3.5 Bard Math: Sublime Chord + Vestment of Legends = ?

[INoKnowNames]

Hi there! It's Math Time for Bakas!

... halfway tempted to link to Cirno's Perfect Math Class now...

That aside, I was hoping I could figure out something about a character I'm planning.


A sublime chord adds one-half her class level (rounded down) to her bard level to determine her number of daily uses of bardic music.


Her bard level is treated as five higher than it actually is for the purpose of determining the effects of her inspire courage, fascinate, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics abilities. This increase in effective level does not grant her any additional bardic music abilities or other class features.

Between these two, what with one boosting number of musics a little, and the other booting the effects of those musics, I figure that a Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 10 would end up having Bard 15 grade Bardic Music usage (notably Inspire Courage +3 and 4 effected by Inspire Greatness) and 15 music uses per day, but no new base Bard Songs beyond Inspire Greatness.

Am I misreading anything, or is this about right?

[Bakkan]

Looks right to me.

[Socratov]

yep, that's why people usually advance SC casting with Virtuoso (2 lvl dip into SC, 8 virtuoso boosting it and 2 virtuoso before taking SC). virtuoso does advance Bardic music as we know it and advances casting.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Personally, I prefer Beguiler 7/Prestige Bard 3/Sublime chord 1/Prestige Bard 9

You get: The Spellcasting of a level 8 Beguiler (4th level spells), with a Caster level of 10, ALL Bard Spells up to 4th level also CL 10 (Assuming you use Div, Ench or Ill spells) castable spontaneously, 9ths from the Wizard/Sorc list, all Bard abilities except Mass Suggestion and IC +4 and only two less uses of Bardic Music than a Bard 10/SC 10.

[INoKnowNames]

Looks right to me.

Epic.


yep, that's why people usually advance SC casting with Virtuoso (2 lvl dip into SC, 8 virtuoso boosting it and 2 virtuoso before taking SC). virtuoso does advance Bardic music as we know it and advances casting.

Even more Epic, to the point of making me want to change my build a bit.

However, I don't see why you'd take 2 levels of Virtuoso before Sublime Chord, given that, at least from my copy of Complete Adventurer, you'd lose out on a caster level of Sublime Chord if you did. The first dead level, I see, but not an additional before it.

I also don't see why you'd make it a 2 level Sublime Chord dip. Wouldn't 1 be enough to establish it's spell casting, allowing you to continue it with Sublime Chord 2 and up?

Basically, what does Bard-8/Virtuoso-2/SublimeChord-2/Virtuoso-8 get/do/is legal over Bard-9/Virtuoso-1/SublimeChord-1/Virtuoso-9?


Personally, I prefer Beguiler 7/Prestige Bard 3/Sublime chord 1/Prestige Bard 9

You get: The Spellcasting of a level 8 Beguiler (4th level spells), with a Caster level of 10, ALL Bard Spells up to 4th level also CL 10 (Assuming you use Div, Ench or Ill spells) castable spontaneously, 9ths from the Wizard/Sorc list, all Bard abilities except Mass Suggestion and IC +4 and only two less uses of Bardic Music than a Bard 10/SC 10.

I may be reading it wrong, but since:


Spellcasting

When a new prestige bard level is gained (except at 1st, 3rd, 7th, and 13th level), the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.

, as opposed to


Spells per Day/Spells Known: Beginning at 2nd level, a virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

, it seems like by taking Prestige Bard 2 before Sublime Chord, you only end up advancing Beguiler casting rather than Sublime Chord casting.

That aside (not really interested in continuing that thought anyway), IC's worth it enough to me to take Bard over Beguiler.

Speaking of which: an 18th/19th Level Bard with a Vest of Legends... gah, so close to being able to get another +1 to IC.... And since Virtuoso advances all Bardic Abilities, that means that a feat which adds +4 to your Bard Level (Capped by your Hit Dice) would be relatively useless, since only 2/1 levels don't also advance those abilities, right?

.... what if they used a Song of the Heart enhanced Inspire Greatness on themselves before using Inspire Courage?

[Socratov]

well, the second level of SC gives you a song boosting casterlevels in the party which your fellow caster will thank you for immensely. However, you don't want to lose virtuoso levels since virtuoso is plainly put: awesome. (and yes IIRC bard8/virtuosoX is legal entry) this way you get the most out of SC and virtuoso without losing the casterlevel on SC.

