OOTS #888 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Mordae]

Oh, now that's just messing with us!

Awesome :smallcool:

[runekiri]

Wow... I did NOT expect that! :smalltongue:

[MelTorefas]

First I thought it was Roy getting married, then I thought it was Elan.

Amazing strip. XD

[137beth]

I love how half the people there look miserable:smallbiggrin:

[Poppy Appletree]

...Is the Linear Guild trapped as well?

[nogall]

Great comic, and still no Belkar...

[Copperdragon]

Even if these happenings are pretty much as expected it still is very funny. :smallsmile:

Roy's Elan's brother now.

[Codyage]

Is that Inky in the front row? If so, this may confirm the entire group illusion scenario.


But for the most part...this wedding...it is so sad, because it won't happen.

Second question. Well that can't be it, since Malack is the priest.

So what is Elan's plan for Durkon? We haven't seen it in the illusion...

[fan4battle]

This is, like, Elan's own fanfiction! :smallbiggrin: I also wasn't expecting Tarquin to be the groom, as he was so confident, but as he said - he's got a lot of experience with this things.

[Lauren]

I'm really enjoying the insights we're getting into the Order's desires here!

[Copperdragon]

Is that Inky in the front row? If so, this may confirm the entire group illusion scenario.

Yes, it seems to be. But this is odd, since even if this was a group-illusion, Vaarsuvius would still not be here.
It might be that Vaarusivus told Haley, but this entire piece here pretty much screams "Elan", especially as the last strip was "Happy Ending".

[Dagnir]

And I guess that huge beast in the corner is the one we constantly see in shadows? At least the eyes look the same..

[zql]

what a nice touch to invite Sir Francois

[Bagger Baggins]

Very, very cool. I like how Banjo and his new lady friend are guests in the lower left on the front row.

[Sunken Valley]

We're never going to escape the happy ending! ahhh

Purple shade looks nicer this time. The old colour made me feel sick.

Also, does mean Elan's Mother was part of Elan's plan? I assume that happened in the happy ending verse.

Don't know why Roy's vision would approve of Tarquin getting a happy ending.

EDIT: V looks like a girl in this.

[The_Tentacle]

Well that was unexpected.

And also confirms that Elan at least is contributing to the illusion, not just Roy.

[Echon]

"Kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss the lucky bride."

[thatSeniorGuy]

Very, very cool. I like how Banjo and his new lady friend are guests in the lower left on the front row.

Nice catch! I also live the Empress holding her tiny bouquet!

[zimmerwald1915]

And I guess that huge beast in the corner is the one we constantly see in shadows? At least the eyes look the same..
Pretty sure that's the Empress of Blood.

EDIT: partially ninja'd...I guess...:smallconfused:

[theangelJean]

And I guess that huge beast in the corner is the one we constantly see in shadows? At least the eyes look the same..

Huge beast in the corner ... are you talking about the left hand side of the final panel? I'm pretty sure that's the Empress of Blood. Which would kinda make sense at a wedding Malack presided over where Tarquin was getting married.

Edit: ninja'd...

[Defiant]

This is definitely specific to Elan, since it has the most silly characters for a final ending - what's Sabine and the Empress of Blood doing there?? This means the last one was probably Roy's, although this could easily be a continuation.

[fan4battle]

Also, does mean Elan's Mother was part of Elan's plan? I assume that happened in the happy ending verse.
I think there was a strip where Elan expressed desire for his mother and father to reunite.

I'm starting to get the feeling the Order will have been in the illusion for a while, and the awakening will not be at all pleasant...

[KillianHawkeye]

And I guess that huge beast in the corner is the one we constantly see in shadows? At least the eyes look the same..

"Huge beast in the corner?" Surely you're not referring to the Empress standing with the other bridesmaids? :smallconfused:

EDIT: The ninja! It BURNS us!!

[Person_Man]

Nooooooo!!!! If we the audience see everyone's happy story in the dream world, then it will never happen in the real continuity. Which means that everyone is doomed to failure and/or bittersweet endings. So very, very sad.

Fabulous story telling though. I don't think I've ever been so emotionally engaged in the life of any cartoon or comic book character since the Dark Phoenix Saga.

[Ionbound]

Oh man, this is bad. Awakening will NOT be pleasant and likely send everyone into BSOD mode.

[Nymrod]

I think this is Elan's plan; get his dad and mom together and he somehow thinks it will work (who knows, it actually might!).

[Gorfnod]

Why do I feel like the Giant is going to pull a fast one and reveal that this is Tarquin's illusion.

[blueblade]

Part of me wonders if the Giant intially intended the last strip to serve as Elan's oracular happy ending, but then he realised forum posters needed it spelled out for them even more literally...

[MeanMrsMustard]

The last one just made me sad, but this one made me sad and made me laugh. Tarquin was amazing. Little Fighter Girl was amazing. All the little bowties were amazing. And I'm just really sad now.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Edit: in that last panel, I guess that's Ian to the right of Banjo. How did he get red hair again? And who's the random Kobold to the right of Z? Having Thog, Leaky, and a random guard on the groom's side stretches it a bit as well.

I thought Elan, Tarquin, and Nale would be wearing sashes.

Also, Roy seems to be a bit of a glory seeker.

And the Giant still doesn't reveal Elan's mother's name!

Kinda wondering what the payoff from this sequence will be.

[treyh37]

so bride side audience I see
elan puppets, sir francois, inkyrius, V, durkon

groom side has
thog(?), Z, one of the kobold (not sure which ones elan thinks are still alive) leaky windstaff, and a EoB guard

[Defiant]

I think this is Elan's plan; get his dad and mom together and he somehow thinks it will work (who knows, it actually might!).

This is also quite telling. The last illusion was very realistic, probably since it was Roy's (or Roy-influenced) - casualties, detailed plan for destroying the lich, etc. This one is very "Elan realistic" given the events.

[Ivrytwr]

This is a little concerning.
Will the tidy little ending get yanked away just in time to realize they are trapped? Bardic tradition, right?

[Aldrakan]

It looks like Leeky Windstaff was included too for some reason. Maybe in this fantasy Malack never joined the LG and so they needed a divine caster?

So... does Elan not know his mother's name?

[Ikialev]

Hey
Hey Rich
It's an illusion, I think we all get it
Can we actually move on or is it going to be relevant somehow to the main plot

e: Also why is Leaky Wetshaft even in this strip, he was a complete non-character

[Deepbluediver]

For all the people wondering why different characters show up (V, the linear guild, the empress of blood)
I'm guessing that this is evidence of a shared vision, where the spell-trap is doing it's best to accomadate everyone.

Also, it could be having an enchanting (the spell type) influence on those caught in it's grasp, which is why everyone is "happy" with this version of events, even if it makes little sense with regards to their normal personality or history. That's why even though this is an Elan-centric fantasy, we still get the intro with it focused on Roy.

Which makes me think that at some point, the spell will start to fail because it can't juggle everyone's desires all at once.


Edit: And yes, the Empress of Blood is frelling adorable.

[ChristianSt]

Really great strip!

Could this mean the Linear Guild got trapped, too? And how much time has passed? Can't wait to see how things are going from here (but it would also be totally awesome to see some more of these awesome illusions!)

Totally awesome scene with the kids wanting all to become fighters!

[Barstro]

So... does Elan not know his mother's name?

My concern as well. Maybe he always called her mother. But not knowing her name is the only thing that would make me think this is somehow Tarquin's illusion.

However, I'm pretty sure T is really back in his realm recouping and not subject to the runes.

Maybe she is just saving her real name for when she is mortally wounded.

[Smolder]

Malack as a good priest, presiding over their wedding, is the most disturbing and disgusting thing I've seen in a long time... although he does look kinda funny in the hat.

[Ionbound]

Part of me wonders if the Giant intially intended the last strip to serve as Elan's oracular happy ending, but then he realised forum posters needed it spelled out for them even more literally...

Nah, if I remember correctly Word of Giant says the Oracle was referring to the end of the storyline.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

So... does Elan not know his mother's name?

More importantly, *we* don't...so if the Minister had said "Do you re-take Joan to be your..." the average viewer would have no freekin clue who that was.

Admittedly, many forumites would have, because...well...OCD about who's who...but Rich doesn't' write for the forum folks, he writes for his entire audience.

[zimmerwald1915]

Hey
Hey Rich
It's an illusion, I think we all get it
Can we actually move on or is it going to be relevant somehow to the main plot

e: Also why is Leaky Wetshaft even in this strip, he was a complete non-character
This will end well for you.

[nogall]

It looks like Leeky Windstaff was included too for some reason. Maybe in this fantasy Malack never joined the LG and so they needed a divine caster?

So... does Elan not know his mother's name?

Malack is the minister of the wedding, isn't it? I think Leeky is there just cause they had to fill the church :smallbiggrin:

[Malimar]

Edit: And yes, the Empress of Blood is frelling adorable.

I just noticed her preposterous little tutu. I think that just makes the scene right there.

[Smolder]

Did you notice Banjo and his girlfriend in the far bottom left? Yet Elan is in the ceremony. So who's holding them? Or do they even require a puppeteer anymore...? If not, clearly it's Elan's fantasy alone. Any of the others would disbelieve that, I would hope...

[Ezra_The_Mad]

Is Inkryius (spelling?) standing to V's left on the bride's side? The order is aware of the fact that V is married, but are they specifically aware of the fact that he's married to another gender-ambiguous elf with a green ponytail? That might be relevant.


Also, V looks very feminine in this one. Rockin' the V-neck.

And now that I look at it, that pun was completely unintended.


EDIT: And I also love that Sabine still has her tail manifested. Fiends represent.

[zimmerwald1915]

Did you notice Banjo and his girlfriend in the far bottom left?
Thog seems to be alive too.

[Chromascope3D]

Oh man, this is bad. Awakening will NOT be pleasant and likely send everyone into BSOD mode.

Was just about to say. When this hits, it will hit hard. :smalleek:

[nohamotyo]

It's hard to tell because most of the character is cut off, but is that Therkla in the bottom right hand corner of the last frame? It looks like she has XX eyes, if it is her.

Edit: also, it's nice to see that Mrs. Banjo is attending as well. I wonder if her presence indicates that #887 was at least a partially shared vision.

[Kgw]

Nice strip, and since Elan said what he said, probably we will/might one perfect ending for everyone of the order.
Anyway, this runes seems the perfect defense: giving your enemy everything they wanted.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Very nice strip.

I like how Rich managed to match-up the couples here. We have Tarquin and Elan's mother, then Elan and Haley, then Nale and Sabine, then Roy and Celia, and then Kilkil and... the Empress of Blood? :smallconfused:

There is another little detail. Whose desire it to have Tarquin sign a pre-nuptial agreement?

Also, nice touch in putting Elan's puppets, Sir Francois, Inkyrius and Leeky. Way to confuse your audience, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Smolder]

Thog seems to be alive too.

Oooh! Is that who that is in the front row, bald head? The color is so tinted that it doesn't look like Thog's skin color at all... but I think you're right. The rest of the LG is there, Sabine's even in a bride's maid.

[Shatteredtower]

This is heart-breaking. Not quite on par with "For the Man Who Has Everything", but close.

[Tragak]

Hey
Hey Rich
It's an illusion, I think we all get it
Can we actually move on or is it going to be relevant somehow to the main plot



If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. That is all :smallsmile:

[Nohar]

I'm worried too about the possible awakening... What may have been a few minutes in reality could very well be years in this illusion. That's one of the danger of a Lotus-Eater machine. Even if they manage to awaken, they will be incredibly shaken. Everything was fine... and then it isn't. It's downright depressing. Depending on the characters, some may recover quickly than others (if they recover at all).

This trap truly is the most dangerous thing in this pyramid.

On a side note: the empress of blood is adorable!... For a overweight dragon, that is.

[ShadowRudolph]

V looks clearly feminine in this strip, of course it's an illusion and doesn't mean anything. Also, I found the tought of Sabine marrying Nale like that to be hilarious, for some reason.

[DaOldeWolf]

Lots of guesses of whom were getting married before the reveal. Great comic. Is that Inkyrius over there?

[Shred-Bot]

I'm a little surprised Elan and Tarquin aren't wearing sashes. NOTHING is more formal than a sash, after all.

[Shale]

What about TWO sashes? Besides, anything would look disappointing next to Malack's pope hat.

It is fantastic that Elan thinks his mother's name is Elan's Mother.

