(Spoilers) I guess they don't like Belkar that much.

[Sylthia]

I find it funny that the party in the illusion never bothered to Raise Belkar after he gets killed by pseudo-Xykon. He soul wasn't bound or anything, so I can't think of a reason for not raising him, beside him being an evil little bugger.

[sam79]

beside him being an evil little bugger.

...who is a potential threat to them, should he get out of control. And who has not given any of the Order much reason to love him. And whose 'character growth' has been seen through by (at least) Roy and Haley.

In Snips Snails and Dragon's Tales there's a story in which the 4th Edition Belakr gets killed. His fourth edition team mates also don't bother to raise him, basically because they lack a compelling reason to expend the time and effort to do so.

[Sunken Valley]

Belker can't be raised. He's an elemental so, like Celia, if Belker were ever to die, Belker could not be raised. Not that Derkon is a high enough Cleric to cast 9th level spells meaning the entire elemental Ordar of the Stick (Belker, Derkon, Halay, Varsuvius, Elin and Roy) die for good when they die.Sorry.

[Cizak]

I can't think of a reason for not raising him,

Maybe because he's potentially the most dangerous living creature to society beside Xykon and Redcloak? Argueable, of course. But if he wasn't leashed by Roy, he would probably be up at 8-9 kilonazis. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) Based on a Kickstarter reward and Origin of PCs, just 2-3 kilonazis involves massmurder and threatening cities with arson.

[Heksefatter]

Belker can't be raised. He's an elemental so, like Celia, if Belker were ever to die, Belker could not be raised. Not that Derkon is a high enough Cleric to cast 9th level spells meaning the entire elemental Ordar of the Stick (Belker, Derkon, Halay, Varsuvius, Elin and Roy) die for good when they die.Sorry.

Don't you mean an Outsider? After all, he's a sexy shoeless god of war. And they can't be raised either.

[ellindsey]

Depending on how negative levels work, it's possible he can't be raised. Raise Dead causes you to lose a level when you come back, and someone who died at level one can't be raised. Belkar just got drained by two vampires nearly to death. Depending on how negative levels count, he could be considered level one for the purposes of Raise Dead, making it impossible to raise him.

[Sylthia]

I hadn't thought of the Con loss, but did Belkar lose any levels, or just get his blood drained. I think the rule is you lose a level, unless you're level one, where you lose one point of Con. I'm not sure how drained levels figure into that.

I could see Roy and Haley not wanting to raise Belkar because of his evil tendencies and V not caring, but Elan and Durkon strike me as the type to value loyalty to their teammates, even Belkar.

[Kish]

Sidestepping the whole "negative levels totally, unhinted at in the D&D rules, put someone beyond the reach of the most powerful resurrection spell" debate.

Elan and Durkon? You mean, the two people who expressed (at different times) the opinion that Belkar should be left in Lord Shojo's prison?

[Sylthia]

Sidestepping the whole "negative levels totally, unhinted at in the D&D rules, put someone beyond the reach of the most powerful resurrection spell" debate.

Elan and Durkon? You mean, the two people who expressed (at different times) the opinion that Belkar should be left in Lord Shojo's prison?

Yeah, but Elan's the type who likes to see people in prison, rather than killed.

Durkon is Lawful to a fault, he wanted Belker to serve his sentence for a law he had broken. At the time Belker died, he was helping the party in combat. (But then again, he might also be happy that Belker died in honorable combat.)

[Osiris]

Wait, the Order aren't elementals, I don't think that's possible, and it would give LA (if it did), and V has already cast 7th level spells since the Opposite Duel with Z in Tarquin's quarters. I see that they are humans, a dwarf, and a halfling, accompanied by an elf. They are not elementals.:smallannoyed:

[Sylthia]

Wait, the Order aren't elementals, I don't think that's possible, and it would give LA (if it did), and V has already cast 7th level spells since the Opposite Duel with Z in Tarquin's quarters. I see that they are humans, a dwarf, and a halfling, accompanied by an elf. They are not elementals.:smallannoyed:

I think someone forgot the blue text for that one.

[Kish]

I think he was making fun of the fact that, instead of talking about Belkar, the OotS member whose name is spelled with an A, you're talking about a belker--a member of a particular elemental race.

Note the similar misspellings for the names of rest of the Order in his post.

[asdflove]

Yeah, but Elan's the type who likes to see people in prison, rather than killed.

Durkon is Lawful to a fault, he wanted Belker to serve his sentence for a law he had broken. At the time Belker died, he was helping the party in combat. (But then again, he might also be happy that Belker died in honorable combat.)

Uh... It's Belkar not Belker...

[Sylthia]

Mia culpa on the misspelling.

[hoff]

In the illusion they did not raise him
In the illusion Durkon is not a vampire

So the party assumed he was lying and so they did not raise him, it doesn't make sense but every illusion like that must have some cracks to allow the characters to break free.

[Vinsfeld]

I think Belkar deserves a Raise Dead spell as a reward for all this time on the Order. I mean, he helped Haley in Azure city. He saved Hinjo's life. He found the way to the Draketooth Ziggurat/Pyramid. He (with a little help from V) saved Elan from death (on the first book)....

We all know he's a little bastard, he actually helped. Not the most helpful member either. But I think he deserves a Raise Dead (and maybe another Mark of Justice).

[Mike Havran]

Yes, I also think they don't like Belkar that much.

Seriously, why raise him? He's a danger to everybody around him, and after the happy ending, there will be a shortage of acceptable targets to throw him at.

[ben-zayb]

I wonder why the OotS didn't just raise Girard and the other illusionists to find where the gate is...

Oh wait.

[angry_bear]

A vampire bite doesn't drain levels, it drains constitution each turn. Plus you can raise a level 1 character, but they take constitution damage rather than suffer level loss.

[oppyu]

And in other obvious news, it turns out Haley likes gold, Elan is naive and Durkon talks funny.

Belkar is a mean, stupid, sociopathic, mass-murdering little halfling who goes out of his way to make everyone around him either miserable or dead, and has no emotional ties to anyone not named Mr. Scruffy. The Order is not going to bother raising him.

[TheBST]

Leaving Belkar also helps Illusionworld retain some internal consistency while giving the characters everything they wanted.

When 'Durkon' shows up again in #887, the illusions can just say 'Oh Belkar was lieing, as usual. I'm fine, Xykon's dead, who wants ice cream?'. If Belkar was sharing the same illusion as the others, he'd be the first to call bullhonk on Durkon being suddenly alive again and potentially shatter the whole illusion, or at least plant the seed of doubt.

[Mutant Sheep]

I think Belkar deserves a Raise Dead spell as a reward for all this time on the Order. I mean, he helped Haley in Azure city. He saved Hinjo's life. He found the way to the Draketooth Ziggurat/Pyramid. He (with a little help from V) saved Elan from death (on the first book)....

We all know he's a little bastard, he actually helped. Not the most helpful member either. But I think he deserves a Raise Dead (and maybe another Mark of Justice).Well...


Yes, I also think they don't like Belkar that much.

Seriously, why raise him? He's a danger to everybody around him, and after the happy ending, there will be a shortage of acceptable targets to throw him at.This, basically. Also, I think their "reward" for him working with them is not killing the evil SOB after his numerous unjustified murders.

[skim172]

I think it's pretty well established (#666 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)) that Haley and Roy don't like Belkar even a little and they're more or less just waiting for the day when he dies and he's no longer their problem. Hell, Roy was about to kill him just because he didn't like what Belkar was saying. They don't want Belkar alive and look forward to his death.

Roy and Haley don't care about Belkar in the least, except to make sure he dies - Elan probably typifies "Good" in a more pure sense, in that he generally cares of Belkar as a living being, which is why he can at least feel sad at the guy's burial. Haley only cares about Elan and Roy doesn't even hang around - and to be frank, Elan only cares about Belkar in the same sense he cares about a living creature - he doesn't much like him. Elan won't execute Nale, but he probably wouldn't resurrect him, either. Haley and Roy would kill Nale if they got the chance. Belkar, in their eyes, is no better than Nale, with the one exception that he's useful to them. So long as he's useful, they'll tolerate him, as long as they're assured that he's got a ticking clock clasped around his neck to guarantee his death once he stops being useful.

Which I think actually is an interesting moral question:
If Belkar didn't have a Sword of Damocles hanging over his head, what would Haley and Roy do? Would they kill him themselves? Hand him over to law enforcement? And is there, from an intentions perspective, a moral difference between killing a guy and waiting for him to die? Either case, you were going to kill him, just the latter was more convenient.

[Dr.Epic]

And who has not given any of the Order much reason to love him.

Yeah, not like he ever saved one of their lives or went back to rescue someone when he could have easily escaped a hostile situation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)

[Bulldog Psion]

Yeah, not like he ever saved one of their lives or went back to rescue someone when he could have easily escaped a hostile situation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)

Well put. :smallsmile:

[rgrekejin]

Mia culpa on the misspelling.

...you did that on purpose, didn't you? If not, it's mea culpa, not mia culpa.

In all seriousness, though, since it is becoming readily more apparent that this is some kind of shared illusion, maybe the fact that Belkar never got raised is actually Belkar's contribution to the illusion. Perhaps in some deep, dark corner of his psyche that he doesn't bother to look at much, Belkar really does have some inkling of what a truly hideous bastard he is, and understands that death may be what he ultimately deserves.

Probably not, but maybe.

[Sylthia]

...you did that on purpose, didn't you? If not, it's mea culpa, not mia culpa.

In all seriousness, though, since it is becoming readily more apparent that this is some kind of shared illusion, maybe the fact that Belkar never got raised is actually Belkar's contribution to the illusion. Perhaps in some deep, dark corner of his psyche that he doesn't bother to look at much, Belkar really does have some inkling of what a truly hideous bastard he is, and understands that death may be what he ultimately deserves.

Probably not, but maybe.

Should I have used blue text? Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.

I wonder if this will be a step for his development, real or faked.

[Aldrakan]

Raising a murderous psychopath and letting him go his merry way is evil. It doesn't matter if he's helped you out, you can't owe him the lives of the people you know he's going to kill, because they're not yours to give out.

Even if Belkar really was loyal to the Order and cared about them, he'd still be an evil monster who's a danger to everyone else around him. Just because someone's nice to you doesn't give them a pass on how they treat everyone else.

[Caex]

Random supposition: maybe Belkar will wind up loving afterlife in the Abyss. Maybe it will be constant non-stop combat and slaughter with beings that make satisfying sounds when you kill them, and he will refuse to be raised. 'twould explain why he stays dead, even if the Order tries to raise him out of loyalty or gratitude.

[Ghost Nappa]

The illusion could have had Illusion!Durkon say he can't raise Belkar.
1) Roy, Haley, and Belkar don't know that much about Spell-Casting and can't exactly call his bluff.
1.5) Illusion!V is there to back him up if Elan tries to say otherwise.
2) Nobody was thrilled with Belkar. They might have valued him as a companion but he's a lot of effort to work with at times and resurrecting him might be high-cost, low-reward.
3) Belkar might have survivor's guilt and doesn't think he should be raised for his deeds. Alternatively, the simple fact that he got a memorial and they all SHOWED UP to see it (even if they weren't all thrilled and interested to be there) might have been all he wanted. They respected him enough to pay their respects at least.
3.5) Belkar might have been unwilling to be resurrected. Maybe the afterlife is just as much fun for him as it was for Roy in his tenure.

The only thing is clear is that a really strong wish-fulfillment illusion hit Belkar, Roy, Haley, and Elan at some point after comic #884 but before the end of #886 and they're still stuck in it.

[Vinsfeld]

Yeah, not like he ever saved one of their lives or went back to rescue someone when he could have easily escaped a hostile situation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)

And also this. He's proven his loyalty to the party countless times. (this is just of them) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html)

EDIT: And he also save Gannji and Enor (even though no one knows)

[Kornaki]

And also this. He's proven his loyalty to the party countless times. (this is just of them) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html)


The one where three panels later Belkar says he should have taken the deal and gone Team Evil? Yeah I think he really ingratiated himself to Haley there

[mikelibrarian]

Two members of the Order have died defending Belkar. Durkon recently and Roy pressed his attack on Xykon when he realized that the path that the zombie dragon was taking would have lead to Belkar's Mark of Justice going off. Everyone in the Order of the Stick hates Belkar, but they won't even passively let him die. Raising him isapparently another story.

I predict that an upcoming comic will have Belkar having the time of his afterlife stabbing things in Pandemonium or the Abyss. I vote Pandemonium.

[Kornaki]

Two members of the Order have died defending Belkar. Durkon recently and Roy pressed his attack on Xykon when he realized that the path that the zombie dragon was taking would have lead to Belkar's Mark of Justice going off. Everyone in the Order of the Stick hates Belkar, but they won't even passively let him die. Raising him isapparently another story.


Roy did nothing of the sort

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html

He jumped on because he was the only one able to break the damage resistance. The mark of justice explicitly didn't trigger on undead (earlier in the battle Belkar was killing ghouls) so Roy had no reason to be concerned that Belkar's mark would go off against Xykon

[Sylthia]

Roy did nothing of the sort

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html

He jumped on because he was the only one able to break the damage resistance. The mark of justice explicitly didn't trigger on undead (earlier in the battle Belkar was killing ghouls) so Roy had no reason to be concerned that Belkar's mark would go off against Xykon

I think he meant that if Roy got to far away from the city, the mark would go off from going beyond the one-mile-away-from-Roy limit.

[sam79]

Yeah, not like he ever saved one of their lives or went back to rescue someone when he could have easily escaped a hostile situation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)

But when Haley and Roy discuss the fact that Belkar has been 'Employee of the Year' recently in strip 666, they come (correctly) to the conclusion that it he is faking it, possbily as part of some ploy. Belkar's helpful actions have earned him not love and trust from his colleagues, but distrust and greater suspicion. Roy further points out in this strip that his plan at that point is to "run out the clock", which is obviously incompatible with the idea of raising him after he dies.

So the question is has Belkar done anything since strip 666 that 1) would cause Roy to think that the character growth in Belkar is real or 2) was so significant and important and valuable for the 'Forces of Good' as to cause Roy to ignore his evil character and various crimes, and therefore change his mind about leaving the little psyho dead when his time runs out. I'd say no to both, but obviously you may have a different conclusion.

[Cizak]

And also this. He's proven his loyalty to the party countless times. (this is just of them) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html)

:belkar: What Bluff check? I was gonna take the deal, right up until the point where I remembered how much I was looking forward to flinging an angry housecat in someone's soft and unprotected face.

:haley: Listen, Belkar, I'm still proud of you picking our side. Especially since Xykon probably is strong enough to have removed the Mark of Justice from you, too.

:belkar: CRAP! I completely didn't think of that! That totally changes everything! Man, do you think it's too late to change my answer?