Oh, and the feat stacks with the vest of legends. See one as filling your hitdice with more bardsongs, and the vest as a supercharger (maybe netting in epic levels earlier boosts to IC, I still need to calculate this though). this way you get more and more.

and if you are going to optimise IC anyway, take DFI (on silverbrow human), get a masterwork alphorn (Song and silence I believe) increasing your to hit (and thus dfi dice) and effect range and get Harmony from SpC (+1 to IC) and get words of creation, trade your suggestion for Song of the heart (Ebberron campaignsetting) and fascination for healing hymn (complete divine). Congratulations, you are now the ultimate support bard :smallamused: (think Sona from LoL)

[INoKnowNames]

well, the second level of SC gives you a song boosting casterlevels in the party which your fellow caster will thank you for immensely.

While I feel like, even after a second reading, I should be able to see your point about it, I'm honestly still feeling rather apathetic to that ability. Though that's more because I'll be neglecting anything not named Inspire Courage when it comes to Bardic Music. It's sad how wasted the rest of those songs are on me.


However, you don't want to lose virtuoso levels since virtuoso is plainly put: awesome. (and yes IIRC bard8/virtuosoX is legal entry) this way you get the most out of SC and virtuoso without losing the casterlevel on SC.

Funny enough, since Virtuoso doesn't seem to advance Bardic Knowledge, I'm not quite as into it now. That's the only reason, though. It's odd. Virtuoso gives 6+ skill points as opposed to 4+ from Sublime Chord. However, Bardic Knack lets you focus exclusively on primary and synergy skills, while still giving you the ability to do other skills (and it's happened a heck of a lot). So for having less skills, Sublime Chord actually ends up being more skillful while still offering all the spells.


Oh, and the feat stacks with the vest of legends. See one as filling your hitdice with more bardsongs, and the vest as a supercharger (maybe netting in epic levels earlier boosts to IC, I still need to calculate this though). this way you get more and more.

I don't think it can hit effective Bard Level 26, since that's when the next level of IC comes in. I'd been expecting to use the vest to make up for the drops from Sublime Chord... but maybe with just a few levels of Virtuoso, a mostly Sublime Chord can maintain 9th Level Casting, Full Bardic Inspire Courage, and still get away with a lot of the skill points and Bardic Knack...


and if you are going to optimise IC anyway, take DFI (on silverbrow human), get a masterwork alphorn (Song and silence I believe) increasing your to hit (and thus dfi dice) and effect range and get Harmony from SpC (+1 to IC) and get words of creation, trade your suggestion for Song of the heart (Ebberron campaignsetting) and fascination for healing hymn (complete divine). Congratulations, you are now the ultimate support bard :smallamused: (think Sona from LoL)

Except for the horn (which I wanted to find a way to get the effects of but without, you know, using a horn. Clashes with the image I've got going a bit), and healing hymn for fascination (not much of a healer type), this was all pretty much given. Going for a two weapon fighting kinda path, for lots of damage on all my attacks.

[Socratov]

While I feel like, even after a second reading, I should be able to see your point about it, I'm honestly still feeling rather apathetic to that ability. Though that's more because I'll be neglecting anything not named Inspire Courage when it comes to Bardic Music. It's sad how wasted the rest of those songs are on me.

well, the casterlevel song is to casters what IC is to mundane


Funny enough, since Virtuoso doesn't seem to advance Bardic Knowledge, I'm not quite as into it now. That's the only reason, though. It's odd. Virtuoso gives 6+ skill points as opposed to 4+ from Sublime Chord. However, Bardic Knack lets you focus exclusively on primary and synergy skills, while still giving you the ability to do other skills (and it's happened a heck of a lot). So for having less skills, Sublime Chord actually ends up being more skillful while still offering all the spells.

true, bardic knowldege (and bardic knack as a result) don't advance in virtuoso, however, you get more skillpoints form virtuoso so you can actually pick those skills you need high and pick lots of them


I don't think it can hit effective Bard Level 26, since that's when the next level of IC comes in. I'd been expecting to use the vest to make up for the drops from Sublime Chord... but maybe with just a few levels of Virtuoso, a mostly Sublime Chord can maintain 9th Level Casting, Full Bardic Inspire Courage, and still get away with a lot of the skill points and Bardic Knack...

well, you get 2 from chaos music (advancing IC for SC with Chaos Music) and 5 from Vest of legends, so Yes, no reaching effective lvl 26 (though there must be a way to this, anyone oelse have an idea?) for IC. first epic level however, you get it. [quote]

Except for the horn (which I wanted to find a way to get the effects of but without, you know, using a horn. Clashes with the image I've got going a bit), and healing hymn for fascination (not much of a healer type), this was all pretty much given. Going for a two weapon fighting kinda path, for lots of damage on all my attacks.