(Also, I feel compelled to repeat that the Giant has literally said that the meaning of the prophecy is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending." This ain't it.)

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

Really getting a kick out of the formal wizard robes... and Roy's boots.

[Smolder]

(Also, I feel compelled to repeat that the Giant has literally said that the meaning of the prophecy is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending." This ain't it.)

Okay, now repeat that reminder every 3 pages of thread and we might be able to avoid that discussion

[Mono Vertigo]

... am I terrible for wanting them to snap out of it now, before the illusion goes much further, even though they are at their happiest? :smalleek:

I fear they might imagine the rest of their life, growing old together, having their friends die peacefully of old age, and only wake up after spending decades in their own mind.
Even if it only takes a minute or two in the real world, this is bound to damage their psyche greatly. Not just the lost time, but finding out half their acquaintances are dead, crushed, or plain irredeemable. I want them to wake up before they spend too much time imagining there can be such a thing as inviting Malack and Durkon and Tarquin and Nale and everybody else to a wedding. That... just can't happen anywhere, but in Elan's innocent imagination.

[Knick]

This is more heartbreaking then a Moffat Doctor Who episode. Well played.

It looks like this is almost completely Elan's fantasy. Especially since Banjo and his girlfriend are there. I especially like how the Empress of Blood is paired wtih KilKil.

[zimmerwald1915]

This trap truly is the most dangerous thing in this pyramid.
...so far :smalleek:

[pendell]

I kind of agree with Ikialev -- while it IS a beautiful strip and shows Elan's thoughts and dreams, it doesn't really seem to tell us anything that we didn't learn from 887. They're trapped in an illusion.

Still, I suppose that if Rich is going to all the effort to portray the illusions in such detail, they must somehow influence the main plot. I'm going to speculate, in order of what I consider decreasing likelihood:

1) The illusion is shown in such detail because escaping this epic-level trap is going to be a significant challenge. Somehow, the participants in the illusion must figure out they are in an illusion and disbelieve it.

Maybe a moment like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb6yOklzHMI).

2) One of the characters will gain a critical insight that will prove vital in solving the main strip. I consider this unlikely because we've already had Belkar's character-building dream, and it's unlikely we'll see the same thing again so quickly.

3) This really is a shared dream of EVERYONE in the labyrinth -- linear guild AND OOTS -- and this shared dream will be a form of combat which will have real-world consequences.

Y'know? This might work to the order's advantage. I don't really believe that #3 is what's happening now, but once the order escapes they might be able to use a similar illusory trap to their advantage. They are very weak now compared to the other teams in the dungeon in reality. But if they were to fight them inside an illusion, they might be able to fight on much more even terms, particularly if they can control the illusion (because they know it IS one) but the other teams can't. Imagine fighting someone within your own dream, when YOU can control the dream and they are simply participants in it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Vectner]

Oh, please stop doing this, it's just so damn sad!

[nogall]

I just noticed one of the biggest understatements of the whole comic:
Tarquin: "It'll be just fine, Elan. Trust me, I have some experience with these events" :smallwink:

[Ikialev]

This will end well for you.

I am not Elan.

[Morty]

So... does Elan not know his mother's name?

Sure he does. But he doesn't think of her by her name. He thinks of her as "my mother".

[Ellye]

Oh man, this is bad. Awakening will NOT be pleasant and likely send everyone into BSOD mode.This is what I think might happen, indeed...

Awakening up from this illusion will be traumatic.

[Gorgon_Heap]

Oh, now that's just messing with us!

Awesome :smallcool:

Yeah. Getting brutal.

It's like Rich got all of us with the Black Mercy!

[ZarDaranth]

I honestly have no problem with this comic. It does advance the plot, somewhat slowly.

It explains what Elan's plan to stop Tarquin consists of. By rule of Drama, the story either ends when the bad guy dies or there is a wedding, and the bad guy can be redeemed. Tarquin wants his story to to end in a blaze of glory, but Elan refuses to believe that's the only option.

(I was honestly hoping for a Parent Trap style plot)

[shadowpriest]

In my opinion, V's feminine appearance is due to the main dreamer's point of view. Still, the dress might be an Elven (Elvish? Preshley?) ceremonial suit.

[Aotrs Commander]

Paaaaahahahaa!

Did not see that one coming, not at all!

Nicely bait-and-switched Giant, I fell right into that one!

[Sith_Happens]

(Also, I feel compelled to repeat that the Giant has literally said that the meaning of the prophecy is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending." This ain't it.)

Unless he's pulling a Gainax on us and this IS the ending. But I doubt that.

[oppyu]

Oh... oh poor Elan. That's the most depressing strip since... one of the most recent strips actually. Damn this strip's gotten dark lately.

[Hastur Avaddon]

For the longest time I believed that this illusion was a shared one between each of the characters, fulfilling all of their wishes simultaneously while putting them in a combined fake world. However, with the revelation that Elan's Mother is referred to as "Elan's Mother" I'm beginning to have my doubts...

What if WE'RE the ones trapped in the Illusion! What if WE the audience are the ones perpetuating this Matrix! Quick! Everyone try to think our way through this dream world! Only we can save ourselves and The Order! Before it's too late and we go mad with expectation and desire!

I think I can... I think I can... I think...

[rman]

Ok, so the parents get remarried to up the drama of Elan killing his evil father?

I call Elan busting the illusion for disbelieving.

[Millennium]

So... does Elan not know his mother's name?
This being a D&D comic, I would not be at all surprised to learn that her name is in fact "Elan's Mother".

[Azukar]

So I wonder why, in-story, Elan thinks of his mother as "Elan's Mother"? Presumably he knows his mother's first name?

(And yes I know why The Giant didn't mention her name)

[Deepbluediver]

It is fantastic that Elan thinks his mother's name is Elan's Mother.

I suspect this was a story-telling decision. Since none of us have actually heard the name of Elan's mother, if Malak just said something like, "Do you, Tarquin, take this woman Eleanor (or Sophie or Catherine or anything else)", then 95+% of the readership would have been like "WHO?!?".

And I'm sure the forum would have sussed out her likely identity, but not everyone reads the forums, and it's still not as dramatic. Sort of like how a joke isn't funny if it has to be explained to you.

[Chantelune]

Nice one, love V in a girly dress. :smallsmile:

[Gift Jeraff]

If her name really is Elan's Mother, then it is likely that her only story role was to wake up Elan because he slept in the day he was supposed to meet Sir Francois or something. :smalltongue:

[oppyu]

:elan:: "This is the happiest day of my life."

I am literally on the verge of crying here. Giant, you bastard.

[Anatares]

I'm thinking this is the start of a new mini-arc and will take a few comics to complete, so everyone wishing a speedy resolution because we're worried for the health of the characters (myself included) won't get one. First we're going to see them immerse themselves in this impossible fantasy world, then the walls are gouing to slowly crumble around them as they figure it out.

It's like Roy in heaven all over again. They're so consumed with happiness that time is just going to race by :(

[Vinsfeld]

Yeah!

Thog, Bitches!

EDIT: Also, I'm getting worried about how long they've been in this "dreamland"

[LeSwordfish]

This is heartbreaking.

Also, the idea of a group of small children growing up to be an adventuring party? I love that and want to use it.

[Niknokitueu]

Haven't got time to read the whole thread ATM, so apologies if I say something said before.

1) it seems that it is indeed a group vision, as Roy is not happy in the last panel.

2) As a corollary, maybe Roy is catching onto the obvious flaws involving Durkon, Malek (sp?) et al. Never know, this could be a dream breaker...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. Awesome as ever, Rich.

[inuyasha]

I think that 887 was roys illusion of happiness. His dad has his wings, Xykon is dead, Belkar is dead (that guy always annoyed him :P), and the rest of the party looks happy...exept for V...(s)he just looks neutral. And I think this one is Elans because his happy ending is him getting the father figure he never had as a child, the older brother he never got to play with, and his lonely mother finally has a man to be happy with.

[Adaon Nightwind]

This is incredible. Such a beautiful event, and we all know that it only happens in the mind of the beholder..

It's making me cry.:smallfrown:


Brilliant Storytelling.

[theinsulabot]

wasnt a huge fan of this one either, but I will say this comic made me for the very first first time in a very long while that V may actually be female, so there is that.

[Adventurer]

That's the second strip in a row that both isn't real (third if you count 95% of #886) and is also not funny. I hope this boring waste of time doesn't drag on any longer.

[Francis Davey]

A wonderful thing to find on a wet Friday afternoon.



And the Giant still doesn't reveal Elan's mother's name!

I think that must be because whoever is dreaming *that* bit isn't Elan (i.e. either it is a group contribution thing or it is someone who isn't Elan). Elan knows his own mother's name.

Edit: someone suggested this was evidence for it being Elan's vision (because he would only think of her as "his mother", but I still think the phrase "Elan's mother" is awkward even in *his* mind).

[theinsulabot]

hey come on now, I may not have been a huge fan either, but there is a difference between voicing an honest complaint and just griping about it you know

[canpinter]

I'm willing to bet that Elans bard training will make him realize that the "happiest day in my life" is always an illusion, the trap is to perfect and that's what gives it away.

[Morph Bark]

If this is a shared illusion, kind of like a shared dream in Inception sort of, then I figure at least one of them is going to figure out it's odd that the woman is named "Elan's Mother".

EDIT: Who's the guy next to Inkirius (sp?)? Haley's father with his hair still red?

[LordofNaught]

I...wha....this is getting weird. I applaud the Giant for coming up with this stuff, but I just can't help but tilt my head.

[Mido]

I can't stop but fidget as I sit. Once I read the title, I was already fairly certain that this would be the continuation of the illusion trap. It's not bad, the suspense should make the climax of this arc shine, but I just can't keep calm about what is going on outside of this "happy ending".

I don't want them to be stuck anymore. Do something you lovable band of misfits. Don't lose. :smallfrown:

[Sigmund]

That's the second strip in a row that both isn't real (third if you count 95% of #886) and is also not funny. I hope this boring waste of time doesn't drag on any longer.

I don't think it's meant to be funny, but poignant. The order, especially Roy, is still in denial concerning Durkon's death, and this dream shows all the happy endings the party will never see.

Durkon is dead and his friendship with Malack sundered.

Elan's father is a mass-murdering tyrant.

Roy, at this point, has little chance to win a one-on-one fight with Xykon.

And none of the characters want to admit these things. When this dream sequence breaks, it will be because one of the characters accepts the harsh reality that they cannot have the happy ending they want.

That's enough justification for the dream sequence in my book.

[jidasfire]

Hmm, this is interesting. We clearly already know this is an illusion, so we must perforce ask why it's still going. I doubt very much it's because the Giant is simply stalling for time or just wanted to show more happiness we'll never get for its own sake. No, I suspect there are a couple potential reasons.

1. It's likely the Order themselves will have to get out of the illusion on their own and navigate their way through its world.
2. Some have suggested Girard might still be around somehow. My guess is it won't be him so much as an illusionary form of him. In the Geekademia interview (shameless plug!), Rich suggested we'd find out more of why Girard hates Soon so much, and such an illusion might be the way to do it.

[The Pilgrim]

Shared illusion, then. It's settled.

And, was that Inky besides V? doest han mean 'suvie has entered the Room?

[Liliet]

Oh God.
There were three potential couples and it was one I didn`t think about!
1) Roy&Celia;
2) Haley&Elan;
3) Vaarsuvius&Inkyrius.
But no, it had to be... well, it had to be something everyone asked about in the last thread. Was to be expected, actually. Respect to Giant :smallamused:

But seriously, just how many more comics will we see till we get to see outside world? I`m not even saying "till OotS wakes up", I remember Roy`s resurrection too well for that, I`m saying "till we see what`s going on with V, Tarquin, Nale&Co"...

[Deepbluediver]

Shared illusion, then. It's settled.

And, was that Inky besides V? doest han mean 'suvie has entered the Room?

Probably not. Just like it doesn't mean that Sir Francis, the Linear Guild, and the Empress of Blood are also in the room. It just means the OotS is imagining V in their vision.

[Dumbestupidiot]

After all the hectic running around from the linear guild that we know they are coming to get our heroes, as well as The Lich arriving soon, a repeat of the illusion in the next panel just seems like a sudden stop and faceplant from the frantic revelations and the well, ensuing panic, especially as it isn't real so it has no real feel about finding the mcguffin which we have been searching for for... well, since before i started reading the comic... possibly the past year in real time... i dunno...