[oppyu]

... people seem to be forgetting that Belkar is a chaotic evil sociopathic serial killer. If Hannibal Lecter dies from a heart attack, you do not revive him, you celebrate his death and pray you never meet anyone like him again.

[skim172]

... people seem to be forgetting that Belkar is a chaotic evil sociopathic serial killer. If Hannibal Lecter dies from a heart attack, you do not revive him, you celebrate his death and pray you never meet anyone like him again.

But, if Hannibal Lecter isn't dying of a heart attack, do you kill him yourself? Is it moral to not try to help him? Is it ethical/lawful? Lecter got a court hearing and was confined to prison by the legal system - is it lawful and/or moral to just watch him die without providing aid?

The counterpoint here is #69 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html).
:elan:: "I didn't save you so we could interrogate you. I saved you because I'm the Good twin, not the Neutral twin."

Nale is also a psychotic, evil serial killer. But Elan believes he's doing the Good thing, by showing mercy. Are mercy and compassion fundamental attributes of Good? Is Elan responsible for the murders Nale has committed since, for not letting him die over the pit?

[Tragak]

But, if Hannibal Lecter isn't dying of a heart attack, do you kill him yourself? Is it moral to not try to help him? Is it ethical/lawful? Lecter got a court hearing and was confined to prison by the legal system - is it lawful and/or moral to just watch him die without providing aid?

The counterpoint here is #69 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html).
:elan:: "I didn't save you so we could interrogate you. I saved you because I'm the Good twin, not the Neutral twin."

Nale is also a psychotic, evil serial killer. But Elan believes he's doing the Good thing, by showing mercy. Are mercy and compassion fundamental attributes of Good? Is Elan responsible for the murders Nale has committed since, for not letting him die over the pit? Yes, but almost everybody else has stopped talking about when Roy convinced himself that Belkar was lying and tried to kill them, they're talking about the Order thinking that Belkar is already dead.

[Kish]

I think "are the Order members contributing to the dream right to dream that Belkar stays dead" is not a question that will get an operable consensus.

A better question is, "Is it believable that the Order members contributing to the dream are leaving Belkar dead?" And--bar Belkar himself--I would say yes, definitely.

[Aolbain]

I hope this is they way they would react if Belkar dies in "real life"

[Mike Havran]

Is Elan responsible for the murders Nale has committed since, for not letting him die over the pit?

No. He captured him and had him go to the prison. It's not Elan's fault that Nale escaped.

[Belkar<3]

Belker can't be raised. He's an elemental so, like Celia, if Belker were ever to die, Belker could not be raised. Not that Derkon is a high enough Cleric to cast 9th level spells meaning the entire elemental Ordar of the Stick (Belker, Derkon, Halay, Varsuvius, Elin and Roy) die for good when they die.Sorry.

Huh? He might be an outsider, but he definitely is not an elemental. Durkon is a high enough cleric to rez, he rezzed Roy.

They don't like Belkar that much, but some theories speculate that because it might be a shared dream, Belkar could be imagining Durkon un-vampired and Belkar dead in his place. I don't find that likely, but there you go.

[rodneyAnonymous]

It's a joke about "belker" being a type of air elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/belker.htm).

[Steward]

I think Belkar would like being a demon. If the cosmology in this universe is like "Fiendish Codex 1", Belkar could rise through ranks from being a dretch to a balor in no time (eternity?)

[oppyu]

Nale is also a psychotic, evil serial killer. But Elan believes he's doing the Good thing, by showing mercy. Are mercy and compassion fundamental attributes of Good? Is Elan responsible for the murders Nale has committed since, for not letting him die over the pit?
Partially, yes. He permitted Nale to live when his life was in his hands knowing that Nale was a very bad person who was ok with murdering people, and Nale went on to murder 20-30 civilians in Cliffport (I forget the number, but it's somewhere around there) when a less good, more pragmatic man may have let the sociopathic murderer die.

Good isn't always the right path. When a threat to society on the level of Belkar, Nale or Thog is on the verge of death, the right thing to do is... help them along. Utilitarianism and all.

[Quantum Glass]

Elan and Haley seem a bit upset in the Spiral montage. I doubt they're experiencing grief, but they probably regret that it had to end that way.

Roy, however, seems happy with the outcome.

Meanwhile, of course, the New Linear Guild and the Empress are forgiven. Such is life.

[jogiff]

Random supposition: maybe Belkar will wind up loving afterlife in the Abyss. Maybe it will be constant non-stop combat and slaughter with beings that make satisfying sounds when you kill them, and he will refuse to be raised. 'twould explain why he stays dead, even if the Order tries to raise him out of loyalty or gratitude.

Belkar has commented that Lord Shojo probably doesn't want to be raised because he's "kicking back in whatever afterlife chaotic good people get (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html)." Belkar loves killing things more than anything else, a chaotic evil afterlife seems like his cup of tea, assuming that he can find some CR appropriate encounters and avoid the stuff that's too big even for him.

[Phantom Thief]

I think people are making too big of a deal about him "deserving a trial" and not letting an man die for no reason. Belkar has had a trial. He has had several. He illegally broke out of Tarquins prison, and the Sapphire Guards, and his first chronological appearance was breaking out of a prison. He is wanted in several jurisdictions, he has mentioned at one point, and has most likely been conviced of murder several times over. I'm pretty sure he has the death penalty warranted on him by some nation, so while vigilante killing is maybe not a good idea, even lawful good people have a good reason to not raise him. Not to mention, he's only being restrained from his murderous impulses by the fact that he gets people to legitimately kill while adventuring. Once Xykon is gone, there is no telling what will happen to him without a target. Besides, there's no point reviving Belkar when he at best was given maybe a couple more months to live by the prophecy. As the Order trusts these prophecies as always true, they're going to assume Belkar is doomed to be dead forever anyways.

[Cizak]

Partially, yes. He permitted Nale to live when his life was in his hands knowing that Nale was a very bad person who was ok with murdering people, and Nale went on to murder 20-30 civilians in Cliffport (I forget the number, but it's somewhere around there) when a less good, more pragmatic man may have let the sociopathic murderer die.

Good isn't always the right path. When a threat to society on the level of Belkar, Nale or Thog is on the verge of death, the right thing to do is... help them along. Utilitarianism and all.

You can't hold Elan responsible for Nale's murders because he handed over Nale to the authorities. You just can't.

[Sylthia]

You can't hold Elan responsible for Nale's murders because he handed over Nale to the authorities. You just can't.

That kinda goes into Batman territory where there is a debate as to whether Batman is justified sending villains to Arkham, knowing that they'll just escape and harm more people. Elan is genre savvy enough to know that Nale will escape any mundane prison that he's thrown into.

[Kish]

You can't hold Elan responsible for Nale's murders because he handed over Nale to the authorities. You just can't.
:vaarsuvius: I believe what you mean is that oppyu shouldn't hold Elan responsible for Nale's murders.

[sam79]

Mayday, Mayday! This thread is heading directly towards "Is X morally justified" territory. All hands brace for impact!

[Chad30]

I think people are making too big of a deal about him "deserving a trial" and not letting an man die for no reason. Belkar has had a trial. He has had several. He illegally broke out of Tarquins prison, and the Sapphire Guards, and his first chronological appearance was breaking out of a prison. He is wanted in several jurisdictions, he has mentioned at one point, and has most likely been conviced of murder several times over. I'm pretty sure he has the death penalty warranted on him by some nation, so while vigilante killing is maybe not a good idea, even lawful good people have a good reason to not raise him. Not to mention, he's only being restrained from his murderous impulses by the fact that he gets people to legitimately kill while adventuring. Once Xykon is gone, there is no telling what will happen to him without a target. Besides, there's no point reviving Belkar when he at best was given maybe a couple more months to live by the prophecy. As the Order trusts these prophecies as always true, they're going to assume Belkar is doomed to be dead forever anyways.

I'm pretty sure if he died, and was raised, the prophesy would have already come to pass. Though I agree there's little point in raising him. Even if he's had a legitimate heal realization from Durkon dying for him, it doesn't make him a good person. The reactions in the recent strip seem pretty in character.

[oppyu]

You can't hold Elan responsible for Nale's murders because he handed over Nale to the authorities. You just can't.
Elan's not responsible for Nale's murders, he's partially responsible. Same way Roy is partially responsible for sparing them, and Batman is partially responsible for everyone the Joker's killed. It's not like killing Nale would have been such a big deal, just pretend he's a sleeping goblin.

[The Pilgrim]

I find it funny that the party in the illusion never bothered to Raise Belkar after he gets killed by pseudo-Xykon. He soul wasn't bound or anything, so I can't think of a reason for not raising him, beside him being an evil little bugger.

There is also the 5,000gp worth of diamonds required as Material Component. Quite a dent to pay in order to get back into business a psychopat murderer whose services you no longer require.

And, of course, the fact that Belkar is CON 1 right now, a disability that impedes someone from being raised back from the dead.

[Keeper of Starlight]

Perhaps Belkar feels the same way. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html)

[Phantom Thief]

I'm pretty sure if he died, and was raised, the prophesy would have already come to pass. Though I agree there's little point in raising him. Even if he's had a legitimate heal realization from Durkon dying for him, it doesn't make him a good person. The reactions in the recent strip seem pretty in character.

It did, but the Oracle said to Roy that it was Belkar's last breath EVER. So barring all the theories of how Belkar could circumvent this, Roy would likely assume the obvious one. The cast is genre savvy enough to know that if your dealing with an always right type oracle, trying to cheat your way past a prophecy will end up making things worse. Cheating only works when its outside circumstances that change a prophecy, not a character directly trying to.

[Chad30]

I guess I misunderstood the prophesy then. If it's supposed to be he died for good, bringing him back is likely to make it worse. Like him dying a slower, more painful death or something.

[A Rakish Angel]

But it's Belkar's fantasy as well--if he wanted to live, then the fantasy would have had him being resurrected by someone else. So we're left with an interesting insight into Belkar's mind: he genuinely doesn't want to live.

[gorocz]

He's not their friend, and for the most part, he's as much of a burden as he's a help... Roy doesn't kill him himself, because Belkar is in his team member (and Roy is Lawful), but should they meet in any other circumstance, it'd be just another bad guy....

And because Roy's good, he keeps him close to himself - so he can keep him under control (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) - that's why Belkar's even still in the team (it's a wicked circle). But raising him? Not sure if Durkon would even agree to it (similiar reasons, he's LG too), much less Roy asking for it...

Just because we as readers like him, doesn't mean protagonists like him too. We like him for the same reasons, one we like Xykon - he's funny and badass, but he's a threat to the world, just on a different scale...


But it's Belkar's fantasy as well--if he wanted to live, then the fantasy would have had him being resurrected by someone else. So we're left with an interesting insight into Belkar's mind: he genuinely doesn't want to live.

Well, the problem could be that the protagonists are the only ones who could ever bother with raising him and BELKAR KNOWS IT. He could not possibly believe that anyone would just come and raise him randomly. So if protagonists didn't bother, he wasn't raised.

Also, he could be a bit preoccupied with his afterlife to notice how long has he been dead without gettin raised. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html)

[David Argall]

I guess I misunderstood the prophesy then. If it's supposed to be he died for good, bringing him back is likely to make it worse. Like him dying a slower, more painful death or something.
There are at least 4 Belkar "death" predictions [Savor your next birthday cake, don't fund your retirement, not long for this world, draw last breath]. And while we can lick one or two, we should assume Belkar is leaving the story soon.

[sam79]

There are at least 4 Belkar "death" predictions [Savor your next birthday cake, don't fund your retirement, not long for this world, draw last breath]. And while we can lick one or two, we should assume Belkar is leaving the story soon.

You're absolutely right, but...

Really Really Dead For Real =/= leaving the story. We might get a few flashbacks, perhaps a view of the afterlife. In other words, some posthumous Belakr Comedy Gold!

[The Giant]

Mayday, Mayday! This thread is heading directly towards "Is X morally justified" territory. All hands brace for impact!

Agreed. Keep the thread away from issues of moral responsibility and personal philosophies, or it will get locked.

[Emanick]

You're absolutely right, but...

Really Really Dead For Real =/= leaving the story. We might get a few flashbacks, perhaps a view of the afterlife. In other words, some posthumous Belakr Comedy Gold!

Yeah, this. He could even wind up fighting his part of the larger battle against the Snarl on SnarlWorld, or one of the Outer Planes (against, say, the IFCC). All while literally and permanently dead, depending on how Rich wants to write the plot.

Let's face it, there are a zillion different ways in which Belkar could die without immediately exiting the story. I've never understood why people keep thinking that the Belkster is about to say his permanent farewell to the comic; Rich has pretty clearly made teamwork and the "wholeness" of the Order a major theme of the story, so it's unclear why he would suddenly compromise all that just for the sake of fulfilling a prophecy in an unnecessarily expeditious and simplistic manner.

[Rakoa]

Yeah, this. He could even wind up fighting his part of the larger battle against the Snarl on SnarlWorld, or one of the Outer Planes (against, say, the IFCC). All while literally and permanently dead, depending on how Rich wants to write the plot.

I never thought of it like this, but Afterlife Belkar versus the IFCC is the coolest idea ever.

[SavageWombat]

Do people on the "Looking for Group" forum complain this much about Richard being Evil? Or is this PC-hatred specific to Belkar for some reason?

[ti'esar]

Do people on the "Looking for Group" forum complain this much about Richard being Evil? Or is this PC-hatred specific to Belkar for some reason?

I don't know whether to parse "PC" here as "player character" or "politically correct", but assuming it's the latter, that's really only part of it. A lot of the problem I used to have with Belkar is more that he was just completely static and tended to be the same joke over and over again (the same could be said for Elan, but he had character development much earlier, and I do admit that I find his style of joke much more appealing anyway).

As for the question of whether my (former) dislike of Belkar was specific to him - not at all. I think the "token evil teammate" is a rather stupid and lazy trope overall, and dislike it almost everywhere it appears. In fact, it used to be one of my biggest disappointments that OOTS - which is so much more "professional" than many webcomics - still wound up using this particular cliche.

Of course, as of today I think that Belkar stopped being static a long time ago, and now I actually rather like the guy. Honestly, the speed that he went from irritant to dynamic character is pretty unique.

EDIT: And come to think of it, "political correctness" is the wrong way to describe those moral objections I did have for Belkar (and still do to his archetype), although I'm not sure if I should go into why.

[orrion]

I never thought of it like this, but Afterlife Belkar versus the IFCC is the coolest idea ever.

Given that the IFCC interacts with deities in person (remember one visited Tiamat?) I'd think it safe to say they're pretty far above Belkar's ability to interact with in the afterlife.

