many of the Force powers that do this. Battle Strike, lightsaber form powers, and so on. Lots of choices.
3. There are Jedi Knight lightsaber form talents that boost damage.
4. Mod the weapon with a lightsaber crystal that boosts damage, or with Tech Specialist/Superior Tech.
5. Rapid Strike
6. Power Attack
7. Multiclass: Perhaps a Sneak Attack/Trick Step Jedi, that makes their target flatfooted and then strikes. Or a Jedi with Soldier Ambusher talents, that designates a primary target and does bonus damage to it.
8. Another party member that can grant you bonus actions, which can be bonus attacks, which is more potential damage.