It just feels we are real close to something, on the verge of yet another important discover in the quest when we are suddenly thrown into a sureal and unreal world.

That being said, now I feel kinda like the kid doing fingerpainting telling Michalangelo that he made a smudge at a corner of the sistine chapel, even though the smudge is likely intentional as I haven't seen the whole scene and how it plays yet.

[Kolhammer]

IF this is a shared illusion, have to wonder what will happen when Nale joins in if he does.

[pearl jam]

Seeing the Empress of Blood in the bridal party with a tiny bouquet and a tutu is enough to make me laugh at this strip. :smallbiggrin:

[shamgar001]

"Elan's mother." That's hilarious.

I'm still thinking that this is a shared fantasy, influenced by everyone involved. Elan's does seem to be taking over, but that might be because he has the wildest imagination. Or maybe because he has the most clear vision of what he wants.

[luc258]

That's the second strip in a row that both isn't real (third if you count 95% of #886) and is also not funny. I hope this boring waste of time doesn't drag on any longer.

At first I thought the same as you, but I by now I think that this will not be a boring waste of time, but it is the start of the end arc of this book. Instead of a plain battle oots vs linear guild vs team evil the Giant will use this as a way to make for a surprising ending.
The next panel won't be a then they just snapped out of it, then they got sad, then they moved on to the gate.

[stevem]

"Elan's mother." That's hilarious.

I'm still thinking that this is a shared fantasy, influenced by everyone involved. Elan's does seem to be taking over, but that might be because he has the wildest imagination. Or maybe because he has the most clear vision of what he wants.

Didn't Tarquin once mention that bard should rule the world as they are masters of the narrative structure? I wonder if something similar is occurring within the illusion. Everyone in the OotS has hopes and dreams, but Elan is best suited to giving them a coherent pseudo-life as a bard. As a result he's the conductor leading the orchestra.

[pikeamus]

I think those complaining about the strip not advancing the plot should try and be more patient. This trap seems to be Girard's grand backup gate defence, granting it a few extra pages will be important in making it seem like a sufficiently epic challenge and to explain the level of shock and disappointment they all feel when they break out. Basically I'm saying... think about how it will parse in the book rather than how it feels now with a big delay between each strip.

[Ravens_cry]

I think the dream is going to start to crack soon, it's getting less and less plausible. One interesting thing to note is the secon panel and what it possibly tells us how at least one other character perceives V's gender.

[Lynn]

About the asscence of Belkar:Even if the illusion is shared, each characters can only see the events from their own point of view. So, I think, in the illusion, Belkar woke up as a vampire after the group left him for dead and went on a never ending bloody rampage.
That would be his happy ending, and as long as the rest of the order doesn't find out within the illusion, everyone is happy.

Have you noticed how, since strip 886, when the events started stretching suspension of disbelief, the illusion world keeps going more and more purple?

[Belkar<3]

What a trick. I thought it was Elan for sure until the last panel. Vaarsuvius looks cool, and so does Durkon. I think this is just a continuation of everyone's shared dream.

[Temotei]

That's the second strip in a row that both isn't real (third if you count 95% of #886) and is also not funny. I hope this boring waste of time doesn't drag on any longer.

You could just glance at the strip, see if it's a dream, and leave if it is if you really don't care at all. :smallconfused:

[WastedTalent]

Interesting...the first 2 panels definitely seem to spring from Roy's imagination (Roy being a celebrated hero, fighters being more popular than wizards) while the rest of it has a distinct Elan-ish feel (the wedding itself, and the presence of several major villains going along with the whole thing).

I wonder if we're going to have several more pages of each party member in their own fantasy, or if it's going to be more of a shared illusion storyline - like #887 seems to indicate. If so, I wonder what will happen if anybody else, like the LG, should become trapped in it...

And more than that I wonder how and when the order is gonna snap out of it.

[Scizor]

Also, how is this not funny? Empress in a tutu and Elan's Mother both made me laugh, which means that it at least is funny to some people. The comic might not advance the plot, but it *is* interesting and funny.

[AvangionQ]

What the ... they haven't disbelieved the illusion yet? Wouldn't Belkar have woken up when he `died`, then started slapping the crap out of the others ...

[Sleypy]

So I may be reading to much into these last two comics. I was thought the the spiral pattern and changing color for Roy's was a sign that he might be recovering from the hallucination? After I saw today's comic it made me think it is a stronger possibility.

[Kislath]

I notice that both Roy and Sabine look unhappy in that last panel.

Sabine isn't really here, of course, so I have no idea how to interpret this, but Roy is definitely the smart one of the bunch, and look on his face isn't just unhappiness, but one of..."hey..waitaminute." See how he isn't looking at the wedding, but instead is staring off into the space before him? That's a guy who is figuring out that something is terribly amiss.

Isn't it amazing what can be done with stick figures?

"...Have you noticed how, since strip 886, when the events started stretching suspension of disbelief, the illusion world keeps going more and more purple?.."

A Purple Haze?

[Shred-Bot]

What about TWO sashes? Besides, anything would look disappointing next to Malack's pope hat.

It is fantastic that Elan thinks his mother's name is Elan's Mother.

(Also, I feel compelled to repeat that the Giant has literally said that the meaning of the prophecy is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending." This ain't it.)

Yeah, all the sashes in the world couldn't stand up to that hat and the Empress's getup. A+ for costuming this strip definitely.

Also, having the high priest of a death god (not to mention the Lizgreaper himself) perform the wedding certainly puts some extra oomph on "'til death do us part", no?

[JCAll]

My favorite part is The Empress looking and Kilkil and smiling while he has an "Oh my god" look on his face.

The only questions I have are who the guard and the random kabold on the groom's side is.

[Belkar<3]

Didn't Tarquin once mention that bard should rule the world as they are masters of the narrative structure? I wonder if something similar is occurring within the illusion. Everyone in the OotS has hopes and dreams, but Elan is best suited to giving them a coherent pseudo-life as a bard. As a result he's the conductor leading the orchestra.

That's a very interesting idea of this illusion that I haven't thought of yet. Seems plausible.

[Scizor]

I notice that both Roy and Sabine look unhappy in that last panel.

Sabine isn't really here, of course, so I have no idea how to interpret this, but Roy is definitely the smart one of the bunch, and look on his face isn't just unhappiness, but one of..."hey..waitaminute." See how he isn't looking at the wedding, but instead is staring off into the space before him? That's a guy who is figuring out that something is terribly amiss.

Isn't it amazing what can be done with stick figures?

Really? I figured it was more of a "meh" face. You know, standard, indifferent expression. A straight line for a mouth would just not look natural, so its got a bit downwards curve.

[EmperorSarda]

So Elan would rather that his parents get back together than marry Haley? Huh.

[CoffeeIncluded]

You're enjoying this way too much, Giant. :smalltongue:

[Jay R]

I think this is Elan's plan; get his dad and mom together and he somehow thinks it will work (who knows, it actually might!).

Of course - that's why he needed Durkon for the plan to work. A Wedding requires a cleric.


(I was honestly hoping for a Parent Trap style plot)

Parents that divorce.
Twins separated at birth who become rivals when they meet.
Happy ending of a re-marriage with the twins serving in the wedding party.

Unless you wanted Elan and Nale to pose as each other to see the opposite parent, or sing "Let's Get Together," you've pretty much gotten it.

(And Nale has posed as Elan once.)


Hey
Hey Rich
It's an illusion, I think we all get it
Can we actually move on or is it going to be relevant somehow to the main plot
Every digression so far has been relevant to the plot; I suspect that this one will be too - possibly to show us how they break out of the illusion, or to motivate their reactions when V casts Disple Magic, or some such.

e: Also why is Leaky -------- even in this strip, he was a complete non-character

I suspect that you will have more influence on an author if you don't insult his characters.

[DougTheHead]

I like the little signs that this is a composite illusion that everyone's contributing to in some way- the kids arguing over who gets to be the fighter is obviously Roy's fantasy, for example.

[Xelbiuj]

I hope Rich is just keeping us occupied while Xykon wrecks Tarquin and crew.
It would make his fight against their adventuring party just that more bad ass than actually showing it.

This may not be explicating advancing the story line but if the OOTS wake up and the pyramid is destroyed, hundreds of dead EoB guards, maybe a half dead catlady or warlock(?) for them to explain things a bit, etc . . . then it doesn't mean that the plot hasn't advanced.

No one but Rich knows, so crying about this not continuing the plot - just shut the hell up.

[Liliet]

I`m sure the guy next to V is not Inky. C`mon people, have you forgotten Elan`s favourite mentor? V is not in the illusion, Elan has never seen or heard about Inky, so the guy is obvisly Julio Scroundrel! If there is Sir Francois there, Julio must obviously be present too.

And I suddenly realised that it couldn`t have been any of the weddings I thought about. The whole point of this dream sequence is that nothing we see there will happen in reality - at least on stage. No throwing the phylactery in the volcano, no retaking the Thieves` Guild, no Roy`s statue in Cliffport, no Tarquin remarrying Elan`s mother just like that. Any of the other weddings are possible. I`m pretty sure Inky only sent V that paper because it was the only way ve could invent to get V to come back, and there is no reason for Roy and Celia to not get wed once the victory is achieved. Elan and Haley may just not think about formal marriage (they are both Chaotic, after all) but I don`t think there`s any other problem in their way.

Tarquin and Elan`s mom, though... nuh-huh. Not going to happen. So Giant spoiled nothing by showing it us as "something that will not happen".

I`m not suggesting Elan won`t ever eat the lollypop, ride the dinosaur, find a mate for Banjo. I even think that Roy drinking beer with Durkon is quite possible, if they manage to resurrect him. But major events won`t be spoiled that way.



I hope Rich is just keeping us occupied while Xykon wrecks Tarquin and crew.
It would make his fight against their adventuring party just that more bad ass than actually showing it.

This may not be explicating advancing the story line but if the OOTS wake up and the pyramid is destroyed, hundreds of dead EoB guards, maybe a half dead catlady or warlock(?) for them to explain things a bit, etc . . . then it doesn't mean that the plot hasn't advanced.

No one but Rich knows, so crying about this not continuing the plot - just shut the hell up.

BUT V IS STILL OUT THERE! Don`t you dare forget about my favorite character.
And no, ve is obviously NOT in this dream. Nothing here about dragons, kids, remarriage, ultimate arcane power, repenting or at least anything we know about V`s motivations.

[Xelbiuj]

I`m sure the guy next to V is not Inky. C`mon people, have you forgotten Elan`s favourite mentor? V is not in the illusion, Elan has never seen or heard about Inky, so the guy is obvisly Julio Scroundrel! If there is Sir Francois there, Julio must obviously be present too.

And I suddenly realised that it couldn`t have been any of the weddings I thought about. The whole point of this dream sequence is that nothing we see there will happen in reality - at least on stage. No throwing the phylactery in the volcano, no retaking the Thieves` Guild, no Roy`s statue in Cliffport, no Tarquin remarrying Elan`s mother just like that. Any of the other weddings are possible. I`m pretty sure Inky only sent V that paper because it was the only way ve could invent to get V to come back, and there is no reason for Roy and Celia to not get wed once the victory is achieved. Elan and Haley may just not think about formal marriage (they are both Chaotic, after all) but I don`t think there`s any other problem in their way.

Tarquin and Elan`s mom, though... nuh-huh. Not going to happen. So Giant spoiled nothing by showing it us as "something that will not happen".

I`m not suggesting Elan won`t ever eat the lollypop, ride the dinosaur, find a mate for Banjo. I even think that Roy drinking beer with Durkon is quite possible, if they manage to resurrect him. But major events won`t be spoiled that way.

He has ears, humans in oots don't. It's clearly an elf with faded out green hair. Inky.

[ZarDaranth]

Parents that divorce.
Twins separated at birth who become rivals when they meet.
Happy ending of a re-marriage with the twins serving in the wedding party.

Unless you wanted Elan and Nale to pose as each other to see the opposite parent, or sing "Let's Get Together," you've pretty much gotten it.

(And Nale has posed as Elan once.)



I don't think Nale would ever try to get their parents back together, unless he had a HUGE change of heart after meeting Elan's Mother. Although....oh my god...

Nale's selfish insanity and evil + belt of gender changing + red hair = LINDSAY LOHAN. Whoa, it's all full circle. Mind = blown.

[gerryq]

That's the second strip in a row that both isn't real (third if you count 95% of #886) and is also not funny. I hope this boring waste of time doesn't drag on any longer.