[Emanick]

Given that the IFCC interacts with deities in person (remember one visited Tiamat?) I'd think it safe to say they're pretty far above Belkar's ability to interact with in the afterlife.

In one-on-one combat, sure, you're probably right (although I suppose it's possible that their actual importance far outstrips their CR, rare as that is in the Lower Planes). But there are a number of ways in which a high-level PC can successfully "interact" with characters involved in elaborate schemes without directly engaging them, even in Tartarus or wherever Belkar ends up.

Do I think Belkar will end up fighting the plans of the IFCC after dying? No, I think it's a cool but unlikely idea. Still, it's entirely possible, and is just one example of why Rich is in no way bound to ending Belkar's role in the story once he dies.

[Rakoa]

Given that the IFCC interacts with deities in person (remember one visited Tiamat?) I'd think it safe to say they're pretty far above Belkar's ability to interact with in the afterlife.

Of course. By no means do I think he could, I just think it would definitely be cool.

[Kish]

Do people on the "Looking for Group" forum complain this much about Richard being Evil?
I'll take "inappropriate comparisons" for $800, Alex.

[sims796]

My main issue is with Roy, Roy, and especially Roy.

If Belkar is so evil, then why did he not only consider him for a completely personal mission to retrieve his starmetal, but go out of his way to trick Belkar into joining?

Haley also has less of a reason to hate him, because Belkar came back to save her when he had no reason (as far as she's concerned) to do s, and Roy knows this.

I don't accept that whole "I'm making sure he does no wrong, that's why he's with me" bit, either, but the deva does, so I'll let it go.

All I know is that Roy better had helped make that tombstone. For all the trouble Belkar was, Roy still sought him out for help. And at least Belkar never abandoned an ally because "I found him annoying". Not to our immediate knowledge, of course.

[Kish]

And at least Belkar never abandoned an ally because "I found him annoying".
Stabbed, on the other hand...

Couldn't resist. Roy's shift in attitude toward Belkar is indeed disturbing and inappropriate; from my viewpoint, inevitably so because it started at a disturbing and inappropriate place ("I'll just keep him on a very long and flexible leash and treat all the people he slaughters as acceptable losses for my not having to injure my self-image by attacking a halfling who isn't currently attacking me").

[FlawedParadigm]

Y'know...come to think of it...if Belkar were actually to ascend as an actual God of War, he would no longer need to breathe, celebrate birthdays, or fund IRAs. Birthdays and money don't mean much to divinities. Nor are they long for this world, as they tend to dwell on other planes...

Hm...

[sims796]

Stabbed, on the other hand...

Heh, true. Well, he went back to rescue him, so brownie points over Roy in that regard, but Roy refrained from attacking. For now.


Couldn't resist. Roy's shift in attitude toward Belkar is indeed disturbing and inappropriate; from my viewpoint, inevitably so because it started at a disturbing and inappropriate place ("I'll just keep him on a very long and flexible leash and treat all the people he slaughters as acceptable losses for my not having to injure my self-image by attacking a halfling who isn't currently attacking me").

Thank you, you typed it better than I could have.

Roy's been having this "holier-than-thou" attitude (he even entertained the fact that his crap smells better than everyone else in his ghostly days, though I may have absorbed that joke wrong), and while it isn't difficult to be morally superior to Belkar, he isn't above his team the way he thinks he is.

If he's that concerned about starting an unprovoked (with a very loose definition of unprovoked) fight, then cut him loose. Hell, Haley kicked Belkar off the team without a second thought.

Well, until her memory was wiped. That counts as a second thought, I guess.

[ZarDaranth]

The Order wouldn't have raised Belkar because he's honestly not worth raising (to them).

He's a liability wherever they go, he doesn't follow commands consistently (other than being a murderous rampaging jerk, which they could hire Thog to do just as easily. :thog: thog want fudge ripple with sprinkles. Quiet you.). He's a terrible ranger, and he doesn't really fit with the overall "ragtag protagonists saving the world" vibe that the team has. I mean, why throw good gold to save a bad party member?


They could easily hire Enor/Gannji to help them, and they'd get an actual tracker, an actual brute for widespread carnage, and they'd get an average helpfulness that exceeds Belkar. Plus Elan could get Dragon rides.

But as an audience, we love the little Belkster, despite the fact that he's horribly evil, lacking in empathy or sympathy, and is a general sociopathic cretin. (:thog: thog still want fudge ripple with sprinkles. Okay, Thog. You win. )

[Reverent-One]

Stabbed, on the other hand...

Couldn't resist. Roy's shift in attitude toward Belkar is indeed disturbing and inappropriate; from my viewpoint, inevitably so because it started at a disturbing and inappropriate place ("I'll just keep him on a very long and flexible leash and treat all the people he slaughters as acceptable losses for my not having to injure my self-image by attacking a halfling who isn't currently attacking me").

Yes, how egotisical of Roy for having a moral code. Ends justify the means, that's how he should think.

[Morquard]

In all seriousness, though, since it is becoming readily more apparent that this is some kind of shared illusion, maybe the fact that Belkar never got raised is actually Belkar's contribution to the illusion. Perhaps in some deep, dark corner of his psyche that he doesn't bother to look at much, Belkar really does have some inkling of what a truly hideous bastard he is, and understands that death may be what he ultimately deserves.

Probably not, but maybe.
Yes, I mentioned something like this in the main thread too, or the last one. That deep down this is what Belkar wants, without even realising. "All I'm good at is hurting people... what's the point of living with that?" Yes, I know we're talking about Belkar here, and a while ago that would have been silly, but he went through some changes recently.


Which I think actually is an interesting moral question:
If Belkar didn't have a Sword of Damocles hanging over his head, what would Haley and Roy do? Would they kill him themselves? Hand him over to law enforcement? And is there, from an intentions perspective, a moral difference between killing a guy and waiting for him to die? Either case, you were going to kill him, just the latter was more convenient.
*sigh* I can't believe I'm actually saying this... I've been a firm believer in "Belkar is dead. Gone. Not yet, but soon. Don't try to weasel yourself out of the prophecy"

But to be honest this line of thought makes me doubt that. Currently Roy and Haley believe that too, and they act like it. "Ok we don't like him, but whatever, he's not really our problem anymore. We don't even have to go through the trouble of killing him ourselves when we're done. Now let's just make sure we point him into the right direction till then."
But what happens if they wake up one day and realize "Oh damn, the oracle tricked us again, and we won't get rid of him that easily!" ? What then?
Even the Daeva didn't really think that just murdering him in cold blood while he was on the height of his Evilness was a good idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) and he's gotten quite a bit better since then.

Oh trust me I'm not saying he's not evil anymore, he is, but he's getting better.
And I still mainly believe he's gonna die. But that belief has gotten some cracks.

[The Pilgrim]

Do people on the "Looking for Group" forum complain this much about Richard being Evil? Or is this PC-hatred specific to Belkar for some reason?

Different webcomics, different audiences, different expectations.

I mean, I wouldn't complain to find my cheeseburger is made of cheap meat. That's what I'd expect to find in McDonald's. But I don't go to a french bistro to find they have put spam in my coq au vin instead of chicken.

[Kish]

But what happens if they wake up one day and realize "Oh damn, the oracle tricked us again, and we won't get rid of him that easily!" ? What then?

Good question.

I think, short of Belkar actually reforming, Roy and possibly Rich would be painted into a corner: Have a heroic character attack a halfling who isn't attacking him, or accept that Belkar will be causing death and suffering for many years to come.

That said, I'm still sure Belkar's a goner. Possibly he'll die ironically right after Roy decides that he was wrong to look forward to Belkar's death and declares that he will not be trying to get Belkar killed.

[Aolbain]

What I dont understand is why they haven't ditched hem yet (violently if need be). I remember Roy's explanation to the Deva but as far as I see it, the cons of keeping him around outweighs the pros. He haven't really been useful since the battle with the thieves guild.

[Morquard]

Good question.

I think, short of Belkar actually reforming, Roy and possibly Rich would be painted into a corner: Have a heroic character attack a halfling who isn't attacking him, or accept that Belkar will be causing death and suffering for many years to come.

That said, I'm still sure Belkar's a goner. Possibly he'll die ironically right after Roy decides that he was wrong to look forward to Belkar's death and declares that he will not be trying to get Belkar killed.

I wouldn't call it "Rich paints himself into a corner" if that happens. If that happens, then I'm sure Rich had planned it since the prophecy.

What I'm getting at is that Roy and Haley have a choice then. Either they go and murder Belkar themselves or they start believing that Belkar is actually trying to get better.

And yeah, obviously once that happens Belkar gets hit by a meteor.

[sims796]

That said, I'm still sure Belkar's a goner. Possibly he'll die ironically right after Roy decides that he was wrong to look forward to Belkar's death and declares that he will not be trying to get Belkar killed.

And that's my main issue with Roy, that whole "looking forward to his death". If you feel that he's that evil, that vile, then don't "use him". Hell, even if you were (I tend to partner up with evil characters on RPG games out of necessity), that doesn't justify Roy taking in Belkar for clearly personal reasons.

Still, Belkar at least deserved more respect from Roy at his funeral. Whether you liked him or not, he killed your enemies, went for your starmetal on a non-vital quest, rescued your Bard when you decided not to "just because" (when said Bard was also on said personal quest), saved your Rogue when he had no reason too (from their view), amongst other things.

Not saying they need to be best friends forever, but a "good riddance to bad rubbish" would sound pretty messed up coming from Roy.

[Reverent-One]

And that's my main issue with Roy, that whole "looking forward to his death". If you feel that he's that evil, that vile, then don't "use him".

Leaving him with the alternatives of murdering Belkar, or letting Belkar run around and do more evil than he would under Roy's eye. Using him seems like the best option.

[SteveMB]

Still, Belkar at least deserved more respect from Roy at his funeral. Whether you liked him or not, he killed your enemies, went for your starmetal on a non-vital quest, rescued your Bard when you decided not to "just because" (when said Bard was also on said personal quest), saved your Rogue when he had no reason too (from their view), amongst other things.

Also, Belkar in the illusion fell in the line of battle under Roy's leadership. That calls for at least a show of respect, even if he doesn't feel any actual respect.

Another sign of the illusion giving people what they want, with none of reality's "I don't want to do this but I'll suck it up and do it anyway" annoyances.

[sam79]

Also, Belkar in the illusion fell in the line of battle under Roy's leadership. That calls for at least a show of respect, even if he doesn't feel any actual respect.

Agreed, but only to an extent. Roy's view appears to be that anything helpful Belkar does is either a coincidence, under duress or else part of some Evil plot that has yet to come to fruition. He has (IMO) pretty good reasons for thinking like this. In IllusionWorld, one of Belkar's last acts before dying in combat was telling a mean-spirited and hurtful lie about the demise of a trusted colleague and friend, for no apparent reason. Any show of respect on Roy's part would be hypocritical in such circumstances, even though form might demand such a gesture from a 'commanding officer'.

[SteveMB]

Agreed, but only to an extent. Roy's view appears to be that anything helpful Belkar does is either a coincidence, under duress or else part of some Evil plot that has yet to come to fruition. He has (IMO) pretty good reasons for thinking like this. In IllusionWorld, one of Belkar's last acts before dying in combat was telling a mean-spirited and hurtful lie about the demise of a trusted colleague and friend, for no apparent reason. Any show of respect on Roy's part would be hypocritical in such circumstances, even though form might demand such a gesture from a 'commanding officer'.

A valid point. I think it boils down to this part of the sequence being primarily Roy's wish-fulfilment (being rid of the little jerk once and for all) rather than Elan's (Elan would expect Roy to act in a more idealized "father to his men" manner).

[CSeiberlin]

Heh....I thought it was pretty well telegraphed Belkar has a deathwish. As others I believe have pointed out, go back just a few strips (879-880 in particular). I think even if the illusion is in some part consensual the victims still shape their own idealized realities since Elan does some things that I'm not sure would fit in the other's wish fulfillment realities.

Belkar wants to be dead in Durkon's place.

[sam79]

A valid point. I think it boils down to this part of the sequence being primarily Roy's wish-fulfilment (being rid of the little jerk once and for all) rather than Elan's (Elan would expect Roy to act in a more idealized "father to his men" manner).

I'm sure that's the case: Elan seems to be a bigger softy than Roy when it comes to Belkar; after all he's crying at the grave of a psycho who once tried to kill him for XP. Maybe he's just upset about the death of Mr. Scruffy, and doesn't care about the Belkster at all! :smallwink:

[quasit]

Heh....I thought it was pretty well telegraphed Belkar has a deathwish. As others I believe have pointed out, go back just a few strips (879-880 in particular). I think even if the illusion is in some part consensual the victims still shape their own idealized realities since Elan does some things that I'm not sure would fit in the other's wish fulfillment realities.

Belkar wants to be dead in Durkon's place.

+1 to this. To the point that Belkar first reaction upon regaining mobility was freaking about how he was alive, while Durkon died. For him.

[ZarDaranth]

I just realized that from Roy's opinion, if Belkar died after screwing with Roy so much, there's no reason to raise him. Roy was still in disbelief over Belkar's story, so of course it would have that impact for the illusion.

Once Roy sees Belkar wasn't lying, I think his opinion would change.

[Dwy]

I'm guessing that Haley, Elan and Roy just have grown accustomed to the thought that Belkar is dying soon. The indifference shown in the strip as Belkar dies symbolizes that they've given up on him. Not one of them seems to have even thought of trying to keep him alive and fighting for as long as possible.

My prediction is that this attitude, this indifference, is going to be one of the reasons Belkar dies too. I'm willing to guess that when Belkar hits the dust, he'll die like a sad martyr, heroicly... And unecessarily, from a challenge a united Order, that fights together would have beaten without casaulties.

That, is going to be Roy's final leadership lesson, a grudging point of charcater development. Never give up, even if success is impossible (as with Belkar's prophesized death). By that point, the cause of Kraagor's death will most likely be revealed as well, and the plot will reach the final stages, where Roy's new insight truly will be put to the test, as will the loyalty of the Order, will they stay together despite their casaulties unlike the scribbles?

/wild predictions based on the team's attitudes.

Edit: Yes, one of those cases where knowing the prophecy is what makes it come true, in this case because the death of Belkar only was inevitable as long as his teammates assumed so.

[Tanngrisnir]

People seem to think Roy is showing no respect to Belkar what-so-ever, but I do not believe that is correct.

We see Roy leaving Belkar's gravesite, which has clearly been freshly filled, so he either was there for the service and stayed around while the grave was filled in, or he showed up after it. Both of those actions show that he at least paid some respect, deserved or not, to the person who died under his command. If he had no intention of paying a little respect he just simply would not have been there at all. I don't think there is any reason Roy would have been forced to be there.

