View Full Version : Hold on a second...
Vahir
2013-05-17, 02:50 PM
(And stop me if I'm just pointing out something that you all have already pointed out/refuted)
But doesn't this vision fulfill both Belkar's (Dying) prophecy and Elan's propechy (Happy ending)?
Sunken Valley
2013-05-17, 02:57 PM
Yes it does. It fulfills all the Oracular prophecies because the Order would see their fulfilment as a happy ending.
The only plot points this "ending" doesn't resolve are Tarquin and Malack being totally evil (which the characters haven't come to terms with), our knowledge that Durkon is a vampire (which the characters haven't come to terms with), the IFCC sub-plot (which only V knows about), the world within a world (which only V knows about), any subsequent realisation that the Crayon story is false in some way and of course, the MITD's true appearence.
sam79
2013-05-17, 03:02 PM
(And stop me if I'm just pointing out something that you all have already pointed out/refuted)
But doesn't this vision fulfill both Belkar's (Dying) prophecy and Elan's propechy (Happy ending)?
This has been discussed. At length. Indeed ad nauseum. Since 886. It is fair to say that views differ, but mine is that (up to) four people dreaming about a halfling's death or a happy outcome for a bard is not the same as these things actually happening in the 'real world'. So, no. Prophesies not fulfilled.
Oakianus
2013-05-17, 03:20 PM
Borrowed from the current comic discussion thread regarding the commentary in one of the books (War and XPs I believe):
The direct quote is "when the entire Order of the Stick saga is over, Elan will have a happy ending."
It's kinda hard to speculate past that unless Rich has decided to give us the biggest downer ending ever and this is the end of the entire Order of the Stick saga. As I'm relatively certain that an angry mob would find him if "And then they all died in an illusion" was the final step of the story and it wouldn't be all that interesting, I'm feeling pretty assured that this isn't Elan's happy ending.
Jimorian
2013-05-17, 03:43 PM
Actually, the grand plan all along was for Rich to subvert the typical "everything before was just a dream" trope by ending the story with a dream instead. So this is it, people, after a couple more strips to flesh out the rest of the illusion, OOTS is over for ever and ever.
Sylthia
2013-05-17, 03:48 PM
Actually, the grand plan all along was for Rich to subvert the typical "everything before was just a dream" trope by ending the story with a dream instead. So this is it, people, after a couple more strips to flesh out the rest of the illusion, OOTS is over for ever and ever.
That would be an ultimate Shaggy Dog ending. It would spawn multiple variant fan endings in protest if it did happen.
Osiris
2013-05-17, 03:51 PM
Will the comic end, basically, the plot never finishing, instead just sending out strips like strip 888? That would suck! :smallfurious: ragequit!
Hope it doesn't end. Maybe, Durkon breaks free and raises belkar OK no he doesn't, but he dispels the runes, they kill Xykon and Tarquin, LG defeated,then the happy ending starts. :smallsmile: But how's this going to happen? Will the next plot turn be focused on Durkon? :durkon:
Olinser
2013-05-17, 04:16 PM
(And stop me if I'm just pointing out something that you all have already pointed out/refuted)
But doesn't this vision fulfill both Belkar's (Dying) prophecy and Elan's propechy (Happy ending)?
No, it doesn't. Belkar's prophecy said he would draw his last breath ever by the end of the year. Belkar is still breathing, that it totally and completely inarguable.
Elan's is only arguable if you somehow think that this is the end of the OOTS comic. This isn't an ending to ANYTHING, this is a drug-induced hallucination.
This doesn't fulfill either prophecy, and to try and claim it does is just ridiculous.
Man on Fire
2013-05-17, 05:13 PM
There is still Durkon's prophecy,
In order for this to fulfill the prophecy, Girard's illusion would have to be:
A) more powerful than Tiamat's ability to perceive the future; and
B) visible to the Oracle;
Or,
C) the Oracle lied.
The Oracle foresaw it. If this is what he foresaw, hat means he was able to look into the Windy Canyon ... something neither Durkon nor Zz'dtri could do, nor any diviner Penelope tried. The Oracle beat them all.
However, according to your theory, what the Oracle actually SAW was an epic illusion custom-designed for four people other than himself.
So: strong enough to penetrate the anti-scrying field; strong enough to see a dormant illusion meant for a different mind; strong enough to see an effect of the runes without being caught in their effect; but not strong enough to realize it was an illusion.
If you ask me, the more interesting question is, "Can the Oracle see anything that happens in the Valley?"
The power of the oracle includes but is not limited to know everything that is drawn or written in any strip even if rich hasn't drawn it yet.
We know the Oracle can't see everything. He was in the shower when visitors arrived. That's Rule of Funny, of course.
Blackmoor
2013-05-17, 07:47 PM
(And stop me if I'm just pointing out something that you all have already pointed out/refuted)
But doesn't this vision fulfill both Belkar's (Dying) prophecy and Elan's propechy (Happy ending)?
Nope. It's not a happy ending, because it's not the end of the story.
Rakoa
2013-05-17, 09:45 PM
Nope. It's not a happy ending, because it's not the end of the story.
There's no end, there's just the point where the storyteller stops talking.
Zmeoaice
2013-05-17, 09:47 PM
There's no end, there's just the point where the storyteller stops talking.
Well, if the storyteller stops here, then ze's a pretty crappy storyteller.