This can always be an issue with a serial. Maybe the solution is to take a break for a few months if you are feeling this way. Or even start a re-read, and see if the plot has progressed when you get back to 888+!

Personally, I think the Giant is going somewhere plot-wise with this. If it was all just about a cool illusion (like Malak v. Durkon had several panels of a cool fight) I think he would have speeded it up like with the fight.

My guess is that Purple World will soon be turning nasty...

[nephilia]

Look at the speech in frame #5:

Elan : But what if a bad guy burst in and try to stop the wedding?

Tarquin : Son, YOUR Order of the Stick is the most celebrated band of heroes in three generations.

That "your" sounds a lot suspicious to me!

Tarquin was the only one saying continuously that Elan was the party lead in the OOTS. Elan is not so egocentric to say that about himself and surely Roy wouldn't leave the honor to be the party lead to someone else.

My thought is that this is a shared illusion when everyone can contribute.
Let's talk about it like a hand raising votation. Everyone vote for every decision but if a decision is directly involving someone that person's vote count for 2!

So let's see:

Belkar death : belkar found himself guilty for durkon so he think he deserve die. since his death is HIS death he can vote for 2
Roy want belkar death so 1 vote.
Since the fantasy is share by 4 people and belkar's death has already a vote of 3 what haley and elan want is irrilevant so belkar die. Plus... since he think he's dead (it's the first real decision from illusion's start) he can vote anymore!

Durkon alive:
Everyone want him alive so he's alive!

Tarquin and Elan's mom married :
Belkar is dead, no vote.
Elan's vote y and he vote for 2.
Haley would totally want Elan to be happy so the vote is over :)

Etc etc.

[Liliet]

He has ears, humans in oots don't. It's clearly an elf with faded out green hair. Inky.

Does he? *goes to check* Oh, right. Then I have two questions.
1) where he hell is Julio Scoundrel?!
2) what exactly does Elan know about V`s love life and where from? As I recall, it was a surprise to everyone but Haley to learn that V was married in "No Cure for Paladin Blues" arc. And V didn`t share the details of vir "vacation" with anyone.

Of course, V can be in this illusion and just have no idea of what vir "happy ending" could be due to the depression, just like Belkar, but that wouldn`t be very satisfying.
Or V may just have joined the illusion, then this means something interesting plotwise...

[gerryq]

This is heartbreaking.

Also, the idea of a group of small children growing up to be an adventuring party? I love that and want to use it.

There is something similar in World of Warcraft. At around Level 40 you defeat several bosses - corrupted paladins, basically - in the Scarlet Monastery. Much later (in an expansion), there is an instance in which you go back in time to their hometown and see them playing as children. They replicate in their play some events from your fight with them. It is quite affecting.

[Bluepaw]

:elan:: "This is the happiest day of my life."

I am literally on the verge of crying here. Giant, you bastard.

What an outstanding comic.

First thought: NOT THE FEELS! AHHHHHHH Ahgarbulagabah my eyes!

Second thought: Kilkil is simply adorbs in that tux.

Third thought: Waaaait a second. Has anyone in the party but V seen Inkyrius? Would anyone in this party -- even Elan -- be happy with Sabine as a bridesmaid in the dream wedding? Of course I don't understand how the runes work, but... who all is... in this hallway?

Fourth thought: POPE HAT

[t209]

I think they got their throat slit while dreaming.

[Valyrian]

All this points to a shared illusion in my book. If it was just Elan's illusion, we wouldn't have the bits with the children worshipping Roy and wanting to become fighters.

Also, the Empress as bridesmaid was hilarious.


Hey
Hey Rich
It's an illusion, I think we all get it
Can we actually move on or is it going to be relevant somehow to the main plot
Sorry if I'm overreacting to this, but your attitude is sort of a pet peeve of mine. The idea that you can even judge individual pages in terms of terms of "progression of the main plot" or that this is the only criterion by which a page can be worthwhile is completely baffling to me. There are also things like characterization, setup and the elicitation of emotional responses including dramatic irony, all of which this page provides. And quite frankly, without these things, the main plot would just end up being an unengaging bunch of stuff that happened.

The Giant knows this, because he knows how storytelling works. I don't expect every reader to realise this, but what I cannot comprehend is how people can sit in judgement of an individual page, without knowing how it will become relevant in the future, when they have read more than 800 of them already and presumably enjoyed them, and should know that the Giant knows what he's doing.

Look at this post for an excellent example of how it could become relevant.

I don't think it's meant to be funny, but poignant. The order, especially Roy, is still in denial concerning Durkon's death, and this dream shows all the happy endings the party will never see.

Durkon is dead and his friendship with Malack sundered.

Elan's father is a mass-murdering tyrant.

Roy, at this point, has little chance to win a one-on-one fight with Xykon.

And none of the characters want to admit these things. When this dream sequence breaks, it will be because one of the characters accepts the harsh reality that they cannot have the happy ending they want.

That's enough justification for the dream sequence in my book.

[Xelbiuj]

Does he? *goes to check* Oh, right. Then I have two questions.
1) where he hell is Julio Scoundrel?!

Not showing up because he would die when the villains attack the wedding of course!

2) what exactly does Elan know about V`s love life and where from? As I recall, it was a surprise to everyone but Haley to learn that V was married in "No Cure for Paladin Blues" arc. And V didn`t share the details of vir "vacation" with anyone.

No idea, maybe V stumbled in and is apart of the hallucination now. This could be very telling. Or Is may just be a contribution from Haley.

[zimmerwald1915]

Fourth thought: POPE HAT
'Cause people keep saying it...

Malack is wearing a "mitre".

[Sir_Leorik]

Well that was unexpected.

And also confirms that Elan at least is contributing to the illusion, not just Roy.

But how much is Elan contributing? Is anyone besides me bothered that Elan's mother was referred to as "Elan's Mother" by Malack? I'm pretty sure Elan knows his mom's name... Unless Elan is even more childlike than we realize. Very small children don't really understand that their parents have names other than "Mommy" or "Daddy"; is it possible that Elan really doesn't know his "Mommy's" given name?

[The Pilgrim]

Probably not. Just like it doesn't mean that Sir Francis, the Linear Guild, and the Empress of Blood are also in the room. It just means the OotS is imagining V in their vision.

Yes, the problem is that nobody in the OOTS besides V knows Inkyrius - they know she is married, but don't know how her husband looks like.

[Alandrius]

Long-time lurker first-time poster registering now because this comic is so *SO* good. Anyway, I thought I'd post some rampant speculation on what might happen next, as I believe to be the custom on these forums. :)

I suspect that Vaarsuvius may save The Order, but not in the way that might have been first predicted (using his/her magic). When The Order eventually realise that the last several years of their lives (at least to them - we have no idea how much real time has passed yet) have been nothing but delusions, they will likely be incredibly emotionally scarred.

Now, Vaarsuvius has just been through an incredibly emotional ordeal of his/her own; realising the unintended consequences of the Familicide spell. However, he/she now seems to have come to terms with it (at least to the point that he/she is no longer sobbing inconsolably on a dungeon floor). I wonder whether this makes V the perfect person to talk The Order through their traumatic experience, and perhaps give V the opportunity to come clean at the same time.

Of course, I'll admit that this all hinges on V somehow reaching The Order, noticing the runes and understanding their function without getting trapped by them himself/herself. I'm no master of D&D rules, but since V has access to 8th level spells (power word stun), might he/she have access to Mind Blank? Would that even be helpful?

Just a couple of my random thoughts, and I fully expect to have been ninja'd by people either in this thread or previous ones.

[Sir_Leorik]

'Cause people keep saying it...

Malack is wearing a "mitre".

Also Durkon and Malack are wearing "vestments" not "dresses".

[Chaotic Queen]

Wait, if this is obviously Elan's dream, wouldn't he know his own mother's name?

[Zubrowka74]

Also, how is this not funny? Empress in a tutu and Elan's Mother both made me laugh, which means that it at least is funny to some people. The comic might not advance the plot, but it *is* interesting and funny.

You beat me to it. You can also add the kids in the the second panel : "You have to be a wizard so the party's balanced."

Some people wouldn't even recognize funny if it hit them in the head with an ashtray as big as a f*#!ing big brick.

[WalterKovacs]

It does seem to be a shared dream, as even though it does seem that at various times someone takes the 'lead', so Roy's desires involve destroying Xykon, and such, while Elan wants everyone to have a romantic happy ending, even the baddies, everyone has their touches. The prenuptial is probably Haley's contribution for example. This means a few things:

a) Belkar 'wants' to die. Either the Oracle has convinced him he must die, and thus Belkar does not think he can escape his fate, or he has reached another character growth part where the happiest ending he can hope for is to die in battle and have at least some people remember him as a hero.

b) If other people enter the trap and become part of the shared world, that could be why we are 'staying' in the illusion/enchantment/whatever. Elan and Nale duke it out for 'creative control'. If the trap is powerful enough to even effect intelligent undead, it could be interesting to see what Vampire Durkon's "desires" are. An extended dreamworld struggle between the two parties could be quite interesting, and provide a nice climax to the story, instead of just having them fight it out while trying to bypass traps and get to the gate first.

[Shale]

Given that it's Elan? I wouldn't rule out him knowing his own mother's name, but I also wouldn't say it's likely.

[Sir_Leorik]

Hey
Hey Rich
It's an illusion, I think we all get it
Can we actually move on or is it going to be relevant somehow to the main plot

Character development and plot are not mutually exclusive elements of a story. Also we got to see the Empress of Blood as a bridesmaid. That is comedy gold!


e: Also why is Leaky Wetshaft even in this strip, he was a complete non-character

Because he's an ex-member of the Linear Guild, and illusionary Nale invited him to the illusionary wedding, because Elan thinks that's something Nale would (should?) do when Tarquin remarries "Mommy". (That's also why Sir Francois is a guest, because Elan would definitely invite him to such a wedding. Of course the real Sir Francois would be trying to kill Sabine, the Empress of Blood, Malack, Tarquin, Nale and the various Evil guests...)

[Unkillable_Cat]

I was in that camp that wasn't happy about another speedbump being thrown in the Order's way, and wasn't exactly thrilled about an illusion trapping them like this. I was halfway to bringing out the Monty Python "Get on with it!" bit here, until...

...until I read this strip. Now I see where this is going. We get insights into the characters that, from a narrative perspective, were next to impossible to attain otherwise.

We should be seeing more illusions, at least one Haley-specific and one Belkar-specific (where is Belkar in this one, anyway?) and possibly even a Mr. Scruffy-specific illusion. But now I'm thinking whom else we can throw into this scenario? How many here want to see a V-specific illusion? Or better yet, one from Linear Guild members or even Team Evil?

I'm not bothered about the pacing anymore, this is getting really good. While this could be wrapped up in about 5 more strips, this could go on for as long as 20 more strips, knowing how past OOTS plots have ended. ;)

However... notice that Belkar is absent from all the illusions except as a corpse? I'm guessing it's because HE believes he's dead now because of the first illusion. And the others are also buying into that. I think that's what will break this illusion: Belkar's state of being.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now, Vaarsuvius has just been through an incredibly emotional ordeal of his/her own; realising the unintended consequences of the Familicide spell. However, he/she now seems to have come to terms with it (at least to the point that he/she is no longer sobbing inconsolably on a dungeon floor). I wonder whether this makes V the perfect person to talk The Order through their traumatic experience, and perhaps give V the opportunity to come clean at the same time.
A couple of nitpicks before coming to the main point. The things V recognized as of strip 866 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html) were the intended consequence of Familicide and the implications of that intention. What's more V has a death wish (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html) and is only refraining from killing herself so as to deny the Directors access to her soul - or so she believes.

Beyond that though, an emotionally damaged person is the person least qualified to help others through their own pain.

[Sir_Leorik]

That's the second strip in a row that both isn't real (third if you count 95% of #886) and is also not funny. I hope this boring waste of time doesn't drag on any longer.

You are correct that this strip is an illusion, but how can you say the last panel didn't make you laugh? Sabine and the Empress of Blood as Bridesmaids? (How does she fit into that church?) Kilkil as a best man? (Best Kobold?) Banjo and his girlfriend sitting next to Sir Francois, the paladin Elan used to squire for? Malack wearing a mitre? Elan not knowing the given name of his "Mommy"? How can you be so humorless?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

The way that I see it, this is a quintuple wedding; with Lord Tarquin marrying Jenny sais-quoi, Elan marrying Haley Starshine, Nale marrying Sabine, Roy Greenhilt marrying Celia, and Kilkil marrying the empress.