But, htis is your chance to blow your own horn :smallfrown:

Anyway, if you really want to fight and do damage then you should look into snowflake wardance (the go to path for fighty bards)

[Draz74]

Funny enough, since Virtuoso doesn't seem to advance Bardic Knowledge, I'm not quite as into it now. That's the only reason, though. It's odd. Virtuoso gives 6+ skill points as opposed to 4+ from Sublime Chord. However, Bardic Knack lets you focus exclusively on primary and synergy skills, while still giving you the ability to do other skills (and it's happened a heck of a lot). So for having less skills, Sublime Chord actually ends up being more skillful while still offering all the spells.

Just pointing out: Advancing Bardic Knack through PrCs that advance Bardic Knowledge is a common and reasonable houserule, but it is a houserule.

[SiuiS]

Hi there! It's Math Time for Bakas!

... halfway tempted to link to Cirno's Perfect Math Class now...

That aside, I was hoping I could figure out something about a character I'm planning.

Between these two, what with one boosting number of musics a little, and the other booting the effects of those musics, I figure that a Bard 10 / Sublime Chord 10 would end up having Bard 15 grade Bardic Music usage (notably Inspire Courage +3 and 4 effected by Inspire Greatness) and 15 music uses per day, but no new base Bard Songs beyond Inspire Greatness.

Am I misreading anything, or is this about right?

no more avatar, Inkin?

Would the +5 to bard level add before or after the 1/2 bard level, thing? Hm.
Ah well, Not gonna play 3.5 anytime soon so atrophy shall set in, I suppose.

[INoKnowNames]

well, the casterlevel song is to casters what IC is to mundane

I guess I'll still have it as an option... not like it particularly matters to me at the moment; maybe I'll try it and find out later.


true, bardic knowldege (and bardic knack as a result) don't advance in virtuoso, however, you get more skillpoints form virtuoso so you can actually pick those skills you need high and pick lots of them

Again, the loss of Bardic Knowledge/knack actually hurts worse than about -18 skill points. 4+Int per level from that point covers the main skills, while enabling the side skills that come up rather frequently (like knowledges, move silently / hide, spot / search, and additional performs). Virtuoso, by virtue of losing Knack, may be able to keep buffing the main skills and enable 1-2 other skills to be advanced as well, but at the cost of reducing the ability to use the other auxiliary skills as well; a cost I'm not entirely sure I want to make.

On the other hand, with just enough levels, I can still get a decent level of Bardic Knack, and (between full Virtuoso Levels to it, .5 Sublime Chord Levels, +5 with a Vest of Legends and +4 with Chaos Music) full or near full Inspire Courage, while also gaining 9th Level Spells; a trade I would be foolish not to take...

Somewhere between only 1 Sublime Chord Level and 10 Sublime Chord Levels, there is just enough room for Virtuoso to get full Inspire Courage and still make it out with decent Bardic Knack... though, I wonder if there's other Bard Prestige Classes that could potentially advance them... If not, I need to get a Graphing Calculator and chart what it would take to get as close to max effective bard level (per hit dice) as possible...


well, you get 2 from chaos music (advancing IC for SC with Chaos Music) and 5 from Vest of legends, so Yes, no reaching effective lvl 26 (though there must be a way to this, anyone oelse have an idea?) for IC. first epic level however, you get it.

I'll be lucky if the game lasts until Epic, so I'll worry more about current levels.


But, htis is your chance to blow your own horn :smallfrown:

If I become a famous enough hero, people will do that for me. :smallamused:


Anyway, if you really want to fight and do damage then you should look into snowflake wardance (the go to path for fighty bards)

I tried that once. I actually hate getting Fatigued afterwards... besides, I'm rather full on feats anyway, and I figure Doubled Dragonfire Inspiration + Inspire Courage with (most of) the bells and whistles is good enough.


Just pointing out: Advancing Bardic Knack through PrCs that advance Bardic Knowledge is a common and reasonable houserule, but it is a houserule.

So we are aware.


no more avatar, Inkin?

I had 4 people confuse me for a furry. I'm still working on a new, but it's hard to do it in my condition still, and I'm too stubborn to have someone do it for me...