As a lawful good leader I expect this show of respect to a team member who died under his command, but I'd be disappointed in Roy if he had shown actual grief over Belkar's death.

[Sterling7]

I think a lot of people give Belkar way too much grief. Yeah, there have been countless jokes about him doing evil things- but when it comes down to it, he's been at the party's side, over and over again. Yeah, he's a murderous barbarian loose cannon- which is basically saying he's a typical adventurer in that world. Get over it.

And if you don't feel some grief when a comrade who's fought by your side countless times dies, I don't give a damn about some PH definition of "Good" that qualifies you to be a paladin- you don't fit the definition where it counts.

Personally, I'm in the camp that thinks the illusion includes what Belkar wishes were true- that Durkon was alive in his place and that he was dead and his companions were sorry for his loss.

This is the same guy who eight strips ago said: "Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at." Not, you will note, "Hurting people is what I'm good at"; "the only thing I'm good at." Does that sound like someone who's happy with how he's living his existence?

I swear, some people's definition of "good" and "evil" has less nuance than Miko's.

[oppyu]

I think a lot of people give Belkar way too much grief. Yeah, there have been countless jokes about him doing evil things- but when it comes down to it, he's been at the party's side, over and over again. Yeah, he's a murderous barbarian loose cannon- which is basically saying he's a typical adventurer in that world. Get over it.

And if you don't feel some grief when a comrade who's fought by your side countless times dies, I don't give a damn about some PH definition of "Good" that qualifies you to be a paladin- you don't fit the definition where it counts.

Personally, I'm in the camp that thinks the illusion includes what Belkar wishes were true- that Durkon was alive in his place and that he was dead and his companions were sorry for his loss.

This is the same guy who eight strips ago said: "Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at." Not, you will note, "Hurting people is what I'm good at"; "the only thing I'm good at." Does that sound like someone who's happy with how he's living his existence?

I swear, some people's definition of "good" and "evil" has less nuance than Miko's.
I don't care how 'nuanced' your definition of Evil is, Belkar is EVIL. Absolutely, completely, horrifyingly, irredeemably evil. In real life, this dude would be on death row. Sure, he makes funny jokes and is somewhat loyal to a largely Good group, but the dude is EEEEEEVIL. Another campaign could easily be centred on a bunch of low-level adventurers teaming up to take down the poorly-optimised halfling serial killer that's terrorising the countryside. In a much less dark comic, Evisceratus would have succeeded in ridding the world of this monstrosity. Hell, it would have been better if MIKO had killed him, and she was like King Midas if everything he touched turned into a disaster.. For this story to have an truly happy ending, Belkar and his kilonazi scale of Evil need to die.

:roy:: "He might seem cooperative now, but don't forget that he's a cold-blooded monster that we're just managing to control through intangible means until either he escapes, or dies for a cause that isn't his own."

[Kish]

Yeah, he's a murderous barbarian loose cannon- which is basically saying he's a typical adventurer in that world.
"Interesting" claim there. So the mere fact that four of the other five members of the Order don't kill and torture for fun (and Vaarsuvius only does so occasionally) makes them highly abnormal? I'm sure Redcloak would agree with you, and if you were right then he would truly be the hero of the comic.

He has done many evil things. "He's killed and tortured many innocents, but he's always been at the party's side and that's what matters" seems to presume that morality consists solely and entirely of personal loyalty.

[sims796]

Evisceratus would have succeeded in ridding the world of this monstrosity.

Who's he? I must have forgotten.

[quasit]

Who's he? I must have forgotten.

The gladiator slain in the arena, who died eviscerated by Mr. Scruffy. (hence the name "Evisceratus").

[SiuiS]

Depending on how negative levels work, it's possible he can't be raised. Raise Dead causes you to lose a level when you come back, and someone who died at level one can't be raised. Belkar just got drained by two vampires nearly to death. Depending on how negative levels count, he could be considered level one for the purposes of Raise Dead, making it impossible to raise him.

Negative levels are, oddly, a condition which require you to be alive. Dying removes them completely.

[sims796]

The gladiator slain in the arena, who died eviscerated by Mr. Scruffy. (hence the name "Evisceratus").

Oh! I thought that was Vaarsuvius' mentor! I was wondering why he of all people was bought up.

[R-Group]

In a much less dark comic, Evisceratus would have succeeded in ridding the world of this monstrosity.

Come on. A first Level Commoner killing Belkar? He may be unoptimized, but he's nowhere near THAT weak.


Hell, it would have been better if MIKO had killed him.

Yeah, and if that happened Haley would be dead, the Cleric of Loki would be dead, Celia would be a captive of the Thieves Guild, Roy's body would still be with the MiTD, Ganji and Enor would be dead...the list goes on.

[orrion]

Yeah, and if that happened Haley would be dead, the Cleric of Loki would be dead, Celia would be a captive of the Thieves Guild, Roy's body would still be with the MiTD, Ganji and Enor would be dead...the list goes on.

Overruled.

If Rich had Belkar killed by Miko the story would likely have been written differently in other ways as well, meaning that those events might not have happened in that manner, if at all.

For example, if Miko kills Belkar early on it's likely she doesn't go batsh!t insane (see the Oracle's interpretation of her death) and thus doesn't Fall or blow up the castle.

It's just silly to cut a character out of events unilaterally like that, and your list of events aren't even consistent. First of all, Haley and Celia probably don't go to Greysky at all if Belkar isn't there because Belkar killed the Oracle which means the Oracle would have answered their question (nearest Good-aligned Cleric that can raise Roy; Cleric of Loki probably wasn't Good-aligned). Second of all, even if you assume all the Greysky stuff still happens somehow, what makes you think the rest of the party (now consisting of Elan, Durkon, and Vaarsuvius) ever makes it to the Western Continent or encounters Ganji and Enor? And continuing on from the first example up there, wouldn't Soon have killed Redcloak and Xykon anyway and made the entire thing moot?

Yeah.

[R-Group]

If Rich had Belkar killed by Miko the story would likely have been written differently in other ways as well, meaning that those events might not have happened in that manner, if at all.

I don't really think that's how it works. If Belkar had died early on that by no means invalidates what happened afterwards. In many ways, Belkar did not initiate the events that transpired (barring the Oracle incident you mentioned; you are completely correct there). For example, Celia brought Roy's body to Greysky City herself: even if the Oracle wasn't killed by Belkar, he still could not have raised Roy. Greysky was the closest City at the time, so Celia went there to try and get Roy resurrected.


For example, if Miko kills Belkar early on it's likely she doesn't go batsh!t insane (see the Oracle's interpretation of her death) and thus doesn't Fall or blow up the castle.

I'm actually not so sure that's a reasonable assumption to make. Sure, I'll allow that Belkar was a primary reason, among numerous foolish assertions of Miko's, that Shojo was someone who "deserved to be killed". However, if she had killed Belkar in cold blood (which he was pushing her to do from early on), then she (likely) would have fallen then, too. Can you imagine what that would have done to her already fragile psyche? She might have started believing that the Twelve Gods themselves were not truly good, but in reality a force of "evil" deities siding with Shojo to ruin her! Why else would they have stripped her of her paladin powers for killing an evil psychopath? SLASH SLASH SLASH!


It's just silly to cut a character out of events unilaterally like that...

I may have this wrong here, but wasn't the idea that it would be for the best if Miko, or anyone else for that matter, had killed Belkar earlier on? I was trying to express the idea that if Belkar had died early on it would have significantly altered the storyline so far. Perhaps I did not express that as clearly as I should have...


...and your list of events aren't even consistent.

First of all, Haley and Celia probably don't go to Greysky at all if Belkar isn't there because Belkar killed the Oracle which means the Oracle would have answered their question (nearest Good-aligned Cleric that can raise Roy; Cleric of Loki probably wasn't Good-aligned). Second of all, even if you assume all the Greysky stuff still happens somehow, what makes you think the rest of the party (now consisting of Elan, Durkon, and Vaarsuvius) ever makes it to the Western Continent or encounters Ganji and Enor? And continuing on from the first example up there, wouldn't Soon have killed Redcloak and Xykon anyway and made the entire thing moot?

Yeah.

I think I addressed this well enough above. Although, to make an addendum: I was only listing a set of events, not in precisely chronological order, that Belkar's influence had directly improved the outcome of, oft times saving someone's life in the process. Just sayin'.

But furthermore...if Belkar died, the party stills gets split up at the Battle of Azure City, right? Then by following your train of events: the fight with the Thieve's Guild never happens, since Haley and Celia don't go to Greysky, so though don't get in contact with that cleric of Loki and are instead wandering towards Cliffport, a journey that takes several more weeks of travel. During this time the whole Darth Vaarsuvius episode occurs, but the party isn't together at the moment when Vaarsuvius teleports to meet Haley and Celia, since Durkon didn't get the sending message from the cleric of Loki. When Vaarsuvius Epic Teleports them all together once more, for Durkon to raise Roy, the question is: did V have another Epic Teleport available? In the story as it is, he only ever used a total of two Epic Teleports. Did he have a third to go and fight Xykon? If he didn't then Xykon's phylactery would most likely not have been lost in the first place...and he could have beaten the Order to Girard's Gate by a long shot.

I know its pretty convoluted, and in retrospect probably made a lot more sense in my head than written down, but I feel the point is clear. Belkar being alive has significantly affected the story, in a way such that if he were dead, from the moment when Miko killed him onwards, things might be much more grim for the Order. Or, at least, that's how it looked in my head.

[Kish]

I know its pretty convoluted, and in retrospect probably made a lot more sense in my head than written down, but I feel the point is clear. Belkar being alive has significantly affected the story, in a way such that if he were dead, from the moment when Miko killed him onwards, things might be much more grim for the Order. Or, at least, that's how it looked in my head.
That is true, only because it contains the word "might." It would be equally true to say, "Belkar being alive has significantly affected the story, in a way such that if he were dead, from the moment when Miko killed him onwards, things might be much better for the Order." Yank the Belkar thread out and the tapestry reweaves itself. Even if strict consequentialism was the only way to look at it--and even if Solt Lorkyurg's life counts for nothing--you're not the Oracle. Even if you were, Roy isn't and had no reason to believe that continuing to shelter and support the little psychopath would result in anything but his vicinity including an ever-increasing body count of the innocent and not-innocent-but-still-not-deserving-of-death, as it had up until the moment when Miko tried to kill Belkar; Roy was amazingly lucky--and it was pure luck--that the Mark of Justice storyline turned out as well as it did. Even with the brutal death of an innocent gnomish peddlar in the middle of it; Roy is lucky Belkar's while-Roy-is-dead death count didn't reach double-digits.

[R-Group]

That is true, only because it contains the word "might." It would be equally true to say, "Belkar being alive has significantly affected the story, in a way such that if he were dead, from the moment when Miko killed him onwards, things might be much better for the Order." Yank the Belkar thread out and the tapestry reweaves itself. Even if strict consequentialism was the only way to look at it--and even if Solt Lorkyurg's life counts for nothing--you're not the Oracle.

That's kind of self evident isn't it? Things could have turned out significantly better or worse if Belkar had died by Miko's hands so early in the storyline. I'm not trying to be the Oracle, I don't believe my word is law or any of that bunk. I described a series of events that, in my opinion, made logical sense following the Battle of Azure City--if Belkar had been killed beforehand. Is it the only thing that could have happened? No, of course not! It was an example for goodness sakes. Is it "true" only in the sense that it might have happened in that manner? Yes, exactly, that was the point!


Even if you were, Roy isn't and had no reason to believe that continuing to shelter and support the little psychopath would result in anything but his vicinity including an ever-increasing body count of the innocent and not-innocent-but-still-not-deserving-of-death, as it had up until the moment when Miko tried to kill Belkar; Roy was amazingly lucky--and it was pure luck--that the Mark of Justice storyline turned out as well as it did. Even with the brutal death of an innocent gnomish peddlar in the middle of it; Roy is lucky Belkar's while-Roy-is-dead death count didn't reach double-digits.

Barring the murder of Solt and the Oracle, I would say the time during Roy's afterlife went as well as it did due to Belkar's intervention. He blooded his own hands with two horrible crimes, I'll warrant that, but he did also help to save both Haley and Celia. Can we say how it would have occurred if he Belkar wasn't present? As you pointed out, no, we can't be sure. However, we can have our own personal ideas and opinions, and I feel (overall), that the Order would be much worse off without Belkar alive.

[The Pilgrim]

Barring the murder of Solt and the Oracle, I would say the time during Roy's afterlife went as well as it did due to Belkar's intervention. He blooded his own hands with two horrible crimes, I'll warrant that, but he did also help to save both Haley and Celia.

Belkar did not save Celia. She saved herself by reaching an agreement with the Thieves' Guild.

Since Belkar had no intervention in that deal, it's reasonable to assume she probably could have made the deal anyway, Belkar or not.

[R-Group]

Belkar did not save Celia. She saved herself by reaching an agreement with the Thieves' Guild.

Since Belkar had no intervention in that deal, it's reasonable to assume she probably could have made the deal anyway, Belkar or not.

I would argue that Belkar's actions did, if indirectly, help to save Celia. I don't believe that Hank would have actually made a deal with Celia if Belkar hadn't shown up to fight Bozzok and Crystal. Belkar was making short work of every thief the Guild had present, and the situation was going south, fast; prompting the deal.

Hank already stated, "No one leaves, except in a casket." If Belkar wasn't there kicking butt and taking names, I don't really see Celia negotiating her way out of that.

Sure, Belkar didn't jump in to rescue Celia away from impending doom, as he did with Haley. However, his presence should be warranted as having assisted, drastically, in turning a situation that seemed ruined form the start into a victory.

[Reverent-One]

Even if you were, Roy isn't and had no reason to believe that continuing to shelter and support the little psychopath would result in anything but his vicinity including an ever-increasing body count of the innocent and not-innocent-but-still-not-deserving-of-death, as it had up until the moment when Miko tried to kill Belkar; Roy was amazingly lucky--and it was pure luck--that the Mark of Justice storyline turned out as well as it did. Even with the brutal death of an innocent gnomish peddlar in the middle of it; Roy is lucky Belkar's while-Roy-is-dead death count didn't reach double-digits.

He has plenty of reason to believe that continuing the watch Belkar will reduce his kill count of innocents, given that under Roy's watch, that number has been small and hasn't increased for hundreds of strips. Things got worse after Roy died, which only confirms Roy's theory that keeping Belkar with him is the better choice.

[SteveMB]

Heh....I thought it was pretty well telegraphed Belkar has a deathwish. As others I believe have pointed out, go back just a few strips (879-880 in particular). I think even if the illusion is in some part consensual the victims still shape their own idealized realities since Elan does some things that I'm not sure would fit in the other's wish fulfillment realities.