[SteveMB]

We should be seeing more illusions, at least one Haley-specific and one Belkar-specific (where is Belkar in this one, anyway?) and possibly even a Mr. Scruffy-specific illusion.

My guess is we'll see a few more illusions, with increasingly evident cracks in the fake reality (along the lines of Elan's mother not being referenced by name), until one of them (probably Roy or Haley) realizes what's happening.

[sihnfahl]

where is Belkar in this one, anyway?
If the current page is a continuation of the previous, dead.

[oddtail]

To those complaining this does not advance the main plot at all - you can't be certain of that. Part of telling a story is to show character's attitudes, dreams (usually figuratively, although in this case very literally) and the like. And I can think of a few interesting ways this sequence would lend colour to what happens next or lead to story/character developments. It's hard to predict what exactly will happen, but here's a few I kinda imagine might happen (not all of them, of course), off the top of my head:


1) They wake up and it turns out Belkar has had his moment to shine and/or die when he was defending the party from an attack of some sort. Thus fulfilling Belkar's part of prophecy by killing him off, giving him an opportunity to be a badass solo - which he really enjoys, providing a twist answering complaints "why doesn't he wake up when he dies in the dream sequence" - maybe he wakes up AND dies defending the party, which would make him being dead in the dream sequence ironic.
2) They wake up, and the admittedly sad fact that this was all a ridiculous dream makes them go "screw that, we're going to get a happy ending that's even better than this", thus giving them resolve rather than breaking them, which would be badass and emphasise that they are heroic characters;
3) It does turn out, as someone speculated, that this is actually Taquin's dream. OK, that's not off the top of *my* head, but I really like this idea;
4) The dream sequence might be something they will not just automatically snap out of after being, say, slapped in the face, but they might actually need to overcome their wishful thinking in order to wake up. Which, given how many ridiculous things they are already accepting as plausible in their denial, is actually rather suspenseful - what do they need to see/realise to wake up? If fighting a big monster can be heroic and suspenseful, my personal belief is that fighting an elaborate illusion might be just as heroic and suspenseful. There have been entire stories built around the premise that waking up from a "dream" of some sort is the most heroic thing one could do - Matrix, to name one;


Anyway, there is no reason to assume this is a pointless sequence of strips. While I do not react with fanboyish glee to everything Rich writes, I don't go "WHAT A GREAT TWIST!" at every story development, I think Order of the Stick is an excellent story. OotS has shown that subplots that are only in a character's mind (like Haley getting over her speech impediment) can be resolved very well, so I have faith this will be another good part of the story.

Honestly, have some faith, as well as patience. I'd understand if someone said they were disappointed with the illusion thing AFTER it has been resolved, but this is obviously going somewhere.

[VestigeArcanist]

Definitely Elan's illusion. Banjo is in the front row, to the left.

[oppyu]

And now, about three hours after the strip is posted, my RSS reader finally acknowledges that there's a new strip. Is anyone else having this problem? If you're not having this problem, then what RSS reader are you using?

[gorocz]

Nah, if I remember correctly Word of Giant says the Oracle was referring to the end of the storyline.

Elan doesn't know that, though... When he wakes, he might think his story won't have any other happy ending than this one...

[SteveMB]

Look at the speech in frame #5:

Elan : But what if a bad guy burst in and try to stop the wedding?

Tarquin : Son, YOUR Order of the Stick is the most celebrated band of heroes in three generations.

That "your" sounds a lot suspicious to me!

Tarquin was the only one saying continuously that Elan was the party lead in the OOTS. Elan is not so egocentric to say that about himself and surely Roy wouldn't leave the honor to be the party lead to someone else.

Actually, that argument is a bit self-contradictory -- if real Tarquin treated Elan as if he were the leader of the group, it's not at all suspicious for illusory Tarquin to do the same thing.

Anyway, "your group" could be interpreted as "the group you belong to".

[Anarion]

The Empress of Blood totally makes this particular strip.

That said, wow this is a serous illusion. This does seem to be Elan's perspective, and he's certainly as naive as it gets. Even so, and even discounting the set of bridesmaids as a gag, this series of events strains incredulity. I feel like this illusion is going to collapse in on itself at some point.

[Sir_Leorik]

The way that I see it, this is a quintuple wedding; with Lord Tarquin marrying Jenny sais-quoi, Elan marrying Haley Starshine, Nale marrying Sabine, Roy Greenhilt marrying Celia, and Kilkil marrying the empress.

No, Elan, Nale, Roy and Kilkil are best men/Kobolds, while Haley, Sabine, Celia and the Empress are bridesmaids/monsters. Elan, Nale, Roy and Kilkil are all wearing matching tuxedos, while Haley, Sabine and Celia are wearing matching dresses; that is the custom at most weddings in the United States. (The Empress has squeezed into what may have been a matching dress, once upon a time...) Also note that the bouquet that "Mommy" is holding is a different color from the bouquets that Haley, Sabine, Celia and the Empress are holding.

[Ellye]

I'm really afraid that the Order will lash out in frustration, confusion and anger at whoever wakes them up from the illusion, if they don't each break out on their own.

And I'm afraid that this person will be Belkar. And it might be the last thing that he does.

[tbe878]

Guys . . . Elan's gonna bight it. I'm pretty sure the Giant could pull it off so that Durkon, who knows Elan's plan to change Tarquin and thus conclude basically the only unfinished business our bard has, reveals what Elan would have said. It's a long-shot and I've got a lot of ideas about how it would actually work out, but I feel like we're being set up for Elan getting stabbed in the first panel of the next strip. It wouldn't be a strategically sound move for Nale to go for Elan first, but my bard-senses are telling me that, narratively speaking, this is the next thing to happen.

Yay for speculation!

[GideonWells]

Anyone else getting worried for Elan here? Maybe I'm still paranoid by how close we got to Belkar's "breathing his last" and the apparent imminent fulfillment of Dorukan returning home posthumously.

Would Elan being killed in the middle of this illusion count as a happy ending for him?

[tbe878]

Elan doesn't know that, though... When he wakes, he might think his story won't have any other happy ending than this one...

That's a good point; the effect of the vision may just be that Elan becomes uncertain about his fate. I'm not certain that the prophecy played enough of a role in his thinking to justify the Giant going out of his way to dissuade him of it, though.

[Rakoa]

I'm probably not the first one to say this, but Malack as the priest killed me.

[Sir_Leorik]

Anyway, this runes seems the perfect defense: giving your enemy everything they wanted.

True, your enemy will live out a fantasy life where all their dreams come true... right up until you stab them in the sternum, or allow them to die of thirst!

[Sir_Leorik]

Guys . . . Elan's gonna bight it.

I'd be very worried for Elan, if I knew what that word meant! :smallcool:

[Forikroder]

Anyone else getting worried for Elan here? Maybe I'm still paranoid by how close we got to Belkar's "breathing his last" and the apparent imminent fulfillment of Dorukan returning home posthumously.

Would Elan being killed in the middle of this illusion count as a happy ending for him?

if you died knowing your friends are about to be killed, the love of your life is alone, your father is evil and your brother too, your mother is depressed and alone and you failed in your quest to save the world

would you consider that a happy ending?

[Morgath]

You will have to excuse any discussion I will have missed, as I do not read nor post to these forums regularly.

I haven't read any pros and cons to the ideas of this illusion or delusion effecting the whole party or each individual member, so if I've missed anything important others have said, please inform me.

My personal interpretation until other facts present themselves, is that each member of OOtS is each is viewing their own fantasy This individual fantasy may be influenced by their knowledge of others beliefs to make it compatible and believable in their fantasies, but the gestalt view in comic no 887 is a sum of the general fantasies of the whole rather than an individual narrative by each member. There are of course details that could point that way, but I think that that can be explained by the shared goals and common viewpoints that the party has. I would need additional evidence.

The Belkar thing is a telling point in any group narrative. How would he cope with being dead? And considering that in this shared narrative he would not be able (seemingly because of his past life status) to interact with the group, how would he deal with the change? The few people I have seen who have addressed this seem to think that he would be in some sort of chaotic evil afterlife, stabbing people for fun. Good point, and if Rich puts up such a comic I would not doubt even my doubting, because it's plausible, But it doesn't take into account the evidence regarding Belkar's death being just an illusion never mind it being a group one. Besides, it doesn't really take into account his change via old man to his present equilibrium. Would the New Belkar really want to be dead after all the work?

My personal belief is that the first fantasy was a Roy one only. The second was a group one, showing some snapshots of the whole. This third one is wholly Elans. And yes, I believe it constitutes a happy ending, if only for him.

This leaves the actual ending an open book, and while it might not in actuality a real happy ending for Elan, it fits the bill for the Oracle.

Thoughts?

[Xenrei]

Ha! Great comic, Giant! I love how Leeky Windstaff and Sir Francois got invited to the wedding. I fear for the safety of the Order however, I wonder what will happen when they snap out of it... :smalleek:

[GideonWells]

if you died knowing your friends are about to be killed, the love of your life is alone, your father is evil and your brother too, your mother is depressed and alone and you failed in your quest to save the world

would you consider that a happy ending?

That's thing. When is the "ending"? Elan wouldn't find out until he is in the after life and effectively out of the story. It isn't like the Oracle hasn't been known to twist things.

[Liliet]

Does he? *goes to check* Oh, right. Then I have two questions.
1) where he hell is Julio Scoundrel?!

Not showing up because he would die when the villains attack the wedding of course!
Oh, right. Elan still remembers the reason Julio Scroundrel didn`t want to ever see him again, and to him this is serious. Too bad )=


2) what exactly does Elan know about V`s love life and where from? As I recall, it was a surprise to everyone but Haley to learn that V was married in "No Cure for Paladin Blues" arc. And V didn`t share the details of vir "vacation" with anyone.

No idea, maybe V stumbled in and is apart of the hallucination now. This could be very telling. Or Is may just be a contribution from Haley.
If V is a part of the hallucination, then the next strips are going to be VERY interesting. BTW, would be a great way to reveal V`s misadventures of at least their consequences to the rest of the party: through a shared illusion.

If it`s Haley, then I guess V has confided in her more than I thought. Has she seen a portrait, heard a description or actually been to V`s home? (last part not likely: as I remember, V hasn`t been home for longer than Haley hasn`t been a part of a Thieves` Guild) I`d really love to learn more about their friendship.

[Komodo]

No speculation here, just wanting to say:

1) this is a beautiful strip, even though I find the purple filter rather annoying. Fankids, the empress, lizard in a mitre, Sabine in of all things a dress...all these are funny and excellent.
2) the presence of Sir What's-His-Face will only confuse those who haven't read the books yet (I will buy them...soon...)
3) I am curious to see just how this will connect back to the main plot. I love character studies and development, but I've always been a bit skeptical of the use of imagine spots to cover them. The giant hasn't let us down yet, though, so we'll see...
4) Before this is all said and done, I expect to see Imaginary Belkar rising again and ascending to imaginary godhood. That is all.

[St Fan]

Okay, I must say one thing: the Empress of Blood as a bridesmaid really cracked me up!

[Ikialev]

Character development and plot are not mutually exclusive elements of a story. Also we got to see the Empress of Blood as a bridesmaid. That is comedy gold!

Except this is literally non-development, since everything is a hugboxy illusion and we still can't even reach to conclusion on if it's collective or just Roy's. The visual joke, while kinda funny, is on the what, 4th page of this diversion? With such sparse update schedule, I just don't think it's a good course for the comic. I could of course be wrong and this will become really important, but for now I have no reasons to believe that.
Also, the previous page was a spiral which usually signifies the illusion ending, so this page just looks kind of hamfisted unless there's going to be a series of spirals. Which would mean another 10 pages of this.

Unless this is the ending. Rich, are you dying? :smallfrown:

[MeanMrsMustard]

While we're on the subject of brilliant headgear, Elan's Mother has a tankard-shaped hair clip.

[Heksefatter]

The Empress of Blood looks awesome in this. Stylish. Classy.

[Burner28]

My personal belief is that the first fantasy was a Roy one only. The second was a group one, showing some snapshots of the whole. This third one is wholly Elans. And yes, I believe it constitutes a happy ending, if only for him.

This leaves the actual ending an open book, and while it might not in actuality a real happy ending for Elan, it fits the bill for the Oracle.