If you ask me, the more interesting question is, "Can the Oracle see anything that happens in the Valley?"
Well, the Oracle knew that Xykon would get within 1000 yards of Girard's Gate before he got to Kraagor's Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), so probably yes.
phantomreader42
2013-05-17, 10:16 PM
In order for this to fulfill the prophecy, Girard's illusion would have to be:
A) more powerful than Tiamat's ability to perceive the future; and
B) visible to the Oracle;
Or,
C) the Oracle lied.
The Oracle foresaw it. If this is what he foresaw, hat means he was able to look into the Windy Canyon ... something neither Durkon nor Zz'dtri could do, nor any diviner Penelope tried. The Oracle beat them all.
However, according to your theory, what the Oracle actually SAW was an epic illusion custom-designed for four people other than himself.
So: strong enough to penetrate the anti-scrying field; strong enough to see a dormant illusion meant for a different mind; strong enough to see an effect of the runes without being caught in their effect; but not strong enough to realize it was an illusion.
If you ask me, the more interesting question is, "Can the Oracle see anything that happens in the Valley?"
The Oracle told Elan the story would have a happy ending for him. If Elan perceives it as a happy ending, then it's a happy ending for him, though not necessarily for anyone else. Whether it's an illusion or not is irrelevant.
I don't think it's going to end this way, but it would fulfill Elan's prophecy. Not Belkar's, though.
Honestly, something like this should've been expected from an Epic Illusionist. In fact, maybe Elan realizing the dramatic appropriateness of it will be what wakes the Order up...
rodneyAnonymous
2013-05-17, 10:34 PM
The Oracle told Elan the story would have a happy ending for him. If Elan perceives it as a happy ending, then it's a happy ending for him, though not necessarily for anyone else. Whether it's an illusion or not is irrelevant.
No, because the story would have to end. Elan asked "Will this story have a happy ending?" and the answer was "Yes -- for you, at least." For the quoted interpretation to make sense, the question would have to be different. Elan perceiving this as a happy ending doesn't make it the end of the story. The Oracle did not tell Elan "the story would have a happy ending for him", that is a subtle change.
Sylthia
2013-05-17, 10:58 PM
The Oracle told Elan the story would have a happy ending for him. If Elan perceives it as a happy ending, then it's a happy ending for him, though not necessarily for anyone else. Whether it's an illusion or not is irrelevant.
I don't think it's going to end this way, but it would fulfill Elan's prophecy. Not Belkar's, though.
Honestly, something like this should've been expected from an Epic Illusionist. In fact, maybe Elan realizing the dramatic appropriateness of it will be what wakes the Order up...
Maybe Elan breaks the illusion when he realizes the story couldn't come to a conclusion at anything but the last gate.
brionl
2013-05-17, 10:59 PM
That would be an ultimate Shaggy Dog ending. It would spawn multiple variant fan endings in protest if it did happen.
It's the Wayne's World Ending.
I'm sure Mike Myers and Dana Carvey will be showing up any minute now.
:smallbiggrin:
Ghost Nappa
2013-05-17, 11:02 PM
Actually, the grand plan all along was for Rich to subvert the typical "everything before was just a dream" trope by ending the story with a dream instead. So this is it, people, after a couple more strips to flesh out the rest of the illusion, OOTS is over for ever and ever.
One giant plot hole though:
V is not in the illusion. He is still running around free. Ending the comic in the illusion would necessitate all four of them dying from the hypnosis leaving only V and the raven familiar to stop the end of the world.
Or for V to fall for the illusion too. Which doesn't seem like it's going to be a thing.
The Oracle told Elan the story would have a happy ending for him.
It still means the Oracle had the power to see into the Windy Valley (which no other known diviner can do), the power to see the runes, and the power to see what image they would produce for Elan and the others.
I'm not saying it's impossible; I'm saying, "Look at what the Oracle would have to be able to do, in order to foresee this."
The Extinguisher
2013-05-18, 12:03 AM
The Oracle just reads the book compilations. So he can see anything we can.
SSGoW
2013-05-18, 09:49 AM
In order for this to fulfill the prophecy, Girard's illusion would have to be:
A) more powerful than Tiamat's ability to perceive the future; and
B) visible to the Oracle;
Or,
C) the Oracle lied.
The Oracle foresaw it. If this is what he foresaw, hat means he was able to look into the Windy Canyon ... something neither Durkon nor Zz'dtri could do, nor any diviner Penelope tried. The Oracle beat them all.
However, according to your theory, what the Oracle actually SAW was an epic illusion custom-designed for four people other than himself.
So: strong enough to penetrate the anti-scrying field; strong enough to see a dormant illusion meant for a different mind; strong enough to see an effect of the runes without being caught in their effect; but not strong enough to realize it was an illusion.
If you ask me, the more interesting question is, "Can the Oracle see anything that happens in the Valley?"
Love it
Also perhaps the Oracle and Girard are both working for Tiamat? We saw that he is a direct decendant to dragons so it could make sense that he worshipped his "grandmother" and this is all a plot to mess with anyone gunning for the gates. Sure Tiamat can't get involved but Girard can.
Perhaps the Oracle throws some profecy at the adventurers and then the epic illusions make it come true and the adventurers are more apt to believe it... Perhaps hearing the prophecy is part of the epic spell...
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