Belkar wants to be dead in Durkon's place.

Also, getting back to the wish-fulfillment nature of the illusion, Roy (at least) surely wishes (whether he's willing to admit it to himself so bluntly) that Belkar had died instead of Durkon.... which is (deliberately, perhaps) reminiscent of Girard in the final argument that blew up the Order of the Scribble.

[Bulldog Psion]

I would argue that Belkar's actions did, if indirectly, help to save Celia. I don't believe that Hank would have actually made a deal with Celia if Belkar hadn't shown up to fight Bozzok and Crystal. Belkar was making short work of every thief the Guild had present, and the situation was going south, fast; prompting the deal.

Hank already stated, "No one leaves, except in a casket." If Belkar wasn't there kicking butt and taking names, I don't really see Celia negotiating her way out of that.

Sure, Belkar didn't jump in to rescue Celia away from impending doom, as he did with Haley. However, his presence should be warranted as having assisted, drastically, in turning a situation that seemed ruined form the start into a victory.

I agree, because I doubt Hank would have even bothered to negotiate if the guild wasn't getting "pwned," as Belkar put it. Why negotiate if you're assured of total victory? Without Belkar, both Haley and Celia would have died and been sold to Grubwiggler for golem parts.

[The Pilgrim]

Hank already stated, "No one leaves, except in a casket." If Belkar wasn't there kicking butt and taking names, I don't really see Celia negotiating her way out of that

Except that she actually DID so, in the next panel, without any intervention from Belkar. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html)

Hank make the deal when he had Celia grabbed and totally at his mercy. He was mostly unaware of Belkar. Celia talked him in the right tune - about profit and money - and he signed.

So, no, Belkar made a good show in that scene, but his presence wasn't in any way mandatory for the Order to have succeeded.

[Kish]

Meanwhile, I am shaking my head at the assumption that the story would have taken a form that would have led to "Celia and Haley in Greysky City" if Belkar had been killed by Miko.

From an in- or out-of-story perspective.

[The Pilgrim]

I agree, because I doubt Hank would have even bothered to negotiate if the guild wasn't getting "pwned," as Belkar put it. Why negotiate if you're assured of total victory? Without Belkar, both Haley and Celia would have died and been sold to Grubwiggler for golem parts.

Isn't that what Haley actually did? She accepted the negotiation even through she had Bozzok and Crystal pwned.

[R-Group]

Hank make the deal when he had Celia grabbed and totally at his mercy. He was mostly unaware of Belkar. Celia talked him in the right tune - about profit and money - and he signed.

Moreso, when Belkar finally shown up, Celia was almost going to intervene to save Haley. She could have just zapped Bozzok and Crystal or distract them in any other way (she has sorcerer levels) and grab Haley and fly away (just as he did right after Belkar distracted the two).

And in any case, the Cleric of Loki had already succesfully contacted Drukon with directions.

So, no, Belkar made a good show in that scene, but his presence wasn't in any way mandatory for the Order to have succeeded.

I still say he was. When Hank chased, and later grabbed Celia, it was under the assumption of getting wealth from her. Once they realized she had none, they were prepared to kill her. Hank's, along with the rest of the Guild's, goal had been to kill the cleric, the halfing, Celia and Haley. Belkar carved a bloody swath through the Guild members, ruining that whole plan. Hank HAD to make a deal, at that point: if he didn't Belkar would have likely killed every Guild member in the house.

Furthermore, Celia was not prepared to save Haley. At that moment, she had just watched Crystal slice off Haley's ponytail. The last thing she said before Belkar showed up was, "I...I can't help her." Celia gave up on Haley.

And even more specific, Haley sent Durkon two sendings. The first was sent by the Cleric of Loki, the second once she was "allied" with the Thieves Guild. It was that second message that gave Durkon the coordinates to travel to. If Haley and Celia had died at the hands of the Thieves Guild just then, that second message wouldn't have been sent. See here: Strip 610 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html) and Strip 643 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html).

I think Belkar's presence was pretty mandatory just then. Of course, as both Kish and Orrion explained to me above, it is more reasonable to say that if Belkar had died early, then the events in Greysky wouldn't have even occurred. If that's what you believe, at least.

[The Pilgrim]

I still say he was.

Can you provide one single pannel in which Hank sees Belkar or what Belkar has done? or just mentions it?


And even more specific, Haley sent Durkon two sendings. The first was sent by the Cleric of Loki, the second once she was "allied" with the Thieves Guild. It was that second message that gave Durkon the coordinates to travel to. If Haley and Celia had died at the hands of the Thieves Guild just then, that second message wouldn't have been sent. See here: Strip 610 and Strip 643.

Check the archive before making statements (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html), the first sending had already hit home. Durkon and Elan were going to Greysky City, and there was nothing preventing Celia from having escaped the House, and even grabbed Haley in the process.

It's the Thieves' Guild we are speaking here. Bozzok did not want to kill Haley out of spite, he was just protecting his reputation. Business. There is no indication that he wouldn't have accepted Celia's deal of reistating Haley into the Guild and retroactively get half her loot. That would have fulfilled Bozzok's objectives AND provide extra revenue.

Geez, he was idiot enough to actually think that Haley was gonna honor the deal.

Anyway, if we are gonna speculate how the comic had went without Belkar in it... well, I'm with Kish, with no Oracle slain they wouldn't have went to Greysky City in the first place.

[quasit]

Well, at the moment they got their hands on Celia they're seeing Bozzok heading towards haley and them in a corridor with some guild members dead and some others on the receiving end of certain arrowy death; concidentally Crystal wasn't present and given that they certainly know there's a lot of animosity between her and Haley seems odd that he misses a chance to kill her like that. Also, the library door is at the house lobby, where a few guild members corpses and "brainy" pete's one are strewn. If Hank didn't thought for a moment that the whole raid might not be going as well as they expected, I see no reason for not killing celia on the spot, join Bozzok and proceed to gank Haley. Given those clues, I think Hank was playing it safe already when they abducted Celia. And in the end, the negotiation ended being very profitable to them and saved the day, methinks.

[The Pilgrim]

If Hank didn't thought for a moment that the whole raid might not be going as well as they expected, I see no reason for not killing celia on the spot

The reason is basically because Celia had promised him a lot of magic items if he caught her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html). And he wants them.

Geez, he even tells it straight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) after he took Celia into a private room.

Hank could care less about how the battle was going. He was interested in profit on those though economic times we live.

After all, don't you think that if the developement of the battle had any weight in Hank's decission, he would have, like, made at least a hint about it (for us readers to know)?

[quasit]

So it's more like "screw orders, let's make profit for oneselves", isn't it?
Dunno... do we have any hint about he having those personality traits? I only have had read the online strips and I don't know if he got more time in the spotlight in the bonus ones or the > 1 books. Anyway being on a thieves guilds might put him into the "not very trustworthy" group, so that makes sense too. :smallconfused:

[Kish]

If I were to sketch the tapestry if Miko yanked the Belkar thread out of it...from a strictly story-internal perspective, it would go something like this.

Miko smashes Belkar into the floor of the throne room and screams, "Time to DIE, evildoer!" The other members of the Order go, "Yeah, he deserves to die." Miko kills Belkar, and Shojo sends her out of the throne room. Her negative attitude toward the rest of the Order has been reduced to "annoyed"; she still likes and respects Durkon, and the only actually evil member of the Order is dead, with the concurrence of the other members.

Miko discovers that Shojo has been lying to the paladins. She still wants to kill him and suspects Roy of more crimes than he's actually guilty of, but she's not prepared to ignore both her own Detect Evil ability and Hinjo's authority as Lord of the City in the name of killing Shojo and convicting Roy. Shojo goes to prison. Possibly he gives Hinjo advice on the defense of the city, which may include not releasing the two prisoners Hinjo chose to release on his own.

Miko the unFallen meets Xykon in the throne room with the rest of the Sapphire Guard. Probably, she makes her saving throw against the Symbol of Insanity and tries to smash the Sapphire along with O-Chul.

Xykon stops them somehow. Probably not with a paralyzing touch when they're inches away, since there are two of them rather than one, likely forcing Xykon to take them a little more seriously. They may or may not survive this.

The Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard rise. Soon kills Redcloak and destroys Xykon. Shortly thereafter, the Order arrive. Hinjo may or not be with them, depending on whether he released the grand larcenist assassin and subsequently got killed. With Shojo still alive, albeit imprisoned, Kubota is on much shakier ground in his bid for rulership of the city; most likely Hinjo survives, one way or another. In any event, Soon tells Roy how to smash Xykon's phylactery.

Story-externally, of course if Rich wrote Belkar out of the story in No Cure for the Paladin Blues the subsequent books would be completely different, written with plot and theme based around Belkar's absence, not his presence.


So it's more like "screw orders, let's make profit for oneselves", isn't it?
Dunno... do we have any hint about he having those personality traits?
Does the last thing Haley says to him in OtOoPCs being a reference to his long-term embezzlement from Bozzok count?

[The Pilgrim]

So it's more like "screw orders, let's make profit for oneselves", isn't it?
Dunno... do we have any hint about he having those personality traits? I only have had read the online strips and I don't know if he got more time in the spotlight in the bonus ones or the > 1 books. Anyway being on a thieves guilds might put him into the "not very trustworthy" group, so that makes sense too. :smallconfused:

Mmmh, a hint about those personality traits on Hank? Well, besides Hank going in pursuit of Celia on the feeble promise of catching some magic items before Bozzok can notice them - instead of finishing off Haley (#604 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html))...

And, besides, later, standing aside while his boss faces Haley, in order to abduct Celia into a private room and get said items (#615 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html))...

No, besides those two events, we don't have a hint. Not really.

:smalltongue:

[R-Group]

Can you provide one single panel in which Hank sees Belkar or what Belkar has done? or just mentions it?

Well...they were in the same corridor as the pile of bodies Belkar made from a strip or two earlier. Also, Hank's 8th level Rogue crony is looking out the very door they slipped through that same strip. They know whats going on.


Check the archive before making statements, the first sending had already hit home. Durkon and Elan were going to Greysky City, and there was nothing preventing Celia from having escaped the House, and even grabbed Haley in the process.

I cannot abide by this. I actually quoted what Celia said, that "I...I can't save her," referring to Haley, who was about to be murdered by Crystal. The next strip, Belkar is back on his feet and killing thieves. When he reaches topside in three strips time, Celia has still not saved Haley. She has, actually, done nothing at all. Belkar, however, does, and immediately leaps to his friend's aid. Whether or not he actually cared for Haley's well being is another matter, but he still took efforts to save her.

Then, in Strip 643 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html), second to last panel, Daigo says and I quote: "He got a second sending spell right before he left, saying that she was staying at the Thieves Guild." And then Kazumi gives Vaarsuvius the coordinates (the address) that Haley gave Durkon on the second sending spell (it had to be the second spell as we can read the first message on the wall of Pete's hideout where Haley marked it; it only mentions Greysky City as being her location). Please, do not call me out for not reading material when you yourself ignore pages that I have already quoted and linked to. The very strip you are telling me to go and read confirms what I stated early.


It's the Thieves' Guild we are speaking here. Bozzok did not want to kill Haley out of spite, he was just protecting his reputation. Business. There is no indication that he wouldn't have accepted Celia's deal of reinstating Haley into the Guild and retroactively get half her loot. That would have fulfilled Bozzok's objectives AND provide extra revenue.

All I have to say here is that Bozzok wanted to kill Haley personally for experience points. He said as much in Strip 609 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) and in Strip 610 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html). Bozzok wanted to kill Haley, not only because it helped him out from a Business perspective, but also since he just wants her dead:

Haley: "You don't have to kill them though. You could just drive them out of town."
Bozzok: "Other benefits of the execution aside, the fact that you yourself returned sort of undercuts your position, don't you agree?"


snip

While that is a nice turn of events, and overall quite interesting as it would place Miko as a much more influential character following the events of the Battle for Azure City (if she survives and the story is able to continue from that point on). However, I just don't see it happening in that manner from my perspective. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree in this case.

Oh, and by the by, I like the whole tapestry metaphor. Very fitting.

[veti]

If I were to sketch the tapestry if Miko yanked the Belkar thread out of it...from a strictly story-internal perspective, it would go something like this.

Miko smashes Belkar into the floor of the throne room and screams, "Time to DIE, evildoer!" The other members of the Order go, "Yeah, he deserves to die." Miko kills Belkar, and Shojo sends her out of the throne room. Her negative attitude toward the rest of the Order has been reduced to "annoyed"; she still likes and respects Durkon, and the only actually evil member of the Order is dead, with the concurrence of the other members.

You're ignoring the effect on the rest of the Order, of allowing Miko to murder Belkar. To say nothing of the effect on Miko herself - Belkar thinks she'd Fall from that act, and he may well be right.

But the rest of the Order, even if they didn't intervene effectively, would not have stood back and said "Nice job". Killing a PC, even a maverick/misfit one, is always a traumatic event for the whole party. In this case, Haley and Vaarsuvius (in particular) would start wondering - if party loyalty is something you have to earn, and can be withdrawn at any moment, what exactly is the bar?

I don't think the OOTS would have held together long, after that.


Miko the unFallen meets Xykon in the throne room with the rest of the Sapphire Guard. Probably, she makes her saving throw against the Symbol of Insanity and tries to smash the Sapphire along with O-Chul.

Assuming she killed Belkar and didn't Fall, and assuming - whether she Fell or not - that she wasn't imprisoned for that murder in its own right. Breaking either of those assumptions would put us right back on track to the story-as-written.

So let's project from there. Haley is now trapped in Azure City alone, with nothing but Roy's corpse and the Resistance to keep her company. She eventually activates the amulet and summons Celia, and events unfold from there pretty much the same, minus some comedy, until we reach Greysky. There - well, Haley dies. Let's generously assume Celia somehow escapes with Roy's body and later manages to contact Durkon.

Vaarsuvius, meanwhile, has gone her own way and committed genocide, Durkon has waddled about ineffectually on the boats, and Elan has composed several more ballads to his fallen comrades.

When the party is reunited, Vaarsuvius realises she can no longer be a part of it - 'Familicide' puts her well beyond the pale of what can be tolerated within this group - and Elan is so distraught at Haley's death that he gives up on adventuring entirely. So Roy and Durkon are left to recruit new members who match both their alignment and their level. Good luck with that.

[The Pilgrim]

Well...

Translation: No, you can't provide any single panel in which Hank sees Belkar, his work, or mades any reference to it.

If anything, Hank seems too concentrated in shacking the magic items out of Celia to actually care about what's happening in the house anymore.


Then, in Strip 643 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html), second to last panel, Daigo says and I quote: "He got a second sending spell right before he left, saying that she was staying at the Thieves Guild."