Thoughts?

I don't agree, considering that there was no actual ending. This is merely an event that happened soehwre between the middle and the end of the story.

[Oakianus]

I'm probably not the first one to say this, but Malack as the priest killed me.

Durkon, is that you?

(Too soon?)

:(

[Jay R]

Is anyone besides me bothered that Elan's mother was referred to as "Elan's Mother" by Malack?

Not me. This isn't really happening. I don't believe that the scenes in #887 actually occurred in a spiral; that's just how they were presented to us, to evoke the swirly eyes of the illusion. For the same reason, I think the phrase "Elan's Mother" was used to make clear to us, the audience, just who she was. (Also, it was a funny reference to the fact that players of D&D often don't remember the names of the NPCs, even when they are family or close friends.)


The way that I see it, this is a quintuple wedding; with Lord Tarquin marrying Jenny sais-quoi, Elan marrying Haley Starshine, Nale marrying Sabine, Roy Greenhilt marrying Celia, and Kilkil marrying the empress.

Only Elan's Mother is wearing a bridal gown. The other ladies are wearing what (in America at least) are bridesmaid dresses. If they were all getting married, they would all dress in white.


1) where he hell is Julio Scoundrel?!

Besides the fact that Julio specifically told Elan he would not want to meet him again, for reasons of genre-savviness, I expect that Julio subscribes to the Pappy Maverick philosophy:

"Son, stay clear of weddings because one of them is liable to be your own."

[Snails]

Hey
Hey Rich
It's an illusion, I think we all get it
Can we actually move on or is it going to be relevant somehow to the main plot


This is relevant to understanding Elan's character arc, and Elan's arc is likely to be the key to Tarquin's and Nale's fate.

If Elan's mother turns out to be important to the main plot, then this comic would need to be re-evaluated in that light.

[Forikroder]

That's thing. When is the "ending"? Elan wouldn't find out until he is in the after life and effectively out of the story. It isn't like the Oracle hasn't been known to twist things.

a happy ending, that means at the end of the story, Elan will be happy

if at any point theres more strips, he hasnt had his ending yet

[Kish]

That's thing. When is the "ending"?
This is one of those questions that answers itself, like, "What color is white?" or, "What temperature is 100 degrees Celsius?"

[Snails]

Didn't Tarquin once mention that bard should rule the world as they are masters of the narrative structure? I wonder if something similar is occurring within the illusion. Everyone in the OotS has hopes and dreams, but Elan is best suited to giving them a coherent pseudo-life as a bard. As a result he's the conductor leading the orchestra.

Interesting idea. With a sky high Charisma, lots of creativity, and someone who wears his emotions on his sleeve, being trapped in the illusion could easily shift more and more towards Elanland.

I would note that a number of the characters do not seem quite pleased with the nuptials, so Elan's personal preferences have not taken complete control.

[rgrekejin]

My two takeaway thoughts -

1. Who in the group of four that is presently hallucinating actually knows Inkyrius enough to have a semi-accurate mental image of her to insert her into this scene?

2. V looks pretty feminine here. Granted, that's only showing us what at least one person in the hallucinating group thinks about V's gender, but the group does include Haley, the one member of the order who we have any reason to suspect may know V's gender.

[JSSheridan]

And now, about three hours after the strip is posted, my RSS reader finally acknowledges that there's a new strip. Is anyone else having this problem? If you're not having this problem, then what RSS reader are you using?

I've noticed that too. If instead of showing every strip in the RSS feed, it only displayed the last five updates, it might perform better.

[Oakianus]

a happy ending, that means at the end of the story, Elan will be happy

if at any point theres more strips, he hasnt had his ending yet

I love that this post has comprised roughly 30% of the last two discussion threads on the comic. I mean, it obviously needs saying.

Also, I can barely even begin to wrap my head around complaining that all we're getting is deep insights into the psychology of the characters, as though that somehow doesn't matter in and of itself. Yes, we're not sure who is dreaming what exactly (though the 'shared illusion' hypothesis is becoming more likely) but we're clearly getting to see thoughts that would be nigh impossible to express in any other fashion to this degree of depth.

The characters matter. Their thoughts matter. Who they are as people matters. In point of fact, it's practically the only thing that matters, because if you don't have characters with some depth and believability, with real hopes and dreams and a rich inner world that is usually only hinted at in the periphery, then nothing else matters.

I don't think it would rankle me so much if it weren't for the serialization. We're seeing each page of a story as it gets cranked out, and we're in the middle of a scene. Anyone who thinks they know how much value these scenes have to both the short-term and long-term arcs are either The Giant or deluded.

[Reddish Mage]

You will have to excuse any discussion I will have missed, as I do not read nor post to these forums regularly.

I haven't read any pros and cons to the ideas of this illusion or delusion effecting the whole party or each individual member, so if I've missed anything important others have said, please inform me.

Would the New Belkar really want to be dead after all the work?

My personal belief is that the first fantasy was a Roy one only. The second was a group one, showing some snapshots of the whole. This third one is wholly Elans. And yes, I believe it constitutes a happy ending, if only for him.

This leaves the actual ending an open book, and while it might not in actuality a real happy ending for Elan, it fits the bill for the Oracle.

Thoughts?

1. Regarding whether its individual threads or a gestalt, we have yet to conclude. My opinion is it is a gestalt as individual fantasies take more strips, dragging things a bit, and other people's fantasies are not necessarily as fun as this illusion thread.

2. It's been discussed in many threads and numerous posters have made these points regarding Belkar are: 1. Belkar has shown some regret and recognition of his immorality in several strips recently, while the Order still sees him as a menace 2. Belkar is unlikely to be raised by the party, especially post-final battle, and likely doesn't see a place for himself after the battle. 3. Consequently, being dead and written out of the happy ending is consistent with the entire parties view of things, including Belkar's.

3. The strips as written are consistent with a gestalt view, and your explanation here shows how complicated the individual fantasy view would be in telling the story (Elan's version of the Xykon battle should be different or even non-existent, why doesn't Xykon regret his evil ways and go get ice cream? Why don't the Azurites and Goblins create a bination-state?)

4. Elan's question to the oracle is "will this story have a happy ending" and the answer is "for you-at least." The illusion is not the story referred to.

[Morgath]

I don't agree, considering that there was no actual ending. This is merely an event that happened soehwre between the middle and the end of the story.

Depends on what you, and Elan, views as an happy ending. In this fantasy it seemed to serve as an ending, at least to him, and who are we to argue with his definition of happiness?

[Kish]

Depends on what you, and Elan, views as an happy ending. In this fantasy it seemed to serve as an ending, at least to him, and who are we to argue with his definition of happiness?
I'm Kish.

As for who you are, you'll have to be the one to say that.

[Stiletto]

I love it!

Keep us on our toes, Giant!

[brionl]

Yes, the problem is that nobody in the OOTS besides V knows Inkyrius - they know she is married, but don't know how her husband looks like.

Haley already knew that Vaarsuvius was married when the Order had that discussion. I consider it pretty likely that she has met Inky and knows what he/she/it looks like.

[King of Nowhere]

hahaha, this was so ridiculous!
Still, I wonder what's the story purpose of being shown this. maybe something wrong will happen in the illusion and will make them figure out the truth? Maybe there will be some important bits of character development? Can't wiat to see

[[sWc]Konman]

okay, Elan is going to realize here that things are going to well. Disbelief should start to occur in the next couple of comics, not only for plot, but for pacing.

[eaglewingz]

Rich, are you dying? :

We all are, Friend. We all are.

[Kish]

With such sparse update schedule, I just don't think it's a good course for the comic.
I suspect Rich is philosophically opposed to rushing the story because of the update schedule, and I believe he is correct if he is.

[VanFanel]

First I thought it was Roy getting married, then I thought it was Elan.

So did I. Well played Giant!

[Millennium]

Except this is literally non-development, since everything is a hugboxy illusion and we still can't even reach to conclusion on if it's collective or just Roy's.
It's more exposition than development, in that it reveals something about the current state of the characters -what they would call happy endings- rather than changing that state. But I don't think that can just be dismissed as trivial. You can't meaningfully develop something that isn't first exposed, and while there isn't much in this comic that we didn't already know, there are a few hints.

One could argue that this is all stuff that should have been exposed bit by bit over the course of the series, rather than devoting a few entire strips to it. But that doesn't mean the comic is moving in a bad direction. Quite the opposite, in fact: it would mean that the comic is setting up to fix a bad direction that it had already taken.

[brionl]

Guys . . . Elan's gonna bight it.

So you're worried that he is going to become a loop or slack section of rope? Or a curve in the shoreline of a lake or sea forming an open bay?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bight

[St Fan]

Except this is literally non-development, since everything is a hugboxy illusion and we still can't even reach to conclusion on if it's collective or just Roy's. The visual joke, while kinda funny, is on the what, 4th page of this diversion? With such sparse update schedule, I just don't think it's a good course for the comic. I could of course be wrong and this will become really important, but for now I have no reasons to believe that.
Also, the previous page was a spiral which usually signifies the illusion ending, so this page just looks kind of hamfisted unless there's going to be a series of spirals. Which would mean another 10 pages of this.

Unless this is the ending. Rich, are you dying? :smallfrown:

Sparse update schedule for whom? You?

Complaining that the author isn't wrapping up any storyline fast enough simply because this is an online comic with about 1 update a week is both short-sighted and greedy. You're basically asking for the storytelling to decrease in quality in exchange for a faster-paced plot.

Rich is free to develop his story at the exact pace he want. If the story requires 10 pages focusing on the illusion world to wrap this plotline, then it's his choice and you have absolutely no say about it. It's a free webcomic, after all.

Given that the readership is faithful enough to have waited for 3 months following Rich's injury without complaining, I doubt the actual story pace is a problem at all for most of the forumites.

The Order of the Stick will take as long as the Giant feel like is needed to complete. And when it'll be over, you'll surely be bemoaning not getting any more new comics, even if slow-paced and only 1 time a week. In my book, the longer it take to get to its conclusion, the better.

[symirel]

After 887 I was all ready to join the "sigh, when are we getting back to the action" crew. But after 888, I've seen the light, purple though it may be. This strip was genius. Between the amazing insights into the characters, the opportunity to see how fan favorites like Tarquin would act in this unreasonable and implausible situation, Celia showing up as both lawyer and guest, the hilarious Empress of Blood cameo, the incredibly cute getup on V, I just don't even know where to start with how good this strip was.

If you're bored of the illusion strips, take a break and come back later. But I think Rich is totally on the right track to play them out as he is, and the laziness of saying "this is just an illusion, who cares, none of it is real" is exactly why. If we had all the illusion strips in front of us at once, how many people would just skim them, saying "blah blah not real whatever"? I'm happy to have the opportunity to really enjoy this strip, because upon close reading, it's awesome. And it wouldn't have worked on the same level, with the same gravitas, without the setup of the prior strips. Great job as usual, Giant.

[Reltzik]

How is Thog not ruining the wedding in some chaotic-stupid way? Wishful thinking only goes so far!

[fwiffo]

I agree with people. Lack of Belkar is very suspicious. This seems to all-Elan illusion, not at all tied to anything else. And he has the old adversary Linear Guild being a happy part of process, including the members who left a while ago.

And yet he has no place for Belkar?! Sure, Roy might be fed up with Belkar and has no problems with Belkar being dead; but what is Belkar doing not being there in Elan's happy vision?

[Caivs]

This was...marvelous, Rich.

[SaintRidley]

I don't think it's meant to be funny, but poignant. The order, especially Roy, is still in denial concerning Durkon's death, and this dream shows all the happy endings the party will never see.

Durkon is dead and his friendship with Malack sundered.

Elan's father is a mass-murdering tyrant.

Roy, at this point, has little chance to win a one-on-one fight with Xykon.

And none of the characters want to admit these things. When this dream sequence breaks, it will be because one of the characters accepts the harsh reality that they cannot have the happy ending they want.

That's enough justification for the dream sequence in my book.

Well said. I'm really enjoying this sequence, and I really look forward to seeing Rich's commentary on it in the print book.

[canpinter]

There defiantly has to be some significant time passing in the real world, otherwise the trap would be useless.

[chopswil2]

maybe some creature is observing their responses to "what they want most" to determine their true intent?

[Xelbiuj]

I agree with people. Lack of Belkar is very suspicious. This seems to all-Elan illusion, not at all tied to anything else. And he has the old adversary Linear Guild being a happy part of process, including the members who left a while ago.