Meaning they where about to leave because they received the first sending. So they were headed to Greysky City anyway and were aware of Haley's dire situation and what needed to be done.


All I have to say here is that Bozzok wanted to kill Haley personally for experience points. He said as much in Strip 609 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) and in Strip 610 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html). Bozzok wanted to kill Haley, not only because it helped him out from a Business perspective, but also since he just wants her dead:

The first stripe proves exactly my point: Bozzok has no personal feud with Haley. It's business. He can't let Haley come and go at her please because it would undermine the Guild's business.

Besides, he let Haley go in the first place, and also staged a plan to force Ian away instead of just killing him. So, despite being an evil guy, Bozzok has no problem to skip killing you if you make him an slighty better offer, or if he thinks he can't get away with it.

So, after Celia makes her deal with Hank, it somes to reason that Celia AND Hank could persuade Bozzok to accept the deal - just like, in the opposite situation, they persuaded Haley to accept the deal.

The second stripe is actually pointless for the discussion. To say that Bozzok wants to kill Haley just for the XP because he urges Crystal to stop fooling and kill Haley "so we can split the XP", is like having that Monk ability that allows you to jump as far as you want, only applied at conclussions.

[Dwy]

I think people around these forums fail to see just how bad Miko's narcisistic, paranoia is. She calls herself a Paladin, but acts as if she rather
was a blackguard to good aligned gods.

Even without Belkar to knock that final screw loose, she'd be a ticking bomb. She'd still be socially isolated, she'd still have a very limited emotional register aside from the feeling "Righteous fury", which is a dangerous feeling indeed for a person that self-righteous. Not to mention, Mr X and his orange company would still be launching an invasion, and the Order would still have "lied to her". The big difference here is, that in this scenario, when Miko loses it, the sexy shoeless god of war won't be around to take her punches. Good people would die.

I strongly doubt the Order would remain loyal and true to one another after standing by watching one of their own die too. After all, if they just let Belkar die, how can any one member expect the others to stand up for him/her when needed? They can't.

Miko's story is a tragedy. It does inspire sympathy. She did kick some ass. That still doesn't make her a reliable tool for the nice guys.

[Kish]

right back on track to the story-as-written.
I pretty much don't agree with even a single syllable of your post, I'm afraid, veti, but mainly, this. Why do so many people think that you can change "Major character X survives" to "Major character X dies" and have the story be unchanged except for those occasions when that character does something active (and, in this specific case, actively good)?

[R-Group]

Translation: No, you can't provide any single panel in which Hank sees Belkar, his work, or mades any reference to it.

If anything, Hank seems too concentrated in shacking the magic items out of Celia to actually care about what's happening in the house anymore.

And yet, you seem to ignore the fact that they were in the SAME FREAKING HALLWAY as the pile of bodies Belkar made when they grabbed Celia. Haley and Celia actually walked past the remains of about six thieves and Old Blind Pete's corpse to the room with Pete's magic bows, the same room where Celia made her deal with Hank. Hank knew all too well what was going on at that time (unless of course if he was blind too). Remember, just because something isn't explicitly shown on panel does not mean it just doesn't happen. I even go so far as to quote Hank's very words, and you ignore it.


Meaning they where about to leave because they received the first sending. So they were headed to Greysky City anyway and were aware of Haley's dire situation and what needed to be done.

Greysky is a city. Think for a minute. At the time of the first Sending spell all Durkon knew was that Haley was hidden in Greysky city. Even if Greysky is especially small, it is still much too large for Durkon and Elan to search everywhere for Haley. If the Thieves Guild killed her, I ask you, how would Durkon EVER find the body in a whole city! Haley's message says: "From Haley: Alive, in Danger in Greysky, with Belkar, Celia. Roy's body stolen. Thieves Guild attacking. Come ASAP. Bring diamonds for resurrection(s). Love to Elan."

Where, exactly, would Durkon go to find and save Haley? If the thieves killed her, would they just hand over the body to Durkon when he asked for it? Of course not. When the first sending spell is sent, Durkon and Elan will have to travel to Greysky city, and search said city for who knows how long until they find a body, which will more likely than not be looted for all its magic items, in a place where near everyone is corrupt and/or villainous. Explain to me how that works.

On the other hand, the second sending spell gives EXACT coordinates, even an address, of where to find Haley, Celia and Belkar, relatively safe and sound. If Haley had died, I sincerely doubt someone as lawful as Durkon, and as foolish as Elan could find her body in a dangerous place that would, and could, rob the very clothes from their back and weapons from their hands.


The first stripe proves exactly my point: Bozzok has no personal feud with Haley. It's business. He can't let Haley come and go at her please because it would undermine the Guild's business.

Besides, he let Haley go in the first place, and also staged a plan to force Ian away instead of just killing him. So, despite being an evil guy, Bozzok has no problem to skip killing you if you make him an slighty better offer, or if he thinks he can't get away with it.

So, after Celia makes her deal with Hank, it somes to reason that Celia AND Hank could persuade Bozzok to accept the deal - just like, in the opposite situation, they persuaded Haley to accept the deal.

He didn't just let Haley go the first time. As Hank said in On the Origin of PCs, Bozzok will only give Haley about an hour head-start until he lets Crystal loose to kill her, and even then he did that only as thanks for all the gold she brought in. He couldn't kill Ian, because Ian was a popular man among the Guild.


The second stripe is actually pointless for the discussion. To say that Bozzok wants to kill Haley just for the XP because he urges Crystal to stop fooling and kill Haley "so we can split the XP", is like having that Monk ability that allows you to jump as far as you want, only applied at conclussions.

Good Lord, I'm done. Again, I actually directly linked to Bozzok's exact statement, as a reason to personally execute her. So what is your response? You say the evidence I presented, somehow, does not actually support my point. You call it irrelevant. Argue my interpretation, say you don't agree, do anything. But don't just ignore the fact that I even mentioned it.

And what the hell are you taking about "Jumping to conclusions," for? Bozzok really did say, "Kill her for XP," as a benefit of executing everyone who leaves the Guild. That's not jumping to a conclusion, that's what he actually said.

[The Pilgrim]

I even go so far as to quote Hank's very words, and you ignore it.

You mean when you misquoted Hank as if when he said "nobody leaves except in a casket" he was refering to the House, when in fact he was refering to the Guild? Celia got the point rather quickly and, then, offered to nullify Haley's resignation from the Guild. And that's about it, Belkar and the massacre at the House had little to see with it. Celia never used "Belkar is decimating your numbers" as a bargaining chip. Hank couldn't care less about it, assuming he was aware of it.

Just because something isn't explicity shown on panel doesn't mean it just happens.


Greysky is a city. Think for a minute. At the time of the first Sending spell all Durkon knew was that Haley was hidden in Greysky city. Even if Greysky is especially small, it is still much too large for Durkon and Elan to search everywhere for Haley. If the Thieves Guild killed her, I ask you, how would Durkon EVER find the body in a whole city! Haley's message says: "From Haley: Alive, in Danger in Greysky, with Belkar, Celia. Roy's body stolen. Thieves Guild attacking. Come ASAP. Bring diamonds for resurrection(s). Love to Elan."

I really need to answer that?

Well, answer me this: What happens when soul-spliced V arrives to Greysky City knowing that the Thieve's Guild has killed Haley?

Nothing funny... for the thieves.

And that's assuming the worst scenario out there.



He didn't just let Haley go the first time. As Hank said in On the Origin of PCs, Bozzok will only give Haley about an hour head-start until he lets Crystal loose to kill her, and even then he did that only as thanks for all the gold she brought in. He couldn't kill Ian, because Ian was a popular man among the Guild.

So? As I said, he let Haley go. Of course, he would have sent Crystal after her if she had not leaved the City. Still, if Bozzok had wanted Haley killed, he wouldn't have let her exit the Guild alive.

And Bozzok didn't killed Ian because he couldn't get away with it. Like I said in my previous message.

So, thanks for proving my points further.


Good Lord, I'm done. Again, I actually directly linked to Bozzok's exact statement, as a reason to personally execute her. So what is your response? You say the evidence I presented, somehow, does not actually support my point. You call it irrelevant. Argue my interpretation, say you don't agree, do anything. But don't just ignore the fact that I even mentioned it.

And what the hell are you taking about "Jumping to conclusions," for? Bozzok really did say, "Kill her for XP," as a benefit of executing everyone who leaves the Guild. That's not jumping to a conclusion, that's what he actually said.

Just because you are misquoting characters and jumping to wrong interpretations of their words, doesn't means you are right.

Bozzok made the point straight: He wants to kill Haley because she has been robbing in his city without the Guild's approval. The XP are just a collateral benefit.

Bozzok doesn't executes people who leaves the Guild for the XP. He executes them because, as he explicitly said, his bussines relies on exclusivity. The XP are just a secondary benefit. He would execute quitters anyway even if no XP were gained. If you negotiate with him and not only revoke your quit, n offer to pay the Guild's cut on everything you have looted since, and also make up a good cover story that will make the Guild appear as stronger, then Bozzok will not refuse for some XP.

I mean, it's like if, when the OOTS finally faces Xykon, after a long and tiresome battle, Roy says "let's kill him already and split the XP" and you interpret that everything the OOTS has done was just for XP, and not to save the world and make daddy proud. Ridiculous.

[R-Group]

You mean when you misquoted Hank as if when he said "nobody leaves except in a casket" he was refering to the House, when in fact he was refering to the Guild? Celia got the point rather quickly and, then, offered to nullify Haley's resignation from the Guild. And that's about it, Belkar and the massacre at the House had little to see with it. Celia never used "Belkar is decimating your numbers" as a bargaining chip. Hank couldn't care less about it, assuming he was aware of it.

First of all, I didn't misquote Hank. I directly wrote down the exact words Hank stated on-panel. You and I disagree over the meaning of those words, but the quote itself is correct.

Second. Yes, he was referring to the Guild. The goal of the Guild's presence at Pete's house was to kill Haley and her companions, since she committed a thievery not sanctioned by the Thieves Guild. Then, as Haley states about Hank near the beginning of the fight, He "generally doesn't get worked up over what amounts to a territorial dispute," (See Strip 604, panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html)). Hank wanted a reason to end the fighting as he says in Strip 620, panel 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0620.html), "You stop killing Guild members and we all help you get your leader back."

In short, Hank knew that a lot of Guild members were dieing. He saw to it that Belkar and Haley stopped killing them and they could all move on. Hank most certainly did know and care about what was going on during the fight.


Just because something isn't explicity shown on panel doesn't mean it just happens.

Likewise, just because something isn't shown on panel doesn't mean it didn't happen. Durkon heals the Order off panel all the time. Characters sleep off panel. Hank could easily see the dead Guild members who were lying in the main hallway off panel. He even saw Haley kill three low-level thieves right in front off him. Did that not happen either?


I really need to answer that?

Well, answer me this: What happens when soul-spliced V arrives to Greysky City knowing that the Thieve's Guild has killed Haley?

Nothing funny... for the thieves.

And that's assuming the worst scenario out there.

Perhaps I should be more clear. Without specific coordinates of where to find Haley, Celia, and whoever else, even if Durkon and Elan travel to Greysky they will have a Hell of a time actually finding the bodies of their friends, if they were killed during the fight. If Belkar was not present at the time of the thieves' raid, it is quite likely that Haley would have been killed and her body disposed of. Durkon is highly Lawful, Elan is rather foolish. If that second Sending spell had not arrived, the two of them simply would not have been able to search the entire city for her body within any reasonable amount of time. It was only with the second Sending spell, which only occur ed thanks to Belkar saving the day, that the two where able to find Haley.

Likewise, even if Vaarsuvius teleported in to find Haley dead, and so took it upon herself to kill every last thief in the city, and level the Guildhall, it makes no difference. If Haley had died during the fight, which would have happened if Belkar had not saved her, neither Elan, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, or any of them could have found her body without spending a massive amount of time searching throughout Greysky.

That is the point I was making.


So? As I said, he let Haley go. Of course, he would have sent Crystal after her if she had not leaved the City. Still, if Bozzok had wanted Haley killed, he wouldn't have let her exit the Guild alive.

And Bozzok didn't killed Ian because he couldn't get away with it. Like I said in my previous message.

So, thanks for proving my points further.

Ah, no, that isn't what happened. Crystal didn't kill Haley because she split town and ran off with a bunch of High-Level adventures, at the time known as the Order of the Stick. As Hank warned her, Bozzok was sending Crystal after her within the hour. That's why she was in such a rush to join Roy's team.


Just because you are misquoting characters and jumping to wrong interpretations of their words, doesn't means you are right.

Who says my interpretations are wrong. Their mine. That's like telling someone else their imagination is wrong because you don't agree with it.


Bozzok made the point straight: He wants to kill Haley because she has been robbing in his city without the Guild's approval. The XP are just a collateral benefit.

Bozzok doesn't executes people who leaves the Guild for the XP. He executes them because, as he explicitly said, his bussines relies on exclusivity. The XP are just a secondary benefit. He would execute quitters anyway even if no XP were gained. If you negotiate with him and not only revoke your quit, n offer to pay the Guild's cut on everything you have looted since, and also make up a good cover story that will make the Guild appear as stronger, then Bozzok will not refuse for some XP.

I mean, it's like if, when the OOTS finally faces Xykon, after a long and tiresome battle, Roy says "let's kill him already and split the XP" and you interpret that everything the OOTS has done was just for XP, and not to save the world and make daddy proud. Ridiculous.

It seems to me you're misconstruing what I said. Again. Haley told Bozzok, during their fight, which I even quoted and gave you a link to, asking him why he doesn't let ex-members leave. This is not only a question, it is also an allusion to a wish of Haley's to leave in peace, or at least I see it that way. Clearly you don't.

Bozzok also states that there are other benefits to executing members who leave the Guild, one of which is XP. Thus, one of the reasons he doesn't want Haley to survive is so he can get XP. It was an example of one of Bozzok's reasons for executing Haley, which he always intended to do. I don't see how I could have made that any more clear, yet you didn't get it when I said it the first time around. Ridiculous.

[Bulldog Psion]

Translation: No, you can't provide any single panel in which Hank sees Belkar, his work, or mades any reference to it.

If anything, Hank seems too concentrated in shacking the magic items out of Celia to actually care about what's happening in the house anymore.


Hank would have to be blind to avoid seeing all the corpses, not to mention Haley slaughtering the guild members a few feet away with her bow. Since she had been down and out until Belkar rescued her, I believe this counts as seeing Belkar's "work."

I find it difficult to think he would have negotiated if he thought the Thieves' Guild was going to win. Just because he didn't run around screaming with wide, panicky eyes doesn't mean he was totally ignorant of the fact that they were having their collective posteriors handed to them by somebody. Haley, Belkar, Belkar & Haley -- regardless, he knew they were getting squashed. And we know that Belkar caused that situation, regardless of Hank's exact information.