And yet he has no place for Belkar?! Sure, Roy might be fed up with Belkar and has no problems with Belkar being dead; but what is Belkar doing not being there in Elan's happy vision?

Belkar died during the fight with Xykon, why would he come back? Raise dead?
In Belkar's own paraphrased words, if the afterlife is better why accept the revive when they're just going to punish you anyways?

Several of the panels on the previous comic were almost certainly not Elan's.
Who is to say other events haven't transpired? Rich is only showing us this* wedding but they could have all lived a lifetime in . . .hours?

[LordRahl6]

I'll have to agree that this strip belongs to Elan, (if not the entire illusion/enchantment?) because its full wish fullfilment along Elan's character atributes and story. That being said it will never happen. The two diametrically opposed parents reuniting, yeah right.:smalltongue:

[Doctor Awkward]

Just wanted to pop by and talk about the last few strips. I personally am really enjoying them because I love getting character insight, but I could totally understand why some people aren't.
It's frustrating to see the characters totally at the mercy of their own desires. And given that we, the audience, know that none of it is real, we know that nothing that happens actually matters. I can all but guarantee that had this illusion mini-arc been released in a huge burst of strips that shows us the resolution, every single person would probably say it was one of their favorite moments of the entire comic. But the nature of the sparse update schedule makes it difficult to stay emotionally invested.
So moving on...

I know Rich really doesn't like rules speculation when it comes to the comic... but I do:
We know that Girard is a very high level illusionist, and in Lord Shojo's own words (panel 7) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) relies upon them entirely to protect his gate.
A lot of people speculated that it was some sort of enchantment (due to the swirly eyes). To that I would like to point out two things:
1) Each (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html) and every (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) time a person has been enchanted the eyes have been yellow. Here they are purple. except here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), thanks for blowing up my theory Giant :smalltongue: My explanation for this is that since Yukyuk's skin and natural eye color is yellow, the Giant needed to make it distinctive to be clear that he is enchanted. Anyway...
2) One of the subsets of the illusion school is phantasms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#phantasm), which manifest only in the minds of the victims, and this effect is perfectly and completely valid within the rules. So this trap was a pretty impessive display of system knowledge to me.

While this could easily be a homebrewed epic spell, there is actually a 9th level spell, Solipism, in the Spell Compendium which is a phantasm and causes the victim to believe that everything the entire world is an illusion, and could easily be refluffed to function exactly like what is happening.
I'm curious as to the Giant's inspiration for this trap, because I think it would be a neat effect to subject a real party too.

There is also a lot of speculation as to whether or not this is a shared illusion or what each person individually perceives. A lot of things that happen have left me scratching my head in that regard too, and I was left wondering simply: why?

If Rich wanted to, he could easily show us which character is visualizing which scenario by having a single close-up panel of that person in the beginning of each strip. It would spoil nothing since the audience already knows this is an illusion. For the moment I'm assuming there is a good reason he doesn't do this, but it still has me wondering.
The point of this mini-arc is to provide insight to character motivation, so what do you gain from a narrative standpoint by not making it clear who is imagining what? The only conclusion I can reach is that nothing would be gained, and the reason he doesn't make it clear that these are individual scenarios is because it is one big group illusion.

[Liliet]

I agree with people. Lack of Belkar is very suspicious. This seems to all-Elan illusion, not at all tied to anything else. And he has the old adversary Linear Guild being a happy part of process, including the members who left a while ago.

And yet he has no place for Belkar?! Sure, Roy might be fed up with Belkar and has no problems with Belkar being dead; but what is Belkar doing not being there in Elan's happy vision?
If it`s all-Elan illusion why are there little children who want to be fighters as they grow up? Why would Elan have thought of that? Even if his worldview included children dreaming to become adventurers as something desirable, wouldn`t they want to become bards just like him? It`s clearly Roy`s bit of wish fulfillment.



1) Each (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html) and every (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) time a person has been enchanted the eyes have been yellow. Here they are purple. except here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), thanks for blowing up my theory Giant :smalltongue: My explanation for this is that since Yukyuk's skin and natural eye color is yellow, the Giant needed to make it distinctive to be clear that he is enchanted.

No, it`s just the individual magic color of each magic user. Both times you showed yellow eyes were Nale doing the enchantment, and his magic is yellow. V`s magic is pink, and Girard`s magic is purple.


While this could easily be a homebrewed epic spell, there is actually a 9th level spell, Solipism, in the Spell Compendium which is a phantasm and causes the victim to believe that everything the entire world is an illusion, and could easily be refluffed to function exactly like what is happening.
I don`t think illusion spells can be refluffed just like that. Making a person believe that everything around is just Matrix is one thing, and completely taking them our of real world is another. These effects can`t be of the same level, if I understand D&D magic rules correctly.


I'm curious as to the Giant's inspiration for this trap, because I think it would be a neat effect to subject a real party too.
This effect is nothing new, see here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine). And I`m not sure about that. It could be neat, or it could cause a lot of frustration. You`d need a lot of talent and luck (or skill and experience, choose whichever you like) to pull if off correctly.


There is also a lot of speculation as to whether or not this is a shared illusion or what each person individually perceives. A lot of things that happen have left me scratching my head in that regard too, and I was left wondering simply: why?

If Rich wanted to, he could easily show us which character is visualizing which scenario by having a single close-up panel of that person in the beginning of each strip. It would spoil nothing since the audience already knows this is an illusion. For the moment I'm assuming there is a good reason he doesn't do this, but it still has me wondering.
The point of this mini-arc is to provide insight to character motivation, so what do you gain from a narrative standpoint by not making it clear who is imagining what? The only conclusion I can reach is that nothing would be gained, and the reason he doesn't make it clear that these are individual scenarios is because it is one big group illusion.
I think Rich has given enough in-comic hints that this is a group illusion. Especially in this one, where Roy gets fighter fanboys and fangirls and Elan gets his parents` wedding in one continuity.

[SaintRidley]

I don`t think illusion spells can be refluffed just like that. Making a person believe that everything around is just Matrix is one thing, and completely taking them our of real world is another. These effects can`t be of the same level, if I understand D&D magic rules correctly.


Solipsism makes you think that your reality is the Matrix and you need to get out. Microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) puts you in the Matrix without a clue you're in the Matrix (which matches up pretty well to what we see here, and is an effect of the same level.

What we're seeing here is probably an Epic and improved version of Microcosm.

But, yeah, this is all very clearly a shared illusion going on. And it is awesome.

[Holy_Knight]

My two takeaway thoughts -

1. Who in the group of four that is presently hallucinating actually knows Inkyrius enough to have a semi-accurate mental image of her to insert her into this scene?
While it was necessary given the strip layout anyway, keep in mind that we're seeing Inkyrius only from behind. You know how in a dream you sometimes "see" a person, but their face is not distinct? It's possible that's what's going on here. They have enough information about V's mate to imagine "Inkyrius" being there, even without knowing eactly what he or she looks like.



2. V looks pretty feminine here. Granted, that's only showing us what at least one person in the hallucinating group thinks about V's gender, but the group does include Haley, the one member of the order who we have any reason to suspect may know V's gender.
Actually, it's most likely that that's Roy's perception of Vaarsuvius, since he's the one encountering V in that scene.


I love that this post has comprised roughly 30% of the last two discussion threads on the comic. I mean, it obviously needs saying.

Also, I can barely even begin to wrap my head around complaining that all we're getting is deep insights into the psychology of the characters, as though that somehow doesn't matter in and of itself. Yes, we're not sure who is dreaming what exactly (though the 'shared illusion' hypothesis is becoming more likely) but we're clearly getting to see thoughts that would be nigh impossible to express in any other fashion to this degree of depth.

The characters matter. Their thoughts matter. Who they are as people matters. In point of fact, it's practically the only thing that matters, because if you don't have characters with some depth and believability, with real hopes and dreams and a rich inner world that is usually only hinted at in the periphery, then nothing else matters.

I don't think it would rankle me so much if it weren't for the serialization. We're seeing each page of a story as it gets cranked out, and we're in the middle of a scene. Anyone who thinks they know how much value these scenes have to both the short-term and long-term arcs are either The Giant or deluded.
Well said.


So Elan would rather that his parents get back together than marry Haley? Huh.
I don't think it's a matter of preference, but rather a matter of timing. Part of Elan's character has always been desire for a real and stable family--he grew up without a father, had been abandoned by several people throughout his life, and latched onto Roy as a surrogate big brother/older male figure that he looks up to, all before falling in love with Haley. So, that desire gets "fulfilled" first, because that has been one of his defining features for longer. He probably has every intention and expectation that he and Haley will get married, but his parental issues just come first in the order of events.

To add some other thoughts, like many have said, I absolutely love the Empress of Blood as a bridesmaid! I laugh every time I see her there, especially since she has that smile on her face! Mr. and Mrs. Banjo are a nice touch as well. One thing I wonder is what was actually supposed to be contained in the pre-nuptial agreement, and whether that might actually be relevant to the plot or to breaking out of the illusion somehow. It's interesting to think about what Elan would imagine his father wanting/needing to sign before getting married--especially since I wouldn't normally expect him to think about a pre-nup at all.

[Morgath]

1. Regarding whether its individual threads or a gestalt, we have yet to conclude. My opinion is it is a gestalt as individual fantasies take more strips, dragging things a bit, and other people's fantasies are not necessarily as fun as this illusion thread.

2. It's been discussed in many threads and numerous posters have made these points regarding Belkar are: 1. Belkar has shown some regret and recognition of his immorality in several strips recently, while the Order still sees him as a menace 2. Belkar is unlikely to be raised by the party, especially post-final battle, and likely doesn't see a place for himself after the battle. 3. Consequently, being dead and written out of the happy ending is consistent with the entire parties view of things, including Belkar's.

3. The strips as written are consistent with a gestalt view, and your explanation here shows how complicated the individual fantasy view would be in telling the story (Elan's version of the Xykon battle should be different or even non-existent, why doesn't Xykon regret his evil ways and go get ice cream? Why don't the Azurites and Goblins create a bination-state?)/QUOTE]

It's nice to hear a decent summery that is easy for me to work with. I guessed that it was hard to tell if it's a combined dream or illusion. I find it a little hard to tell the truth of a combined illusion without seeing Belkars viewpoint however. Maybe other comics will fill the gaps.

[QUOTE=Reddish Mage;15254010]4. Elan's question to the oracle is "will this story have a happy ending" and the answer is "for you-at least." The illusion is not the story referred to.

This is probably the only reason I stick to the idea that each fantasy is individual. It fulfils Elans prophecy without conflicting with others prophecies, which is well in the line of the way the Oracle works. Why should he(it/her) stick to the actual truth and not a vision) Each prophecy has been twisted to the extreme, Conciser Durkon's Why not fulfil a fantasy if it serves its purpose and is true (for a given value of)

In the end it is a matter for interpretation, and your word is a good as mine. Am interested in the possibilities however, and you make some good points.

[LuPuWei]

Didn't see the last panel coming :smallsmile: But having seen it, Awwwww...

[Shale]

This is probably the only reason I stick to the idea that each fantasy is individual. It fulfils Elans prophecy without conflicting with others prophecies, which is well in the line of the way the Oracle works. Why should he(it/her) stick to the actual truth and not a vision) Each prophecy has been twisted to the extreme, Conciser Durkon's Why not fulfil a fantasy if it serves its purpose and is true (for a given value of)

We have the Giant's word, in the "War and XPs" commentary, that the "ending" the Oracle was talking about is the end of the comic. Which this is (hopefully!) not.

[The Troubadour]

Aw, man. An entire strip just to show that Eland DID have his happy ending and now none of the protagonists are safe.
Friggin' overly-literal-Oracle.

[Kish]

To that I would like to point out two things:
1) Each (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html) and every (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) time a person has been enchanted the eyes have been yellow. Here they are purple. except here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), thanks for blowing up my theory Giant :smalltongue: My explanation for this is that since Yukyuk's skin and natural eye color is yellow, the Giant needed to make it distinctive to be clear that he is enchanted. Anyway...

Try, "Yellow is Nale's magic color, when someone is enchanted by him their eyes are yellow; purple is Vaarsuvius' magic color, and if you'd linked Vaarsuvius hypnotizing the young black dragon and Yukyuk you could make as good, or as bad, a case that enchanted people always have purple eyes."