So, I would argue that the actions of Belkar, directly or indirectly, prompted Hank to be more ready for negotiations than otherwise.

[Nilehus]

Spoilers for DSTP:

Weren't Bozzok and Crystal planning on murdering Haley despite the truce? I could swear I remember reading that in the book. They were never going to let her go.

[The Pilgrim]

Yes, he was referring to the Guild. The goal of the Guild's presence at Pete's house was to kill Haley and her companions, since she committed a thievery not sanctioned by the Thieves Guild. Then, as Haley states about Hank near the beginning of the fight, He "generally doesn't get worked up over what amounts to a territorial dispute," (See Strip 604, panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html)). Hank wanted a reason to end the fighting as he says in Strip 620, panel 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0620.html), "You stop killing Guild members and we all help you get your leader back."

No.

The deal was "you declare that you never left the Guild, and pay half your loot to us". Of course, Hank was clever enough to not tell Haley the full of his agreement with Celia.


Perhaps I should be more clear. Without specific coordinates of where to find Haley, Celia, and whoever else, even if Durkon and Elan travel to Greysky they will have a Hell of a time actually finding the bodies of their friends, if they were killed during the fight.

You are being clear. It's just that you are wrong about what a party of high-level adventurers can or can't do.

For example, they can present themselves at the door of the Thieves' Guild and ask nicely. And then obliterate most of them and ask not-as-nicely. Because you are also wrong about how many friends of Haley were gonna make it to Greysky City. It's not two, it's three, and the third one is capable of leveling the whole Guild without making a sweat.


Ah, no, that isn't what happened. Crystal didn't kill Haley because she split town and ran off with a bunch of High-Level adventures, at the time known as the Order of the Stick.

Which is exactly what she told Bozzok she was going to do. Bozzok let her go as far as she quitted the City and never returned.


Bozzok also states that there are other benefits to executing members who leave the Guild, one of which is XP. Thus, one of the reasons he doesn't want Haley to survive is so he can get XP.

That's a logical falacy. He executes members who leave to enforce his business model. The XP is a side benefit, but in no way the reason.

[EmperorSarda]

You are being clear. It's just that you are wrong about what a party of high-level adventurers can or can't do.

For example, they can present themselves at the door of the Thieves' Guild and ask nicely. And then obliterate most of them and ask not-as-nicely.


That party of high level adventurers you're talking about? Would only consist of Elan and Durkon. Sure, Elan would be able to handle the lower level mooks just fine with puns; but Bozzok is at least an 18th level rogue (Because Haley was considered about 14th at the time, and he snuck attacked her); which means he deals 9d6 off a flank alone on both of them. Sure Durkon is powerful, but not powerful enough to avoid being flanked by either Bozzok or Crystal. (Who would have been 14th level herself.)

[Belril Duskwalk]

I think all of these arguments over how the battle with the Thieves Guild might have gone without Belkar critically ignores the question of whether it ever would have occurred. Consider that without Belkar, not only would there not have been a Mark of Justice incapacitated Belkar, but Roy might never have died. I mean, look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html). The only reason Roy was able to get into the position that got him killed, is because a certain Halfling with a Ring of Jumping loaned said ring to Roy, thus allowing Roy to get on the dragon in the first place. Had Belkar not been there to hold the Ring, who can say where the Ring would have been, if the Ring would have been remembered or if Roy would have been able to get it so easily. Consider that the prime reason Belkar offered the ring to Roy was so that Roy would try that Heroic Leap so that the Assassin would lose his bet against Belkar.

In short, had Belkar not been alive for the Battle of Azure City, Roy might have survived the Battle and the party might never have been Split in the first place.

[EmperorSarda]

Had Belkar not been there to hold the Ring, who can say where the Ring would have been, if the Ring would have been remembered or if Roy would have been able to get it so easily.


True. It all depends on the laws of Azure City, if the possessions of those killed belong to the state or to nearest king/affiliated party members.

[R-Group]

No.

The deal was "you declare that you never left the Guild, and pay half your loot to us". Of course, Hank was clever enough to not tell Haley the full of his agreement with Celia.

What Hank told Haley was completely true. He told Haley to stop killing, and that he would help her get Roy's body back. Everything he said happened. The part where Haley owes the Guild half her loot comes from the very act of rejoining the Guild. Half of all a Guild member's take goes to the Guild coffers, in return for the protection and living space it provides. If Haley "never left he Guild," then she owes them. That wasn't explicitly part of the deal at all, but in reality a consequence of the deal itself.

But perhaps even more important; you are completely blowing off the fact that I quoted Hank's words. I cited evidence. You cannot just declare that what Hank told Haley "didn't happen," or was just "wrong" because you disagree with it. Hank stated the deal, and she accepted. The finer points were between Celia and himself. Yes, Hank didn't tell Haley all the finer points, but the deal he told her was still valid and completely true.

I went to the effort to give a cited quote, and a linked piece of evidence in favor of my argument. Are you trying to tell me that the actual quote from the comic is untrue? How about you go and cite some evidence in defense of the argument you're making. As of yet you haven't done that.


You are being clear. It's just that you are wrong about what a party of high-level adventurers can or can't do.

For example, they can present themselves at the door of the Thieves' Guild and ask nicely. And then obliterate most of them and ask not-as-nicely. Because you are also wrong about how many friends of Haley were gonna make it to Greysky City. It's not two, it's three, and the third one is capable of leveling the whole Guild without making a sweat.

I must not have been being clear the second time either as you are still misinterpreting what I said. The issue isn't whether or not Elan, Durkon, or Vaarsuvius could kill every single thief in the city. They could do that without any difficultly, truly. The question is whether or not Elan, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, or all three of them together, could have found Haley's body to resurrect her in the case that she was killed by the Thieve's Guild. Without Belkar leaping in to save her life, she most assuredly would have perished. Durkon isn't high enough level to raise Haley from the dead if they cannot find her body. He doesn't know Miracle, Wish, True Resurrection, or any of those spells he would need to do so.

If Belkar was not present to save Haley's life, for whatever reason, the Guild would dispose of her body somewhere in Greysky City, and the surviving OOTS members would not have been able to find it, no matter how many thieves they killed. For all the OOTS members know, Haley's body could have been dumped in a river and have washed miles away by their arrival, be chopped up and put in meat pies on Fleet Street, buried under another man's tombstone, thrown into a furnace, or something just as grisly. How would Durkon and the rest find it then? That's the problem I'm talking about.

Hell, Durkon couldn't even use Locate Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm) to find her corpse, as the spell says, "Creatures cannot be found by this spell," and a dead creature is still a creature by game rules. They couldn't use Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm) either, as they would need to know the location to be targeted. How, pray tell, do you expect the potential of the high-level adventuring party to find her corpse, by any means other than by searching city streets unfamiliar to them?


Which is exactly what she told Bozzok she was going to do. Bozzok let her go as far as she quitted the City and never returned.

No. She told Bozzok she was leaving the Guild because: (I'm quoting On the Origin of PC's here, pull out your copy to page 11, and look at panels 3-4) "The only way to earn enough money to buy Daddy's freedom is by--quitting the Thieve's Guild as of right now." She quit to save her father's life in the Western Continent. Which as of Strip 609 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) we know was caused by Bozzok's direct intervention to have Ian Starshine sent off. She did not leave to join an Adventuring Party. That just didn't happen. As Hank warns Haley on page 12, panel 6 of On the Origin of PC's, "Bozzok may talk about letting you go, but he doesn't mean it. Everyone who's ever tried to get out has ended up deader than THACO." Bozzok was going to kill Haley form the start.

There, I cited evidence from the books in favor of my argument. Now its your turn to bring out some evidence in favor of your points.


That's a logical falacy. He executes members who leave to enforce his business model. The XP is a side benefit, but in no way the reason.

Tell me, which logical fallacy is it? A Post Hoc Argument? No. Circular Reasoning? No. Begging the Question? No, it isn't that either. I made no assumptions, I didn't misquote the text, in fact, I'm only guilty of stating the obvious. Bozzok said XP was a benefit of and a reason for killing members who try and leave the Guild. Thus, one benefit of, and reason for, killing members who try and leave the Guild, among however many other reasonings, is experience points. The point isn't that that was the only reason, but that it was one of them, and Bozzok admitted as much to Haley's face.

More and more I'm beginning to think that you're just skimming through my posts and saying whatever you like afterwards. Slow down a minute, go through the comic, and find some actual evidence to support your argument before whipping up a response dripping with unsupported falsitudes.

[The Pilgrim]

What Hank told Haley was completely true. He told Haley to stop killing, and that he would help her get Roy's body back. Everything he said happened. The part where Haley owes the Guild half her loot comes from the very act of rejoining the Guild. Half of all a Guild member's take goes to the Guild coffers, in return for the protection and living space it provides. If Haley "never left he Guild," then she owes them. That wasn't explicitly part of the deal at all, but in reality a consequence of the deal itself.

False. Celia was aware of the monetary terms, in fact she was the one who told Haley.



But perhaps even more important; you are completely blowing off the fact that I quoted Hank's words. I cited evidence.

No, you didn't quote any evidence.

You seem to think that you can hack quotes out of context, give them whatever meaning is convenient, and then present them as evidence.

It's not. It's just falacy after falacy.


How about you go and cite some evidence in defense of the argument you're making. As of yet you haven't done that.

You have yet not provided me with a single proof that Hank was aware of Belkar existence out there. The most you have provided is that Hank probably saw a lot of low-level thief corpses, then Bozzok, who is a melee-oriented rogue, charging a range-oriented rogue who is two levels below him.

He leaves his boss alone and takes Celia in private. Then proceeds to strike a favorable deal for the Fairy despite he having her completely at mercy. They return and then he sees his boss at the mercy of Haley and a halfling warrior. The tables have changed and of course Hank adapts his arguments to the new situation. But the importat point here is that the deal had already been signed by him and Celia, before Hank understands that the Guild has been defeated.

All of Hank's actions, both in the prequels and the online comic, prove him as a reasonable halfling. There is little argument against the fact that Celia could have negotiated with him. Reinstating Haley into de Guild removes the reason of the conflict, providing half her loot gives the Guild a better deal than just killing Haley.


The question is whether or not Elan, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, or all three of them together, could have found Haley's body to resurrect her in the case that she was killed by the Thieve's Guild.

And the answer is "yes, of course".

After all, the comic already stablishes that Bozzok and Hank can be reasonable when stomped down. So if they signed with Haley and Celia, why wouldn't them with Darth V after the spliced elf sets the Guild's headquarters on fire?


Bozzok was going to kill Haley form the start.

Then he would have attemped to do so, when Haley quitted. He did not.


Tell me, which logical fallacy is it?

Non Sequitur and Quoting out of Context come to my mind.


Bozzok said XP was a benefit of and a reason for killing members who try and leave the Guild.

No. Bozzok said XP was a side benefit from killing quitters. Never said that was the reason why he kills quitters.


More and more I'm beginning to think that you're just skimming through my posts and saying whatever you like afterwards. Slow down a minute, go through the comic, and find some actual evidence to support your argument before whipping up a response dripping with unsupported falsitudes.

Now I ask you to stop thinking that misquoting characters provides any proof to your claims, whatever they are.

- Would have Hank accepted a deal with Celia if the battle had gone the other way around? Evidence in the comic leads to YES.

- Had Bozzok a personal reason to kill Haley that would have prevented him to accept a lucrative deal? Evidencie in the comic leads to NO.

XP was not the reason why Bozzok kills quitters. The only character in the strip who has been shown to be so one-dimensional as to kill people merely for XP was Belkar.

[The Pilgrim]

That party of high level adventurers you're talking about?

Darth Vaarsuvius and her two not-so-imaginary friends.

[EmperorSarda]

Darth Vaarsuvius and her two not-so-imaginary friends.

Ah. Well then that does make a difference, a huge difference, if Darth V is in the city. Especially once he finds out that Haley might be dead.

[Nilehus]

- Had Bozzok a personal reason to kill Haley would have prevented him to accept a lucrative deal? Evidencie in the comic leads to NO.

You are right. He would accept the deal, then order Crystal to kill her secretly, exactly like he did in the book. He was never going to be satisfied with her walking away. Even after the truce, he and Crystal are still planning on killing her.

They come damn close, too. Unless, in your eyes, paralyzing someone, dropping them at the foot of a golem, and laughing how it's going to kill them doesn't count as attempted murder.

[R-Group]

False. Celia was aware of the monetary terms, in fact she was the one who told Haley.

And Haley wasn't aware at the time when Hank made a deal with her. As I was saying, there were two deals being made:

1. The agreement Hank and Celia made in the room with Pete's bows. They decided that Haley had never really left the Thieves Guild, and if that was the case, the thievery at Grubwiggler's was a sanctioned theft and Haley did not have to be killed.
2. The agreement Hank told Haley to get her not to kill Bozzok. He told Haley directly, "You stop killing thieves, we'll help you get your leader back."

I am not wrong at all in this situation. I made no mention of Celia at all in that block of text you took, which wasn't even the entirety of my argument. You just took the section you thought you could refute and left it at that.



No, you didn't quote any evidence.

You seem to think that you can hack quotes out of context, give them whatever meaning is convenient, and then present them as evidence.

It's not. It's just falacy after falacy.

So, as far as you are concerned, to actually quote a piece of evidence you are required to present a full contextual backing of every nicety in the situation? If that was the case, MLA Citation would become impossible. I did quote evidence. The only problem is you disagree with my analysis of said evidence. It doesn't by any means make the quote incorrect, but a disagreement over the analysis thereof. Get your terminology correct.


You have yet not provided me with a single proof that Hank was aware of Belkar existence out there. The most you have provided is that Hank probably saw a lot of low-level thief corpses, then Bozzok, who is a melee-oriented rogue, charging a range-oriented rogue who is two levels below him.

He leaves his boss alone and takes Celia in private. Then proceeds to strike a favorable deal for the Fairy despite he having her completely at mercy. They return and then he sees his boss at the mercy of Haley and a halfling warrior. The tables have changed and of course Hank adapts his arguments to the new situation. But the importat point here is that the deal had already been signed by him and Celia, before Hank understands that the Guild has been defeated.

You're still trying to tell me that Hank didn't know his underlings were getting killed all throughout the house? It doesn't matter whether he knew Belkar was present, only the carnage he left. The "lots of low-level corpses" you agree that Hank saw are the very reasons he was willing to bargain. The raid was becoming a ****-show.

Was he know for sure that Belkar was there killing thieves? No, it is quite possible he didn't. Does it matter at all? No, it doesn't. All he needed to see were corpses to realize the raid wasn't working and it was time to negotiate a way out.