[Morgath]

We have the Giant's word, in the "War and XPs" commentary, that the "ending" the Oracle was talking about is the end of the comic. Which this is (hopefully!) not.

I think that I will have to read that again to get it in some kind of context. I have an interpretation that something in a vision from the Oracle mgiht not be completely kosher and yet completely true with the way Rich has presented the truth so far. It is hard to tell how to see things, and he has shown a way of telling the truth and still misleading the audience, so am not saying I disbelieve the word of god, just I know it doesn't always go to plan as it were.

[Kish]

I do not remember Rich spelling out that by "ending" he meant the ending.

However, I wonder how many times he'd have to use the word "ending" for it to be valid. "By ending, I mean the ending, by which I mean the ending, by which I mean the ending, but not the ending of this sentence because this is the sentence that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends..."

[Sunken Valley]

Purple is Girard's Colour

Here he hides the gate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

Here he trolls Soon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)

Purple is his colour.

[Shale]

I do not remember Rich spelling out that by "ending" he meant the ending.

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."

[JackRackham]

So, this strip is OBVIOUSLY Elan's illusion. Good God. But that really just means it was pulled from Elan's empty, pretty little head. Just like the first strip seems to have been pulled from Roy's head. What I'm wondering is if they can all see these same hallucinations. If so, I wonder if Elan's ludicrous imaginings might be WTF enough to clue the rest of them in that something's wrong? Or if someone else's might not be dramatically appropriate, cluing Elan in to what's going on?

One way or another, they've got to get out of this somehow, right?

[Morgath]

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."
That is more definite. So am probably wrong. Maybe Elan will cling on to his happy illusionary fantasy despite the evidence. Who knows in his mind?

[otakuryoga]

Damn You!
Damn you all, you really did it!
.
.
.
you threw up a curve i wasn't expecting

[JackRackham]

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."

Unless THIS is the end of the entire shebang :smalleek:

EDIT: I know Rich has said there would be X more books. I know this is not the ending. I just wanted to be dramatic...or did I? Dun Dun DUN! No, really.

[Kish]

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."
While I remain mystified by the necessity, under the circumstances, I am grateful for the existence.

[rgrekejin]

Actually, it's most likely that that's Roy's perception of Vaarsuvius, since he's the one encountering V in that scene.

Yeah, I know. I don't really think we're actually getting any sort of useful information about V's gender here. However, since I personally have always read V as female, I do enjoy the fact that for at least one panel, she gets to appear slightly more feminine.

[sam79]

"Several people dreaming about the end of the story" does not equal "the end of the story."

Just as "several people dreaming about a psychotic halfling dying" is not the same as "a psychotic halfling dying."

[Shale]

While I remain mystified by the necessity, under the circumstances, I am grateful for the existence.

That describes so, so much of this forum.

[Bron Baraz]

I have no idea where all the angst about A) the pacing and B) the idea that the comic is ending is coming from.

There's an old Scots saying my grandma always used when we didn't like the look of something she was cooking: "fools and bairns shouldn't see things half done". So it is with webcomics :smalltongue:

[jukehero461]

This is complete and utter speculation on my part, but I think Roy may be catching on...

[RolyPoly]

For all the people wondering why different characters show up (V, the linear guild, the empress of blood)
I'm guessing that this is evidence of a shared vision, where the spell-trap is doing it's best to accomadate everyone.

Also, it could be having an enchanting (the spell type) influence on those caught in it's grasp, which is why everyone is "happy" with this version of events, even if it makes little sense with regards to their normal personality or history. That's why even though this is an Elan-centric fantasy, we still get the intro with it focused on Roy.

Which makes me think that at some point, the spell will start to fail because it can't juggle everyone's desires all at once.


Edit: And yes, the Empress of Blood is frelling adorable.

Yeah, I think that's the weak point of the trap. It's already filtered out Belkar's contribution (too bloody?), and now Roy is starting to look a bit doubtful at this turn of events in the last panel. Also, "Elan's Mum" lacks a certain authenticity as a phrase in a wedding ceremony.

It would be a triumph for Elan's inner idiot if it's the impossibility of reconciling his sweet but inane world view with the more realistic dreams of the rest of the Order that wrecks the illusion.

[Snails]

My guess is we'll see a few more illusions, with increasingly evident cracks in the fake reality (along the lines of Elan's mother not being referenced by name), until one of them (probably Roy or Haley) realizes what's happening.

I hope so!

The Dream Trap is a wonderful story telling device that allows the author to show the same characters from a really different point of view, showing funny where we normally see serious and vice versa.

There is a reason both the Trouble With Tribbles and Mirror, Mirror are beloved by hard core Trekkies. A sparingly used different way to advance the characters, a seemingly very offbeat approach has the potential for greatness.

[Octopusapult]

I no longer believe each member of the order is experiencing a different illusion.

Roy is being a celebrated fighter in this one, while in my opinion if it were Elan's specific Illusion, he'd be seen more as "Elan's best friend."

Also, I doubt that Elan would dream for Belkar to be dead, Roy I don't doubt for a moment would have Belkars death a happy moment, but it doesn't strike me for Elan.

This has got to be a shared illusion.

[David Argall]

OK. It's a nice strip, but it is still just a waste of space.

It's a dream. We can neither say something has happened, or will happen. Nor can we say it didn't or won't. Is there character development? Maybe, maybe not. Any such point will have to be confirmed in future strips, which means they do not need to be mentioned here at all. We get maybe a scene in the future where Elan maybe says he saw his parents remarried and now considers that a goal to cause/prevent. But we will need to have that scene anyway and the wedding scene is just not needed.
In the middle of a book, the meaningless strip is no big thing, but the current book is already the longest yet, and needs ending, not padding. This is the sort of page that belongs in the printed & expanded version.

[eyeprofet]

By the time I get around to reading the forums, someone has usually already posted what I would have contributed making a reply from me unnecessary.

In this instance I feel most are forgetting a very important fact in regards to the current strips, which is: this part of the arc (and future book) must come to an end eventually. While others have been conscious of how long the Order's adventures on the Western Continent have been taking, I think most have assumed it would end with the destruction of Girard's gate.

While each book has bonus material and extra strips included, if we compare the number of online strips in each book we see that this current arc is already longer than any of the previous ones.

Books:______________________Strips:____(Total):
Dungeon Crawlin' Fools..............#001 - 121 (120)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues......#121 - 301 (180)
War and XPs...........................#302 - 484 (182)
Don't Split the Party.................#485 - 672 (187)
Time on Western Continent........#673 - 887 (214)

I believe that strip #887 (Happy Ending) is most likely the end of the current arc/book. It provides a great stopping point, and allows for a change in the story's tempo starting with #888 (Dream Wedding). The story can slow back down while in this illusionary world and provide us with insight into the Order that we normally would not have time to stop for given the previous strips' pacing. It also reminds me a great deal of Roy's time in afterlife.

Now I of course could have it all wrong and The Giant may very well be planning on having a massive book that does in fact end with resolution of Girard's gate. I do know that I will enjoy finding out either way.

[rgrekejin]

By the time I get around to reading the forums, someone has usually already posted what I would have contributed making a reply from me unnecessary.

...sorry, but someone else has already posted about this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15226849&postcount=37) :smalltongue:

[Oakianus]

Eyeprofet - this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14939266&postcount=7) has it a bit more accurately sussed out as far as pages are concerned.

And really, like any good art, it's worth just letting it end when it's over. Though the idea that it ends in the middle of the illusion and picks up again is certainly possible, I'm still in the camp that thinks we're just going to have an epic book on our hands. :P

ETA: NIIIINJAAAAAS! *shakes fist*

[Smolder]

Purple is Girard's Colour

Here he hides the gate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

Here he trolls Soon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)

Purple is his colour.

"Girard Draketooth hid his desert gate behind an endless series of illusions..."

That wording is truly more ominous now that we're inside an endless illusion.

[SaintRidley]

I believe that strip #887 (Happy Ending) is most likely the end of the current arc/book. It provides a great stopping point, and allows for a change in the story's tempo starting with #888 (Dream Wedding). The story can slow back down while in this illusionary world and provide us with insight into the Order that we normally would not have time to stop for given the previous strips' pacing. It also reminds me a great deal of Roy's time in afterlife.

Now I of course could have it all wrong and The Giant may very well be planning on having a massive book that does in fact end with resolution of Girard's gate. I do know that I will enjoy finding out either way.

Rich tends to signal the end of the book in the strip he ends it on.

I'm still betting 895, give or take up to five strips, as our ending of the book. Time for this illusion to get broken, time for our heroes to realize just what has happened and how long they've been out, and enough time to realize they're completely screwed, ending (I think) on a cliffhanger out in the real world.

[RolyPoly]

OK. It's a nice strip, but it is still just a waste of space.

It's a dream. We can neither say something has happened, or will happen. Nor can we say it didn't or won't. Is there character development? Maybe, maybe not. Any such point will have to be confirmed in future strips, which means they do not need to be mentioned here at all. We get maybe a scene in the future where Elan maybe says he saw his parents remarried and now considers that a goal to cause/prevent. But we will need to have that scene anyway and the wedding scene is just not needed.
In the middle of a book, the meaningless strip is no big thing, but the current book is already the longest yet, and needs ending, not padding. This is the sort of page that belongs in the printed & expanded version.

Not that character development doesn't advance the plot, but Roy's fantasy-feat against Xykon may have real-world consequences. In his own words, "I have an idea to fight Xykon ... or more of a memory". I think that actually was a memory of his combat training while he was dead and living in paradise. His memories of that time are dim, but it's likely that his memories of this illusion will be crystal clear, if and when he needs to repeat the feat for real.

Maybe.

[Morgath]

By the time I get around to reading the forums, someone has usually already posted what I would have contributed making a reply from me unnecessary.

In this instance I feel most are forgetting a very important fact in regards to the current strips, which is: this part of the arc (and future book) must come to an end eventually. While others have been conscious of how long the Order's adventures on the Western Continent have been taking, I think most have assumed it would end with the destruction of Girard's gate.

While each book has bonus material and extra strips included, if we compare the number of online strips in each book we see that this current arc is already longer than any of the previous ones.

Books:______________________Strips:____(Total):
Dungeon Crawlin' Fools..............#001 - 121 (120)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues......#121 - 301 (180)
War and XPs...........................#302 - 484 (182)
Don't Split the Party.................#485 - 672 (187)
Time on Western Continent........#673 - 887 (214)

I believe that strip #887 (Happy Ending) is most likely the end of the current arc/book. It provides a great stopping point, and allows for a change in the story's tempo starting with #888 (Dream Wedding). The story can slow back down while in this illusionary world and provide us with insight into the Order that we normally would not have time to stop for given the previous strips' pacing. It also reminds me a great deal of Roy's time in afterlife.

Now I of course could have it all wrong and The Giant may very well be planning on having a massive book that does in fact end with resolution of Girard's gate. I do know that I will enjoy finding out either way.

I actually agree with this Idea, only that it has to be a bitter-sweet ending to end up the book and make the viewer wishing for more. So one more obvious fantasy, from one other characters viewpoint.

And then after a strip or so, a crashing to earth, and a segue in to the next book by showing the harsh reality of the situation.

The PC's caught in a trap that is obviously drawn and no obvious way out would add a bit of drama without causing too many problems with the storyline? could work if done well.

[Jordan Cat]

I really didn't see that coming, I had a big laugh. I feel like I should have seen it coming.

V looks very feminine in this strip.

[TheBST]

So, how perfect can life in Illusionland get before they smell a rat? Or are they all just boned until V rescues them.

That's the problem with these Lotus-Eater type deals: a fantasy were all your worst fears come true would probably be more believable.

[Bulldog Psion]

The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."

Well, he has a happy ending. Is there anything in that statement that says the end of the Order of the Stick saga and the happy ending have to be at the same time? :smallwink:

Edit: I realize that it is strongly implied. However, it can be argued semantically that it is the same thing as "when the saga is over, Belkar will have a cloak." That is quite true, even if he's buried wrapped in it.

Double Edit: if Elan never snaps out of this fantasy, as someone suggested, then this could be his happy ending even if the comic continues for another 888 strips.

Triple Edit: I, personally, think the Giant is just putting this in to build suspense. But there's always that little seed of doubt... :smallbiggrin:

[ManuelSacha]

So... V is a girl in Elan's mind.
Huh.

PS: is that Leeky Windstaff in the last panel, bottom right?