All of Hank's actions, both in the prequels and the online comic, prove him as a reasonable halfling. There is little argument against the fact that Celia could have negotiated with him. Reinstating Haley into de Guild removes the reason of the conflict, providing half her loot gives the Guild a better deal than just killing Haley.

If Celia was killed by thieves, since Belkar wasn't there to kill them for her, how would she have negotiated? I tell you, she couldn't have.


And the answer is "yes, of course".

After all, the comic already stablishes that Bozzok and Hank can be reasonable when stomped down. So if they signed with Haley and Celia, why wouldn't them with Darth V after the spliced elf sets the Guild's headquarters on fire?

No. The answer is no, and you still misunderstood what I'm asking. I'll make this simple for you: How do the three PC's find Haley's corpse in Greysky City if she dies during the Theives Guild raid? The answer? They can't. I already linked pages to the SRD to divination magic that they readily know, but doesn't work in this situation. They will not be able to search an entire city for Haley's body by hand. And no, it doesn't matter whether they kill every thief in the city. If they dumped Haley's body in the river, or something just as careless, even torturing them will not garner the exact location of the corpse. Nothing will.

That, in and of itself, is more proof that you aren't reading my posts. I went to great lengths make my point clear last time around. In your response, you answer my conclusion with an entirely unrelated statement, and don't even bother to quote the whole thing:


I must not have been being clear the second time either as you are still misinterpreting what I said. The issue isn't whether or not Elan, Durkon, or Vaarsuvius could kill every single thief in the city. They could do that without any difficultly, truly. The question is whether or not Elan, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, or all three of them together, could have found Haley's body to resurrect her in the case that she was killed by the Thieve's Guild. Without Belkar leaping in to save her life, she most assuredly would have perished. Durkon isn't high enough level to raise Haley from the dead if they cannot find her body. He doesn't know Miracle, Wish, True Resurrection, or any of those spells he would need to do so.

If Belkar was not present to save Haley's life, for whatever reason, the Guild would dispose of her body somewhere in Greysky City, and the surviving OOTS members would not have been able to find it, no matter how many thieves they killed. For all the OOTS members know, Haley's body could have been dumped in a river and have washed miles away by their arrival, be chopped up and put in meat pies on Fleet Street, buried under another man's tombstone, thrown into a furnace, or something just as grisly. How would Durkon and the rest find it then? That's the problem I'm talking about.

Hell, Durkon couldn't even use Locate Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm) to find her corpse, as the spell says, "Creatures cannot be found by this spell," and a dead creature is still a creature by game rules. They couldn't use Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm) either, as they would need to know the location to be targeted. How, pray tell, do you expect the potential of the high-level adventuring party to find her corpse, by any means other than by searching city streets unfamiliar to them?

Moving on.


Then he would have attemped to do so, when Haley quitted. He did not.

He did attempt to kill Haley. He sent Crystal after her, as Hank said. No, it wasn't on panel. Yes, he did send her after her though. It still happened. Crystal either couldn't find Haley, since she skipped town, or because Haley beat her in a fight, or whatever. He did attempt to, he just didn't succeed.


Non Sequitur and Quoting out of Context come to my mind.

I didn't commit a Non Sequitur Argument. A Non Sequitur Logical fallacy is the formation of an argument where the the conclusion does not follow the premise. My statement was that, as Bozzok states that one of many, benefits to executing members who try and leave the Guild is rapid XP gain. Therefor, as he states, one, of many, benefits to killing members who try and leave the Guild is rapid XP gain. That's stating the obvious, but not a logical fallacy. You seem to think that I believe the only reason Bozzok is killing ex-members is XP. Never once have I said that.

In regards to Quoting out of Context, at least I've quoted evidence. I believe the meaning and context is one way, you believe another, that makes little difference. The quote itself is correct, and not a fallacy. We disagree over the rest. Perhaps you could provide some evidence yourself in favor of your argument instead of telling me that my evidence is "wrong". That would be a nice change of pace.


No. Bozzok said XP was a side benefit from killing quitters. Never said that was the reason why he kills quitters.

I addressed this above.


Now I ask you to stop thinking that misquoting characters provides any proof to your claims, whatever they are.

I'm not misquoting anything. I provide text straight from the document, address the context they way I understand it, and provide my analysis. As I explained before, misquotation is the act of writing down a quote incorrectly. For example, say person X said this: "I will save the world." A misquote of person X's statement would be: "I don't want to save the world." I'll say it once more. Get your terminology correct.


Would have Hank accepted a deal with Celia if the battle had gone the other way around? Evidence in the comic leads to YES.

No. You have provided no evidence in defense of your position.This is a logical fallacy, an Appeal to Ignorance. You believe that because I am wrong, you are correct. Explain that?


Had Bozzok a personal reason to kill Haley that would have prevented him to accept a lucrative deal? Evidencie in the comic leads to NO.

You're putting words in my mouth again. ONE OF SEVERAL REASONS for killing Haley WAS XP. IT WAS NOT THE ONLY REASON, but one of them nonetheless. If Belkar was not there to save Haley, Bozzok would have killed her because:

a) She committed a theft on Guild territory.
b) She had personally slighted Bozzok by telling him the safeties of the Guild were not helpful, needed, or even useful.
c) Crystal had always hated Haley, and wanted to kill her.
d) Rapid XP gain from killing a high-level character who left the Guild.

Even after the fact, during the raid on Grubwiggler's, after the truce, Bozzok still tried to kill Haley. He wanted her dead, and would not have cared however many Deals they made.


XP was not the reason why Bozzok kills quitters. The only character in the strip who has been shown to be so one-dimensional as to kill people merely for XP was Belkar.

I explained this all above. You want to prove that you're actually reading my entire posts? Why don't you actually Quote the whole of my posts and address each idea I present there, as I've been doing to yours. Until then, its obvious to me that you aren't actually reading, or even caring about, the rest of my arguments--and instead piecing together a response disregarding the evidence I present, the analysis I form, and so forth.

[The Pilgrim]

You are right. He would accept the deal, then order Crystal to kill her secretly, exactly like he did in the book. He was never going to be satisfied with her walking away. Even after the truce, he and Crystal are still planning on killing her.

They come damn close, too. Unless, in your eyes, paralyzing someone, dropping them at the foot of a golem, and laughing how it's going to kill them doesn't count as attempted murder.

Haven't read the bonus strips in DStP. What happens, exactly?


Ah. Well then that does make a difference, a huge difference, if Darth V is in the city. Especially once he finds out that Haley might be dead.

Yep. We could arge endlessy about if Durkon and Elan would suffice. But add Darth V to the mix, and the issue is clear.

[Kish]

Crystal tries to kill Haley repeatedly on the raid to retrieve Roy's body. A side conversation with Bozzok makes it clear that Bozzok wants Haley dead in a way that looks accidental enough not to restart hostilities with Belkar, and Crystal is skirting his wrath by being insufficiently subtle about it.

[EmperorSarda]

Crystal tries to kill Haley repeatedly on the raid to retrieve Roy's body. A side conversation with Bozzok makes it clear that Bozzok wants Haley dead in a way that looks accidental enough not to restart hostilities with Belkar, and Crystal is skirting his wrath by being insufficiently subtle about it.

Huh. Given that context, it makes Haley less cold-hearted to kill Crystal before teleporting out.

[The Pilgrim]

Crystal tries to kill Haley repeatedly on the raid to retrieve Roy's body. A side conversation with Bozzok makes it clear that Bozzok wants Haley dead in a way that looks accidental enough not to restart hostilities with Belkar, and Crystal is skirting his wrath by being insufficiently subtle about it.

Thank you very much.

Well, that makes my proposed scenario of a possible deal with the Guild somewhat less possible - and Bozzok a lot less clever than I credited him.

Looks like Darth V would have had to burn the Guild and plant some tentacles up his arse, then.


I think all of these arguments over how the battle with the Thieves Guild might have gone without Belkar critically ignores the question of whether it ever would have occurred.
(...)
In short, had Belkar not been alive for the Battle of Azure City, Roy might have survived the Battle and the party might never have been Split in the first place.

Well, if we are to be deterministic about how the story has run, as in "every scene happens the same except without Belkar", then yep, there are a lot of things that would have prevented Haley and Celia from reaching Greysky city. Mainly:

1) Without Belkar, Miko might have not snapped and the Battle might have runned a different way.

2) Even if Miko would have snapped anyway, Roy might have not got the Ring and jumped to his death.

3) Even if Roy had faced Xykon on solid ground and get killed, his corpse wouldn't have been so far away, and Haley might have been able to retrieve him in time to return with Elan

4) Even if Roy had faced Xykon on the dragon and his corpse had been so far away... without having to carry Belkar, Haley might have been able to sneak faster and reach the fleet on time.

5) Even if Haley gets marooned on Azure City and all that... if the Gnome had not got killed, he may have provided Haley and Celia with help to raise Roy.

6) Even if the Gnome had been useless, the Oracle wouldn't have got killed and would have pointed Haley and Celia to the nearest cleric, or given directions to Durkon.

And all that, assuming that the Order didn't recruit a replacement to fill Belkar's slot as soon as Belkar got killed. Which would mean that Haley would have had by his side a much useful ally than an unoptimized psychopat midget.

...


Of course, I'm more of the opinion that the important plot points in the story would have happened anyway and with the same outcome, with Belkar's role in them - if any - being fulfilled by other characters, other decissions, or other turns of events: Miko would have found another excuse to snap anyway, Roy would have jumped on Xykon's dragon when he was flying low, the Gnome wouldn't have existed since it's sole purpose in the story was to get slaughtered by Belkar and create in-party tension, the Oracle would have flip the finger on Haley because, say, he doesn't like Roy, and Haley and Celia would have found a way to trump the Guild in any other way.

[Nilehus]

Thank you very much.

Well, that makes my proposed scenario of a possible deal with the Guild somewhat less possible - and Bozzok a lot less clever than I credited him.

Yep. Clever enough to not want Belkar to kill another two dozen thieves, not really clever enough to realize Belkar doesn't really require a reason.


Which would mean that Haley would have had by his side a much useful ally than an unoptimized psychopat midget.

Hey now, let's not be unfair here.

He's a halfling, not a midget.:smalltongue:

[The Pilgrim]

Yep. Clever enough to not want Belkar to kill another two dozen thieves, not really clever enough to realize Belkar doesn't really require a reason.

Yep. And not clever enough to realize that he shouldn't dare his luck again. At least not when he just got his arse saved by an extremely luckly and timed intervention by Celia and Hank.


Hey now, let's not be unfair here.

He's a halfling, not a midget.:smalltongue:

Fair enough. :smalltongue:

[Bulldog Psion]

Huh. Given that context, it makes Haley less cold-hearted to kill Crystal before teleporting out.

Agreed. I think that was probably the only ham-handed sequence in the whole comic thus far. IMO, either Mr. Burlew should have included the golem retrieval raid online, or omitted the Crystal/Haley bit. As it was, it made Haley look like a cold-blooded murderess who just went in there and killed Crystal so she could loot her corpse, Belkar style, for no reason other than a teenage huff.

[EmperorSarda]

1) Without Belkar, Miko might have not snapped and the Battle might have runned a different way.



Might is a bit of an understatement. If we're arguing what might have happened had Miko killed Belkar, striking before V could get her with Scorching Ray, then the Order doesn't rush to his defense. Well, they would have rushed to attack her, but there is also the factor of is she would have Fallen for killing Belkar unarmed, and asking for it.

Most likely, the Order would attack her, or try to, whether she falls or not. If Miko Falls, then that raises the question of if Falling would take away from some of the anger, because she has to question herself now on why she fell for killing someone of Evil alignment.

However, lets she is angry and doesn't Fall. Then the scene overhearing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html)Shojo plays itself out the same way. She still overreacts, she still jumps to conclusions, Shojo dies. With Shojo dead, the nobles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) still flee the city, and things play out the same way, except without Belkar being an avatar of Death and Fire.

But... let's assume that Miko does fall in killing Belkar. Sure, she is angry at the Order. There is also a higher likelihood that she is arrested. Either way, she is not a paladin and has to earn redemption. It means she would not be used as a messenger to the North and that some other Paladin would be the messenger and thus would be the one warning Shojo of the army. Sure, they would catch Shojo saying essentially the same thing, but there would be less inclination to arrest Shojo as Belkar would not be in the room, and thus less of an argument for Shojo breaking laws (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html). It means that with news of Xykon, they most likely decide to put off the trial, because without Belkar there the only crime Shojo really is guilty of is conspiring to send the Order of the Stick to check on the other gates. Which I doubt the Magistrates would be involved in.
Shojo lives, the nobles are most likely kept in line for the battle, there is no conspiracy on who killed who either. The City is better defended. As Miko would only be in prison for some sort of murder or manslaughter charge, she would be given a deal (same as the other criminals that weren't guilty of treason) and would probably be fighting on the walls or front lines. No escape from prison, no hasty conclusions. It means the gate most likely does not explode.

[137beth]

Translation: No, you can't provide any single panel in which Hank sees Belkar, his work, or mades any reference to it.



Sure, except for the part where he totally did.

The first stripe proves exactly my point: Bozzok has no personal feud with Haley. It's business. He can't let Haley come and go at her please because it would undermine the Guild's business.
So...have you read the part in DstP where Bozzok tries to get Haley killed, even after they made a deal to bring her back in the guild? Was that "just business"?

[Nanako]

the simple answer is that belkar's entire fanbase sits beyond the fourth wall. Every character in the comic hates him, or at best is fairly neutral. nobody in the comic wants him resurrected, and those characters are the only ones with the power to do so.

[The Pilgrim]

But... let's assume that Miko does fall in killing Belkar. Sure, she is angry at the Order. There is also a higher likelihood that she is arrested. Either way, she is not a paladin and has to earn redemption. It means she would not be used as a messenger to the North and that some other Paladin would be the messenger and thus would be the one warning Shojo of the army.

That's actually a very interesting point.

Anyway, I think that the Belkar scene is more important to Miko's psychologic developement than most people credit it for.

Before that, Miko really did not held much grief over the Order: They were a bunch of delinquents who told her off, but she beat the crap out of them and forced her will on the lot, dragging them all in chains into Shojo's dungeons.

In the scene with Belkar, it's the first time in the comic (and probably in her life) that she can't get away with what she wants. She is humiliated by Belkar, then humiliated by the OOTS, and then humiliated by her very own Liege. She is dragged into a socially awkward situation, being already a socially awkward person. Who does she blame? The most convenient and easiest target: the OOTS.

Had everybody let her have her way on Belkar, she would have fallen, sure, but she couldn't hold grief over anyone else, except Belkar (who would be already dead) and herself.

(Though, it's Miko we are speaking about, the limits of her fantasy mind are unfathomable)